S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

Remember that you also get 40 something characters capable of holding items even if they're not participating in the battle. At Ch 24, for example, you have 29 units (not counting Geitz) each capable of holding 5 items, for a total of 145 inventory slots before accounting for Merlinus. Even if you have 12 units on the field and none of them have any extra inventory slots open (unlikely; someone like Ninian, for example, will have room to hold a few things), that's still 85 slots left over on units who are just bench-warming. And you can condense your assets into a small number of extremely expensive items; for example, using the 30K from Battle Preparations to just buy a Fell Contract in VoD has the same effect as buying 20 elixirs with it. So I don't buy the argument that you're just totally screwed without Merlinus.

You forgot about shopping. I basically have to send 2~3 units out to a single store just to buy 4~5 items. My Pegs for example will hold an Iron Lance, Javelin and Vulnerary. My Cavs hold the same thing plus an extra Iron Sword. That's 3 items for Flo and Fiora and 4 for Kent, Sain and Lowen.

Anyways, if you're saying don't tier him because he's not a unit, or he's only a semi-unit or something, then I don't disagree. If you're saying don't tier him because his contribution is too good, then why is Matthew tiered?

I personally say to not tier him because he's a name and a face on the convoy. He doesn't actually do anything, he's just there. If Lyn in NLoC fills up her inventory and sends the White Gem to Merlinus, he hasn't done anything to get it. It just comes to him. We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convey to him (auto top) or allot nothing to him (auto bottom). And both sound stupid.

But my point is that he doesn't actually do anything. He just exists. He doesn't help you 5* anything unless you give him credit for the items that he holds and then he auto tops the list just because he exists.

[CATS]

You forgot about shopping. I basically have to send 2~3 units out to a single store just to buy 4~5 items. My Pegs for example will hold an Iron Lance, Javelin and Vulnerary. My Cavs hold the same thing plus an extra Iron Sword. That's 3 items for Flo and Fiora and 4 for Kent, Sain and Lowen.

Yes, shopping becomes more difficult without Merlinus (though it also remains very possible)--he's obviously helpful. I just think you're overstating the extent to which he is helpful. You seem to think he contributes toward S Ranking Funds to the same degree that Matthew does, which isn't the case. The items he holds can easily be held by other units, and it's entirely possible to buy things and keep them without him on the field. There's no alternative to get you the silver card if Matthew isn't used.

I personally say to not tier him because he's a name and a face on the convoy. He doesn't actually do anything, he's just there. If Lyn in NLoC fills up her inventory and sends the White Gem to Merlinus, he hasn't done anything to get it. It just comes to him. We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convey to him (auto top) or allot nothing to him (auto bottom). And both sound stupid.

But my point is that he doesn't actually do anything. He just exists. He doesn't help you 5* anything unless you give him credit for the items that he holds and then he auto tops the list just because he exists.

That depends on your definition of "using" Merlinus. For example, if the difference between using Merlinus and not using him is the difference between a team that has him on the field and a team that doesn't have him on the field, then his contributions are obvious, and they are neither auto-top nor auto-bottom. A team that never puts him on the field can't send items to the convoy in mid-battle, while a team that throws Merlinus down can. This is a clearly useful function and one possible method of valuing his contributions.

Keep in mind I'm not arguing that he should be tiered. I really don't care if he's on the list or not, as viable arguments exist on both sides of that coin. I simply disagree with your statement that "We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convoy to him, or allot nothing to him." Those clearly aren't the only options.

[Balcerzak]

What makes Merlinus different from Daniel in FE9 & 10? Nothing. But we don't rank Daniel, do we?

Merlinus can have Supports (but due to viability never will.)

That said, I would like to chip in that even having a fair chunk my benchwarming team devoted to holding spare goods, I consistently find myself running low on space. I guess I could clearly convert Torches, Mines, Light Runes, and Door Keys into a Silver or Killer or something, but you can't really condense your assets into items with a really high value to slot ratio until very late in the game. Scrolling down the shopping lists the most expensive items I can see are Physic and Elixir until FFO lets you buy an Ocean Seal, which would really require you to go out of your way to make it to that secret shop. Otherwise you have to wait until either SoT or VoD's secret shops, and in the meantime you keep building up excess inventory.

Even if you're trashing nearly broken weapons that aren't worth fielding to finish off, and just holding onto your big cash cows; the unused promotion items, stat boosters, gems, etc. that's something like 8 dedicated benchwarmers already. If you want to have a nice variety of spare weapons for upcoming chapters, that's probably the same number of units as on your active team. If you want to have some subset of units that you can rotate in, you'll need weapons for them. (Well I guess you could just have them trade with the active member they're replacing, assuming they use the same types, have similar ranks, wait, that's not convenient or necessarily likely at all.) Maybe I just stock up too conservatively. I guess this is entirely possible, but I can't imagine surviving without a convey for any extended period of time.

Edit: I spent too long typing this, it's not entirely relevant, and CATS has a good point about the between chapter prep work not necessarily being relevant, in that the difference between a team that fields him and one that doesn't is only the in-chapter send-to-Merlinus effect.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Life]

Yes, shopping becomes more difficult without Merlinus (though it also remains very possible)--he's obviously helpful. I just think you're overstating the extent to which he is helpful. You seem to think he contributes toward S Ranking Funds to the same degree that Matthew does, which isn't the case. The items he holds can easily be held by other units, and it's entirely possible to buy things and keep them without him on the field. There's no alternative to get you the silver card if Matthew isn't used.

But CATS, I don't think that. The whole reasoning to what I'm saying is that if we apply the rules of getting 5* Funds to Merlinus (ie. hold items), then our list looks inconsistant and wrong. Merlinus existing makes your life easier but he doesn't do anything. He just sits on the field.

That depends on your definition of "using" Merlinus. For example, if the difference between using Merlinus and not using him is the difference between a team that has him on the field and a team that doesn't have him on the field, then his contributions are obvious, and they are neither auto-top nor auto-bottom. A team that never puts him on the field can't send items to the convoy in mid-battle, while a team that throws Merlinus down can. This is a clearly useful function and one possible method of valuing his contributions.

Keep in mind I'm not arguing that he should be tiered. I really don't care if he's on the list or not, as viable arguments exist on both sides of that coin. I simply disagree with your statement that "We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convoy to him, or allot nothing to him." Those clearly aren't the only options.

I thought we were done with assuming that the player was stupid?

There is no downside to fielding Merlinus. The only chapters where he's legitimately in danger is Whereabouts Unknown but it makes no sense to not keep a unit down at the bottom to collect Exp from the 6 or so Cavs that appear and The Dread Isle where pirates appear from the north (hello Axereaver holding Fiora!). I'm trying to think of another time when fielding Merlinus before he gets a wagon puts him in danger but even if he does get killed, he doesn't hurt Survival.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[CATS]

I thought we were done with assuming that the player was stupid?

What are you talking about? A smart player will field Raven very often if not in every chapter, but does that make Raven's contributions irrelevant or un-measurable? Obviously not. It's a non sequiter to argue that a unit's contributions can't be measured because it's stupid to not use them; the two things have nothing to do with each other.

[Life]

What are you talking about? A smart player will field Raven very often if not in every chapter, but does that make Raven's contributions irrelevant or un-measurable? Obviously not. It's a non sequiter to argue that a unit's contributions can't be measured because it's stupid to not use them; the two things have nothing to do with each other.

But like I said, there is no downside to fielding Merlinus. The downside in fielding Raven is that we can't field someone else who might be situationally better than him.

Merlinus gets attacked? Oh no! That's horr... wait a second, why don't we hang a unit back to kill that enemy for some Exp? We can use a weak unit or one we just got (namely Fiora in The Dread Isle) to deal with the enemy!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[CATS]

But like I said, there is no downside to fielding Merlinus. The downside in fielding Raven is that we can't field someone else who might be situationally better than him.

If this is the case, then Hector and Athos must also be removed from the list. If you want to remove Merlinus without removing other units, you need a different reason or simply an additional one. I'd rather not see this reason used at all, though. Refusing to tier a unit because he does not consume a slot implies that the contributions of a unit who does not consume a deployment slot cannot be measured. This leads to the implication that units can't receive credit for anything they do unless they consume a deployment slot, and I'm pretty sure you (along with others) would disagree with the ways in which that would affect the list if it were applied consistently. Additionally, it's just counter-intuitive, as it's obviously been possible to value the contributions of a slot-less unit in the past (Hawkeye in Ch 23 and etc). What makes this case different?

Simply citing "he can't be selected or moved until he promotes and he doesn't appear on the unit select screen" would be a better reason to remove Merlinus from the list.

Also, you didn't actually respond to my point that the two things you named aren't the only possible ways to tier Merlinus, but w/e.

[Life]

If this is the case, then Hector and Athos must also be removed from the list.

This is the only thing worth responding to because you never responded to my original point of "he just exists".

We control Hector. We control Athos. We don't control Merlinus until he promotes and even then, it's basically the same thing except that he can move. We still don't control him as he has no actions for himself aside from "wait".

For more than half the game, Convoy is just there. He doesn't do anything. I never said anything about the fact that he doesn't consume a unit slot, I'm saying that he doesn't actually do anything. But there is no downside to fielding him vs. fielding anyone else.

I understand that you like playing Devil's Advocate but you're taking it to far. This argument is starting to sound stupid because I'm beating the same drum over and over while you take specific lines out of context ("no downside" doesn't mean "no unit slot").

EDIT: If you want me to say "he can't be selected or moved until he promotes and he doesn't appear on the unit select screen", then fine I'll say it. He can't be selected or moved until he promotes and he doesn't appear on the unit select screen. Therefore, he isn't a real unit. But somehow, even though this has been said in the past, Merlinus is still on the list.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[CATS]

This is the only thing worth responding to because you never responded to my original point of "he just exists".

That viewpoint, in and of itself, doesn't demonstrate anything about the possibility of tiering Merlinus--it's an extremely subjective matter, and there's more than one way to define "using" Merlinus. "He just exists" is essentially the viewpoint that a unit must be actively selected, moved around, take specific actions, etc in order to contribute, and that Merlinus therefore cannot contribute. It's the viewpoint that's against tiering him, and I don't disagree with it.

What I disagreed with was where you said "We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convey to him (auto top) or allot nothing to him (auto bottom). And both sound stupid," implying that those are the only possible viewpoints on Merlinus. Those are pretty clearly not the only two options, and I presented a possible third option to demonstrate. I'm not sure what you're trying to say or prove by insisting on the already-acknowledged "he just exists" viewpoint, when it was never stated that that particular viewpoint is invalid, shouldn't be taken, or anything like that. The point is simply that it's not the only viewpoint, and that you don't have to take an extreme side (either auto-top or auto-bottom) in the matter.

For more than half the game, Convoy is just there. He doesn't do anything. I never said anything about the fact that he doesn't consume a unit slot, I'm saying that he doesn't actually do anything. But there is no downside to fielding him vs. fielding anyone else.

Perhaps you didn't mean to, but that's what you highlighted. "There is no downside to fielding him," specifically because he does not consume a deployment slot. The former is reliant on the latter, so you can't state one without inherently acknowledging that the other is also applicable.

I understand that you like playing Devil's Advocate but you're taking it to far. This argument is starting to sound stupid because I'm beating the same drum over and over while you take specific lines out of context ("no downside" doesn't mean "no unit slot").

We're probably just misunderstanding each other. Again, I really don't care if he's on the list or not. I just disagree with some of the things you're saying in the process of moving him off of the list. My point isn't that Merlinus should be tiered, but rather that he can be viably tiered, since it looked like you were implying otherwise (once again, I could've just misunderstood you).

[Life]

Switching up the order of what you said just because of my answer to it.

Perhaps you didn't mean to, but that's what you highlighted. "There is no downside to fielding him," specifically because he does not consume a deployment slot. The former is reliant on the latter, so you can't state one without inherently acknowledging that the other is also applicable.

Downside to fielding Raven in Dragon's Gate - Possibly knock out a cavalier, axe user (for the Hammer), any other unit who might be better than him at that chapter.

Downside to fielding Merlinus in Dragon's Gate - None.

This is my point. It's not that he doesn't cost a deployment spot, it's that your team doesn't benefit by not fielding him. If there is someone who is situationally better than Raven, then that is the downside to fielding Raven in that situation. But Merlinus has doesn't have problems like this because you're not better off leaving him off the field.

That viewpoint, in and of itself, doesn't demonstrate anything about the possibility of tiering Merlinus--it's an extremely subjective matter, and there's more than one way to define "using" Merlinus. "He just exists" is essentially the viewpoint that a unit must be actively selected, moved around, take specific actions, etc in order to contribute, and that Merlinus therefore cannot contribute. It's the viewpoint that's against tiering him, and I don't disagree with it.

What I disagreed with was where you said "We can either allot the value of all of the items in the convey to him (auto top) or allot nothing to him (auto bottom). And both sound stupid," implying that those are the only possible viewpoints on Merlinus. Those are pretty clearly not the only two options, and I presented a possible third option to demonstrate. I'm not sure what you're trying to say or prove by insisting on the already-acknowledged "he just exists" viewpoint, when it was never stated that that particular viewpoint is invalid, shouldn't be taken, or anything like that. The point is simply that it's not the only viewpoint, and that you don't have to take an extreme side (either auto-top or auto-bottom) in the matter.

This is a tier list towards S Ranking HHM. What does Merlinus do towards any of these ranks, especially when you consider that he is immune to the Survival Rank? He can't fight, he can't get you Exp and he can't clear a chapter more quickly. The only thing he can do is hold weapons and items, or essentially Funds. So does he contribute to this rank? Depends on your opinion of him. You can credit him for the items that he holds because that's all he does or you can choose not to, making him worthless. Sorry to say this but there's only black and white for Merlinus in this case.

Are you in agreement to take him off the list? The only rank that Merlinus can affect is Funds and then it becomes a fuckfest of "do we give him credit for the one thing that he does or not".

Also moving Hawkeye up tiers. Nobody's said anything against it for three days so I'm taking it as in "the community is in agreement".

EDIT: Merlinus can't do anything for the Exp rank.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[Inui]

Just because I'm tired of seeing the error every time you post about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infraction

an infraction is the offence, not whatever punishment we may hand out for the infraction. How do you "get" an infraction? You commit an infraction, and receive a punishment.

Oh, and don't minimod. You make the reports (as you have been doing) and then we handle the punishments. You may notice that a mod did make a post reminding everyone not to call you names as a result of your reports.

Read these:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

Take careful note of the second rule.

Sorry that I'm going by Smashboards and AllisBrawl lingo and "minimod" because I've probably been staff on forums longer than you've been on forums. >_>;

Anyways...

I agree that Hawkeye should go up. That's what has been discussed, right? I think he's a pretty underrated unit. All of the axe-mains should be pretty much in the same tier imo.

[Life]

Sorry that I'm going by Smashboards and AllisBrawl lingo and "minimod" because I've probably been staff on forums longer than you've been on forums. >_>;

Anyways...

I agree that Hawkeye should go up. That's what has been discussed, right? I think he's a pretty underrated unit. All of the axe-mains should be pretty much in the same tier imo.

The forum comment (even though it wasn't directed to me) was uncalled for, man. If you wonder why people call you names, it's because you continuously insult them. Also, I'm surprised that you've been staff on A forum, never mind apparently longer than Narga.

And are you calling for Hector to move down a tier? Because "all the axe-mains should be pretty much in the same tier" also refers to him.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[Inui]

The forum comment (even though it wasn't directed to me) was uncalled for, man. If you wonder why people call you names, it's because you continuously insult them. Also, I'm surprised that you've been staff on A forum, never mind apparently longer than Narga.

Uh, I guess it was? I didn't mean it to be insulting. I just have a habit of being the moderator. And I don't really care what a few people at one place think of me tbqh. I've been staff at forums/chats since 2004 at least, lol. I'm currently a staff member at both FEFF and FEP, and FEP is bigger than SF.

And are you calling for Hector to move down a tier? Because "all the axe-mains should be pretty much in the same tier" also refers to him.

Eh, Hector's a bit different due to the Wolf Beil and crazy Def.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry that I'm going by Smashboards and AllisBrawl lingo and "minimod" because I've probably been staff on forums longer than you've been on forums. >_>;

And being staff on another forum allows you to violate the code of conduct on this one why? Just stop doing it and we'll be fine. Maybe that's why you think you can violate all the other rules that you are frequently violating as well, I don't know, just pay attention to what is there and if you don't like the rules make a ticket for anything you think you should be able to violate. Who knows, maybe they'll change a rule.

[Life]

Uh, I guess it was? I didn't mean it to be insulting. I just have a habit of being the moderator. And I don't really care what a few people at one place think of me tbqh. I've been staff at forums/chats since 2004 at least, lol. I'm currently a staff member at both FEFF and FEP, and FEP is bigger than SF.

Apparently this guys says differently.

Refer to me as Inui. Not a reference to Horio. You can't just call me something else stupid and get away with it. It's the same thing, and the moderators were already pretty clear about it. You should all get infractions imo for continually ignoring warnings and trolling.

If you honestly don't care, you wouldn't bitch about the "two years tennis experience" comments that keep getting made. No offense but you really should watch what you say.

[CATS]

Downside to fielding Raven in Dragon's Gate - Possibly knock out a cavalier, axe user (for the Hammer), any other unit who might be better than him at that chapter.

Downside to fielding Merlinus in Dragon's Gate - None.

This is my point. It's not that he doesn't cost a deployment spot, it's that your team doesn't benefit by not fielding him. If there is someone who is situationally better than Raven, then that is the downside to fielding Raven in that situation. But Merlinus has doesn't have problems like this because you're not better off leaving him off the field.

Indeed. You don't seem to realize that this is the case as a direct result of Merlinus not consuming a deployment slot; it's what separates him from other units who do, and it is the difference which leads to it always being a good idea to field Merlinus, but not necessarily always a good idea to field Guy or w/e. "He doesn't consume a deployment slot" and "there's no downside to using him" are pretty much referring to the same concept. I don't see what this has to do with tiering him either, but w/e.

This is a tier list towards S Ranking HHM. What does Merlinus do towards any of these ranks, especially when you consider that he is immune to the Survival Rank? He can't fight, he can't get you Exp and he can't clear a chapter more quickly. The only thing he can do is hold weapons and items, or essentially Funds. So does he contribute to this rank? Depends on your opinion of him. You can credit him for the items that he holds because that's all he does or you can choose not to, making him worthless. Sorry to say this but there's only black and white for Merlinus in this case.

Or:

That depends on your definition of "using" Merlinus. For example, if the difference between using Merlinus and not using him is the difference between a team that has him on the field and a team that doesn't have him on the field, then his contributions are obvious, and they are neither auto-top nor auto-bottom. A team that never puts him on the field can't send items to the convoy in mid-battle, while a team that throws Merlinus down can. This is a clearly useful function and one possible method of valuing his contributions.

One way to judge a unit's contributions is to see how much worse off the team is in their absence; to see what is lost if they're not on the field. In this case you certainly have a gray area for Merlinus, something that doesn't place him in bottom tier or in top tier. It all depends on your definition of "using" a unit.

If "using" means selecting the unit during battle and having it perform a function, then Merlinus does nothing (or nearly nothing), since he cannot be selected for most of his existence and can only Wait even after he promotes (which can still be useful--for blocking enemies and etc--just very minimally so). However, if "using" a unit simply means putting them onto the field, and measuring what you gain by having them present, then you clearly benefit from Merlinus's presence on the field even though he's not Attacking or Healing or w/e. If "using" means not only actions performed on the field, but also extends to the Preparations screen and includes having your units hold items, then as you said, Merlinus is actually very high on the list. There's probably other possible definitions, as well.

There's not really any objective reasons to favor any one of these viewpoints over the other. It's just a matter of opinion, really, and in this case you're using the first of the 3 definitions given above. There's nothing wrong with that; it's not clearly the "right" decision, either, as seemed to be the attitude about it. My point is that the whole Merlinus issue is, in fact, nothing more than a matter of opinion, and that there really isn't a viewpoint which is objectively more valid than the others here.

Are you in agreement to take him off the list? The only rank that Merlinus can affect is Funds and then it becomes a fuckfest of "do we give him credit for the one thing that he does or not".

I'm indifferent to whether or not he's on the list, which for all intents and purposes might as well be agreement, since either way I won't protest if he drops off.

[Life]

I'm indifferent to whether or not he's on the list, which for all intents and purposes might as well be agreement, since either way I won't protest if he drops off.

Then why are we arguing?

If I say that (example) Raven should drop to spot X because of Y reason and you claim that he should drop to spot X because of Z and not Y, why does it matter? We both think that he should end in spot X for whatever reason.

[CATS]

Then why are we arguing?

If I say that (example) Raven should drop to spot X because of Y reason and you claim that he should drop to spot X because of Z and not Y, why does it matter? We both think that he should end in spot X for whatever reason.

As I said, I did not disagree with your conclusion, but I disagreed with some of the things you said and some of the ideas you expressed along the way. Similar to how in the previous topic, Balcerzak didn't disagree with Inui's overall conclusion that Marcus > Oswin, but did disagree with a couple specific points Inui was using to reach that conclusion. To match your example, if someone argues that Raven is top tier despite his poor offense, because his mobility and defenses are so high, I am probably going to say something about it. That's a rather extreme example, but hopefully it conveys the idea. *shrug*

[Narga_Rocks]

Then why are we arguing?

If I say that (example) Raven should drop to spot X because of Y reason and you claim that he should drop to spot X because of Z and not Y, why does it matter? We both think that he should end in spot X for whatever reason.

I would think he's arguing because he doesn't want a unit removed for the wrong reasons. If reason X is okay, but reason Y is not, then it appears that he wants to make certain that reason X is why the unit is being removed.

After stripping away all the illegitimate reasons for removing Merlinus, are the remaining (legitimate) reasons enough to remove him anyway? If so, then fine. If not, then he stays.

@Interceptor

I think it would be funny to seriously debate where to stick the arena. It would be no easier than placing a dancer, though, and considering how much you love those arguments, I'd think you should probably not argue in favour of equal representation for all forms of ULEs.

[Life]

As I said, I did not disagree with your conclusion, but I disagreed with some of the things you said and some of the ideas you expressed along the way. Similar to how in the previous topic, Balcerzak didn't disagree with Inui's overall conclusion that Marcus > Oswin, but did disagree with a couple specific points Inui was using to reach that conclusion. To match your example, if someone argues that Raven is top tier despite his poor offense, because his mobility and defenses are so high, I am probably going to say something about it. That's a rather extreme example, but hopefully it conveys the idea. *shrug*

Yeah, I get your example. You have a really good point.

My impression of using a unit is talking about the command that they have and seeing how well they use it is what we're rating. That also extends to defense in the case of those who cannot fight but still use a command that does something important for the team (dancing, healing, rescuing).

Edited March 25, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[frat_tastic]

Personally I'm against dropping Merlinus off the list, because I disagree with the idea that he's not a unit. I don't really buy that he's just "the convoy with a name and a face". No other convoy (FE6 aside) is a moveable (eventually), deployable, separate unit on the field. Nor do they get supports. Nor do they have battle sprites. Or any of the minute things also associated with Merlinus.

I also disagree with the argument that he only affects the funds rank. He clearly affects the other ranks, and mainly in a negative way. Funds is a positive contribution, but because he can't move or counterattack or gain experience, he is a negative in terms of the Tactics, Combat, or Experience ranks.

My two cents.

Edited March 25, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Narga_Rocks]

Personally I'm against dropping Merlinus off the list, because I disagree with the idea that he's not a unit. I don't really buy that he's just "the convoy with a name and a face". No other convoy (FE6 aside) is a moveable (eventually), deployable, separate unit on the field. Nor do they get supports. Nor do they have battle sprites. Or any of the minute things also associated with Merlinus.

I also disagree with the argument that he only affects the funds rank. He clearly affects the other ranks, and mainly in a negative way. Funds is a positive contribution, but because he can't move or counterattack or gain experience, he is a negative in terms of the Tactics, Combat, or Experience ranks.

My two cents.

Well, he lets you use an extra unit or two for fighting in certain chapters. If not for Merlinus, in order to get full use out of a silver card wouldn't you have to have a unit or two with just a silver card in their inventory and no weapons? Otherwise, how much could you really buy? Having to deploy an extra couple of units that aren't even there to fight is annoying and might hurt tactics. Now, granted they could start fighting after buying stuff, but still.

But I think there are enough differences between him and normal units that you can't tier him. Even if you choose to do so anyway, I still think he's worse at his job than the guys from fe9. They don't have to be on the field to grab items. In fact, Merlinus in fe6 is better since he doesn't have to be on the field either. You are basically tiering the worst convoy to ever exist in fire emblem, and the others don't get tiered because they are too good at their job to need to take up a spot on the field? The ones in fe9 at least have personalities, too.

[CATS]

But I think there are enough differences between him and normal units that you can't tier him. Even if you choose to do so anyway, I still think he's worse at his job than the guys from fe9. They don't have to be on the field to grab items. In fact, Merlinus in fe6 is better since he doesn't have to be on the field either. You are basically tiering the worst convoy to ever exist in fire emblem, and the others don't get tiered because they are too good at their job to need to take up a spot on the field? The ones in fe9 at least have personalities, too.

FE6 Merlinus is tiered, unless that changed in the last few hours. Also, recall what the good man Interceptor said about cross-game comparisons.

Well, he lets you use an extra unit or two for fighting in certain chapters. If not for Merlinus, in order to get full use out of a silver card wouldn't you have to have a unit or two with just a silver card in their inventory and no weapons? Otherwise, how much could you really buy? Having to deploy an extra couple of units that aren't even there to fight is annoying and might hurt tactics. Now, granted they could start fighting after buying stuff, but still.

He does hurt Tactics and Combat in the sense that he's a magnet for enemies and doesn't counter-attack; without him on the field, enemies might have gone and attacked your combatants and gotten countered, instead of going for Merlinus and taking no damage. Of course that doesn't at all outweigh the positives of having him on the field; just saying, that's what I think frat was referring to. Don't really see what frat means when saying he can hurt Exp; he doesn't help it, but he's obviously not taking any kills away from you, either. I guess Merlinus could hurt Exp if it was the last turn of the chapter and an enemy lived because it attacked him and didn't get countered (as opposed to attacking Guy or w/e), but that's ridiculously minor.

Edited March 25, 2010 by CATS

[Narga_Rocks]

FE6 Merlinus is tiered, unless that changed in the last few hours. Also, recall what the good man Interceptor said about cross-game comparisons.

fe6 Merlinus is like a dancer that can't dance but has 105 item slots rather than 5. That's a lot closer to a unit than fe7 Merlinus. As for the cross-list comparisons, yeah, I know, but still. He's like the worst convoy of all time and he gets to be on a list because of it? And some people want him in high or better. Worst convoy unit of all time is high tier (or even upper mid) while fe6 Merlinus, clearly superior as far as being a convoy is concerned (doesn't need to be deployed to serve his primary function) is near the bottom? No way.

He does hurt Tactics and Combat in the sense that he's a magnet for enemies and doesn't counter-attack; without him on the field, enemies might have gone and attacked your combatants and gotten countered, instead of going for Merlinus and taking no damage. Of course that doesn't at all outweigh the positives of having him on the field; just saying, that's what I think frat was referring to. Don't really see what frat means when saying he can hurt Exp; he doesn't help it, but he's obviously not taking any kills away from you, either. I guess Merlinus could hurt Exp if it was the last turn of the chapter and an enemy lived because it attacked him and didn't get countered (as opposed to attacking Guy or w/e), but that's ridiculously minor.

But still, it frees up your other units a lot. Only one has to go to a shop, and that one doesn't have to have all its slots empty except for a silver card, in comparison to having 2 or 3 units going around with nothing but the card. Even if you have to hold a unit back sometimes to protect Merlinus, I think that is still more positive towards Tactics than negative.

[Dat Nick]

Cross list comparisons make perfectly fine sense so long as something in the gameplay mechanics of the other game does not invalidate the argument made. I.e, there's nothing in FE7 or FE4 that would make it okay to tier Hector but not Sigurd, and Sigurd but not Hector. Likewise, in FE8 and FE9 there's nothing that would make it okay to tier Seth but not Titania or tier Titania but not Seth.

And bringing us to our current situation, there's nothing that causes it to make sense to tier FE6 Merlinus but not FE7 Merlinus, so I'd appreciate it if Int would stop making lame attempts to be funny. He kind of has a history of doing that when Merlinus discussion pops up (the whole let's tier grass tile in reference to the IOS post was completely roundabout logic if I've ever heard of roundabout logic. Hell, I'm being nice to Int by allowing such an atrocity to be called "logic".)