FE6 HM Tier List

[Anouleth]

Lilina's enemy phase is ridiculously poor compared to Dayan.

Against Wyverns in Chapter 21, I would say that they have pretty similar enemy phase. Oh, actually, Lilina can take one attack and OHKO the Wyvern back if it's unpromoted, so Lilina's enemy phase is in fact, slightly better.

Also, Lilina gets OHKO'd by many things and ORKO'd by many other things -- Lugh doesn't for a while, considering he's your best ranged chipper from the moment he joins and Lilina is... not.

Really? Lugh is likely only a point or two ahead in magic over Lilina. Lilina, however, has her instant Roy support and a far faster growth. In terms of damage, I don't see Lugh outdamaging Lilina until he gets over his poor AS base, which takes a while.

And to be honest, what's your point? Lilina isn't the best ranged chipper. Neither is Dayan your best mounted bow user, or your best mounted unit, or your best anything. Your argument seems to be that having an extra ranged unit is more desirable at the end of the game than the beginning: which is surely backwards since towards the end of the game your units are more capable and need the help of chip damage less, and also the presence of Warp staves.

Lugh has salvageable speed at the very least and better evasion than Lilina.

Lilina actually has very similar evasion to Lugh due to better luck, promotion gains and viable support options. Upon promotion, Lilina is only 4AVO behind Lugh, and any B support negates that advantage.

At least Dayan can survive enemy phase and kill on player phase -- Lilina can't even do that for the entire game.

Lilina is quite serviceable when it comes to killing Wyverns, actually. A level 10/1 Lilina OHKOes all Wyvern Riders in Chapter 13, and with a B Roy, she is not OHKOed in return (although she is still OHKOed by Silver Lance Paladins)

Oujay does sort of blow when he starts, and he doesn't do anything particularly useful whereas Dayan does some pretty useful things against pretty powerful enemies in Chapter 21.

I don't think ORKOing the toughest enemies in the map easily is mediocre, either.

Yet Lilina can do it with Forblaze.

Lilina's pretty subpar and terrible throughout the game, and while she may not be totally useless her contributions aren't anywhere near "killing Wyverns with a Silver Bow easily."

You keep on saying this, and I keep on pointing out that something like that isn't that amazing. Most S rank weapon users can also ORKO Wyverns, many can do it on enemy phase, and the other Nomads can do the same thing as well. Even Lilina is leaving them in the low teens in terms of HP, which isn't outrageously far behind Dayan. Assuming that by that point, she doesn't have Forblaze, in which case she OHKOes.

I think we're going around this the wrong way, anyway. Rather than continue with this seemingly fruitless comparison, it seems a lot easier just to compare Dayan to Geese and show that Dayan doesn't deserve to be in Lower Mid. Level 20/1 Geese is doing exactly the same supposedly "amazing" thing that Dayan does: OHKOes Wyvern Lords. Except that he also does it on enemy phase, and is damn near indestructible due to peakwalk. And has a full 10 chapters of existing.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

That means Karel has a 30% chance of growing the necessary Strength to ORKO and if not, then he's only 2 points shy of the kill... which is actually pretty nice.

Against Wyverns in Chapter 21, I would say that they have pretty similar enemy phase. Oh, actually, Lilina can take one attack and OHKO the Wyvern back if it's unpromoted, so Lilina's enemy phase is in fact, slightly better.

Since when is Lilina even hitting the level necessary to do that at that point? Where is this leveling up coming from for Lilina that will allow her to OHKO *and* survive the Wyverns?

Really? Lugh is likely only a point or two ahead in magic over Lilina. Lilina, however, has her instant Roy support and a far faster growth. In terms of damage, I don't see Lugh outdamaging Lilina until he gets over his poor AS base, which takes a while.

Her instant Roy support does nothing but give her like avoid and hit. Defense and Attack don't round up like they do in FE9. Lugh's still chipping better than Lilina in early chapters and his spped at least grows better than Lilina's -- it's just the fact that he has similar performance to Lilina except he's not nearly as terrible earlygame as Lilina is upon joining that she's doing terrible.

And to be honest, what's your point? Lilina isn't the best ranged chipper. Neither is Dayan your best mounted bow user, or your best mounted unit, or your best anything. Your argument seems to be that having an extra ranged unit is more desirable at the end of the game than the beginning: which is surely backwards since towards the end of the game your units are more capable and need the help of chip damage less, and also the presence of Warp staves.

Except that Lilina comes in completely unable to do much upon joining, whereas Dayan can instantly be used. An extra ranged unit is equally desirable towards the end because your units don't turn into Gods in this game, and you are also barraged by durable enemy units who can easily kill many of your units due to having pretty good offense and whatnot. This isn't like FE7, 8, 9, or 10 where you have a couple of godly units that just plow through the end of the game as they see fit.

Lilina actually has very similar evasion to Lugh due to better luck, promotion gains and viable support options. Upon promotion, Lilina is only 4AVO behind Lugh, and any B support negates that advantage.

A B support she can barely get since her fielding situation is iffy, especially compared to Lugh's. Not that Lugh's evasion is any better, Lugh is chipping better than your Archers between his join time and by the time Lilina comes by.

Lilina is quite serviceable when it comes to killing Wyverns, actually. A level 10/1 Lilina OHKOes all Wyvern Riders in Chapter 13, and with a B Roy, she is not OHKOed in return (although she is still OHKOed by Silver Lance Paladins)

Assuming she hits 10/1 by chapter 13. I doubt that's as likely as you seem to put it.

Oujay does sort of blow when he starts, and he doesn't do anything particularly useful whereas Dayan does some pretty useful things against pretty powerful enemies in Chapter 21.

I think Lilina should be > Oujay then.

Yet Lilina can do it with Forblaze.

20 uses of a tome you only have one of. Aircalibur is her best bet here because you can have multiple Aircaliburs.

You keep on saying this, and I keep on pointing out that something like that isn't that amazing. Most S rank weapon users can also ORKO Wyverns, many can do it on enemy phase, and the other Nomads can do the same thing as well. Even Lilina is leaving them in the low teens in terms of HP, which isn't outrageously far behind Dayan. Assuming that by that point, she doesn't have Forblaze, in which case she OHKOes.

S rank weapons are finite and you're not blowing all of them in Chapter 21 alone. You need to spread out to parts of Chapter 22, 23, and then you can blow through them completely in Chapter 24.

I think we're going around this the wrong way, anyway. Rather than continue with this seemingly fruitless comparison, it seems a lot easier just to compare Dayan to Geese and show that Dayan doesn't deserve to be in Lower Mid. Level 20/1 Geese is doing exactly the same supposedly "amazing" thing that Dayan does: OHKOes Wyvern Lords. Except that he also does it on enemy phase, and is damn near indestructible due to peakwalk. And has a full 10 chapters of existing.

A 20/1 Geese is not even that likely considering he joins as average or mediocre and sorta stays like that while still having the same hit issues throughout the game that an axe user faces. At any rate, the other point is that Dayan doesn't even need to be built up to do these things, whereas Geese and them do. Especially since this is Sacae rout we're talking about where he will end up fighting a bunch of nomadic troopers and Myrmidons/SMs v_v Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

That means Karel has a 30% chance of growing the necessary Strength to ORKO and if not, then he's only 2 points shy of the kill... which is actually pretty nice.

Or you could just give him an Energy Drop.

Since when is Lilina even hitting the level necessary to do that at that point? Where is this leveling up coming from for Lilina that will allow her to OHKO *and* survive the Wyverns?

A 20/1 Geese is not even that likely considering he joins as average or mediocre and sorta stays like that while still having the same hit issues throughout the game that an axe user faces. At any rate, the other point is that Dayan doesn't even need to be built up to do these things, whereas Geese and them do. Especially since this is Sacae rout we're talking about where he will end up fighting a bunch of nomadic troopers and Myrmidons/SMs v_v

So what is this then? Are you saying that we are never ever going to train anyone in Lower Mid or below? Because the levelling rate I'm talking about is not outrageously fast. Lilina needs to get 19 levels over the course of 19 chapters. Geese needs to get 10 levels in 16 chapters. If you are saying that even this conservative rate of exp gain is impossible, or that it's a negative against them, then we might as well shove every unpromoted unit on the tier list below Ward into Unused Tier.

Her instant Roy support does nothing but give her like avoid and hit. Defense and Attack don't round up like they do in FE9. Lugh's still chipping better than Lilina in early chapters and his spped at least grows better than Lilina's -- it's just the fact that he has similar performance to Lilina except he's not nearly as terrible earlygame as Lilina is upon joining that she's doing terrible.

C Fire/Light gives +1ATK/+5CRT/+5HIT/+2AVO. The point was that it closes the gap in attack power. In other words, Lugh needs to be level 9 in order to have any attack lead over Lilina, an attack lead that she quickly closes; and that's being generous, since Lugh may not even have the C Anima necessary to use Elfire, meaning that even a level 9 Lugh loses to Lilina in attack power and has half the growth.

So tell me; how am I wrong to say that Lugh is only better than Lilina if he digs himself out of his shitty speed base? And how is he ever going to do that if you think that a magic user should only gain one level per chapter?

An extra ranged unit is equally desirable towards the end because your units don't turn into Gods in this game, and you are also barraged by durable enemy units who can easily kill many of your units due to having pretty good offense and whatnot. This isn't like FE7, 8, 9, or 10 where you have a couple of godly units that just plow through the end of the game as they see fit.

You're cute, you know. Wyverns do not have good offense. They have an assload of attack and abysmal hit rates. It's true that some enemies do have good hit rates, like Nomads. However, they also have abysmal attack, someone like Lott just doesn't care because they 13HKO him or something silly. You're right, this game isn't like FE10. Enemies actually had passable hit rates in FE10. In FE10 avoid tanking was something that not many units could do.

A B support she can barely get since her fielding situation is iffy, especially compared to Lugh's. Not that Lugh's evasion is any better, Lugh is chipping better than your Archers between his join time and by the time Lilina comes by.

Am I supposed to be floored by Lugh outperforming Dorothy and Wolt in a whole 3 chapters (C7 is debatable).

Assuming she hits 10/1 by chapter 13. I doubt that's as likely as you seem to put it.

I think Lilina should be > Oujay then.

Typically, Unused Tiers are unordered, Raven. How can you rank characters

20 uses of a tome you only have one of. Aircalibur is her best bet here because you can have multiple Aircaliburs.

Lilina would need to kill basically every Wyvern Lord in Chapter 21 to run out of Forblaze uses.

S rank weapons are finite and you're not blowing all of them in Chapter 21 alone. You need to spread out to parts of Chapter 22, 23, and then you can blow through them completely in Chapter 24.

You could not blow all S Rank weapon uses in Chapter 21 unless you started wasting them on enemies other than Wyvern Lords.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

Lugh gets doubled and ORKOd by the nomads in C4, is borderline doubled by the nomads (50% chance of Spd assuming one level up) and doubled by all the Steel Sword Mercs in C5, and all the fighters OHKO him (all should have at least 20 Atk, most have 21). Lugh dying in one round definitely isn't an uncommon occurence. Granted, this happens less than it does with Lilina, but the point is that her durability shouldn't be horribly crippling by comparison.

I don't think Geese gaining 10 levels over 10 chapters (excluding the 4 gaidens or so in there even) is particularly unreasonable. And while Dayan doesn't need to be fielded in previous chapters to do what he does, he also doesn't help us at all when he's not around.

[Anouleth]

Lugh gets doubled and ORKOd by the nomads in C4, is borderline doubled by the nomads (50% chance of Spd assuming one level up) and doubled by all the Steel Sword Mercs in C5, and all the fighters OHKO him (all should have at least 20 Atk, most have 21). Lugh dying in one round definitely isn't an uncommon occurence. Granted, this happens less than it does with Lilina, but the point is that her durability shouldn't be horribly crippling by comparison.

The issue is more that Lilina gets OHKOed by Hand Axe Fighters... which really is a genuine concern since ordinarily she relies on not taking counters.

[Dark Sage]

So various the various discussions and potential discussions are:

Karel>at least Dorothy

Fa and Yodel's placements

Thief placements

Whether Ray should be a tier over Lilina

Stuff about Dayan

Niime>Cecilia or Cecilia>Niime

I think that's everything. I'll go bother the Colonel to pay attention to the list soon enough.

[-Cynthia-]

There's also the double Kleins and Sacae, Sue being above Oujay, and Ilia Zeiss moving up, probably above Garret or so.

[Anouleth]

I can't imagine Chad moving down. The amount of stuff he provides in earlygame is quite staggering. Without Chad, you have only 9000 gold to cover all expenditure from Chapter 1 to Chapter 10. Alone, he brings in up to 21200 gold.

Moreover, Chad also helps in the Chapter 14 Desert. That's Boots, Speedwings, Warp, and the Silver Card.

[Lord Raven]

So what is this then? Are you saying that we are never ever going to train anyone in Lower Mid or below? Because the levelling rate I'm talking about is not outrageously fast. Lilina needs to get 19 levels over the course of 19 chapters. Geese needs to get 10 levels in 16 chapters. If you are saying that even this conservative rate of exp gain is impossible, or that it's a negative against them, then we might as well shove every unpromoted unit on the tier list below Ward into Unused Tier.

Sorry I wasn't thinking.

I don't think a character like Ward should be higher than Geese and Lilina though -- Ward's offense never ever grows into any sort of powerhouse. You said yourself that Geese is ORKOing a bunch of Wyverns at 20/1. At least Lilina become something useful (OHKOing Wyverns and ORKO Wyverns, on top of powerful offense in Geese's case) because if Lugh is getting doubled so is Ward. And Ward's 1-2 range is *pretty* inaccurate.

C Fire/Light gives +1ATK/+5CRT/+5HIT/+2AVO. The point was that it closes the gap in attack power. In other words, Lugh needs to be level 9 in order to have any attack lead over Lilina, an attack lead that she quickly closes; and that's being generous, since Lugh may not even have the C Anima necessary to use Elfire, meaning that even a level 9 Lugh loses to Lilina in attack power and has half the growth.

I was thinking TelliusFE's support bonuses so I'm sorry for that. At any rate, why is the gap between Lugh and Lilina so high then? I was arguing on *that* basis.

You're cute, you know. Wyverns do not have good offense. They have an assload of attack and abysmal hit rates. It's true that some enemies do have good hit rates, like Nomads. However, they also have abysmal attack, someone like Lott just doesn't care because they 13HKO him or something silly. You're right, this game isn't like FE10. Enemies actually had passable hit rates in FE10. In FE10 avoid tanking was something that not many units could do.

Level 13 Lilina hits ~28 avoid at Level 13 in Chapter 13. Not much more than that if she's at a higher level; she is still getting OHKO'd eventually by a 50% hit on enemy phase.

Am I supposed to be floored by Lugh outperforming Dorothy and Wolt in a whole 3 chapters (C7 is debatable).

Not at all because Lugh is too damn high since all of that is the case.

Lilina would need to kill basically every Wyvern Lord in Chapter 21 to run out of Forblaze uses.

Doesn't mean she can abuse the hell out of it though, but I guess this argument should turn into "Dayan and Lilina should be bumped out of their tier placement, and while Geese should be above Dayan, he they all do not deserve to be below the likes of Ward and Oujay." on top of a gap closing between Lugh and Lilina. I think we should reformat some of the tiers first if I'm going to keep arguing about this... I still don't think Dayan should be that low because he's versatile enough to kill Wyverns and he can ferry Roy or something because of his 8 move (without having to waste a good offensive unit to do it).

[-Cynthia-]

Ward's earlygame is what has him where he is (he can ORKO soldiers and...innacurately try to hit other stuff). He's obviously terrible after C7 or so.

Oujay can at least double things semi reliably, which is more than anyone not named Sue in lower Mid can say.

[Dark Sage]

Ray should probably drop to Low Mid. He could still be above Ward, though I can see Ward>Ray>Oujay or possibly even lower.

Lilina might be able to rise as well, though only a little. Not sure though.

@Merc: The gap between Lilina and Lugh is large because 1)Lugh has forced chapters and has periods of usefulness before Lilina joins and 2)his issues are easier to fix than Lilina's. For example, Lugh can take the Angelic Robe in Chapter 4 to escape his OHKO woes in Chapter 5 and against the Steel Axers on the isles while increasing his ability to take EP exposure. It's not a highly contested resource either and you can buy a lot of them in chapter 16, so it's not a big deal if he takes one. Lugh can also take a wing if we're going to Ilia and can promote at level 16 and that solves his borderline doubling forever. He's not the best candidate of course and it is a highly contested item, but he does make some notable use of it. Lilina's durability issues are impossible to solve (if she's not OHKO'd she's almost always doubled, so Robe does jack) and has speed issues forever.

Lugh's not that hot himself but that large gap is justified.

[Lord Raven]

Just because you can double reliably doesn't meant you're doing fantastic damage. But his being a sword user against the Isles is a point in his favor, I'll give him that (though it should bump him higher shouldn't it...?)

Can't Lott ORKO Soldiers? In fact, can't just about anyone easily kill a Soldier (especially if an Archer chips them)... I'm pretty sure Alan and Lance are generally pretty good about killing Soldiers.

Finally, I don't see why Lugh kept being brought up in my Lilina arguments as someone that has *so* much durability issues without the angelic robe, as well as issues being doubled. Lilina is doing the same things as Dayan for longer but she not only has massive durability issues but she'll have issues making overall use of resources... whereas Dayan is versatile from the getgo. These arguments make no sense.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Sorry I wasn't thinking.

I don't think a character like Ward should be higher than Geese and Lilina though -- Ward's offense never ever grows into any sort of powerhouse. You said yourself that Geese is ORKOing a bunch of Wyverns at 20/1. At least Lilina become something useful (OHKOing Wyverns and ORKO Wyverns, on top of powerful offense in Geese's case) because if Lugh is getting doubled so is Ward. And Ward's 1-2 range is *pretty* inaccurate.

I'm not sure what exactly you expect from Ward, but he OHKOes Wyvern Lords with Armads just as well as Geese. Better, perhaps, because he also has access to attack-boosting supports. I suppose it depends on Geese's level, since a 20/6 Geese can double Wyvern Riders with a Killer Axe and have a good chance of killing them.

Certainly, Ward's 1-2 range is no worse than Geese'. It's better, even, since Ward can chip Wyverns with an accurate and powerful Iron Bow rather than a weaksauce Hand Axe. Ward is also strong enough to pull off feats such as 2HKOing Nomads with an Iron Bow, whereas Geese is reduced to chucking Hand Axes at them like a chump and Lilina can't really engage them on enemy phase.

I don't believe that I ever claimed that Lugh was getting doubled. Lugh often struggles to double himself, true, but I don't think that anything out of crazy-fast Valkyries or Swordmasters would double him. Maybe Mercenaries in earlygame, I guess.

I was thinking TelliusFE's support bonuses so I'm sorry for that. At any rate, why is the gap between Lugh and Lilina so high then? I was arguing on *that* basis.

It's a tier. Given that really, Lugh is probably better in the long run than Lilina because he doubles more reliably, and that he has earlygame chipping, a tier gap between them isn't out of the question.

You know, this has been argued before. The reason Lugh moved down from Upper Mid in the first place was I think, because of Lilina.

Level 13 Lilina hits ~28 avoid at Level 13 in Chapter 13. Not much more than that if she's at a higher level; she is still getting OHKO'd eventually by a 50% hit on enemy phase.

My point was more that Dayan's lategame chip damage is not as vital as you make it out... not that Lilina is herself durable. And in any case, I would argue for Lilina to receive an early promotion. Her growth rates are not really good enough to warrant holding back her movement and keeping her in the OHKOed zone.

Doesn't mean she can abuse the hell out of it though

Well, it means that on the occasions where we need her to kill a Wyvern Lord, she can do so. Most of the time, she will use Aircalibur. Certainly, she's not going to kill a lot of them, since she is locked to player phase against them, and sometimes she can afford to use Aircalibur instead of Forblaze (when the wyvern has been weakened). So I can't really imagine her using Forblaze more than 2 or 3 times.

I mean, surely being able to OHKO 20 tough dragon-type enemies is enough. Even if she had more uses, she probably wouldn't be able to make use of them.

, but I guess this argument should turn into "Dayan and Lilina should be bumped out of their tier placement, and while Geese should be above Dayan, he they all do not deserve to be below the likes of Ward and Oujay."

I would type up a response to this, but I really think it would be quicker just to link to this.

Oujay and Geese is a tougher comparison. Oujay reminds me of Edward or Lugh: chronically incapable of double any enemy that isn't weighed down. And 2HKOed by basically everything.

on top of a gap closing between Lugh and Lilina. I think we should reformat some of the tiers first if I'm going to keep arguing about this... I still don't think Dayan should be that low because he's versatile enough to kill Wyverns and he can ferry Roy or something because of his 8 move (without having to waste a good offensive unit to do it).

Yeah, I get it, Dayan is the bee's knees, scourge of Wyverns and father of Sothe's children.

[grandjackal]

If I may throw in my 2 cents here?

concerning Ward: Ward generally has no real use earlygame aside from choosing on if you wanna use him or Lott in the long run. It's hard to argue a case for Ward here when he's basically worse than Lott in most ways (better overall growths outside of Str, can do generally what Ward does anyways, actual speed base that isn't complete garbage). So then we use him, and realize that at level 10, he actually loses in everything aside form 1 HP and 2 Str to Geese's 3 Skl, Spd, 2 Lck and 3 Def, and the ran to use the Brave Axe, and thus closer to Silver access.

Imo though, they're both garbage.

Lou does indeed get doubled by mercs, but you'd have to be pretty careless for that to happen. Besides, mercs are hard to ORKO due to their spd and durability, so having an accurate form of good chip for them is nice to have. Early on, Lou's your only choice. Helps chip down soldiers so you don't take counters when you kill them, is one of the few ways of dealing with armors without having to resort to ridiculous things like silver weapons and saves uses on stuff like the Armorslayer to make them last longer, and is one of the few ways on dealing with the wyverns of chapter 7 at range. That's well enough to have Lou a tier above Lillina who can't respond to that at all, aside of instant C rank for that fresh new Elfire.

I would find early promo for Lillina to be questionable. Namely in what dowe define as early promo for her? Like, what level would we be assuming she's at by chapter Uhh...The desert chapter's end?

No thoughts on Dayan.

[GreatEclipse]

On the subject of Linina, she is 6/-- on my current ranked run with chapters 8x and 9 cleared a great deal slower than I could if Exp rank did not exist, so 10/1 by 13 does not look reasonable for this list. Her mobility and durability really get in the way of leveling her.

[dondon151]

Whether Ray should be a tier over Lilina

I am inclined to disagree on this based more on comparing Ray to Lugh: both are mediocre long term (though Lugh is probably better), and Lugh has earlygame maps, so I don't think they should be in the same tier.

Niime>Cecilia or Cecilia>Niime

Currently leaning towards the former, especially for Ilia route. It all depends on how much we want to value Warp in this list. If we consider warpskipping at all, then Niime is much better than Cecilia, but a lot of warpskipping strategies have low chances at success.

I can't imagine Chad moving down. The amount of stuff he provides in earlygame is quite staggering. Without Chad, you have only 9000 gold to cover all expenditure from Chapter 1 to Chapter 10. Alone, he brings in up to 21200 gold.

I can imagine bumping him down a tier, but no more. The chapter 3 chests are ignored in an efficient playthrough and the chapter 6 chests are generally limited to the right side of the map. Chad does get you a Red Gem in chapter 7, but the chests on that map are more easily obtained with a mounted unit using a newly bought Chest Key.

I suppose you can clock his 2000G, Goddess Icon, and Red Gem from chapters 6 and 7 as the equivalent of 2+ Boots and then add a Silver Lance on top of that. Not sure if that's upper mid or high tier material, though.

Can't Lott ORKO Soldiers? In fact, can't just about anyone easily kill a Soldier (especially if an Archer chips them)... I'm pretty sure Alan and Lance are generally pretty good about killing Soldiers.

Alan and Lance need like a Steel Lance or Gant Lance to even have a shot at ORKO soldiers. Lot also actually has slight trouble ORKOing soldiers because he needs to use a Steel Axe for most of them, which sinks his AS to 4 and renders him unable to double Iron Lance soldiers (even chapter 6 soldiers have at least 3 spd). It's not really a big deal, though.

[Anouleth]

On the subject of Linina, she is 6/-- on my current ranked run with chapters 8x and 9 cleared a great deal slower than I could if Exp rank did not exist, so 10/1 by 13 does not look reasonable for this list. Her mobility and durability really get in the way of leveling her.

If that's the case, then Lilina needs to go down to about the bottom of Low, below Dorothy. I mean, if she's going to enter combat less than 50 times in the Isles (due to beating every map in 7 or 8 turns), she wouldn't even be able to use Aircalibur. What's even the point? Dorothy doesn't get OHKOed, she has effective damage against fliers, and she has free use in Chapter 6. As well as a promotion item with very little competition.

[dondon151]

I think part of the problem is that this list has a double standard based on the quality of the unit judged. Units that start out doing well are judged with the assumption of high efficiency; units that start out doing poorly and then grow to do well (well being up to interpretation) later on are judged with the assumption that they can somehow reach an unreasonably high level in the interim.

Also Lilina's damage against every other enemy type is generally higher and more accurate =P

[Anouleth]

I think part of the problem is that this list has a double standard based on the quality of the unit judged. Units that start out doing well are judged with the assumption of high efficiency; units that start out doing poorly and then grow to do well (well being up to interpretation) later on are judged with the assumption that they can somehow reach an unreasonably high level in the interim.

Well, that depends on your definition of unreasonable, but I think that it's clear that 1.5 levels per chapter is too high to expect from a chip damage unit, especially when they really are "chipping" away at enemies.

Also Lilina's damage against every other enemy type is generally higher and more accurate =P

Lilina cannot even attack some enemies like Hand Axe Fighters since they OHKO her in return. Dorothy doubles some slower enemy types that Lilina doesn't, as well. Also, Dorothy has better offense against magic users.

And even if those advantages don't outweigh Dorothy's advantages, I think that it's competitive enough that they should at least be adjacent.

[dondon151]

Well, that depends on your definition of unreasonable, but I think that it's clear that 1.5 levels per chapter is too high to expect from a chip damage unit, especially when they really are "chipping" away at enemies.

At the same time, though, these units are not significantly helping complete the chapter objective anyway, and for most of the map they can go off training against other enemies.

[Anouleth]

At the same time, though, these units are not significantly helping complete the chapter objective anyway, and for most of the map they can go off training against other enemies.

Sometimes, that's not enough. In order to hit B Rank Anima by the time we reach Chapter 13, Lilina would need to attack 50 times in Chapters 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, and 12. And how many turns is that? 50-60? She needs to attack virtually every turn... and there are many maps where there just aren't enemies around for her to chip every turn. Or maybe there are, and she can't because she might die.

[dondon151]

That's implying that she doesn't ever get kills, though, which is unreasonable. 40 attacks (assuming 10 of them are kills) is probably still a stretch by chapter 13, but who said that she had to be able to use Aircalibur by chapter 13?

[Dark Sage]

I can imagine bumping him down a tier, but no more. The chapter 3 chests are ignored in an efficient playthrough and the chapter 6 chests are generally limited to the right side of the map. Chad does get you a Red Gem in chapter 7, but the chests on that map are more easily obtained with a mounted unit using a newly bought Chest Key.

I suppose you can clock his 2000G, Goddess Icon, and Red Gem from chapters 6 and 7 as the equivalent of 2+ Boots and then add a Silver Lance on top of that. Not sure if that's upper mid or high tier material, though.

Wouldn't the Halberd help with efficiency though? In Chapter 4 at least? It can OHKO pretty much all the cavaliers on the map and while it's hit is certainly not the best, it might still be worth the risk of missing with it.

EDIT: Misread. I'm an idiot.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Clockwork Sage

[Anouleth]

That's implying that she doesn't ever get kills, though, which is unreasonable. 40 attacks (assuming 10 of them are kills) is probably still a stretch by chapter 13, but who said that she had to be able to use Aircalibur by chapter 13?

Even if she attacked 40 times and killed on ten of them, she doesn't reach level 10 (she gets to about level 8.33, assuming that every enemy she faces is level 10). That's why when GE said she wasn't likely to reach level 10, I said that she wouldn't be able to use aircalibur; the two kind of go hand in hand.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

Wouldn't the Halberd help with efficiency though? In Chapter 4 at least? It can OHKO pretty much all the cavaliers on the map and while it's hit is certainly not the best, it might still be worth the risk of missing with it.

You can do chapter 4 without the Halberd. It takes maybe 2-3 turns on top of a normal completion to get the Halberd in chapter 3, which it will not make up for in chapter 4. You lose the insurance of getting a quick OHKO, but at the same time, if you're planning on OHKOs to make your strategy work, you're set for failure half the time.

The only other instances I can think of where the Halberd would be remotely useful is in chapter 13 to ORKO cavs without using killer weapons (for units like Echidna who can't 2HKO with Killer Axe) and against Alucard in both versions of chapter 17 (better choice for weapon triangle defensively, but still loses 10 hit and ties MT with Horseslayer in both instances).

Edited September 9, 2011 by dondon151