Wi-fi Tier List

[AstraLunaSol]

Uber:

Sniper

Pally

Overused:

Horseman (Apotrope)

Berseker

Sage=Sorcerer

Swordmaster

Dracoknight

Borderline:

Horseman (No Apotrope)

Underused:

Thief

Bishop

Warrior

Falconknight

Divine Dragons

Neverused:

Hero

Ballistisian

General

Lord

Fire Dragons

Chainey Tier:

Freelancer

Not Promoted:

Everything that isn't promoted.

THIS IS NOW IN ORDER

A suggested list to sort out individual classes, as there are a numerous amount of teams that only use specific classes(The good ones like SM's, HM's etc), leaving the others to rot(Manakete, Freelancer, etc).

This was just a general overview, feel free to debate on bumping or lowering classes.

Minimum Stats:

This list is assuming MINIMUM requirements of stats, for example:

Sage: Max Mag, Def, HP, Spd. Other stats such as Str and Luck are trivial. And Res is generally high since they are a Sage. Though for a Sage, good Luck and Skill help with Swarm.

Pally: Max Str, HP, Def, Spd. As said above stats like Mag and Res are trivial unless of course they are Levin!Pallys, which change the scheme entirely.

These are generally to help the units survival, as a Sage with Max HP, Def and Spd would survive a Berserker using a Brv Axe. And for Pallies Max HP, Spd, and Def help them from being OHKO'd by a forged Poleax.

Edited April 26, 2010 by AstraLunaSol

[Soren9934]

under what rules would this take place?

without aprotrope horsman is clearly not the best for example

sounds about right though in general

Edited April 25, 2010 by BlacknightSoren

[AstraLunaSol]

under what rules would this take place?

without aprotrope horsman is clearly not the best for example

sounds about right though in general

Ah you're right, I should add cards. ._.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Dracoknight above Paladin strikes me as weird... don't people actually do better with Paladins that have capped DEF thanks to the fact that Berserkers quad Dracos while they can't quad Paladins?

Whoops...

Edited April 25, 2010 by Speedwagon

[AstraLunaSol]

Dracoknight above Paladin strikes me as weird... don't people actually do better with Paladins that have capped DEF thanks to the fact that Berserkers quad Dracos while they can't quad Paladins?

*These are not in order.

They aren't in order. >_>

Now they're in order of which I think.

Edited April 25, 2010 by AstraLunaSol

[Soren9934]

if your willing why not make a tier list per map OR lets debate the uses of the following on each map

some units do significantly better on some maps while others don't.

[AstraLunaSol]

if your willing why not make a tier list per map OR lets debate the uses of the following on each map

some units do significantly better on some maps while others don't.

This was really just a general overview of classes, not with corresponding maps. If I have time I'll make lists for maps, maybe. >_>

[Soren9934]

perhaps a few members can get on a chat and thoughroly discuss this

talk to me at Soren9934 for my aim

[geradgerard]

move swordmasters to OU just above Draco.

Paladins to the top of OU.

there's too many BL. these should be classes that can fair in OU fights well enough.

make a UU tier. Warriors and Falcoknights.

Thieves should be moved out of NU.

Make Freelancer UU.

Generals should go in NU.

Lord is definitely NU.

Divine Dragons in UU.

Fire Dragons in NU.

if anyone has any questions about my choices then say so, and i'll write my reasoning.

i have an aim too, if anyone cares. it's cinnabonboy64. >_>

Edited April 25, 2010 by geradgerard

[Meteor]

The top of my list would look vastly different than yours.

Sniper

Berserker

Sage

Horseman (Apotrope)

Paladin

Swordmaster

Dracoknight

Horseman

[AstraLunaSol]

move swordmasters to OU just above Draco.

Paladins to the top of OU.

there's too many BL. these should be classes that can fair in OU fights well enough.

make a UU tier. Warriors and Falcoknights.

Thieves should be moved out of NU.

Make Freelancer UU.

Generals should go in NU.

Lord is definitely NU.

Divine Dragons in UU.

Fire Dragons in NU.

if anyone has any questions about my choices then say so, and i'll write my reasoning.

i have an aim too, if anyone cares. it's cinnabonboy64. >_>

I can see your reasoning quite clearly, actually.

In the UU tier I have no idea how to sort them out however.

The top of my list would look vastly different than yours.

Sniper

Berserker

Sage

Horseman (Apotrope)

Paladin

Swordmaster

Dracoknight

Horseman

.....Explain.

[geradgerard]

i support sniper's being on top. ability to break choke-holes is really important in half the maps. and since we're looking at individual classes and not team set-ups. a single sniper is contributing more than any other single class.

oh and i said paladins to OU because with dazzle they are prone to poleaxe, and with apotrophe (which is at ubers currenty) paladins are prone to crits. if anything, dazzle paladin should be better than apotrophe.

Edited April 25, 2010 by geradgerard

[AstraLunaSol]

i support sniper's being on top. ability to break choke-holes is really important in half the maps. and since we're looking at individual classes and not team set-ups. a single sniper is contributing more than any other single class.

oh and i said paladins to OU because with dazzle they are prone to poleaxe, and with apotrophe (which is at ubers currenty) paladins are prone to crits. if anything, dazzle paladin should be better than apotrophe.

Hmm....Snipers on top.......Lack of stupid 1 range is what's keeping them down. >_>

Ah...I didn't quite get that one.

[Meteor]

Sniper

In a word: Longbow. They're one of the few units who can break a chokepoint. They kill Sages. No weaknesses. I am willing to overlook their lack of 1-range because they never have to step out of the fog to attack.

Berserker

Super high damage. After a Longbow, nothing can survive a hit from a Brave Axe/Poleax. They can walk on water (also great for breaking chokepoints) and they are the best defensive units too. They are the main reason Wi-Fi is not littered with Horsemen and Dracoknights.

Sage = Sorcerer

Warping, healing, chip damage. Crucial on map 6. Without one your units fear retaliation. The downside is their low speed, but thanks to Swarm/Fortify, their position can usually remain hidden. More than one of these guys on a team is pretty dumb, though.

Horseman (Apotrope)

The only (good) unit capable of direct and ranged brave attacks. Highly mobile, but limited counter-attacking potential. They don't really have an ace-in-the-hole like Snipers/Berserkers/Sages.

Paladin

High movement without fear of being killed in a single blow is tremendously useful. They can usually get a counterattack off even with residual damage. Unfortunately they don't double nor OHKO anything and have weapon weaknesses.

Swordmaster

High speed but bad range. ORKOing Sages is nice, but they have no other standout skills.

Dracoknight

The best scouts availible if your opponent isn't packing Berserkers. Their flight makes them one of the sneakiest units, and their only weakness can be negated with an item. Like Paladins, they're unable to double, but have the ability to OHKO another unit.

Horseman

Similar to their Apotrope brethren, but now they fear for Berserkers and Dracoknights. Their lack of effective weaponry actually matters now. Still miles ahead of everything lower, but they're a liability, and they don't pack enough of a punch to offset that.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Meteor

[AstraLunaSol]

Sniper

In a word: Longbow. They're one of the few units who can break a chokepoint. They kill Sages. No weaknesses. I am willing to overlook their lack of 1-range because they never have to step out of the fog to attack.

Berserker

Super high damage. After a Longbow, nothing can survive a hit from a Brave Axe/Poleax. They can walk on water (also great for breaking chokepoints) and they are the best defensive units too. They are the main reason Wi-Fi is not littered with Horsemen and Dracoknights.

Sage = Sorcerer

Warping, healing, chip damage. Crucial on map 6. Without one your units fear retaliation. The downside is their low speed, but thanks to Swarm/Fortify, their position can usually remain hidden. More than one of these guys on a team is pretty dumb, though.

Horseman (Apotrope)

The only (good) unit capable of direct and ranged brave attacks. Highly mobile, but limited counter-attacking potential. They don't really have an ace-in-the-hole like Snipers/Berserkers/Sages.

Paladin

High movement without fear of being killed in a single blow is tremendously useful. They can usually get a counterattack off even with residual damage. Unfortunately they don't double nor OHKO anything and have weapon weaknesses.

Swordmaster

High speed but bad range. ORKOing Sages is nice, but they have no other standout skills.

Dracoknight

The best scouts availible if your opponent isn't packing Berserkers. Their flight makes them one of the sneakiest units, and their only weakness can be negated with an item. Like Paladins, they're unable to double, but have the ability to OHKO another unit.

Horseman

Similar to their Apotrope brethren, but now they fear for Berserkers and Dracoknights. Their lack of effective weaponry actually matters now. Still miles ahead of everything lower, but they're a liability, and they don't pack enough of a punch to offset that.

A few problems I remember with Snipers is their survival depends on the players tactics, as a Draco and/or Pally can swoop around your team and scout them out. Though the Longbow deserves it's praise.

Fair enough.

True, fragility is still a slight issue however. Stupid scouting Dracos

No solid weapon like a Hand axe or a Javelin eh?

Alright to the rest.

[geradgerard]

i question this sage/sorcerer being so high. definitely very useful but they still have survivability problems. i wouldn't put in ubers but at least high OU.

[Meteor]

Sages are definitely the hardest to place because their contribution is to utility more than actually killing the other team. But as you said, their main problem is staying alive. However, by the time your opponent finds your Sage, survivability is pretty trivial. They will rarely be on the front lines like a Horseman/Dracoknight, and will doubtfully be scouted even by accident.

[Soren9934]

sages placement is probably map dependant. they are invaluble on maps 6 5 and 2 but not as on 1 and 4(warping on 4 gets risky quickly).

snipers are probably an all around utility unit, but i honestly have to say its pretty much LONGBOW usage here

oh and more LONGBOW

I think the longbow should get its own tier

[Sylvan]

I used to have a section on this in my guide... I must have gotten rid of it at some stage.

Anyway, I assume from the topic max stats are considered:

Berserker should be lower, reason is simple: 7 movement. They can only hit something with a brave/poleaxe from 7 range. There are only 2 classes they can kill exclusively, those are horsemen and dracoknights, both of which out move berserkers. Horsemen can use apotrope to negate poleaxes, and dracos have access to poleaxes/riders banes, making them a good substitute. Berserkers can't kill sages 1-1. Their crit bonus is negated by their low caps.

Sniper, one of the best classes, high range (even with 7 move) They can break choke points and have no weakness. Their crit bonus allows them good use of umbra.

Paladin, again one of the best classes. They cannot be killed 1-1 by any unit, they can safely choose dazzle with no disadvantages. They can use Gradivus. They have control of the weapon triangle and 10 movement.

Basically, sniper should be top, paladins easily second.

Horsemen are good but suffer from the dazzle/apotrope problem, they are never 100% safe from being killed 1-1. Their movement dominance and 1-2 range braves is good, but not the best. Lower movement than paladins and can't use the longbow.

Sage: You gotta look at this empirically, how many times will a sage win you the game, and how many will it cost you?

Pros: Can warp. Can recover chip damage to high speed units. Can deal high damage from 1-2 range. Can deal damage from 3-10 range with low hit rate. Will usually counterattack a unit that hits it.

Cons: Can be killed 1-1. 6 move. Cannot kill any unit 1-1 (except generals)

I believe it should be considered much the same as a horseman without apotrope. By saying sage is in the highest tier would imply you can make a wifi competitive team out of sages. You can't. You can increase the competitive edge of certain teams on certain maps by using a sage, but even then a sage is not a universal advantage. Normally, sages should be considered on Non-RNG abused teams because they supply a unit who works without draining boosts, but with RNG abuse sages loose their edge dramatically. I'd certainly put them near horsemen without apotrope or swordmasters.

Hero is not borderline. Swap hero and thief and it would look better. I don't need to explain this one do I? 30 speed vs 26.

This is what I would suggest:

Uber:

Sniper

Paladin

Top:

Horseman (Apotrope)

Berseker

High:

Sage/Sorcerer

Swordmaster

Dracoknight

Horseman (No Apotrope)

Borderline:

Thief

Ballistisian

Freelancer

Bishop

Sub-par:

Falconknight

Warrior

Hero

General

Neverused:

Lord

Divine Dragons

Fire Dragons

Not Promoted:

Everything that isn't promoted.

EDIT:

This is my main way of looking at things. The current tier list has Berseker and Sage above horseman (apotrope) But I'm certain I could beat a team of berserkers and sages with a team of horsemen on the majority of maps. Adding berserkers to the team of horsemen would make a very limited impact on the performance on the team of horsemen.

I was going to make a tier list of teams, by permuting out all possible (feasible) counterpicks and ranking them on every map. I never finished it, because I didn't think anyone would read it. But if people want I can finish it off sometime and post the results.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Sylvan

[geradgerard]

i think it would be better if we just looked at the individual class, and try not to mention the team issues too much. that sage point is good though. oh and btw. without dazzle, every class is never 100% guaranteed to live 1-vs-1. so HM aren't the only ones.

any problems i have so far are:

Paladins under uber...

idk about uber. definitely a very good class, but they don't really bring anything offensively. the reason sniper, beserker, and horsemen (apo) are highly rated is because they're good offensively, but still have the ability to survive 1-vs-1 like a paladin can.

Generals should go in NU. they're overshadowed by warriors too much. thus making them NU.

personally i don't like the existence of this BL tier.

and idk why we have this non-promoted tier. it should just be taken out at this point.

oh and go ahead and make the team tier list. it will be hard trying to get all the possible, common teams. if your going to post it, just remember that people will be questioning things and giving their own opinions. something i don't like with people making tier lists is that they can be too biased in making it. hopefully you and ASL won't be.

Edited April 25, 2010 by geradgerard

[Sylvan]

idk about uber. definitely a very good class, but they don't really bring anything offensively. the reason sniper, beserker, and horsemen (apo) are highly rated is because they're good offensively, but still have the ability to survive 1-vs-1 like a paladin can.

The way I worked it is to look at berserkers and paladins side-by-side. It basically boils down to: when will the berserker's extra attack come in handy over a paladin's extra move? Fairly rarely (dracos, which are limited to 1 per side) . Likewise moving over water. Berserkers can only break water chokepoints. Normal chokepoints, berserkers fare exactly the same as paladins. Berserkers are good, but I'd imagine it would be more frequently advantageous to have a paladin. A paladin can usually replace a berserker, but it rarely works the other way around.

[dondon151]

By saying sage is in the highest tier would imply you can make a wifi competitive team out of sages.

That's not what the highest tier implies at all. I'm assuming geradgerard is getting his inspiration from the Smogon Pokemon tier list. A Pokemon in uber tier does not suggest that you can make a competitive team out of only that Pokemon. If I made a team of exclusively Kyogre, it might be almost completely walled by a Quagsire. If I made a team of exclusively Rayquaza, it would get beat down with CB'd Ice Shards. A team of only Ho-Oh would lose 50% HP per switch in if Steath Rock is set up. (Now, if I made a team of exclusively Arceus, it would be amazing, but Arceus is Arceus.)

The tiers are supposed to based on usage statistics. Will you see a sage on every team? On 80% of all teams? 60%? There is a cutoff line that will determine whether or not sage is uber (or at least, OU). Uber is supposed to be a ban tier from OU, but there's no problem with defining every tier by usage statistics. Regardless of the fact that a team of 5 sages might as well be an automatic loss, if most players use a sage on their team, then it is in the highest tier.

[Rodykitty]

For WiFi's limitations, I am impressed and fascinated by how much its metagame has developed from what was first thought of it.

[Sylvan]

That's not what the highest tier implies at all. I'm assuming geradgerard is getting his inspiration from the Smogon Pokemon tier list. A Pokemon in uber tier does not suggest that you can make a competitive team out of only that Pokemon. If I made a team of exclusively Kyogre, it might be almost completely walled by a Quagsire. If I made a team of exclusively Rayquaza, it would get beat down with CB'd Ice Shards. A team of only Ho-Oh would lose 50% HP per switch in if Steath Rock is set up. (Now, if I made a team of exclusively Arceus, it would be amazing, but Arceus is Arceus.)

I know nothing of the pokemon tier list, but what I meant to explain was how sages are a liability. In a 1-1 fight sages don't win battles. On a team of 5 units with 1 unit as the sage, you'll usually want to have the sage deal the finisher or be the scout. Both cases, the sage is well within combat range. If the sage was combat viable, then it would have to be able to stand up to a 1-1 fight. Its utility comes at the cost of an extra combat unit. I know of a few tactics that rely on scouting an opponents sage to win. Indeed, in many fights having 4 units + sage can mean you'll lose the overall battle even if you scout first. Where as a team of 5 combat units that scouts first should win nearly all time (assuming no 1-1 KO's).

The tiers are supposed to based on usage statistics. Will you see a sage on every team? On 80% of all teams? 60%? There is a cutoff line that will determine whether or not sage is uber (or at least, OU). Uber is supposed to be a ban tier from OU, but there's no problem with defining every tier by usage statistics. Regardless of the fact that a team of 5 sages might as well be an automatic loss, if most players use a sage on their team, then it is in the highest tier.

This is the kind of data I was talking about gathering before, I may do this by next week or so. But basically, the sage's utility usually isn't worth the liability of having a sage. A team of 4 units + sage is really only needed to exploit map 6. Indeed, the only reason I use a sage on my teams is due to the way units are trained. My only RNG abused team lacks a sage, I'll admit that team is easy to counterpick, but in a random battle it'll win more often than a team with a sage. I'd say almost certainly sages are a great unit to have on any counterpick, and don't fare poorly on random maps, but on average, the win rate is lower than a team without a sage.

Most people think sages are good because they are used to having sages. Also, because they are used to fighting people with sages.

[Soren9934]

these arguements are why i wanted 4 people to discuss this in a chat, stage utility vs overall class utility is an important diffrence we should take into account. as sylvan said its NECCSARY to have a sage on map 6 to exploit it through warplugay or other tactics giving you a a HUMONGO disadvantedge if you DON'T use a sage. Map 5 due to its sheer size may also want a sage.

sylvan does have a point on sages, its completetly possible they are just so used to them we overuse their utility.

gerard and I were talking last night, there are 2 things we MUST difirentiate

average stat units.

clock abuse units.

in clock abuse a team of 5 palidens is a way to go while it'd be uter suicide in average stat. the only unit thats offesivly and possibly defensivly comparable is the sniper due to how many units can fill the str and spd caps.

Edited April 25, 2010 by BlacknightSoren