FE6 HM Tier List

[GreatEclipse]

I think part of the problem is that this list has a double standard based on the quality of the unit judged. Units that start out doing well are judged with the assumption of high efficiency; units that start out doing poorly and then grow to do well (well being up to interpretation) later on are judged with the assumption that they can somehow reach an unreasonably high level in the interim.

I second this, and take it a step further by saying it even applies to Allen and Lance, who have a hard time staying viable on a run where Marcus and Zealot are allowed to kill things. Marcus, Rutger and Miredy are the real contenders for the very top.

[Dark Sage]

We seem to be taking a maximum efficiency route with the tier list.

Hmm....if this continues, Wendy>Treck might not be farfetched after all.

[Anouleth]

We seem to be taking a maximum efficiency route with the tier list.

Hmm....if this continues, Wendy>Treck might not be farfetched after all.

Don't be stupid. Wendy is equal to Treck since neither of them are ever used in max efficiency.

[grandjackal]

Regarding Lillina and this every enemy is level 10 deal, considering there are plenty of enemies already level 10 by chapter 9 or higher and only climbing from there on, I think that idea of not hitting level 10 by the desert chapter is farfetched. I bring up that chapter, as that's when you get the Guiding Ring.

Besides, when it comes to getting to Aircalibur first, who does she compete with? Lou starts a rank lower and has even less excuses to be nabbing kills early when he should be chipping. He probably has bigger rank problems on his hands. Then there's Cecilia..Who has better things to do.

Regarding the cavs and how those that say Marcus, Rutger and Miledy are the only ones truly top viable sounds appropriate to me. I'd still say Allen and Lance should be top of high since their transportation alone contributes a lot early on.

As for Treck and Wendy, Treck is the reason you're allowed to recruit Zealot on turn 2. This>Wendy's derpiness.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

Regarding Lillina and this every enemy is level 10 deal, considering there are plenty of enemies already level 10 by chapter 9 or higher and only climbing from there on, I think that idea of not hitting level 10 by the desert chapter is farfetched.

Actually, I made a mistake in the calculations; Lilina would be 9.33, so it might be reasonable for her to hit level 10. If the enemies she fights are level 12 instead of 10, that makes up the difference.

Besides, when it comes to getting to Aircalibur first, who does she compete with? Lou starts a rank lower and has even less excuses to be nabbing kills early when he should be chipping. He probably has bigger rank problems on his hands. Then there's Cecilia..Who has better things to do.

I don't think I've ever implied that Lilina couldn't take Aircalibur, so long as she has the rank for it. The question is whether she can keep up (with 6 move instead of 5) and OHKO Wyverns and 2HKO other unpromoted enemies and heal and not get OHKOed and all the other marvellous results she gets from a 10/1 promotion in Chapter 13, because something like that would make her better than Dorothy. However, if she doesn't have B Rank before promotion, I can't see her ever wielding Forblaze.

I don't get your point about Lugh. Lugh joins earlier, doubles more, and finishing kills has no effect on WEXP in this game.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Anouleth

[Radiant Dragon]

finishing kills has no effect on WEXP in this game.

I thought WEXP was doubled on a kill in this game, or was I wrong?

[Toothache]

Regular hits give 1 Wexp. Kills give 2.

[Radiant Dragon]

Okay, so I did remember correctly. I really should trust the main site more...

[Dark Sage]

You know what? Never mind about Ray dropping. Ray should be in his own God tier. You know why?

[dondon151]

Don't be stupid. Wendy is equal to Treck since neither of them are ever used in max efficiency.

Treck can see use in chapters 8, 8x, and 9. He's outclassed in terms of combat among units who replicate his role, but his role doesn't involve very much in the way of actually attacking things.

[Lord Raven]

My honest opinion is to revamp tier lists from the ground up and argue them more slowly. If we care enough to keep replying here then we obviously care enough to work hard on a better tier list- I have a hard time continuing an argument with Anouleth because of random double standards going on coupled with the most random issues that I have with other parts of the tier list. Just far too many to mention, and frankly knowing just why each unit matches up to each other unit without having to do some search bullshit (through 121 pages, and you can only view 8 pages at a time and search is SENSITIVE) would not make this a bad idea.

Of course we'll probably just take the lazy way out and not listen to me- after all, I'm more or less just radically vocal and only recently did I get back into the FE debating scene- but I feel like parts of this list are remnant from the ranked list (same with FE7 to some extent, and FE8/9 are quite a bit more solid in this regard because the standards haven't changed much whereas 10 is just a problematic game to tier in the first game) which gets in the way of effectively judging this game. Redefining tier list standards, especially for characters of a lower tier, is also a fantastic idea.

If not, a chapter-by-chapter tier list (lol though 30+ tier lists per game) would be a far more accurate gauge of how well units work out (or a points system based on the chapter-by-chapter lists).

edit: fuck im a horse

Edited September 10, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Dark Sage]

My honest opinion is to revamp tier lists from the ground up and argue them more slowly. If we care enough to keep replying here then we obviously care enough to work hard on a better tier list- I have a hard time continuing an argument with Anouleth because of random double standards going on coupled with the most random issues that I have with other parts of the tier list. Just far too many to mention, and frankly knowing just why each unit matches up to each other unit without having to do some search bullshit (through 121 pages, and you can only view 8 pages at a time and search is SENSITIVE) would not make this a bad idea.

Of course we'll probably just take the lazy way out and not listen to me- after all, I'm more or less just radically vocal and only recently did I get back into the FE debating scene- but I feel like parts of this list are remnant from the ranked list (same with FE7 to some extent, and FE8/9 are quite a bit more solid in this regard because the standards haven't changed much whereas 10 is just a problematic game to tier in the first game) which gets in the way of effectively judging this game. Redefining tier list standards, especially for characters of a lower tier, is also a fantastic idea.

If not, a chapter-by-chapter tier list (lol though 30+ tier lists per game) would be a far more accurate gauge of how well units work out (or a points system based on the chapter-by-chapter lists).

It would be helpful if you actually said what standards needed revamping. If you do have good ideas and Colonel M might implement them, he's going to have to know what exactly needs fixing.

Alternatively you could start your own like you did when you got disgruntled with the FE10 list.

@Other posters: Oh, and apologies for my previous post. It had nothing to add to the discussion and it was a poor excuse to use that awesome image.

[Anouleth]

I thought WEXP was doubled on a kill in this game, or was I wrong?

No, you're right, I remembered it wrong.

It would be helpful if you actually said what standards needed revamping. If you do have good ideas and Colonel M might implement them, he's going to have to know what exactly needs fixing.

I would imagine that Raven is objecting to this rule:

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements. This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team. I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them. A unit that is forced is considered a positive under most circumstances with the rare occassion that they make the Chapter(s) completely inefficient. For example, while Ward is considered a positive throughout his earlygame chapters due to what amount of damage counts, units such as Wendy can have profound negatives because they have major negatives that outweigh their minor positives. This is also to prevent auto-toping Roy due to not taking up a unit slot.

As a result, you could no longer assume that certain lower characters on the tier list would be trained, such as Lilina/Lugh/Ray, Geese, Oujay, or even Fir.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Anouleth

[GreatEclipse]

I do not think Fir should be put in the same category as those failures (At least for runs like this). I was able to get her to 13/1 by the end of chapter 12 on my efficiency run while beating the 0% turn counts of DD151 (Yes, I know he did another that went even faster, but 10 or lower in 9-12 for A route should not be easily topped), and she was really helpful at that. A 60+ chance to kill Hand Axe Fighters and Steel Bow Archers that many units cannot even double is excellent. If we are judging growth units on the assumption they are used the whole game, I can see myself reviving Fir > Lot.

As for the list as a whole, the placements seem to really underestimate just how fast you can clear this game.

[Anouleth]

I do not think Fir should be put in the same category as those failures (At least for runs like this). I was able to get her to 13/1 by the end of chapter 12 on my efficiency run while beating the 0% turn counts of DD151 (Yes, I know he did another that went even faster, but 10 or lower in 9-12 for A route should not be easily topped), and she was really helpful at that. A 60+ chance to kill Hand Axe Fighters and Steel Bow Archers that many units cannot even double is excellent. If we are judging growth units on the assumption they are used the whole game, I can see myself reviving Fir > Lot.

I was under the impression that Lot > Fir was because they were used for the entire game. After all, while Fir does do well in the Isles, she's not as great in Etruria or Ilia where Lance users dominate, or in Sacae where Bows dominate.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Anouleth

[GreatEclipse]

Fir is absolutely destroying him when it comes to actually killing things. I vaguely remember a Fir vs. Lot argument between Inui (Who was never good at arguing his case) and the guy who ran this list, but that was assuming levels, supports and weapon ranks Lot will never have when playing at a speed worthy of the name efficiency, and the assumption that Fir would need to wait until chapter 16 to promote because Dieck was somehow still really important.

Lot was 9/-- by chapter 8 on my current ranked run. He was not deployed in 8 and 8x, and would not have been able to get many kills even if he had. Chapters 2-4 were not played much differently than they would on efficiency, except he would not have access to the Halberd. He cannot expect much action in 5 no matter how you play it. Then in chapter 6 he received a large number of kills (Enough for him to use the Killer Axe next chapter), but they would almost all have gone to Marcus with the play style this list assumes, so 7/-- Lot with C Dieck and D Axes when she joins.

7/-- Lot (C Dieck)

Iron Axe: 16 ATK, 80 Hit, 8 AS | 32 HP, 7 DEF, 3 RES, 24 Avoid

Hand Axe: 15 ATK, 65 Hit

1/-- Fir

Iron Sword: 14 ATK, 111 Hit, 13 AS | 25 HP, 4 DEF, 2 RES, 29 Avoid

Steel Sword: 17 ATK, 96 Hit, 8 AS | 19 Avoid

Wo Dao: 17 ATK, 101 Hit, 46 Critical, 13 AS | 29 Avoid

Almost everything in the Isles that attacks at 1 range has an Axe or Sword, so you may as well add 1 ATK, 1 DEF, 10 Hit and 10 Avoid to Fir for now. Fir is so fast at base she can double 9 AS Hand Axe Fighters and Iron Bow Archers that even Marcus, Lance and Dieck fail on, and with really high Critical at that. Lot would appear to win durably on paper, but Steel Axe Fighters are so powerful both die in 2 hits anyway, only Fir can reliably dodge, and on Mercenaries Lot is doubled. Hand Axe I would care more about if Lot could reliably weaken (Never mind kill) with it, but with less than 50 displayed, why even bother?

15/1 Lot (B Dieck)

Killer Axe: 26 ATK, 94 Hit, 41 Critical, 13 AS | 47 HP, 14 DEF, 5 RES, 42 Avoid

Iron Bow: 21 ATK, 109 Hit, 11 Critical

13/1 Fir

Killing Edge: 24 ATK, 135 Hit, 70 Critical, 21 AS | 38 HP, 8 DEF, 5 RES, 53 Avoid

I could compare their offense vs. some enemies, including ones you would think Lot would do better on, but I doubt I need to. Fir vs. Echidna needs to be re-examined as well.

Edited September 10, 2011 by GreatEclipse

[Anouleth]

I'm perfectly happy to accept that Fir is going to gain experience faster than Lot in the Western Isles, but even so, giving her 12 levels in four chapters when Lot gains 12 levels in 11 chapters seems a bit much (especially when you consider that Fir isn't very good in Chapter 12).

[GreatEclipse]

Lot is not very good in any chapter except the one he joins. Fir has good player phase on the Fighters and Warrior, at least. Lot is really hard to level on non-lances because he always has around 60 hit on everything else save Swords, which shut him down completely. To put his offense in perspective, Barth has more ATK and Hit with Iron than he does in the first comparison, and while he loses 1/10 on all the Axes, he gains 2/20 on the Mercs and can drop to a Slim Lance for 10 more Hit when he really needs it. And even if I give Lot an extra 2 levels or something, it will not make any difference.

Edited September 10, 2011 by GreatEclipse

[Lord Raven]

Lott's durability ends up becoming far better than Fir's, though.

It would be helpful if you actually said what standards needed revamping. If you do have good ideas and Colonel M might implement them, he's going to have to know what exactly needs fixing.

See, I'm not sure *what* the standards are because the thing is that if we deploy a unit alongside our best units, then they end up falling behind obviously and they don't get as much EXP because your mounted units and whatnot are rushing ahead. We obviously can't take it slower for their sake, but that's kind of an example of tier lists needing more concrete definitions.

Alternatively you could start your own like you did when you got disgruntled with the FE10 list.

Not sure if you were trying to make fun of me but FE10's tier list was wonky to begin with simply because of random shit like chapter jumps and whatever, so my FE10 tier list idea was merely an alternate tier list idea. FE6 isn't as wonky so one single tier list is the only thing we need, and if I were to do chapter-by-chapter then I'd have to do it for all FE games- which I don't have time to do. Edited September 10, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Lot is not very good in any chapter except the one he joins. Fir has good player phase on the Fighters and Warrior, at least. Lot is really hard to level on non-lances because he always has around 60 hit on everything else save Swords, which shut him down completely. To put his offense in perspective, Barth has more ATK and Hit with Iron than he does in the first comparison, and while he loses 1/10 on all the Axes, he gains 2/20 on the Mercs and can drop to a Slim Lance for 10 more Hit when he really needs it. And even if I give Lot an extra 2 levels or something, it will not make any difference.

I understand, but such a large difference is still hard to swallow.

[dondon151]

I was able to get her to 13/1 by the end of chapter 12 on my efficiency run while beating the 0% turn counts of DD151 (Yes, I know he did another that went even faster, but 10 or lower in 9-12 for A route should not be easily topped),

Try 7/7/9/8 for those maps, and the last 3 are only as high as they are because I had to recruit Gonzales, Echidna, and Cath, respectively, who extend the chapters to that length. By the way, Fir is really bad in chapter 12 because she can't attack the enemies through the walls.

and the assumption that Fir would need to wait until chapter 16 to promote because Dieck was somehow still really important.

He is still really important; at least moreso than Fir is. But fine, promoting Fir in chapter 12 is not that much better than promoting her in chapter 16 because she's still fairly bad in 4 of the interim maps (12, 13, 14, 15).

Then in chapter 6 he received a large number of kills (Enough for him to use the Killer Axe next chapter), but they would almost all have gone to Marcus with the play style this list assumes, so 7/-- Lot with C Dieck and D Axes when she joins.

Double standard: Fir's kills will either not happen at all in the cases of chapters 9 and 10A or will go to units like Noah, Marcus, and Zealot because they reach the enemies faster. Resources that can go to Fir are also better used on Rutger instead. After Fir joins, Rutger gets essentially a prf 20-use, 8 MT, 75 hit, 40 crit weapon that is useful for its high KO rate against generic enemies. Why does she get to use it? Rutger's utility sharply drops off after the middle of the game, so he can really afford to go wild with the Wo Dao and use it all up before like, chapter 14x with no repercussions.

I got Fir exactly 1 kill in chapter 9, which was the mage near the gate, and then seized immediately afterwards. In chapter 10A, she can't milk the pirate reinforcements like we're used to assuming because only the turn 4 pirate from the fort can reach her before completing the chapter. She's terrible in 11A because mounted units need to rush south as soon as possible and there's nothing to do going east from the starting point other than breaking the wall and killing the boss. There is no way that you can sandbag (and I'm using the term loosely here) Lot and then turn around and say that Fir is getting 12 levels in 4 maps.

Fir vs. Echidna needs to be re-examined as well.

No way. I personally found Echidna to be a lot less usable than we give her credit for, especially after midgame, but that pretty much just goes to show you that a grounded infantry unit with even decent offense is not that great at that stage in the game. Fir is much worse when she:

1. requires a Hero Crest (i.e. costs the player the ability to buy 1.25 Boots in chapter 21)

2. has flat out worse parameters until promotion, including move

3. doesn't have axes

Not to mention, her offense is completely shafted without the Wo Dao that Rutger covets because she doesn't have the con for Steel Swords and doesn't have the rank for Killing Edges. I had Echidna at 4.25 by the end of the game, a testament to her lack of use; there's no way that Fir would justify more.

Edited September 10, 2011 by dondon151

[GreatEclipse]

I understand, but such a large difference is still hard to swallow.

I may be on paper, but not when you play the game. Fir is one of your best offensive units from the moment she joins (Lance needs to be 11/-- to match her STR and SPD, and she would still be better because doubling with 46 Critical is just too good) and on a good team Lot is possibly your worst, and when every turn matters that's just how your exp ends up being distributed.

Lott's durability ends up becoming far better than Fir's, though.

After promotion Fir has enough HP/DEF to avoid being 2HKOed and enough avoid to dodge tank on terrain, which is fine for a 6 move unit. Even infinite durability is worthless if you have nothing else to go with it.

[Anouleth]

I can't imagine that the player would skip Echidna. Gonzales and Cath seem eminently skippable, however.

[Colonel M]

To be fair you also went to Sacae, which completely limits Echinda's use to close to non-zero. While mounts are still important in Ilia, she at least has "some" combat parameters over there.

It's not saying much of course.

[dondon151]

I went to Ilia in the revised playthrough.