S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Interceptor]

It's not just you. I would probably call him a unit too. But Interceptor's point (that this is pretty much an irreconcilable difference in philosophies), while redundant and old by now, is also valid.

When I read this, at first I was going to protest your characterization of my point. But then, I realized that when it comes to stale arguments from the Department of Redundancy Department, you are essentially the authority on the subject. So, I think that I will defer to your expertise on this matter.

I have actually read this thread and all of last thread in my spare time. I saw your reasoning and think the logic's off.

You shouldn't say that others lack the sense of logic because they disagree with you, because from where I'm standing you do quite the same thing.

There must be some sort of Law of Conservation of Misinterpretation on the Internet at play here. I was hoping that once smash got banhammered, that I'd have one fewer person on Serenes Forest putting words in my mouth, but all of a sudden you just popped up to fill the void. Awesome. /wrists

I did not say that anyone lacked a sense of logic. I think that accusing someone of being illogical is only slightly less boring as calling someone a hypocrite.

What I said was, I don't understand how you don't understand. It's one thing to disagree with someone else's opinionated conclusion about Merlinus WRT his unit-ness, but it's something else entirely to not even understand how someone can see him as such (your words, not mine). The way I see it, your statement implies one of two things: either you didn't bother reading the arguments, or you did read them but think that the people making the arguments are so batty that you can't even understand where they are coming from. Pick one of these two things, or give me another conclusion.

Well, I suppose you also could have taken everyone's posts and thrown them into Google Translate, and now you're stumped because you have no idea what "Merlinuswa sentō de wa nai" means. But I considered that to be a fairly low possibility.

[K3Nyy]

There must be some sort of Law of Conservation of Misinterpretation on the Internet at play here. I was hoping that once smash got banhammered, that I'd have one fewer person on Serenes Forest putting words in my mouth, but all of a sudden you just popped up to fill the void. Awesome. /wrists

I did not say that anyone lacked a sense of logic. I think that accusing someone of being illogical is only slightly less boring as calling someone a hypocrite.

What I said was, I don't understand how you don't understand. It's one thing to disagree with someone else's opinionated conclusion about Merlinus WRT his unit-ness, but it's something else entirely to not even understand how someone can see him as such (your words, not mine). The way I see it, your statement implies one of two things: either you didn't bother reading the arguments, or you did read them but think that the people making the arguments are so batty that you can't even understand where they are coming from. Pick one of these two things, or give me another conclusion.

If I misinterpreted you, I owe you my apologies. I myself didn't mean I don't understand, I read your arguments and I just don't think they are enough. That's me though. My apologies.

But Merlinus doesn't follow conventional Fire Emblem rules.

1. He doesn't die. How many other units in Fire Emblem (from 1 to 9 and FEDS) come back in the next map, even if they die? FE10 is a different case because it's story line based (fighting your own units).

2. He doesn't level up by gaining Exp. He just levels up once a map. How many other units in Fire Emblem do that? Here's a hint. It's starts with a Z and rhymes with Nero.

3. He has no commands other than Wait. How many other units do that?

If I see good logic for why Merlinus should be considered a proper unit, I'll back it. But right now, all I'm seeing is "Convey has a face, a name and certain stats. Therefore, he's a unit". And I'm not buying that logic because stats don't make a unit. Commands do. Last I checked, we rank units on how well they utilized their commands (I feel a giant Nino shitstorm coming again), not for how well they exist.

Despite all of this being true, there are a plethora of OTHER similar things that make him a unit. He has a unique class with unique abilities. Just because he doesn't follow the conventional characteristics most FE characters, it doesn't mean he's not a unit. Here's another interesting point, why do you characterize all units needing EXP and having commands, etc. Most characters do have these characteristics, however, it doesn't mean that all characters need to.

Even if you argue against all of this, the game defines Merlinus as one of your units. As subjective as this topic is, technically, by the game's definition, he is a unit.

[dondon151]

Even if you argue against all of this, the game defines Merlinus as one of your units. As subjective as this topic is, technically, by the game's definition, he is a unit.

That's only because Merlinus has combat parameters. If you put the cursor on him when he's in tent form and press A, it brings up the screen that comes up if you pressed A in any other blank part of the map. It's as if you're not pressing A on a unit.

I'm not even sure why this is being discussed in the first place. I'm almost entirely sure that this suggestion was brought up to troll the members in this community. There is no point to tiering Merlinus; it doesn't tell the player any useful information. I'm not implying that the tier list tells the player a great deal of useful information in the first place, but the act of tiering Merlinus seems to be reserved for backroom debaters who sit on cushioned thrones and wear monocles and sip imported tea.

Edited March 31, 2010 by dondon151

[K3Nyy]

That's only because Merlinus has combat parameters. If you put the cursor on him when he's in tent form and press A, it brings up the screen that comes up if you pressed A in any other blank part of the map. It's as if you're not pressing A on a unit.

What about when he's a wagon?

[frat_tastic]

I can assure you I didn't bring up the point of Merlinus again to troll anyone, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of doing so. I merely disagree with the notion of not tiering Merlinus, when the game defines him as one of your units, and all other units are represented on the tier list.

I'm not even sure why this is being discussed in the first place. I'm almost entirely sure that this suggestion was brought up to troll the members in this community. There is no point to tiering Merlinus; it doesn't tell the player any useful information. I'm not implying that the tier list tells the player a great deal of useful information in the first place, but the act of tiering Merlinus seems to be reserved for backroom debaters who sit on cushioned thrones and wear monocles and sip imported tea.

What do you think the point of a tier list is then? You've already explained you don't think its really there to give a plethora of information, and while I'd disagree to some extent to the snobbish attitude you give to most people who discuss tier lists, I don't see any difference to what's been happening with tier lists since their inception and what you've described here. We talk about tier lists because we enjoy doing so, or because we get some sort of satisfaction from debating topics about this game. What more are you looking for? Does it really bother you to have discussion on something? Before I brought this back up, discussion had slowed significantly, as it had before a different controversial subject was brought up.

Edited March 31, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Narga_Rocks]

Before I brought this back up, discussion had slowed significantly, as it had before a different controversial subject was brought up.

I invoke dis continuity

That other discussion never happened.

@dondon, the time Merlinus was brought up a few weeks ago was done by BBlade, though I suppose that this most recent resurgence in Merlinus related discussions was caused by frat_tastic.

I'm fairly certain BBlade, at least, wasn't attempting to troll us.

[frat_tastic]

Oh that discussion happened. No doubt about it.

Anyway, no I didn't bring it up for the very first time, but the topic of Merlinus had died down, and I thought it appropriate to bring it back up, as it is something I felt was wrong with the tier list, just as any person would if they felt something on the list was wrong.

And I still fail to see how I'm trolling anything.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh that discussion happened. No doubt about it.

Anyway, no I didn't bring it up for the very first time, but the topic of Merlinus had died down, and I thought it appropriate to bring it back up, as it is something I felt was wrong with the tier list, just as any person would if they felt something on the list was wrong.

I still remember the "Dude in a Wagon Tier", though maybe that was fe6. I liked that because it was funny. Like using "seinfeld tier" in PoR and listing Titania under it. It's because she's so good it's funny.

And I still fail to see how I'm trolling anything.

Never said you were. Don't know you well enough for me to say (with confidence) that you aren't, either, though, so I didn't.

[frat_tastic]

Not a huge seinfeld fan. He'd be like lower-mid, maybe upper mid-tier for me.

And your statement seemed, to me at least, to imply that while BB wasn't trolling I was. If thats not what you meant, my mistake, but its how I took it.

[Dat Nick]

Like using "seinfeld tier" in PoR and listing Titania under it. It's because she's so good it's funny.

I'm not a seinfeld fan. MILF tier was funnier. Because that's also true.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not a seinfeld fan. MILF tier was funnier. Because that's also true.

Titania's not actually anyone's mother though, just a surrogate for some of the younger GMs.

[Mekkah]

Yeah, but SFSOTYGMILF doesn't sound as good.

[Don Draper]

I'm not a seinfeld fan.

You're just saying that because you don't like being compared to Newman.

[Colonel M]

Yeah, but SFSOTYGMMILF doesn't sound as good.

You forgot the "Mother" or "Mercenary" Mr. Mekkah.

I think Arena is the best ULE in the game, by the way.

[CATS]

When I read this, at first I was going to protest your characterization of my point. But then, I realized that when it comes to stale arguments from the Department of Redundancy Department, you are essentially the authority on the subject. So, I think that I will defer to your expertise on this matter.

Out of pure curiosity, why do you feel the need to post things like this? Trolling, or do you just think it's funny or clever? I'm assuming the latter, but I'd like to know.

Second-best ULE is armory. Letting you buy javelins and hand axes is indispensible.

[Interceptor]

Out of pure curiosity, why do you feel the need to post things like this? Trolling, or do you just think it's funny or clever? I'm assuming the latter, but I'd like to know.

You need to clarify what you mean by "things like this".

I posted a proportional response to a comment that you made. If you're wondering why I did something like "reply to a post on a message board", and the answer is not immediately self-evident to you, you're going to have to ask someone who will probably charge you $200 an hour.

Second-best ULE is armory. Letting you buy javelins and hand axes is indispensible.

Co-signing this. See, it's pretty easy to rank terrain tiles relative to each other if you really try.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Interceptor

[CATS]

You need to clarify what you mean by "things like this".

I posted a proportional response to a comment that you made. If you're wondering why I did something like "reply to a post on a message board", and the answer is not immediately self-evident to you, you're going to have to ask someone who will probably charge you $200 an hour.

"Things like this" means snide or derogatory passages such as the one I quoted. I suppose you could say that I "started it" or something, but I certainly don't see how your response is proportional even if that's the case (although that's a matter of perspective too, I guess), and in some cases these comments of yours are unprovoked. Then again, the ability to piss people off and get away with it is one of the greatest things about the Internet, so I guess it's not that much of a mystery after all.

Co-signing this. See, it's pretty easy to rank terrain tiles relative to each other if you really try.

Indeed. I could see Secret Shop vs Vendor making for a very interesting debate.

[Life]

Indeed. I could see Secret Shop vs Vendor making for a very interesting debate.

I personally say Vendor > Secret Shop based on availability and ease. Secret Shops have this habit of making us go out of the way to get to them *cough**Sands of Time**cough*.

In all seriousness, Merlinus is currently unranked with the possibility of coming off of the tier list. Nobody can agree if he should be ranked or shouldn't (I'm for the shouldn't) and even if he is ranked, I personally can't see him rising above Nino (Shire, just so you know, I will argue for Merlinus at the bottom of the list if we agree to rank him).

Next order of business. Fiora and Canas. Both have had people agree with me saying that they should move up. But how are we going to move them?

[frat_tastic]

Vendor for sure, we buy staves from it.

With Fiora and Canas, I can't see them rising any higher than they are. I can see Dorcas dropping below them though. MAYBE Geitz, but I haven't looked at this at all and this is just me talking without having any facts to support it.

As for Merlinus, where to put him can wait until we agree to actually put him on the list, but I will argue that he be higher than where you would place him. That can wait until later though. I do think that you being able to envision a place for him on the list is indicative that somewhere, deep, DEEP down, you think Merlinus is a unit. Admit it, you can't deny it anymore.

In all seriousness though, who all is for tiering Merlinus and who is against it? I know I'm for it, as is KY by the sound of it, and I know that you and Int are against it. What about everyone else? I really dislike having to take the majority opinion here, but it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere on the subject either way, as both sides just flat-out reject the logic of the other. Except I know that you actually think Merlinus is capable of being tiered Life.

Edited April 1, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Anouleth]

Next order of business. Fiora and Canas. Both have had people agree with me saying that they should move up. But how are we going to move them?

Probably above Geitz, but below Harken. Canas only needs to be promoted to be beating base Geitz in offense, and while Geitz has a few durability wins (more HP, more defense), Canas has a massive resistance lead and never has to eat counter-attacks. And Canas has other minor advantages to swing it in his favour - such as Luna access and staves.

[Balcerzak]

In all seriousness though, who all is for tiering Merlinus and who is against it? I know I'm for it, as is KY by the sound of it, and I know that you and Int are against it. What about everyone else? I really dislike having to take the majority opinion here, but it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere on the subject either way, as both sides just flat-out reject the logic of the other. Except I know that you actually think Merlinus is capable of being tiered Life.

I'm firmly in the camp that Merlinus is a unit. Whether or not this necessarily entails him being tiered... I'm ambivalent.

[Interceptor]

"Things like this" means snide or derogatory passages such as the one I quoted.

I can't extrapolate from a single example. There are any number of reasons why someone would earn a snide remark from me.

I suppose you could say that I "started it" or something, but I certainly don't see how your response is proportional even if that's the case (although that's a matter of perspective too, I guess), and in some cases these comments of yours are unprovoked. Then again, the ability to piss people off and get away with it is one of the greatest things about the Internet, so I guess it's not that much of a mystery after all.

To nobody's great surprise, you've already arrived at your own conclusion. It's not as if I've had any luck in the past in budging you from a position once you've decided to dig in your hooves, so I don't see why you even asked me in the first place. I'm not your sounding board; wax philosphical on your own.

[CATS]

imo Merlinus on the list.

To nobody's great surprise, you've already arrived at your own conclusion. It's not as if I've had any luck in the past in budging you from a position once you've decided to dig in your hooves, so I don't see why you even asked me in the first place. I'm not your sounding board; wax philosphical on your own.

So I must keep my philosophical waxings to myself, yet when Interceptor feels like sharing his thoughts, it's alright for someone like me to be his sounding board? Odd. I guess you are entitled to implement such a double standard, though. After all, according to Professor Smash you're the smartest person on the site.

[Interceptor]

imo Merlinus on the list.

Merlinus is a package deal for me: I require that we start tiering the tiles. This is the price for getting me to join the Convoy Coalition. Otherwise I am with the people who think we shouldn't be tiering everything with a sprite.

So I must keep my philosophical waxings to myself, yet when Interceptor feels like sharing his thoughts, it's alright for someone like me to be his sounding board? Odd. I guess you are entitled to implement such a double standard, though.

The only odd thing here is that you can't see the difference between the two things, except by "odd", I mean "inevitable". You asked me a question, and then you answered it yourself. This really has nothing in common with my making a pointed remark about something.

After all, according to Professor Smash you're the smartest person on the site.

Not the smartest, just the one with the highest fake I.Q. You're zero for two on drawing distinctions, here.

[CATS]

Merlinus is a package deal for me: I require that we start tiering the tiles. This is the price for getting me to join the Convoy Coalition. Otherwise I am with the people who think we shouldn't be tiering everything with a sprite.

I wouldn't mind tiering the tiles. Like I said, Vendor vs Secret Shop could be a pretty interesting debate. It would breathe some new life into the discussions around here, after all, FE7 Ranked has been picked over by various communities for around 5 years now. Pretty much everything traditional has been done.

Fellow Convoy Coalition Members, what do you make of Interceptor's demand here? I think it's reasonable, and he would be a valuable ally in our crusade to defend Merlinus's right to be tiered.

The only odd thing here is that you can't see the difference between the two things, except by "odd", I mean "inevitable". You asked me a question, and then you answered it yourself. This really has nothing in common with my making a pointed remark about something.

Well, I was accounting for the possibility that your answer might differ from mine, but I guess you have a point. In the future, perhaps I will just assume that what I suspect is probably right, and keep my thoughts to myself.

Not the smartest, just the one with the highest fake I.Q. You're zero for two on drawing distinctions, here.

Both intelligent and humble. I can see why Professor Smash holds you in such high regard.