HHM List of Utility and Non-Optimal Units: Efficiency Based

[Mekkah]

All I see is that it places less weight on join chapters. Dorcas is useful for more than 12. He has 13, 13x, 14 and 15. Well, he's only useful in 15 if you play it properly, rather than putting Hector on the throne and pressing end turn.

[CATS]

26 isn't even a seize/defeat boss/defeat enemy chapter, it's Defend. Bartre, Rebecca > Louise.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

I agree.

Someone should make an optimal deployment list for every chapter. I have no idea when we're using, say, Heath and Fiora, and who they would have be kicking off the team, so it's difficult to argue their position.

If some of our characters get reasonably RNG screwed (Defining "reasonably" there sounds horrible, though; let's hope for clear-cut scenarios! >_>), does anyone there's a chance of any non-optimal units seeing play? If so, we probably need a tier between optimal and non-optimal for 'Optimal if the RNG is mean" or something.

Also, we only get 2 Knights Crests in HHM, meaning if we want to use Oswin and all 3 Cavaliers someone has to wait all the way until Chapter 28 to get the second Earth Seal. That's only 2 chapters before Hector's promotion, and then Hector gets a map where you can only bring 2 people counting Hector. Since we're trying for low turn count I'm assuming it's Oswin that is going to be left in the dust? In which case Hector > Oswin looks pretty clear IMO.

[Psych]

What about Canas? He's the only one with Luna utility till Endgame, and at least can help to 2-shot some bosses.

[Mekkah]

Canas needs a significant mag increase from his base to become anything close to a bosskiller, which means he has to be trained. It's not impossible to train a 5 mov unit with 1-2 range, not at all, but there's limited opportunity, and plenty of other candidates.

[Psych]

So Luna's resistance negation doesn't matter? Or (even thought the hit sucks) Eclipse or his ability to (semi) tank via Nos? I mean, I know his move sucks, but compared to the other units, he has more specialty weapons and the ability to move normally in the desert. He's also probably the only person other than Athos to be able to 1 final round the boss. Not to mention he comes in a chapter with an arena. Hello at least getting to the team's current level.

Erk is higher than him, whom let's see, has the same move, same staff rank after promo, range, 2 (3 after Pris's promotion) others competing in his weapon type, gets only a mere 3, 3.5 chapters before him (disregarding Lyn mode) , and is beaten in everything except maybe speed and supports. I don't exactly see Canas being bad, and if by utility, we mean how fast we can clear chapters, I see Canas as very helpful towards clearing the chapters.

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Mekkah]

Luna does damage the same as his magic. Not worth it if his mag isn't trained.

Arena doesn't matter. If you don't understand why, you should not be posting.

[Psych]

No, I'm saying that since 19x was visited, he should be at least level 12 by the time he gets Luna, while Erk at the same level has 3 magic less than him. So once the enemies start having double digit resistance, or against a boss like Limstella, Erk will start tinking without an Elfire, while Canas can chop a considerable amount off, with or without doubling. How is it that Canas is the one with a Mag problem? Sure, Canas and Erk both have Con issues, but Erk's 5 speed advantage is eliminated with him weilding an Elfire, which he needs to use to tie Canas in attack.

The point I was using about the arena, is that it's not hard to level him in, he doesn't require a unit slot in the chapter he's recruited in to use it, and if you resent spending one, maybe two turns, not that life threatening, you can use Oswin or Marcus to wall and have him attack the pirates at range.

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Rodykitty]

You need to consider what he can do upon recruitment (other than using the arena) before I can consider him optimal.

[Psych]

Don't the earlier post say to disregard the joining chapter? I'm saying anything Erk can do, he can do better. Want Erk to safely two-range the pirates? Canas can do it. Want Erk to wall the Elfire mage or Nosferatu Shaman in the corner? Canas can do it. Don't want to take Lucius or Erk (your only attacking Magic at that chapter) into battle? Canas doesn't take a slot. I can't see how Erk is being shown he's clearly better without a massive Lyn-mode favoritism, or the robe or ring, which probably won't be used to get Lyn a gem.

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Rodykitty]

Don't the earlier post say to disregard the joining chapter.

Ah, yeah...

In the chapter right afterward.

[Psych]

Since it's make more sense to send Erk and Canas to the left because of their defense, Erk has massive WTD, against the whole left side of the map. Let's say they're both at Canas's base. Erk's losing everything but speed, and tying in HP. Again, the only thing Erk's got for him is his speed, supports, and Lyn-mode.

Not to mention, Canas gets Fenrir (or potentially his strongest weapon, Luna) long before Erk gets Fimbulvetr.

Hell, he even gets the S-rank Dark tome a couple of turns before Ursula's room opens.

Hello Annie, everything Erk can do, Canas can do better.

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Rodykitty]

Again, the only thing Erk's got for him is his speed, supports, and Lyn-mode.

And a 3 chapter lead (ignoring joining chapter) where Erk is having utility that Canas cannot.

Completely disregard Canas vs. Erk, because it's not doing much to show me that Canas is optimal. Canas needs to be fundamental for utility, rather than a second string in order to be optimal, and what's what needs to be proven, not whether he's better than Erk or not.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Ilyana

[Psych]

But then how is Erk better for optimality? Sure he can help 1-round some generics, or armor, which others might be having trouble with. And if you're thinking of using him for boss killing, all bosses between him and Canas are on throne, which only add to their resistance. They're also mounted or armored, thereby being weak against the lord weapons, which they could simply use to get the kill and level, helping to get Geitz, or hell, have Marcus do it.

What I'm asking is how is a unit who's better than one higher up, and more able to contribute to the team better and help clear chapters faster, considered less optimal?

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Rodykitty]

Probably because Erk is much more likely to be fielded thanks to his superior conditions. I don't know the exact details since I rarely debate FE7.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Ilyana

[Psych]

If by superior conditions, you mean competition in the form of Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca, I laugh there. Of course he'd be fielded over them. What I'm saying is that the utility he gives, that being his high attack due to enemies low resistance along with range thus being able to clear a path to the seize point quicker, the previous three are just as fragile as him, the hand axe has half the number of uses, and Rebecca has no player phase.

Canas beats both those points, and his only new competition for fielding, over those Erk was competing with are: Lyn (who should be fielded if we want Geitz, Florina (who should probably also be fielded due to flight, but then probably dropped over favor of Fiora), Sain, Kent, Wil, Raven, and Lucius.

Sure Lucius' Light helps, and so do more cavs, but you already had Lowen and Marcus. Raven's on the fence, due to how you raised the fighters and Guy, and again, I laugh at Wil. The only reason Erk is getting fielded in those early chapters, and probably at most up to C 25, is because he has less competition. Canas will be better than most of his competition for the overall rest of the game.

And again if you insist Luna, Eclipse and Nosferatu aren't considered utility, he also can get Restore and Torch (I suppose if you wanna go all the way, Physic too) after promo, but I'll concede Erk would get the staves too. Only he'll never touch those tomes or their side-effects.

Edited May 26, 2010 by psychout50

[Rodykitty]

If by superior conditions, you mean competition in the form of Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca, I laugh there. Of course he'd be fielded over them. What I'm saying is that the utility he gives, that being his high attack due to enemies low resistance along with range thus being able to clear a path to the seize point quicker, the previous three are just as fragile as him, the hand axe has half the number of uses, and Rebecca has no player phase.

The only reason Erk is getting fielded in those early chapters, and probably at most up to C 25, is because he has less competition.

And this is why Erk is in optimal.

Canas beats both those points, and his only new competition for fielding, over those Erk was competing with are: Lyn (who should be fielded if we want Geitz, Florina (who should probably also be fielded due to flight, but then probably dropped over favor of Fiora), Sain, Kent, Wil, Raven, and Lucius.

Canas' competition is much stronger as to who to field. You have several units that may have been trained from Lyn's mode and now want to begin fielding, as well as Raven, and there is still Erk and Lucius themselves.

Canas will be better than most of his competition for the overall rest of the game.

Being better doesn't necessarily make you optimal though.

[Psych]

And this is why Erk is in optimal.

So Erk is optimal because the majority of the team around him isn't as good?

Canas' competition is much stronger as to who to field. You have several units that may have been trained from Lyn's mode and now want to begin fielding, as well as Raven, and there is still Erk and Lucius themselves.

Being better doesn't necessarily make you optimal though.

How? Isn't that the point of being optimal?

What I'm saying here, is that you can now get rid of the fighters, Wil, Guy, Rebecca, Lowen, Matthew when chests or an item that needs stealing isn't around, and since you'd probably have made Lyn-mode optimal here, only one of the cavaliers would probably be on target with the team, as well as having two healers be redundant, that makes Canas' competition for deployment:

Eliwood

Hector

Marcus

Oswin

Serra (Due to Lyn-mode)

Raven

Lyn

Lucius

Sain or Kent

You could even drop Marcus here. But Erk's competition before Chapter 16 is:

Eliwood

Hector

Serra

Oswin

Marcus

Lowen

And Erk has equal if not better utility over:

Maybe Bartre over Dorcas for Karla later

Maybe Rebecca

And Maybe Guy

Priscilla probably won't be fielded except in C 17 to recruit Raven, due to Serra's Lyn-mode bonuses.

The only reason Erk is getting more field time over Canas is not because he has better ability, but because those around him have less compared to those around Canas. The whole point of utility would be to have better units to be able to clear chapters quicker. That's why you'd want to trade Erk in for Canas, who's got better atributes, be it weapon type, special tomes, stats, or something else.

Edited May 27, 2010 by psychout50

[Colonel M]

What's up with the sudden sandbagging with Erk? Assuming we aren't going for the White Gem (Blue Gem is more than acceptable here), Erk is at least coming in at a decent level. Even at Level 6, Erk is providing positive utility. Only Marcus, maybe Oswin, and maybe Hector are good at single hits. Armor Knights are tough as hell to kill without pulling out Wolf Beil, which is likely needed for up to Chapter 20 (Hector doubling is iffy). Erk's utility comes from targeting Res instead of Def. Whereas he has 15 Atk with the Thunder tome, a 6 Lowen has 15 Atk with Iron Lance. We have Armor Knights with 10 fucking Def / Res gap. Nomads and Mercenaries have 4. Erk is easily outdamaging Lowen in this regard, thus he seems optimal in certain instances. The only time where Erk's shakiness (a.k.a. his durability) will ever get in the way is if:

- You are playing the game wrong

- Defend maps

Erk's 2 range is what's keeping his durability top notch; well, to the point where he can take a hit. Erk is providing much more utility than useless shitheads like Bartre if he isn't going to be trained or Rebecca. I'd even go back to argue Louise doing more than those two ever could, but then I'd get the dumb harp on "forced period = neutral", which isn't even a true stance in general since you can be forced and still contribute to be a negative overall.

Canas's biggest problem is he's lacking some earlygame utility that Erk has. While Erk's is limited to some extents, he is contributing enough in his chapters to at least make a difference (Armor Knights and single good hits on Cavaliers is reason enough). Canas also requires a forced promotion to be "useful" since he will always have 1 Spd point less with Flux unpromoted. Canas also has "meh" magic to even utilize Luna. 12 levels later we finally have 15 Atk with Luna. The only time it's necessarily needed are against heavily durable units.

In fact, I don't even see when Luna is that great against bosses. Most of them have 2 range anyway, so the argument of taking a counterattack is out. Some of the bosses aren't even that durable to the point where it is necessary.

If by superior conditions, you mean competition in the form of Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca, I laugh there.

I don't see what's so hilariously bad about Dorcas, or have you been playing NM too much?

[Psych]

I'm not arguing that Erk is bad, I'm arguing Canas is better under these circumstances. Canas is getting better stats, the insane crit from Luna versus 10 from Thunder, the entire negation of resistance from Luna also, the added effects of Eclipse (yes, it does have shoddy hit) and Nosferatu (allowing him to tank better than Erk could ever wish), and why he should get a deployment spot over Erk.

At level 12, I'll give you 11, a reasonable level he should be at when he gets Luna, he's doing 12 damage to anything regardless of defenses without doubling, not to mention a critical.

I'm saying Dorcas, Bartre, and Rebecca are just as fragile, and while the fighters have more HP, they're not exactly edging out a spot against Erk, nor is Rebecca doing nearly as much damage. Canas is a bit bulkier and not to mention stronger, thereby helping to clear chapters quicker the point of optimality, and the tomes definitely give him utility. He's the only person other than Athos able to 1-round the final boss, look at his freaking monopoly over a whole third of the Trinity of Magic.

Edited May 27, 2010 by psychout50

[dondon151]

I'm not arguing that Erk is bad, I'm arguing Canas is better under these circumstances. Canas is getting better stats, the insane crit from Luna versus 10 from Thunder, the entire negation of resistance from Luna also, the added effects of Eclipse (yes, it does have shoddy hit) and Nosferatu (allowing him to tank better than Erk could ever wish), and why he should get a deployment spot over Erk.

Have you looked at Canas's AS before he promotes? It's terrible. Erk consistently outdamages Canas before promotion and by the time Canas does promote, the offensive lead is trivial because you'll have access to so many other good combat units. The other dark tomes in the game are 95% useless. Luna only does more damage against enemies with more res than Canas has magic. Luna is not even the best option against bosses by a substantial amount, ever. Nosferatu prevents Canas from doubling enemies, and poor offense is the bane of efficiency.

Canas is a bit bulkier and not to mention stronger, thereby helping to clear chapters quicker the point of optimality, and the tomes definitely give him utility.

False. A 12/0 Erk wins 3 HP and loses 1 def to 8/0 Canas, and has +1 def on promotion.

You don't seem to understand the notion of an efficient playthrough. The player is not bending over backwards, finding ways to make subpar units usable. The player couldn't care less about all of the trivial benefits offered by access to dark magic because he will never find any use for them, anyway.

Edited May 27, 2010 by dondon151

[Psych]

But when Canas and Erk are tied in level, Canas clearly out shines Erk, again in almost everything except speed. I'm admitting that, that's the point of mages.

Canas's WTA against anima is more prevalent than Erk's against light. Look at practically any map, more mages than monks. His str, skill, def, and even res, again at the same level are better than Erk. Erk is not only outclassed by Canas, but by Pent. Someone also lower than him. I'm questioning why he's so high, when the reason is because he seems better early game due to most of the people early game being outclassed by him. He can do more damage than Eliwood in early game even. But Canas ends up, with his stats, weapons, and WTA able to out class Erk, and get rid of enemies more efficiently not requiring a partner in case he gets hit to heal him or to finish off his spoils. Erk may have utility. Canas just has better utility than Erk and can outclass and replace him very easily.

[dondon151]

But when Canas and Erk are tied in level, Canas clearly out shines Erk, again in almost everything except speed. I'm admitting that, that's the point of mages.

See, this is exactly what's wrong. Canas and Erk will never be tied in level because Erk starts out at a higher level than Canas. Furthermore, what unit archetypes are "supposed" to do are irrelevant; what's important is what they can do, and Erk can do mostly everything better than Canas.

[Psych]

If the point of utility and being optimal, is being graded on how well you can clear the chapter, and Erk can clear it, sure he may take some hits here and there. He might get around 4-HKO. But he can still clear the chapter very efficiently. He just takes a turn or two away from the healers, when they could be healing someone more fragile, a pegasus, another healer, a lord, or could be fighting, getting rid of an enemy to help get the team closer to the end. He might not need stat boosters, but they can't hurt. He contributes positively, even more positive than say some one like Rebecca, or Dart. He can team up with a few others to kill the boss, he can pull of a heal here or there once promoted, and can crit every now and then with Thunder, it's just a little rare.

Then you have Canas, he might join later, and doesn't gain Lyn-mode utility. He has better defense, allowing a 5, maybe 6 depending on enemy stat, HKO. But again he also contributes effectively. Only because has that Nosferatu, he doesn't take a healer's turn allowing them to do something more useful. He doesn't need the stat boosters as much though, because he has more balanced stats, suffering only from low con and speed. His Luna allows him to pull off almost twice as many crits as Erk, and not only negate resistance, thereby doing maybe 15,18 dmg to something Erk might be tinking. His Eclipse, with low hit, could devastate a boss. He can kill the boss himself, while Erk requires others or hope of a crit to do that. His stats outshine Erk. The dark tomes quirks allow one to clear the chapter faster than one who does not use them.

I'm not arguing Canas up, I'm arguing Erk down. Anything Erk can do Canas can do better, with dark magic, and not relying on others to help him with it.

[Rodykitty]

Erk will not be leaving optimal.