Integ's gon' rank the characters!

[Integrity]

You're basing my list on a false premise. I never went for the lowest turncount possible, otherwise Ross wouldn't even be on the list. Marisa would be higher than he would for bringing the Shamshir.

[Jaybee]

Marisa would be higher than he would for bringing the Shamshir.

No. Units don't get credited for their items.

[dondon151]

I'm not even talking specifically about lowest turncount. Skipping parts of maps reduces the chances of forcing a reset in case a character dies. It removes the reliance on the RNG for units to do combat. And so on.

If you give credit to units for using staves and for thieving, then why is flying excluded? For example, how exactly does thieving help you? You don't have to really steal anything (especially after you get Chest Keys). You can argue that stat boosters make units better, but they aren't necessary by any means (and their overall effect on the game is minimal compared to flying anyway). You don't even need healing when you can just buy vulneraries. If you exclude the premise of clearing the game faster by any amount, then the basis on which your ratings are made is trivial. Nothing would matter at all.

[Anouleth]

I'm not sure why Vanessa is three points below Cormag and two points below Tana. If you're taking your time, then Vanessa will be a far higher level and have supports and will kick their asses. If you're not taking your time, then Vanessa's availability lets her help the rush for longer, so she still wins.

[Integrity]

I gave Vanessa points for flying, actually. That's the only thing she gets points for for a while.

Anyway, yes she could stand to go up. She will move up. That's why I have you guys to tell me I'm dumb. <3

[dondon151]

It's not exactly a "saving grace," though. It's like, the one thing that you should use her for.

[Anouleth]

Well, her combat is on par with Gilliam, except that Gilliam has 4 move and Vanessa has 7 move and flies.

And you exagerrated the degree to which her combat sucks. She's bad in C2 and C3. But C4 is monsters, which she's okay against, but also lots of terrain, which makes her good. C5 has lots of archers, but a smart player will keep her safe. C6 is a great opportunity for her to go get the Spider and save the villagers, if you're playing slow. C7, the ballista are easy to avoid, and she's at an advantage purely because of the terrain. So her earlygame isn't that bad.

[Integrity]

I forgot the monsters chapter, actually.

WRT C6: I never found Vanessa was able to touch the spider thanks to Peak Avoid boosting, but I haven't used her in a while.

[dondon151]

She will prevent the spider from moving towards the civilians.

[Integrity]

She will prevent the spider from moving towards the civilians.

Point.

On the other hand, it's an Orion's Bolt and it isn't difficult the reach the spider sans Vanessa, efficiency or no.

[Junkhead]

I think Moulder should get a bit higher. I'm not too sure what to say about his combat when he promotes, but Sage should be a definite path.

[Anouleth]

Bishop is undoubtedly better than Sage. Moulder is unlikely to promote at level 20, and he will go into tier 2 with poor speed and magic. As a result, even with Elfire, his combat against humans is unsalvageable. Whereas he can merrily OHKO monsters with light spells as a Bishop.

[Soren37]

Slayer > than anything else the other magic classes have to throw at you. Sure Mage Knight's get staffs and a horsey, and Valkyries get Light magic and a horsey, but that's the next best one.

[Integrity]

Moulder goes up than Natasha goes up. Convince me of both and it's done, Soul - convince me of neither and nothing happens.

EDIT: And Moulder's promoted combat, besides starting late (promoting a healer) isn't particularly good at 20/1, and if you avoid getting him to 20 it starts at 10/1. At 20/1 Moulder has, on average, 13 MAG (rounded up) - and at 10/1, 8. Subtract a number from each if you go Bishop. Either way, he's not blasting well, and actually worse than Natasha.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Integrity

[dondon151]

He has earlier join time, higher base level, and higher staff rank.

[Integrity]

He has earlier join time, higher base level, and higher staff rank.

And neither one has anything of an endgame to note. The higher staff rank doesn't mean anything until you get bigger sticks and by then Natasha's gonna have the rank to use them anyway. Higher level doesn't mean too much when his blasting potential is between mediocre and poor anyway when he promotes, so the levels don't really help anything but his durability. The extra four chapters he gets to peddle his wares (in which he's not 100% necessary but certainly helpful) nets him the extra half point.

[Anouleth]

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that Bishop!Moulder had great combat or anything, just that he's better than Sage!Moulder. Obviously you're not using him for fighting, but they both heal the same. Unless Moulder is a high enough level that the +1 magic gives him an extra point of staff range or whatever. I know I put an Energy Ring on L'arachel once just for more staff range.

[Junkhead]

Moulder goes up than Natasha goes up. Convince me of both and it's done, Soul - convince me of neither and nothing happens.

EDIT: And Moulder's promoted combat, besides starting late (promoting a healer) isn't particularly good at 20/1, and if you avoid getting him to 20 it starts at 10/1. At 20/1 Moulder has, on average, 13 MAG (rounded up) - and at 10/1, 8. Subtract a number from each if you go Bishop. Either way, he's not blasting well, and actually worse than Natasha.

Aside from what Dondon mentioned, there's the fact he isn't relying to much on someone to defend him, unlike Natasha, Moulder has pretty good durability for a magic user. Along with that, include the fact he can support Vanessa while she is less likely to be fighting.

His combat is easily better as a Sage than Natasha's, not to mention easier to get to 20/0. That is, if you're willing to give him an Elfire, which is highly recommendable due to his high Con. And sine he starts with a C rank in Anima, it's much easier to S-Rank him in Anima.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Soul

[Anouleth]

Aside from what Dondon mentioned, there's the fact he isn't relying to much on someone to defend him, unlike Natasha, Moulder has pretty good durability for a magic user. Along with that, include the fact he can support Vanessa while she is less likely to be fighting.

His combat is easily better as a Sage than Natasha's, not to mention easier to get to 20/0. That is, if you're willing to give him an Elfire, which is highly recommendable due to his high Con. And sine he starts with a C rank in Anima, it's much easier to S-Rank him in Anima.

If Natasha or Moulder get attacked, you're doing it wrong. And Moulder still has horrible luck, so everything has crit on him. He's not really more durable than Natasha since he risks dying in one hit.

The Moulder/Vanessa support does not exist. It's too slow and too clunky to keep going. Vanessa likes having lots of durability, but only because she needs it when she flies off to kick ass. Unless Moulder takes a lesson in swimming and rock climbing, he may as well be on the moon for all the good he'll do her. The same goes for getting Moulder to S-Rank - unless we feel like waiting around until the end of time for him to get S-Rank, he won't get it. Not that he's good with Excalibur either, since it only has 36 effective mt, the same as Aura (Aura is heavier, but he should kill in one hit anyway).

[BBM]

For what it's worth, Vanessa makes keeping Ross alive in his joining chapter far easier. She's near useless in the next chapter, but in Chapter 4, there are no axes, and she makes recruiting Lute quicker. She can probably get a level or two here. Chapter 5 is pretty bad for her, but she can get to the far away Villages quickly if you can keep her away from Archers. There are a few in this chapter, though. The next chapter is better, because while her combat still sucks balls, she helps to get the Orion's Bolt if you're playing it slow. In Chapter 7, she can drop Seth and Eirika over the hills and shave off more than 5 turns, which is pretty big. In Chapter 8, the enemies aren't so bad, but her Mt. sucks, and there's a few Knights roaming around. 'Course, only Ephraim, Eirika, Seth, and the Armorslayer are ORKOing them. Then Tana comes in the next chapter, and honestly, I can't see Vanessa at higher than level 6 unless we fed her kills, because she gets 2RKOd by everything in the beginning, and has pretty meh accuracy fighting back.

However, I'd say a point up for flying utility. That Chapter 7 contribution is big. Efficiency or no, no one likes taking longer on a chapter for no reason.

[Integrity]

For what it's worth, Vanessa makes keeping Ross alive in his joining chapter far easier. She's near useless in the next chapter, but in Chapter 4, there are no axes, and she makes recruiting Lute quicker. She can probably get a level or two here. Chapter 5 is pretty bad for her, but she can get to the far away Villages quickly if you can keep her away from Archers. There are a few in this chapter, though. The next chapter is better, because while her combat still sucks balls, she helps to get the Orion's Bolt if you're playing it slow. In Chapter 7, she can drop Seth and Eirika over the hills and shave off more than 5 turns, which is pretty big. In Chapter 8, the enemies aren't so bad, but her Mt. sucks, and there's a few Knights roaming around. 'Course, only Ephraim, Eirika, Seth, and the Armorslayer are ORKOing them. Then Tana comes in the next chapter, and honestly, I can't see Vanessa at higher than level 6 unless we fed her kills, because she gets 2RKOd by everything in the beginning, and has pretty meh accuracy fighting back.

However, I'd say a point up for flying utility. That Chapter 7 contribution is big. Efficiency or no, no one likes taking longer on a chapter for no reason.

There you are.

8.0 for shaving a few turns off C7 and - admittedly - making C1 possible? That still looks like a round 7 to me, even with my personal bias towards her.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

If Natasha or Moulder get attacked, you're doing it wrong. And Moulder still has horrible luck, so everything has crit on him. He's not really more durable than Natasha since he risks dying in one hit.

Right. But with that, you also clarify that Moulder isn't seeing Enemy Phases coming from Mymidons & Mercenaries. I could think of lolArchers, but it's highly unlikely for them to score a critical.

Moulder > Natasha for avaibility/level/rank/stats lead, Natasha's easily winning on critical Avo & Avo, which is pretty good. But I wouldn't consider her better, she's light magic-locked upon promotion and is slightly harder to get to 20/0.

[Anouleth]

Right. But with that, you also clarify that Moulder isn't seeing Enemy Phases coming from Mymidons & Mercenaries. I could think of lolArchers, but it's highly unlikely for them to score a critical.

Moulder > Natasha for avaibility/level/rank/stats lead, Natasha's easily winning on critical Avo & Avo, which is pretty good. But I wouldn't consider her better, she's light magic-locked upon promotion and is slightly harder to get to 20/0.

Neither should see any enemy phases. However, I was addressing a guy that thought their durability was important (mistake no. 1) and that Moulder's durability was better than Natasha's (mistake no. 2).

And Moulder's slight statistical lead is not relevant, either. All it does is give slightly better range on staves and more Physic healing. Neither are realistically going to see combat. Moulder wins, but that's more by virtue of 'his level is higher and he exists in Chapter 2/3/4, she doesn't' rather than him having better stats or being better at anything, ever. Natasha is probably actually slightly better post-promotion because she gets a pony and he doesn't, making for more flexible staff use and even minor rescue-drop utility.

[Integrity]

Moving forward, straight ahead:

GILLIAM

Gills is a controversial bastard. I, actually, find him to be a more than usable unit in the first couple (eight) chapters (except C7 notably) thanks to being able to very simply stonewall. On the other hand, if your pace ever crawls beyond "turtle", he's dropping significantly in usefulness. The easy way to look at Gilliam is as a tougher Garcia who doesn't hit as hard and gets doubled by everybody who isn't weighed down. Really, they fill the same early tank+chipper niche if you don't want Seth nakedtanking or blicking everything, since Seth only has the speeds of "rape" and "ignore them".

Gilliam, hilariously, starts with 3 SPD. This means that a base Gilliam (with a 30% growth, incidentally higher than Garcia's) cannot double anything, ever, until he procs SPD. This means that even with Loldiers, Gilliam will never accidentally kill a unit you meant for him to chip unless he happens to crit (unlikely, but possible). This actually makes him a better tank in some situations, because he'll never be overwhelmed by his own luck if he's holding a chokepoint, but that's nitpicking for his benefit. Now, his durability is actually something to speak of. He starts with a whopping 9 DEF and a 55% growth, meaning he actually faces quite a lot of tink!s from everything but axers - which constitute a good portion of the early game. His RES is as shitty as you expect and his SPD is as poor as I've already said, but at least he gets tink!ed quite a lot before you phase him out.

When does he get phased out? What's his window of questionable usefulness? Frankly, I consider Gilliam to be most useful in indoors maps, but that means C3 and 8 in total and C3 has enemies spaced enough Franz can tank them. Or you already have Garcia for that. C5 he can fairly readily take the left path on his own. 9 Ephraim can possibly see some use by Gilliam - and let's not even consider the level disadvantage Gills is riding by this point - except for one crucial factor:

Kyle.

Even forgetting Franz who learns to crush Gilliam about five levels in, Kyle utterly phases Gilliam out when he arrives with his higher MOV and far better offense and not being Lancelocked. Kyle, despite his high DEF, actually has a poor growth - so therefore Gilliam's 55% growth ought to help him against Kyle, right? Except Gilliam's growth won't have time to kick in due to being outsped all over the maps.

So where's that leave us? If you need a slow wall to hide people behind in the first eight, Gilliam is your man. If you need somebody to get rescued and Seth isn't nearby, Gilliam is utterly perfect for the job since he gets doubled by everything anyway. For any other job imaginable, Garcia beats him handily. Once C9 rolls around, Kyle usurps him like some kinda Mexican for $2 an hour. At some point during all this, Franz passes him in everything and waves because he's that awesome.

4.0

HOWEVER

ACHTUNG

I'm torn as to where he stands with Syrene. I think 3.5 and 4.0 are fine for the two of them, but is Gilliam's potential contribution in C5/8 > Syrene's in C18/20?

[Junkhead]

Gilliam doesn't really get doubled by anything but the uncommon 7 AS Brigands, which rarely appear at Ch 2. Oh yeah, Myrms & Mercs who do laughable damage against him.

I think his damage is only good for the first six chapters. During his arrival, his offense is actually pretty good, he is only facing WTD against Fighters, but it certainly is useful considering Franz isn't waiting an Enemy Phase to get 2HKO'd by Fighters. And he certainly proves to be of good use during Ch 4 by killing the monster reinforcements at the North side of the map, not that I consider him getting kills of his own, but instead, weakening them so Colm, Neimi and/or Ross could get some of the kills.

If I were to tell you to get him slightly higher, I just know that would be more of a personal preference. So no, I think he's alright where he is in the scoreboard due to him turtling.