Maximum Efficiency Tier List

[Dat Nick]

Happy, CATS? Good. Now shut up.

-Top-

Merlinus

Marcus

Matthew

Hector

Raven

Priscilla

Serra

Ninian/Nils

Lowen

Sain

Kent

-High-

Florina

Oswin

Erk

Guy

Eliwood

Pent

Harken

Geitz

-Utility-

Legault

Dorcas

Lyn

Bartre

Rebecca

-Un-Optimal deployment-

Canas

Lucius

Dart

Hawkeye

Isadora

Fiora

Heath

Jaffar

Athos

Vaida

Louise

Nino

-Obsolete- (Never used/Not worth recruiting. There is no order within this tier, they are all equally useless)

Karla

Karel

Wallace

Renault

Wil

Rath

Farina

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[CATS]

I do wonder what exactly is the point of this topic. I thought I made it exceedingly clear that my own personal preference is not towards "maximum efficiency" nor did I have any particular wish to see a new tier list made. It seems rather childish of you to make an entire topic dedicated purely to taking a meaningless jab at me, and it certainly does not serve to make you any more convincing. I guess it's just another example of your chronic arrogance and inability to properly comprehend my posts.

Also take note that I will likely not respond to anything you say in reply to this post.

[Dat Nick]

I do wonder what exactly is the point of this topic.

You've been doing nothing except bitch about how all of us are too stupid to accept Maximum Efficiency. You wanted it, you got it. We aren't going to change the way we tier just because you feel it's loosely defined, so this is what you have to work with.

I'm not "taking a jab at you", I made this topic to...

A: Give you what you wanted

B: Direct your inane bollocks in a topic where it wouldn't be off subject, because you sent the FE7 tier list WAY off course when you already have your topic in the General FE Forum to complain

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd lock this topic if I didn't want to see if people would actually discuss where units should be placed under maximum efficiency. I'll wait and see if anyone actually chooses to discuss this.

[-Cynthia-]

I think it's a good idea to have this topic, it makes it very clear to certian individuals where the maximum efficiency list is and where it is not.

[chrysalid]

Here's a stab at precisely elucidating "the rule":

"What are the sum of the character's contributions to reducing the total turncount over the entire game?"

Also skip LHM because the the other tiers don't and LHM sucks

___

Random thoughts:

There needs to be a big "will not exist" tier. Canas is in a gaiden, you will clear 25 before Farina appears, etc.

I'd think getting the Geitz version of 24 while turn racing and skipping LHM and gaidens would be hell.

[Crysta]

There's different degrees of efficiency now?

I assume the other efficiency list is "Not Really The Maximum Efficiency List But Still Efficient" list?

[Dat Nick]

Also skip LHM because the the other tiers don't and LHM sucks

Of course not. This is a maximum efficiency tier list. Skipping LHM is not for the best of Maximum Efficiency.

Oh, and gaidens doesn't automatically mean they are all skipped, it depends on whether going to that gaiden will help or not. We do still need EXP and items, after all. Although I highly doubt Canas is worth the 5 turns recruiting him if we won't use him, and ideally we will not use him. Farina is already in Obsolete tier.

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[CATS]

There's different degrees of efficiency now?

I assume the other efficiency list is "Not Really The Maximum Efficiency List But Still Efficient" list?

Indeed, this is the case. Exactly what standards constitute "Not Really The Maximum Efficiency List But Still Efficient" has yet to be defined.

I think it's a good idea to have this topic, it makes it very clear to certian individuals where the maximum efficiency list is and where it is not.

Note that despite Portsman's misplaced attitude on the subject, I never argued in favor of adopting the "maximum efficiency" mindset in the FE7 list, not any time recently at least. I have not actually been insisting that Nino should be moved over Karla and such. I am well aware that these arguments will be rejected. My intention was simply to question the basis on which the majority consistently rejects such views.

Anyways, on to some relevant discussion, I guess. Marcus > Matthew; this isn't ranked, we don't need to hold onto our items for funds rank. You can sell everything you don't need and not care, so the extra amount of useful stuff that the silver card allows you to buy is much less. Most notably you'll never have money issues at all after Ch 23, since you can sell the ocean seal and get 25K after that. Even what extra stuff you can get thanks to the silver card still isn't worth much. You can get like 1 or 2 more physics or a few more killers. What Marcus brings to the table (enormous rape of the entire first half of the game) is much more valuable.

[frat_tastic]

If this is maximum efficiency, why is Nino not obsolete?

[Rodykitty]

I find it strange that this is only half a tier list, and the other half a partial listing of characters that are utility and non-optimal.

[chrysalid]

Of course not. This is a maximum efficiency tier list. Skipping LHM is not for the best of Maximum Efficiency.

Huh? It's obviously just an arbitrary choice, just like any other tier or ordering criteria. Start an alphabetical order tier, Bartre owns until Final.

If this is maximum efficiency, why is Nino not obsolete?

There needs to be a "will not be recruited/will not exist" tier. Nino would at least be above that, because she's in a chapter with 15 forced turns and she'll at least be recruited to get Jaffar, who is a star in a speed run. "Obsolete" isn't WNR/DNE, 'cause you have people like Wil in it who at least chip or meatshield in their introduction chapter.

I find it strange that this is only half a tier list, and the other half a partial listing of characters that are utility and non-optimal.

OP is obviously just trying to make a point, I don't think those tiers would survive any thought, much less the placement within them. But a speedrun tier list itself isn't any more boring than any other FE topic.

[Meteor]

Nino would at least be above that, because she's in a chapter with 15 forced turns and she'll at least be recruited to get Jaffar, who is a star in a speed run.

Recruiting Jaffar forces you to go to 28x. Does he make up for that somehow?

[Colonel M]

Nino for Obselete Tier IMO.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Dat Nick]

If this is maximum efficiency, why is Nino not obsolete?

28x (it hasn't been disproven that we're not going there)

getting that>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what morons we don't use do

Huh? It's obviously just an arbitrary choice, just like any other tier or ordering criteria.

This "arbitrary choice" does wonders towards efficiency. LHM is considered. Debate over.

"Obsolete" isn't WNR/DNE, 'cause you have people like Wil in it who at least chip or meatshield in their introduction chapter.

Wil's pretty useless in his join chapter, actually.

And there IS a does not exist tier. Obsolete. look at the list plz

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[chrysalid]

IIRC Jaffar shows up in Cog if you skip 28x

Edit - define maximum efficiency if it means more than turn count, if it doesn't please call it turn count instead of a nebulous word like efficiency

Edited March 11, 2010 by chrysalid

[Dat Nick]

it means we always deploy the most optimal team to achieve the lowest turncount possible. Always. For every chapter.

I myself will admit it's a fairly abstract concept that doesn't really say anything outside of "fuck the low tiers"

also, 28x is more about the fell contract than jaffar/other reasons to go to 28x, if we're going there to begin with. If we aren't going to 28x, Nino can be obsolete.

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[Rewjeo]

If units aren't optimal deployment, then they should be ranked according to what they do while they're forced. At least, that's how I understand it, and that would totally reshape this tier list.

[chrysalid]

it means we always deploy the most optimal team to achieve the lowest turncount possible. Always. For every chapter.

I myself will admit it's a fairly abstract concept that doesn't really say anything outside of "fuck the low tiers"

How is that abstract? It's close to concrete.

So are you speedrunning every chapter individually then rather than going for the lowest total? I.e. it may be that you can do chapter X in 10 turns instead of 11, but if you do it in 11 you get something (XP or whatever) that allows you to do chapter X+1 in 9 turns instead of 12, speedrunnning per-chapter you do X in 10, total you do it in 11.

I think a turn count tier list changes a lot more than fucking the "low tiers" (from the efficiency list). It also raises questions, like the fact that I really don't know which 24 you get. It's going to play much more like a 0% growths run where you race to prepromotes and toss your useless underleveled units constantly, maybe babying one or two for specific roles.

Edited March 11, 2010 by chrysalid

[Life]

Why's Farina obsolete?

25 is a mandatory chapter. Only takes 6 turns to recruit her and most people are done by 7 or 8. Funds doesn't matter in an efficiency run and Farina has flying utility which speeds up later chapters. So what's the problem?

[Dat Nick]

If units aren't optimal deployment, then they should be ranked according to what they do while they're forced.

That's what the Non-Optimal section is for. Or at least, intended to be for.

I think a turn count tier list

This isn't really a turn count tier list, though. It's just a tier list that always assumes that only the Top tier units are seriously played.

As for Farina, I want more opinions on the matter.

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[Life]

My big points for her are flying utility, good bases and growths and the fact that the 20k actually means nothing in this type of run. All we care about are low turn counts. By waiting 1~2 turns (max, I don't even wait because I recruit her about 2 turns before I finish the chapter) to recruit Farina, we can shave off multiple in the future thanks to her flying utility.

[Mekkah]

25 is a mandatory chapter. Only takes 6 turns to recruit her and most people are done by 7 or 8. Funds doesn't matter in an efficiency run and Farina has flying utility which speeds up later chapters. So what's the problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQaVFYNBlRg

Underleveled units doing this map in 3 turns.

[Anouleth]

My big points for her are flying utility, good bases and growths and the fact that the 20k actually means nothing in this type of run. All we care about are low turn counts. By waiting 1~2 turns (max, I don't even wait because I recruit her about 2 turns before I finish the chapter) to recruit Farina, we can shave off multiple in the future thanks to her flying utility.

Really? Fiora, Farina, and Heath all already exist, and there's nothing Farina can do that they can't. And Farina is also underlevelled and unlikely to be useful without more investment.

[Dat Nick]

Personally, I fail to see the point in blowing 20k for a unit who isn't optimal deployment. The 20k for someone I'll never use seems more than enough to justify obsoleteness to me.

Remember, the Top tier characters aren't more often in play, the Top tier characters are ALWAYS in play.

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman