HHM List of Utility and Non-Optimal Units: Efficiency Based

[Life]

I fail to see why Lucius isn't in optimal. He's got high Mag, Lyn mode, promoted with C Staves (Physic spam right off the bat since we can buy them on like Turn 2 of Kinship's Bond when using Ninian) and if you're going to argue that we're spending turns recruiting him, I'd like to know exactly WHAT a level 5 Raven is doing in Whereabouts Unknown that no other unit can do.

If we're going for efficiency, I'd love to know why Lucius can't have an early promotion and be a better healer than Serra (he's got 7 base and 60 growth vs. Serra's 2 base and 50 growth).

[Rodykitty]

It's likely similar to the Canas situation, Lucius starts competing for deployment slots in order to be considered an optimal unit. This doesn't mean he's bad, just not optimal (there is a difference).

[Junkhead]

I'm not arguing Canas up, I'm arguing Erk down. Anything Erk can do Canas can do better, with dark magic, and not relying on others to help him with it.

Canas has an Atk and Defence lead to Erk, but Erk's offense is pretty good once he promotes, he can double alot of things, assuming he hits Res, he's be likely ORKO'ing most enemies, Canas isn't doubling much enemies, his supports aren't too viable, Erk at least gets to support Priscilla for Atk and Crit, which is pretty helpful on his easily-screwed Mag.

I fail to see why Lucius isn't in optimal. He's got high Mag, Lyn mode, promoted with C Staves (Physic spam right off the bat since we can buy them on like Turn 2 of Kinship's Bond when using Ninian) and if you're going to argue that we're spending turns recruiting him, I'd like to know exactly WHAT a level 5 Raven is doing in Whereabouts Unknown that no other unit can do.

If we're going for efficiency, I'd love to know why Lucius can't have an early promotion and be a better healer than Serra (he's got 7 base and 60 growth vs. Serra's 2 base and 50 growth).

I agree on that too, but I don't really complain about his current position. And Physics can't be used until a B rank in staves, but his healing has to be pretty useful, only lower than Priscilla's mounted healing (And Physic) and Pent's A rank in staves.

[Life]

It's likely similar to the Canas situation, Lucius starts competing for deployment slots in order to be considered an optimal unit. This doesn't mean he's bad, just not optimal (there is a difference).

It's similar but we should somewhat punish Canas for forcing us to go to a Gaiden chapter. Or at least, I think so. If this list is alluding to a bare bones efficiency run, then Canas has a bit of a problem as he has to make up 5 turns to be equal with everyone else.

My point is that Lucius is a better candidate for early promotion than most, thanks to his ability to use Physics right off the bat. If we early promote Canas, he can use Mend. Yippie. Same thing for Erk but toss in the word Heal instead of Mend. Since Lucius gains Physic right away, we don't have to worry about move differences since he's usually got 8 range on the staff at 14/1, a level that he can be sitting at after Dragon's Gate (our first shot at Physic).

Basically, for a little bit of work, you get a very early Physic user who can also fight. I've never taken any economic classes but I'd call that a really good risk/reward case.

[Junkhead]

Canas starts out with an E rank in staves upon promotion, he won't be able to use a Mend staff.

[dondon151]

Physic is B rank, not C.

[Rodykitty]

If Lucius is going to go into optimal, it won't be because of healing. While Staff rank on early promo is cool, I don't see this guaranteeing Lucius being fielded.

[Interceptor]

I don't see Lucius as optimal deployment. He's no better than Erk, who will be higher leveled and around for longer. Erk fills the need for a 1-2 range guy who hits RES: the Knight-smasher.

Staves on promo is not a big deal, since this is not Ranked and access to the staff CEXP pool doesn't matter. Pris and Serra have healing covered, Erk will eventually get there regardless, and there's always Pent.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

...Well, Canas shouldn't move into utility, and Erk's not moving out of utility because of his usefulness early on. It might be questionable whether Erk makes the optimal team after that, though, and if he doesn't he probably has some space he could feasibly move down. I'm not actually sure Erk makes the optimal team long term. Hector, the 2 healers, Raven, Marcus and the Cavaliers is already 8 units, and we also have Oswin, Eliwood, and fliers and Thieves to consider, and then Lyn occasionally forces herself in, and Dart takes up a space in his joining chapter and Geitz's chapter, and then later on we also have Ninils, Pent, and Harken, all of which are coming before Erk even if we trained him, and we can only take more than 12 units in 3 chapters and more than once we get forced down to 10 and even 8.

What is the long-term optimal team, anyways?

[Mekkah]

I am not sure if double healer is optimal in all cases, and Eliwood certainly doesn't strike me as optimal.

[Junkhead]

I don't see Lucius as optimal deployment. He's no better than Erk, who will be higher leveled and around for longer. Erk fills the need for a 1-2 range guy who hits RES: the Knight-smasher.

Staves on promo is not a big deal, since this is not Ranked and access to the staff CEXP pool doesn't matter. Pris and Serra have healing covered, Erk will eventually get there regardless, and there's always Pent.

Erk's combat isn't all that, really, he's 1RKO'ing Knights with a Thunder tome until his Mag goes up, his level and avaibility over Lucius shouldn't get him far, he starts out in big map, and it isn't likely for him to get a kill by himself unless he relies on killing leftovers, the only good thing he has over Lucius is Def, but their concrete durability difference isn't too noticeable until Erk promotes or gains many levels.

Lucius' healing may not take him up to optimal, but Serra will actually need to rely more on Mend staves due to her low Mag, and promoting her isn't really worth it, I see her getting obseletted once Pent arrives or Lucius promotes, with a promoted Lucius, you get access to a unit with actually reliable combat and a decent staves rank, not to mention his support speed isn't horribad and actually supports an optimal unit, Raven. His durability problems should be solved with a Dragonshield, I see he should be entitled to it thanks to his unreliable Avo and nonexistant Def.

...Well, Canas shouldn't move into utility, and Erk's not moving out of utility because of his usefulness early on. It might be questionable whether Erk makes the optimal team after that, though, and if he doesn't he probably has some space he could feasibly move down. I'm not actually sure Erk makes the optimal team long term.

Yes it is, it's not like Knights are too rough, Hector is 1RKO'ing easily with Wolf Beil, probably one-shotting, that must've been in NM, don't remember well...but Lucius and Canas actually have better combat against them, Lucius, depite not bearing Anima, has pretty good Atk and reliable AS, Canas has good Atk and good durability, he also comes well-leveled.

I am not sure if double healer is optimal in all cases, and Eliwood certainly doesn't strike me as optimal.

I guess he's up there for contributing on Geitz's recruiment, and assuming that, I don't see Lyndis getting to level-up easily without going through LHM first.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Soul

[Rodykitty]

It might be questionable whether Erk makes the optimal team after that, though, and if he doesn't he probably has some space he could feasibly move down.

This is more of a tier list question. You don't have to be great for the long term to be optimal.

Soul's post

You're thinking too much on how to train units. Pent obsoleting healers later on is actually a good thing for Serra & Priscilla.

[Junkhead]

You're thinking too much on how to train units. Pent obsoleting healers later on is actually a good thing for Serra & Priscilla.

Yes? And why is that a bad thing? Erk doesn't pay out as well as Lucius or Canas, his only advantage is Knight smashing, something he doesn't do without a Thunder tome at base level, I don't see his contribution being any better actually, and the avaibility lead over the other two mages shouldn't prove to be too important, the maps are big enough as to not let him be of much use.

[Rodykitty]

Erk's initial contributions are enough to make him optimal. Smashing an Armor on C16 so that Marcus and Hector can walk through with full move is powerful.

Being the most likely to have the highest level (and consequentially closer to promotion, that first Guiding Ring is low in supply and high in demand) is the long term factor.

Large maps aren't really an issue. Mages have decent move relative to other units in FE7, and maps have such large enemy density that it doesn't stop him from encountering any.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Ilyana

[Junkhead]

Is LHM assumed?

[Rodykitty]

If it's for something like, "Use <x> boss to grind Lucius to level 20", then no.

[Junkhead]

It wasn't for that reason, it was for Lyndis. She may need a few levels to actually be passable by HHM, she is constantly getting WTD'd in there, and not to mention Geitz being up there is because we actually need at least two Lords getting to gather 50 levels from our Lords so we can recruit Geitz.

[Rodykitty]

For normally playing, sure.

For abusing, no.

[Junkhead]

Fair enough. Anyway, Mages have average Mov, and Erk's going to be facing trouble in his joining chapter, Ch 16 and won't be of any good use in Chapters 18, 19 & 19x, I won't mention further chapters, to promote him, you need to level him up first, and he starts at level one, he isn't getting many kills at all for a garanteed early promotion, and by an early promotion, he is garanteed to easily get Mag screwed and have good combat until 20, but after that, he might as well be below average. I agree he is useful against Knights, but the only Knight kills he is entitled to are: One of two from Ch 15 and the first one blocking the entrance at Ch 17, he's just relying on others to weaken enemies so he can kill them afterwards, and his average Mov won't garantee he'll be reaching enemies in such a hurry.

[CATS]

So...

Bartre, Rebecca > Louise.

4 forced chapters > 1, especially on a list that apparently places less weight on joining chapter (with Louise's only forced chapter being her join chapter).

[Mekkah]

I agree that if only the forced chapters work to their advantage, they're better. However, I think Louise has a shot at being optimal for perhaps a few more maps? She and Geitz are likely your only Longbow/Brave Bow users, which makes her a reasonable choice for Cog of Destiny, and in Sands of Time you have so many slots she might as well be free (but fair is fair, she can't reduce your SoT turn count).

[CATS]

In that case, Louise would move up to the upper half of the list, correct? I can't comment on whether she's optimal outside ch 26 or not, but either way, her position needs to be changed (either up if she's optimal outside her join chapter, or down if not).