What if wind affinity gave +AS?

[Reikken]

now gives +0.5 AS in addition to the 2.5 hit/avo per support level

[Interceptor]

Uhh, it'd be nice? Nephenee would suddenly be a good support partner for the borderline doublers in the GMs, Micaiah might double in Part 1, and Haar would carry Rolf around in his backpack.

[messy mike]

The possibility of +3 AS from supports sounds a bit overpowered to me. It increases the number of classes who can reliably double at endgame, for one thing, which screws with the already shitty balance.

[Fayt Zelpher]

now gives +0.5 AS in addition to the 2.5 hit/avo per support level

Instead of would be nice. In addition to would be overkill. That's my thought anyway. I like the idea of a speed boost. Would also improve wind affinity from it's rather poor position as well. It'd be on par with Water and Dark, though I don't know if it would be as good as FE10 Earth...

EDIT: Ike x Neph means that Ike can double auras with an A support. Shouldn't be too hard to get that far by 4-E-5. I like that. Or Ike x Haar, though that has Mov issues...

Edited March 19, 2010 by Lord Ratatosk

[Narga_Rocks]

now gives +0.5 AS in addition to the 2.5 hit/avo per support level

It's better than it was, I suppose. I guess Oscar likes a B from it since his tier 2 cap is 24 and so many enemies have 21 AS for a while. Oh, right, RD. C support gives +1 and A support gives +2. I guess Titania and Ike don't mind it either since 23 AS in 3-3 (Titania w/ wing) comes up short of the 20 AS enemies, and Ike is borderline on things.

I'm kinda surprised that +1 AS is actually helping so many units. Also, Haar too. Haar even has wind and could actually support Nephenee earlier than other units. +3 AS at A level.

It's now a niche affinity that isn't particularly useful for units like Boyd, since +1 AS and +2 AS aren't that significant when you have a base spd of 18 and a 45% growth. But there are some units that benefit a fair amount.

Of course, Nephenee still doesn't actually want Haar, since she'd rather have +mt than +spd, probably. I suppose if he supports anybody then he still gets +1 and eventually +2, which still help.

Titania with a C wind support can now double spirits and auras. Yay her. Well, assuming, winged, she gets to 20/11 and supports wind at A rank. I guess that should happen for some time in 4-E. Haar at max speed even doubles, but he needs 20/18 or so even winged, so probably still no.

Basically, it helps some GMs in part 3 and it helps units that actually reach a 32 spd cap (31 if they themselves have wind, I suppose) but I'm not sure it's game-breaking. It doesn't change the DB chapters very much at all, nor the part 2 chapters. Nor very many of the GMs, actually.

@Int, yeah, Haar with Saviour + Rolf. That's better than the Neph idea, since she'd actually want to fight. I would probably not argue against Haar > Ike anymore. Haar may even need to be in the same tier as Ike (T). The support still takes time to build, but even a 02 can get a support level per chapter with 7 turns of carrying, so maybe not all that long.

[Anouleth]

The possibility of +3 AS from supports sounds a bit overpowered to me. It increases the number of classes who can reliably double at endgame, for one thing, which screws with the already shitty balance.

I can see an issue with Haar, since now he can have 34AS for Endgame pretty easily with a Nephenee or Rolf support. Although it makes Rolf a bit better, I guess, and the same for Kieran.

[Progenitus]

Haar would quite easily be better than Ike rather than somewhat debatable.

Neph would jump up dramatically as suddenly everyone not named Mia wouldn't mind supporting her. Better than Oscar is most likely, although better than Shinon or Mia is stretching it.

Rolf vs Boyd might actually be debatable, and he'd certainly be better than Soren.

Laura would undoubtedly be better than Micaiah, and she could possibly rocket into high tier (rather than be stuck around upper mid). Speaking of which, we probably wouldn't keep miccy x sothe support, and let sothe hit up on someone else. This would also help him stay useful beyond part 1, tagging around to give +2 AS to someone.

The other wind affinities probably wouldn't see much benefit; they aren't around long enough to build supports (or I'm forgetting someone).

[Mekkah]

Laura x Aran becomes even more valuable to allow Aran to avoid more doubles, but she and Sothe also make great partners for Nolan now for the same reason (except Nolan is more borderline so it's even more helpful for him). Grandjackal gets to hype Eddie more as he now gains more possibilities to double.

Also, Bastian x Volke = +2 AS. Sadly if I get all this support info right, it's not that much faster.

[Interceptor]

Neph would jump up dramatically as suddenly everyone not named Mia wouldn't mind supporting her. Better than Oscar is most likely, although better than Shinon or Mia is stretching it.

You have Neph vs. Oscar ass-backwards. I'm assuming you're talking Hard Mode, here, since in NM there's only a handful of people not getting stomped by Nephinel.

In the real world, Oscar has a serious problem in the form of not-sufficient earlygame AS, and a bad tier 2 SPD cap, two things that are difficult/impossible to fix. He also has a mt problem, which we can address, but it's not worth it because of the first issue. Add this to his meh lategame, and he's worse than Neph in my estimation, largely because all of Neph's problems are fixable.

In Reikken's fake world where Wind gives +0.5 AS, both of Oscar's unfixable problems become fixable. This time, it makes sense to augment his mt with forges and/or an Energy Drop, and he's not the tier 2 offensive albatross that he used to be. Plus, with +2 AS from an A Wind support, now he has 34 AS for Endgame (Nephenee's 36 AS doesn't let her do anything new). Add all that to his higher durability, MV, and Canto which Nephenee has no answer to, and Oscar is arguably a better overall unit for your army. Instead of being gated by lolcaps, now he loses crit, but that's a match-up that he can win.

[Narga_Rocks]

You have Neph vs. Oscar ass-backwards. I'm assuming you're talking Hard Mode, here, since in NM there's only a handful of people not getting stomped by Nephinel.

In the real world, Oscar has a serious problem in the form of not-sufficient earlygame AS, and a bad tier 2 SPD cap, two things that are difficult/impossible to fix. He also has a mt problem, which we can address, but it's not worth it because of the first issue. Add this to his meh lategame, and he's worse than Neph in my estimation, largely because all of Neph's problems are fixable.

In Reikken's fake world where Wind gives +0.5 AS, both of Oscar's unfixable problems become fixable. This time, it makes sense to augment his mt with forges and/or an Energy Drop, and he's not the tier 2 offensive albatross that he used to be. Plus, with +2 AS from an A Wind support, now he has 34 AS for Endgame (Nephenee's 36 AS doesn't let her do anything new). Add all that to his higher durability, MV, and Canto which Nephenee has no answer to, and Oscar is arguably a better overall unit for your army. Instead of being gated by lolcaps, now he loses crit, but that's a match-up that he can win.

Well, Neph's 36 AS (or 37 if she supports wind like Haar or something) allows her to double some/all swordmasters in 4-E-2 (as little as that matters with an Ike 1-turn) and also Ashera herself without Nasir, and Sephiran when he has his tome equipped rather than his staff, and lets her double Seph if he has his staff equipped as long as she uses Nasir (she couldn't before). I wonder why a name change gives him +4 spd.

Still, it's not very significant.

Oh, she can double SMs in part 3 now, as well. Trouble there is that she's getting 3HKOd by them at higher crit rates than Mia, though I think Neph may be able to avoid the 3HKO from more of them than Mia, at least at first. Mia's better hp base and def growth and hp growth catch up and she'll probably get completely out of that status first.

Anyway, I agree that Oscar likely wins now that he can have better spd (without killing his longterm str with an early promotion and facing the cost of denying a crown to better units). Also, Rolf is a 00 for him, so you might actually pull off an A somewhat quickly.

I wonder if Ike's best partner changes at all. Probably not, though, given how the only 3-P wind is Rolf and the other winds will be earning supports with him approximately the time Ike no longer needs the spd boost.

@Mekkah, yeah, Bastian x Volke is rather slow given the circumstances. Probably won't hit A. Bastian at least has staves, but being a 02 with no chapter bonus in 4-5 and only short chapters ahead (including 4-5) makes it rather unlikely that they'll hit an A for 4-E-5. If 4-E-1 is long enough to reach C (needs 12 adjacents in 2 chapters, though healing can make it a bit easier. 5 heals + 5 adjacents works) then you can get a B for 4-E-5.

[Anouleth]

Rolf (T) would actually be quite silly. Four levels and any C support means he ties base Shinon in AS and beats him in strength. And obviously he's growing at a much quicker rate, so while he's probably never winning durability, he beats Shinon in offense.

[Hash Jar]

Rolf or anyone else with wind could be useful to Ike if he doesn't reach 27 Speed and you want him to fight the BK. Thing is you probably want that Wind to go to someone else anyway and it's probably better to just BEXP his Speed to 27. It depends on how the player plays.

[nflchamp]

Rolf or anyone else with wind could be useful to Ike if he doesn't reach 27 Speed and you want him to fight the BK. Thing is you probably want that Wind to go to someone else anyway and it's probably better to just BEXP his Speed to 27. It depends on how the player plays.

It's been a while since Ike's speed problem has been determined ignorable due to cards not giving counters to enemies.

[Narga_Rocks]

Rolf (T) would actually be quite silly. Four levels and any C support means he ties base Shinon in AS and beats him in strength. And obviously he's growing at a much quicker rate, so while he's probably never winning durability, he beats Shinon in offense.

Yeah, and a Rolf(T) with an A support with another wind unit (that sadly don't appear until 3-2 so it takes a while) would soon be able to double swordmasters (not that Shinon wouldn't be able to do the same if he took wind. The point is that Rolf would gain ground, not lose it, so it is important to note that while Shinon improves, he doesn't get out of Rolf(T)'s reach).

[_____]

I would give Heaven a boost before I would give Wind one. Even that tiny bit of avoid > anything Heaven can possibly offer outside of maybe the Endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

I would give Heaven a boost before I would give Wind one. Even that tiny bit of avoid > anything Heaven can possibly offer outside of maybe the Endgame.

The game didn't even set Heaven up to be good. Think Heaven x Heaven support with high skill + luck and swords using gamble. If you can set it up to have above 70% hit rate and crit rate, it could be decent. But in fe9 Stefan can't support any Heaven (and has bad luck) or even the less giving +hit affinities, Lethe doesn't get +crit sm bonus nor can she use things like vague katti. In RD Stefan never appears in time, blah blah blah.

The massive boost to hit with Heaven could have been combined with gamble and bonus crit and killer weapons to do fun things, but it wasn't so it isn't as good. (Though I do love Elincia's 100% hit rate on Auras and Ashera). but as you said, "outside of maybe the Endgame" (though I reject your "maybe")

[Hash Jar]

It's been a while since Ike's speed problem has been determined ignorable due to cards not giving counters to enemies.

Yeah I know, but I usually don't get there in time to attack the BK. I always have the BK attack Ike. That's just me however.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Rafael

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah I know, but I usually don't get there in time to attack the BK. I always have the BK attack Ike. That's just me however.

It's not hard to get there before the last turn, so having him support Rolf just for that is a bad idea. Also, Neph or Haar would be a B at best by this point in time, so a 25 spd Ike is still doubled (and a 26 spd Ike isn't). In other words, to really guarantee it, his support partner must be Rolf, which is a terrible idea for the rest of the game. I shouldn't even have to say why.

[_____]

The game didn't even set Heaven up to be good. Think Heaven x Heaven support with high skill + luck and swords using gamble. If you can set it up to have above 70% hit rate and crit rate, it could be decent. But in fe9 Stefan can't support any Heaven (and has bad luck) or even the less giving +hit affinities, Lethe doesn't get +crit sm bonus nor can she use things like vague katti. In RD Stefan never appears in time, blah blah blah.

The massive boost to hit with Heaven could have been combined with gamble and bonus crit and killer weapons to do fun things, but it wasn't so it isn't as good. (Though I do love Elincia's 100% hit rate on Auras and Ashera). but as you said, "outside of maybe the Endgame" (though I reject your "maybe")

And it's not like you can get Gamble before 3-E in this game, anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

And it's not like you can get Gamble before 3-E in this game, anyway.

Well, 3-11, since that's when Kieran arrives. But yeah, even if you had the possibility for a double heaven A support by mid part 3 with a unit that has good luck and great skill and massive crit, it still wouldn't matter without Gamble.

[Anouleth]

The game didn't even set Heaven up to be good. Think Heaven x Heaven support with high skill + luck and swords using gamble. If you can set it up to have above 70% hit rate and crit rate, it could be decent. But in fe9 Stefan can't support any Heaven (and has bad luck) or even the less giving +hit affinities, Lethe doesn't get +crit sm bonus nor can she use things like vague katti. In RD Stefan never appears in time, blah blah blah.

The massive boost to hit with Heaven could have been combined with gamble and bonus crit and killer weapons to do fun things, but it wasn't so it isn't as good. (Though I do love Elincia's 100% hit rate on Auras and Ashera). but as you said, "outside of maybe the Endgame" (though I reject your "maybe")

It's not just gamble. Hit rates in Part 1 are rarely good, and many characters have biorhythm issues. If Laura had Heaven affinity instead of Wind, it would be more useful.

Wind affinity is just underpowered in general. Certain characters quite like the high +hit from Heaven, but Wind doesn't really give enough of anything to be good.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's not just gamble. Hit rates in Part 1 are rarely good, and many characters have biorhythm issues. If Laura had Heaven affinity instead of Wind, it would be more useful.

Wind affinity is just underpowered in general. Certain characters quite like the high +hit from Heaven, but Wind doesn't really give enough of anything to be good.

It's true. If Meg came earlier she'd be pretty good for giving units a C in 1-4 and a B in 1-6. Still bad, and likely dropped once that other unit builds a support with Jill or Zihark or Volug. But until then...

Or if Meg was just a better character in general the other units would love that Heaven affinity.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Well, 3-11, since that's when Kieran arrives. But yeah, even if you had the possibility for a double heaven A support by mid part 3 with a unit that has good luck and great skill and massive crit, it still wouldn't matter without Gamble.

With double heaven A, if Stefan's luck was a little better he would be retardedly broken with Gamble

[Interceptor]

At least Stefan kept his massive overkill SKL in this game, though that's the case for every Swordmaster and their mother in RD.

[Narga_Rocks]

With double heaven A, if Stefan's luck was a little better he would be retardedly broken with Gamble

fe9?

Duh. That's the point. It's like Mia running around at wrath hp but with more str and, you know, not being at wrath hp. If he wields a killing edge (don't think he even needs the vague katti for 100% crit) and has over 75% listed hit (not sure if he would be) while using Gamble it'd be cool. If he could get 100hit/100crit that would be even better. Give him A Lethe/B Mia in fe9 and he has +45 hit on top of his skill and luck (which I'd make 15 base with 60% growth getting him to ~22 luck at 20/20.)

So 29 skill and ~18 luck (depending on level) and 75 hit killer (80 hit Vague Katti) and +45 hit from supports.

(58 + 18 + 75 + 45)/2 = 98 hit against enemy avo. Or if enemy avo is subtracted before the division (which is preferable for Stefan) then (58 + 18 + 75 + 45 - enemy avo)/2 = 98 - (enemy avo/2). Which means an enemy with, say, 40 avo would be facing 78 listed hit (90.54% true) and 100% crit. 90% kill rate, oh yeah. And since he's not at wrath hp, even if he needs two hits (aka 4HKOs to 6HKOs) that is still over 80% kill rate (and a 99%+ chance of at least one crit in two hits, so leaving the enemy rather weakened if not dead).

Of course, if enemy avo comes after the divide by 2, then 98 - 40 is a mere 58 hit, or 65.14% true, which isn't nearly as impressive when you consider that without gamble he'd have a 100% hit rate and over 50% crit anyway. The expected value of his damage is actually higher without gamble.

Assume 15 damage w/out crit and 45 damage with crit (I could use x and 3x and it would be the same, though).

with gamble he does 45 x .6514 = 29.313 damage on average.

w/out gamble he does 15 x .5 + 45 x .5 = 7.5 + 22.5 = 30 damage on average.

On average he does more damage in one hit without gamble than with it (even if only slightly). And if his crit rate without gamble is actually above 50, like, say, 55, then his gamble damage remains unchanged while his no gamble damage just goes up.

But that 90.54% hit rate?

45 x .9054 = 40.743 damage. More than 10 higher on average than without gamble. Gamble would be totally worth it (and possibly quite broken).

As it is, with the first method of calculating Gamble is stupidly useless on everyone because expected damage is so very much lower with gamble than without. With the second way of calculating, where hit is cut in half after enemy avo, it's not so bad but still not amazing.

Stefan at max level, for example, has just 8 luck rather than 18, and 25 hit from supports rather than 45. He loses 30 hit, or 15 after the reduction from gamble.

This drives his 78 down to 63 listed, for just 72.99% true. Expected damage is actually slightly better than the 30 damage on average calculated earlier (only by 2.8455), but the higher variance in damage probably makes it not worthwhile. If enemy hit is factored in after the division, then it turns the dubious 58 listed into 43 listed, or 37.41% true. Expected damage = 16.8345. aka just over half of the damage that you do on average without gamble.

Now, personally, I love broken stuff. Just check out my username. I also don't really like the criminally useless skills. When the unit that can probably achieve the second best hit in the game (Mia gets the best since she has more luck and can still get almost as good skill and can also get +25 hit from supports) while maintaining 100% crit barely gets anything out of Gamble (2.8455 extra damage if gamble is programmed nicely) or gets hurt so severely, the skill is clearly not worth it.

P.S., can anyone check out Gamble for what it actually does in both games? Give hit of unit before encountering enemy without considering gamble (so a unit with no supports, 20 skill, 10 luck, and an 80 hit weapon has 130 hit in fe9 and 130, 140, 145, or 150 hit in RD depending on the stars of the leader), the avo of the enemy, and the hit rate given in the combat window while using Gamble?

Some have said it divides before enemy hit, some have said after, and I thought I checked once and it divided before, but I could be wrong.

@Interceptor:

Yeah, and in RD he doesn't really have a prayer of hitting A Heaven x Heaven ever, though within reason the earliest you might pull off is 4-E-5, just in time for Mantle to be on every relevant enemy. Also, by the time he shows up killers kinda blow. Also, enemy avo went way up in this game, too.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks