Personal Tier List

[Snowy_One]

Even if Mia only gets the SS for wyvern sniping, she'll be better at it than anyone who isn't Mist when not wrathed (plus it counters the constant complaint about Mia vs. Wyverns) and the best when wrathed. Not to mention Mia can also use the RS later on. I'll grant it's not exactly the *best* sword in the game, but with Vantage and wrath, she'll either critical with it, or likely heal enough to at least be out of danger when she uses it.

[Life]

Even if Mia only gets the SS for wyvern sniping, she'll be better at it than anyone who isn't Mist when not wrathed (plus it counters the constant complaint about Mia vs. Wyverns) and the best when wrathed. Not to mention Mia can also use the RS later on. I'll grant it's not exactly the *best* sword in the game, but with Vantage and wrath, she'll either critical with it, or likely heal enough to at least be out of danger when she uses it.

No Snowy.

She's better at it than anyone when you dump a ridiculous amount of resources into her. Why don't we count?

Wrath

Spirit Dust (both of the apparently)

Mage Band

Sonic Sword

Probably a forge too

Angelic Coat (you'd probably agree to this one as it allows Mia to have more of a leeway with Wrath)

Before I count the last item, I ask you. Is this really fair? Should Mia get all of this because... she apparently "uses" all of these items better than other people? Why aren't other people allowed this many resources?

[Snowy_One]

I don't really have to respond to this (for why, see final paragraph), but feel like doing so anyways.

Wrath

No other unit uses it as good as her. This has been confirmed multiple times. Check my tier list criteria. I do not consider it a disadvantage in any way for a unit to get the resource that they utilize the best. There is no doubt Mia uses wrath the best. Therefore, Mia can get wrath with no complaints or anything similar.

Spirit Dust (both of the apparently)

Mage Band

And... Mia can not have a band... Why again? I never said she was getting the dusts. N.E.V.E.R. Not even back on gamefaqs. The closest I ever got to saying anything even LIKE that was that, was if Ilyana got a speedwing and thusly took the mage band, or Tormod was fielded, Mia could still take the dusts to get +4 magic. As for why Mia gets the mage band, no one else in the game aside from Tormod will want it. Soren's MAG is already high, Ilyana wants the speedband, Tormod may want it if he's not getting the dusts, which he vastly prefers, Calill is too high, and Bastion is too high. That's it. That's everyone else who could possibly want the mage band and get some serious use out of it. Since only Tormod can even use it, why can't Mia have it again?

Sonic Sword

Yes. Mia is the second best user of the SS in the game aside from Mist when she is unwrathed. If someone is unwilling to put the work into Mist to have her net all of 12 kills before needing a hammerine/breaking or using her for only wyvern sniping, I would say Mia would be the person far more likely to get it.

Probably a forge too

1) Please check my critera in the OP.

On resources.

1) All characters may have an amount of Bexp/forges that is equal to any other member of the team. This is not to say that unit Y, who doesn't care about stats, is forced to take a set amount of Bexp, but rather unit X, who does need Bexp, can not take more than a equal amount to the other units on the team without it being favoritism.

Why can't Mia have a forge? Am I just going to make forged weapons and have them sit around in the convoy? Am I going to make a slew of forged handaxes for Boyd than turn around and complain when Mia asks for one forged sword? Will I just bypass the chance to make a forged weapon just because... ummmm... because?

Seriously. The only reason I can find that could possibly be acceptable to not give any one unit (not just Mia. Any unit at all) at least one forge throughout the entirety of the game is if I've decided to dump a load of forged handaxes/javlins on some other character and do nothing but fight with them equipped for some inane reason. So why can't Mia have a forge?

Angelic Coat (you'd probably agree to this one as it allows Mia to have more of a leeway with Wrath)

Assuming you are planning to prove that the coat is best spent on Mia, sure. I'll give it to her for comparisons. However, this is literally the first time I've talked about the coat ever in my entire debate history that I can recall, so up until now, I would assume my entire ranking of Mia is without the coat.

Either way, this hardly constitutes a 'ridiculous' amount of resources, especially by the tier standards listed here. A skill most people probably agree without question she is the best with, a band no one else even wants, dusts not even mentioned in the comparison, a forge that should be hers anyways and wasn't mentioned, and a robe that wasn't mentioned ever in any comparison. Three things I didn't mention her having in the comparison, one of which she should have anyways, a skill that would be favoritism for her not to have, a band no one else except one person even wants (and may not be used even if the person is fielded) and a weapon which it's currently being debated if she should have (and thusly can't be submitted as favoritism). Even by generous counts... that's one thing she's being given that she shouldn't already have according to list standards (the SS) with the rest being either conjecture on your part or her already getting it because she's the best with it.

But hey. I'm a fair guy. A simple stat comparison should seal away most of these arguments.

Tanith at base level has 10 MAG and no supports (having just joined). Mia at level 20/1 has a magic score of 6.2. Assuming she has had the mage band from more or less the level she joined, her 20/1 MAG with the band is an effective 8 without supports. Mia's Rhys support finishes around chapter 19, and her Ilyana B will be long done. Assuming Mia with a B Rhys and a B Ilyana, she gets +3 attack, making her magic score an effective... 11. Beating Tanith out. Even if Mia got screwed out of a stat (missed one too many levels with the band, was unlucky, w/e) and had 10 MAG to compete with Tanith, Mia would still have ~20% critical to compete with Tanith's ~5% (and Mist's ~0%) and on average, would get that missed stat back at her next levelup anyways (as well as having a A Rhys by the next chapter). This means that, effectively, Mia just using the mage band is better than Tanith. Even if you argued that Tanith *might* take the dusts, I could argue whatever argument that is exactly the same way, except in Mia's favor.

However, none of the above most matters because...

Even if Mia only gets the SS for wyvern sniping, she'll be better at it than anyone who isn't Mist when not wrathed (plus it counters the constant complaint about Mia vs. Wyverns) and the best when wrathed. Not to mention Mia can also use the RS later on. I'll grant it's not exactly the *best* sword in the game, but with Vantage and wrath, she'll either critical with it, or likely heal enough to at least be out of danger when she uses it.

I already said that Mia was doing this 'non-wrathed'. She may have had any amount of resources or lacked any amount. She may have leveled up to 20/1 using nothing but slim blades, left over iron weapons, and the RNG Goddesses good luck on her combat numbers. So long as Mia gets either the mage band or one dust, she will be superior to Tanith at the instant she joins (and I doubt you will let the sword sit around long enough for Tanith's 5% higher growth rate to give her back the lead)

In other words, you counted something that wasn't said. I believe this is what is considered to be a full and proper strawman argument.

[Life]

Snowy, what you're doing is taking a mediocre unit, giving them a giant amount of resources which you claim is reasonable for whatever reason and then saying "Look! X unit is great!". I can do this too.

Gatrie + Boots + Knight Ward + Talisman/Speedwing + Forged Iron Sword = Great unit.

Boots: Obvious reason. Gatrie has 5 move unpromoted. His only real competition in the "make or break" category is Brom and statistically, he's much better than Brom with way better growth rates. Reyson doesn't lose any value by not getting the Boots. Gatrie does by always having 5 move. Any other characters who deserve the boots over one of the Knights?

Knight Ward: Again, obvious reason. If you give him the KW, Gatrie suddenly has a Spd growth rate that is equal to Ike. And Ike maxes his Spd by the end of the game so that's saying something. If he holds it for 66% of his levels, Gatrie ends up with 4 more Spd than he'd have at 20/20 w/o the Knight Ward. That means that enemies need 22~23 AS to double him and Gatrie gets doubled by a grand total of... 2 enemies in the Endgame instead of every enemy but 1 Halberdier, the Wyvern Lords, Sage, Bishop and Generals. Again, he needs it more than others. Avoiding getting doubled > doubling enemies.

Talisman: Helps with his low Res. His Res is lower than everyone else so why shouldn't he get it?

Speedwing: Helps his Spd. Assuming less than a 66% level use of the KW, a Speedwing helps the Spd problem on the spot.

Forged Iron Sword: Accurate weapon that now does some damage. Why shouldn't he get a forge?

If Mia up with even more resources if the same amount, then Gatrie up too.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't really think wrath makes a huge difference for her ability to get the SS. I'm not about to rely on her either critting or dodging when she is being OHKOd at wrath health. There is a very small window at which she is in wrath health but is 2HKOd. Bigger for some enemies, smaller for others, of course. Like, enemies using hand axes.

Sure, she could have enough hp to be knocked down to wrath health in one hit, but even then, what if she dodges? Then she's not at wrath hp. The main use I could see would be if you are trying to split between using killing edge and SS. If she is at wrath hp and you can find a section with no 2 range to mess her up, then on player phase she could attack something at 2 range with SS and then you can hope for a crit. If she doesn't crit, no problem, she has a second shot (assuming she is attacking a 1 range enemy). Two hits at 80% means 96% chance of killing if she is 4HKOing (well, actually her crit would be in the low seventies, but it is still useful. Two swings at 70% is 91%). Of course, then she needs someone to trade with her to set the killing edge or Vague Katti to the top of her inventory. Still, it could be a way to make the +crit weapons last a bit longer. Also it could let her attack something that she can't 100% OHKO with killing edge or something. Like those wyverns that she can't OHKO with a killing edge. Then if that's the end of things she doesn't OHKO with killing edge crits, switch her back to the killing edge afterwards.

Snowy, what you're doing is taking a mediocre unit, giving them a giant amount of resources which you claim is reasonable for whatever reason and then saying "Look! X unit is great!". I can do this too.

I think you fail to understand the difference between "best use" and "gets something out of it".

Gatrie + Boots + Knight Ward + Talisman/Speedwing + Forged Iron Sword = Great unit.

Boots: Obvious reason. Gatrie has 5 move unpromoted. His only real competition in the "make or break" category is Brom and statistically, he's much better than Brom with way better growth rates. Reyson doesn't lose any value by not getting the Boots. Gatrie does by always having 5 move. Any other characters who deserve the boots over one of the Knights?

What do you mean Reyson loses nothing? Knight ring plus boots means that Reyson can vigor just about wherever the heck he wants and never fear enemies. Brom is better than Gatrie, too, because of the KW. Brom will consistently have at least 2 more speed, given their bases, and considering he has more levels available with KW as well it kinda hurts. Anyway, there are already two units better for the boots than Gatrie, and you can't really do that with Mia and wrath. Also, I could probably argue for Ilyana or Soren if I really wanted. Sure, their durability doesn't match, but you have plenty of units that can absord/dodge hits as it is. Another one doesn't matter. Soren will ORKO nearly everything, eventually.

Knight Ward: Again, obvious reason. If you give him the KW, Gatrie suddenly has a Spd growth rate that is equal to Ike. And Ike maxes his Spd by the end of the game so that's saying something. If he holds it for 66% of his levels, Gatrie ends up with 4 more Spd than he'd have at 20/20 w/o the Knight Ward. That means that enemies need 22~23 AS to double him and Gatrie gets doubled by a grand total of... 2 enemies in the Endgame instead of every enemy but 1 Halberdier, the Wyvern Lords, Sage, Bishop and Generals. Again, he needs it more than others. Avoiding getting doubled > doubling enemies.

Why wouldn't Gatrie have the KW for all his bexp levels and as many cexp levels as possible? I don't know about this list, but the proper fe9 list made by most of us here at SF pretty much assumes you will be trading around the KW to get as much +spd on as many of your units that can use it as possible. We throw around 60%, 70% and numbers like that. This isn't new. Still, unless he gets to doubling out of this, what's the diff? What, did you think we were assuming everything was doubling Gatrie?

Talisman: Helps with his low Res. His Res is lower than everyone else so why shouldn't he get it?

That's your argument for the talisman? There is nothing in it. I could argue it should go to a unit that already has decent but not great res. Think about it, if Gatrie is saving 2 hp per attack from the mages, what, maybe he goes from a 3HKO to a 4HKO if he's lucky? Another unit (like a peg or something) can go from 6HKO to 9HKO or something crazy like that. There isn't necessarily a reason to boost Gatrie's res to suck less when you can send units better able to attack mages after mages.

Speedwing: Helps his Spd. Assuming less than a 66% level use of the KW, a Speedwing helps the Spd problem on the spot.

Oh please. As if Boyd or Ilyana or Soren aren't better for a wing.

Forged Iron Sword: Accurate weapon that now does some damage. Why shouldn't he get a forge?

Um, Iron sword is a horrible idea. By the time Gatrie promotes your forged iron swords probably have less than 10 uses on them. Are you seriously telling me that you are better off forging a new iron sword when you can be forging hand axes and javelins and steel weapons?

Now, if you'd like to argue forged Iron Lance or forged Steel Lance or forged Javelin, we'll talk. But forged iron sword? Why?

If Mia up with even more resources if the same amount, then Gatrie up too.

This is the communist deal you are still living with. Unit A gets X, so unit B gets Y, regardless of the vast difference in opportunity cost between the two choices.

I'll make it simple: Not all resources are created equally. Not all units use resources equally. Mia gets stuff because she uses them better than anyone. Boyd can have a forge in chapter 8 because he uses it better than anyone. Etc etc. It isn't just about Mia. Titania can have a speedwing in RD (the 1-E one, since Haar gets the 2-3 one) because she uses it best. Just because Titania is getting a wing doesn't mean some scrub unit is automatically entitled to an energy drop or a draco or a seraph or something. That's outdated communist fire emblem. Resource distribution should be based on the comparison of benefit to opportunity cost, not on some strange notion that everyone gets something.

Giving Mia wrath does not entitle Gatrie to, say, boots, simply because you want to compare the two units and since Mia got something, Gatrie should get something too. If you can find something for which Gatrie actually is doritos, then by all means let him have it. Until then, not happening.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

I don't really have to respond to this...

...I believe this is what is considered to be a full and proper strawman argument.

I'm not quoting it all, since there's a lot of stuff there, but it's all moot. Against a flier, Tanith has 30 mt with the SS, targeting RES. This 2HKOes every Wyvern until Endgame, where it's kinda borderline. Still, if we give Tanith the Spirit Dust instead of Mia, she is 1-rounding every Wyvern in the game and all the Ravens and Hawks too. Tanith is also mobile enough to go and hunt down these fliers.

So while Mia has better mt with the Sonic Sword, it's largely overkill when Tanith can kill them cleanly anyway. You could make a case for Mia having a chance to crit and save a use of it, but Tanith has higher mobility, so it's easier for her to go kill the Wyverns.

And I think you are overestimating Mia's magic in comparison to the rest of the team. I can throw the Mage Band on Makalov for his first 15 levels and at the end, he has 8 magic. 28 mt vs Wyverns, 1-rounds with no trouble until C26, needs a Spirit Dust after that. Stefan has 8 base magic, he can do it fine until C26 too. Lucia has 12 base magic, so she's 1-rounding them all, forever.

[Snowy_One]

I think it's safe to assume, however, that even if we decide that the sword should only be used for wyvern sniping, unless we are playing extra caution, it won't ALWAYS be used on a wyvern. Simply put, **** happens and eventually some enemy will be in range or something similar and whoever is using the SS will be forced into a fight where they won't get whatever bonuses that allowed Tanith or anyone else to use the sword so well. Normally, this will be tink-level damage, but Mia is capable of pushing it into the 3HKO range. Since she has a 20% chance of killing the target, well... 20% chance > 0% chance. Plus, if she does drop below 50% health, that 20% chance jumps to a 70% chance. Not saying that we should have Mia running around with wrathed all the time. If we were to do that, we might as well give her scissors. Even if she manages one or two turns without getting hit while wrathed, unless she's wielding a KE/VK in a map full of 1-ranged units, something bad is bound to happen. But that 20%/70% critical rate against non-wyverns certainly does make her the best choice for the sword.

Even if somehow we were to only use the sword on wyverns, Mia would be in the top four units with the sword simply because of the critical rate. Crits usually equals less uses spent to kill a foe, and if there is one thing Mia can do it's crit.

[Snowy_One]

Actually, now that I think about it, what are the best uses for the items? All I seriously know is that Wrath is best spent on Mia, Vantage on Nephenee, and Stefan is the best choices for the icons. But what else? Would the robes really be a solid choice for Mia, or would Soren or Rhys get more out of them?

Edited March 18, 2010 by Snowy_One

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Vantage on Nephenee

Actually Vantage would work better with Boyd using a Brave Axe. His str is generally high enough to kill things in two hits anyways. With Vantage and a Brave Axe almost anything that's not 2 range or a sword-user or a General/AK has a pretty good chance of getting killed before they even get the chance to touch Boyd.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Joey

[Anouleth]

Brave Axe appears quite late, and it has limited uses. Other people want to use the Brave Axe as well, like Haar or Kieran or Largo, and generally they get as much use out of Brave/Vantage as Boyd does. In the case of Largo, quite a lot since his durability is pretty shaky and his high crit means he can use a Killer Axe when the Brave breaks.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Brave Axe appears quite late, and it has limited uses. Other people want to use the Brave Axe as well, like Haar or Kieran or Largo, and generally they get as much use out of Brave/Vantage as Boyd does. In the case of Largo, quite a lot since his durability is pretty shaky and his high crit means he can use a Killer Axe when the Brave breaks.

Yeah but Boyd's a better example due to the fact that he has more strength out of all the axe users in this game. Although Largo does have innate crit so you can say Largo's also a pretty good candidate.

And also, Hammerene staff can repair the Brave Axe.

[Zkirsche]

Vantage + Wrath means Neph can insta-blick pretty much everything at little risk. She can simply be thrown into a million enemies and simply laugh as they suicide into her. Boyd, on the other hand, can only do this with a brave axe, which others (e.g. Haar) might like as well, not to mention it only lasts 12 rounds and there are other brave weapons that I should be using the hammerne for. So even if I allocate the brave axe a hammerne use, it can still only kill 30 enemies. But with Neph, it coudl easily be 100+ enemies.

[Anouleth]

Vantage + Wrath means Neph can insta-blick pretty much everything at little risk. She can simply be thrown into a million enemies and simply laugh as they suicide into her. Boyd, on the other hand, can only do this with a brave axe, which others (e.g. Haar) might like as well, not to mention it only lasts 12 rounds and there are other brave weapons that I should be using the hammerne for. So even if I allocate the brave axe a hammerne use, it can still only kill 30 enemies. But with Neph, it coudl easily be 100+ enemies.

Nephenee won't always crit. Even with a Killer Lance (which is limited), she only has about 85% crit and won't counter-attack 2-range enemies. In addition, Killer Lance Neph won't 3HKO Wyvern Lords, Tigers or Generals, ever, and she struggles against other enemy types later on, such as Warriors and Cats.

In addition, the ability to 'be thrown into a million enemies and simply laugh as they suicide into her' is not that valuable. Enemy density is not so high that you need to conduct most or even a majority of your battles on enemy phase.

[Snowy_One]

There's no denying, though, that vantage is best spent on a unit with either wrath, adept, or guard. Very few units can 1HKO in this game and while giving it to a unit who can 3HKO at least somewhat reliably (preferably with most of the non-3HKO kills being 2HKO) may also be very useful, typically you will want to give vantage to whomever has those skills. I don't think anyone is gonna save vantage just so that someone with a brave weapon can use it, especially since brave weapons have similar problems to wrath, adept, and guard (mainly one ranged). The skills can break free of this problem at least for a time, though, with access to 1-2 ranged weapons like the spear or tomahawk or through forges. Not to mention that they will be available for far longer than the braves.

As for why I assume Neph to get it, well, there is no denying that wrath/vantage is one of, if not the, best skill combo's possible in the game without 'Resolve' being mentioned somewhere. Only vantage/adept and vantage/guard comes close from my understanding. Unless there is some mastery combo I don't know about.

On a related note: Gamble for Rolf. Between bows accuracy and his supports, he should get a fairly high hit rate when using it. IIRC, only Mia has a higher one with gamble active (maybe Stefan as well), so that should make him a fairly high choice at the least.