"Sethskip," warpskip tier list

[Anouleth]

As soon as you provide evidence that there's actually a point in having an 8 move Duessel on maps where I can rush Lyon in two turns, rush Riev, warp Seth to Orson (and have him wipe out as many guys possible on enemy phase along the way), et cetera...

I don't know if you noticed, but he did rush Lyon and Riev in two turns with 8 move Duessel.

And Seth killing Orson doesn't end the chapter. We still need to get Eirika to the throne, and Seth can have good luck trying to do that on his own when he's left every other unit in the chapter behind him due to having better move.

[dondon151]

Actually, I used Seth to rush Lyon, but it wouldn't have mattered if he had 10 move or 8 move. 8 move Duessel was, as you said, most useful against Riev, but also in chapter 18 and against Orson in chapter 16.

[Life]

Seth officially breaks this game. In any case, I'm trying to do an efficiency run right now which goes against everything that I hold dear in FE (training noobs).

Should I be 4 turning or 3 turning Chapter 1? Oh and why is Lute in the Don't Use tier instead of D?

[Dat Nick]

and Seth can have good luck trying to do that on his own when he's left every other unit in the chapter behind him due to having better move.

Yes, why do you think he's wiping out enemies on the enemy phase? To make room for Eirika.

And:

Actually... Duessel doubles all of the cavs because they're weighed down 2 AS minimum by Javelin and have 10 spd maximum. Duessel only really needs a Hand Axe. Ephraim kind of gets in the way if he doesn't counter a Javelin cav or if he ends up getting ganged up on because his durability is far worse than Duessel's.

Are any of them matching Duessel's HP/str/def? I highly doubt it. Are they matching his weapon ranks? I don't think so either.

Duessel has dibs on the Boots. If you get him to S axes, he is hands down your best boss killer. No one else even comes close. (I already disproved this, btw)

None of this constitutes as "damning evidence", and that's everything you've said about Duessel this page. You haven't even GIVEN any magical strategies as to how 8 mov Duessel is useful at all. Maybe on rout chapters (And C18's the only one of those), it is a productive investment, I am failing to see how it is on the rest. By the by, that bit about him in C15, however true it is, is cancelled out by the fact he's not going to be able to utilize the boots in that chapter.

8 move Duessel was, as you said, most useful against Riev

And Seth's not? Seth has more than enough speed to double him, has more than enough HP to take a hit from him (even if he had zero res), runs a 0% critical chance, has high hit rates, doesn't need an uber weapon to do it, etc...

[dondon151]

None of this constitutes as "damning evidence", and that's everything you've said about Duessel this page. You haven't even GIVEN any magical strategies as to how 8 mov Duessel is useful at all. Maybe on rout chapters (And C18's the only one of those), it is a productive investment, I am failing to see how it is on the rest. By the by, that bit about him in C15, however true it is, is cancelled out by the fact he's not going to be able to utilize the boots in that chapter.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20054

Use it.

And Seth's not? Seth has more than enough speed to double him, has more than enough HP to take a hit from him (even if he had zero res), runs a 0% critical chance, has high hit rates, doesn't need an uber weapon to do it, etc...

--/15 Seth has 21 str and 36 atk with Vidofnir. Against Riev's 51 HP, 16 def, that's 40 HP damage. --/12 Duessel has 19 str and 39 atk with Garm. 46 HP damage. Duessel getting another point of str and an Energy Ring cleanly ORKOs Riev. Seth has no chance even with another str proc and 2 Energy Rings. You could argue to give him Audhumla, but it's better to S rank lances for him for the +5 hit and +5 crit when using Javelins.

[Anouleth]

None of this constitutes as "damning evidence", and that's everything you've said about Duessel this page. You haven't even GIVEN any magical strategies as to how 8 mov Duessel is useful at all. Maybe on rout chapters (And C18's the only one of those), it is a productive investment, I am failing to see how it is on the rest. By the by, that bit about him in C15, however true it is, is cancelled out by the fact he's not going to be able to utilize the boots in that chapter.

By the by, that bit about him in C15 was addressing my point about him not being good in C15 due to not doubling Cavs (which I realise was incorrect, I overestimated the enemies, who weighed themselves down). It had nothing to do with the Boots. Duessel doesn't even need the Boots in C15, he can steamroll east perfectly fine with 6 move.

[dondon151]

Should I be 4 turning or 3 turning Chapter 1? Oh and why is Lute in the Don't Use tier instead of D?

You should be 3 turning chapter 1. Feel free to take more turns if you'd like, but make sure that you can justify saving turns later on as a consequence.

Lute is in "Don't Use!" tier because she is never forced. In the short term, she doesn't contribute anything that other people don't contribute (Artur is almost as good for magic chip). That doesn't say much in itself, but consider that Artur also has more long term potential than Lute and thus should be favored early on. Lute's long term potential is basically an underleveled MK, but... considering that her only advantage on Saleh is +1 move with significantly worse parameters all around, and considering that the other viable growth units are competing for a much sparser EXP pool, training her costs more than you reap.

If someone can show that Lute can be used while improving turncount, I'll gladly move her out into D tier.

[Dat Nick]

Use it.

Then tell me THAT topic instead of "it's all on this page" when you don't say anything on this page.

--/12 Duessel has 19 str and 39 atk with Garm. 46 HP damage. Duessel getting another point of str and an Energy Ring cleanly ORKOs Riev.

Okay, you still haven't explained how Duessel gaining 50 WEXP in three and a half chapters, one of which is two turned, is even close to realistic.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Cody Travers

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Jesus christ, do you ever read?

Chapter 19: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=E_zvqNtKfxA

Duessel got an Energy Ring prior to the beginning of the chapter.

There were a couple of tasks that I had to accomplish. I had to kill Riev to end the chapter as quickly as possible while obtaining the Bolting and Speedwings. The Bolting is necessary for Final, and the Speedwings is necessary for chapter 20. (Well, they're not really necessary, but both will make my time a lot easier.)

Duessel got S axes just on time as he proceeds to obliterate Riev. The Energy Ring that he got prior to the beginning of chapter yielded +4 damage, which allowed Saleh to, once again, score the Purge KO. Moulder also reached 10/0 for promotion, while I bought another Guiding Ring for Natasha as she is getting close and I suspect that +2 move on promotion just might come in useful. If she promotes in the first place. She's only 1 Warp use away.

"ta da"

Bold for emphasis.

Yeah, I'm seeing Boots Duessel being the best decision.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[dondon151]

Then tell me THAT topic instead of "it's all on this page" when you don't say anything on this page.

I'm going to play the bblade card and insist that it's your fault for misinterpretation rather than mine for not typing clearly enough.

Okay, you still haven't explained how Duessel gaining 50 WEXP in three and a half chapters, one of which is two turned, is even close to realistic.

Well, I got him to S axes just fine. A Devil Axe kill on a gorgon egg gives Duessel almost 1/4 of the WEXP needed to reach S axes.

Possible changes (and non-changes):

Ephraim into C tier above one of Colm, Syrene, or Eirika.

Artur, according to IOS, has no trouble getting to 10/1 by chapter 11 Eir, which seals his current position.

Franz down to below Forde and Kyle, and maybe even lower.

Garcia above Joshua.

Edited May 10, 2010 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

"ta da"

Bold for emphasis.

This is proving the direct OPPOSITE if anything. Since growths currently exist, if they shave off even one turn on lategame chapters (where they have the most impact), Dussel goes from borderline on S axes to no S Axes. And that's a huge difference, obviously.

I'm going to play the bblade card and insist that it's your fault for misinterpretation rather than mine for not typing clearly enough.

Actually, that's the dondon card. And no, if you say "look on this page" on this topic, then obviously I'm going to think IN this topic. Since you are the speaker, you are at fault for being misunderstood.

Well, I got him to S axes just fine. A Devil Axe kill on a gorgon egg gives Duessel almost 1/4 of the WEXP needed to reach S axes.

Devil Axe? We're going to give Duessel a 23% chance of killing himself just so he can get to S Axes? Get real.

Also, learn to math. 8 WEXP is less than 10, which is less than a fifth of the WEXP he needs.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Cody Travers

[dondon151]

This is proving the direct OPPOSITE if anything. Since growths currently exist, if they shave off even one turn on lategame chapters (where they have the most impact), Dussel goes from borderline on S axes to no S Axes. And that's a huge difference, obviously.

Chapter 16: impossible to do better than 5 turns unless you use a lot of Warp, and you will likely only have 1 Warp user.

Chapter 17: impossible to do better than 2 turns unless you have a unit that can both ORKO Lyon and a Warp user with a large staff range.

Chapter 18: probably impossible to do better than 6 turns because your units need to kill those gorgon eggs on the other corner of the map.

Actually, that's the dondon card. And no, if you say "look on this page" on this topic, then obviously I'm going to think IN this topic. Since you are the speaker, you are at fault for being misunderstood.

Oh, look, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Devil Axe? We're going to give Duessel a 23% chance of killing himself just so he can get to S Axes? Get real.

Duessel does about 18 HP damage to himself on Devil Axe backfire and has about 44 HP total. Even if he doubled himself with the Devil Axe, he won't kill himself. In fact, he'll still get that chunky 16 WEXP.

Edited May 10, 2010 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Oh, look, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Actually, the pot has a little fucking humility. If I made the same fuck up you did, I wouldn't have tried to in it on you screwing up. I know I'm supposed to be the douchebag who doesn't buy into dondon's ideals even when they're fucking stupid/incorrect, but come on, keep the bias at a REALISTIC level.

Thanks for finally answering, anyway.

[-Cynthia-]

Couldn't Cormag be thrown into Never Used on the basis that he costs us 4 turns in 13A? (I assume we can kill Aias in 2 turns, he might lose us 5 turns if we could normally one turn it). I'm not sure he makes up this deficit over the remaining chapters.

[dondon151]

I think that Cormag is essential for a low turn playthrough. If I were to lower his position based on his recruitment cost, it would not accurately convey the fact that he should be used on 100% of all playthroughs from the time of his recruitment to the final chapter.

If you can show that the game is able to be completed in fewer turns without Cormag than with, I will drop him to "Don't use!" tier.

[-Cynthia-]

I think that Cormag is essential for a low turn playthrough. If I were to lower his position based on his recruitment cost, it would not accurately convey the fact that he should be used on 100% of all playthroughs from the time of his recruitment to the final chapter.

If you can show that the game is able to be completed in fewer turns without Cormag than with, I will drop him to "Don't use!" tier.

You know, you requesting me to "show" things is essentially requiring me to do a speedrun just to make any changes to the list which is pretty silly, especially considering that I will probably end up with a higher turncount than you regardless because I don't have much practice doing this.

Nevertheless, I have started my own attempt at a low turn playthrough. So far everything seems about the same, except Gilliam has been absoutely useless, can't really say he even contributes more than crap like Ross.

[Anouleth]

You know, you requesting me to "show" things is essentially requiring me to do a speedrun just to make any changes to the list which is pretty silly, especially considering that I will probably end up with a higher turncount than you regardless because I don't have much practice doing this.

Nevertheless, I have started my own attempt at a low turn playthrough. So far everything seems about the same, except Gilliam has been absoutely useless, can't really say he even contributes more than crap like Ross.

Wall-thwacking in Chapter 3, and is more likely to be deployed in Chapter 4 if Ross fails to proc speed.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You know, you requesting me to "show" things is essentially requiring me to do a speedrun just to make any changes to the list which is pretty silly, especially considering that I will probably end up with a higher turncount than you regardless because I don't have much practice doing this.

This isn't necessarily true. There's a very well-defined list of "things Cormag does for the team" that you can refute if you so choose. "showing" that you can replicate Cormag's skills with another character available in the same time frame just means illustrating ways in which Cormag's skills are not unique and can be done by characters that don't take 4 turns to recruit.

That said, Cormag comes with solid base stats and his own whip, as well as flight utility. Why wouldn't you use him?

Edited May 10, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[-Cynthia-]

This isn't necessarily true. There's a very well-defined list of "things Cormag does for the team" that you can refute if you so choose. "showing" that you can replicate Cormag's skills with another character available in the same time frame just means illustrating ways in which Cormag's skills are not unique and can be done by characters that don't take 4 turns to recruit.

That said, Cormag comes with solid base stats and his own whip, as well as flight utility. Why wouldn't you use him?

Obviously if you're waiting around to recruit Cormag you might as well use him. The issue is whether he saves us 4-5 turns over the course of C14-E to make up for having us take longer on C13. We do have 2 other fliers by this point and get a third one fairly soon. Cormag will be better combat wise than an untrained Vanessa or Tana, but is he being used for combat? Or is the third flier eally so necessary?

@Anouleth Anyone can hit walls, and we don't need every character to hit walls anyway. I guess we can field him in C4 and he can hit something, although Ross chips for as much damage and Neimi does a similar amount (less Str but she doubles), so I'm still unsure about him outperforming the "Never Used".

[Mekkah]

I think it's safe to say Cormag can shave those 4 it takes to recruit him by himself. If he only shaves off 4 turns, however, then his net profit would be zero, which should probably put him below Duessel at least. But if he shaves off more...

[-Cynthia-]

I guess the question is whether this list is measuring the unit's effect on turncount once recruited, or the unit's overall effect on turncount. If it's the first one, Cormag's recruitment problem is irrelevant, if not then Cormag has to take -4 turns, which even if not putting him in "Do Not Use" would probably knock him out of A tier.

Edited May 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

The tiers are primarily supposed to give the player a sense of who to use rather than directly ranking characters based on turncount. If I put Cormag in C tier due to a 4 turn recruitment cost, that doesn't give the impression that he should always be used; that gives the impression that Cormag is bad. I don't care if you (or others) think that a tier list is not supposed to serve the same purpose as a character guide; I think that a tier list should convey relevant info to the player viewing the tier list.

You know, you requesting me to "show" things is essentially requiring me to do a speedrun just to make any changes to the list which is pretty silly, especially considering that I will probably end up with a higher turncount than you regardless because I don't have much practice doing this.

I'm not asking you to directly show anything, although that is the best way. If you can reason, with rhetoric, that you only need 2 fliers instead of 3, 1 less promoted 8 move unit, and 1 less flexible combat unit from chapters 14 to 17, and that Vanessa and/or Tana, by some feat of EXP allocation, can do all that they + Cormag can do, then that will be perfectly fine. It's just hard to directly quantify how many turns a unit will save when you have so many other units that are also necessary to shave turncounts.

I don't like theoryFE very much because you can get away with asserting facts that don't work as well as they do in practice (like Vanessa supports).

[Mekkah]

Okay, if this is supposed to be for character recommendation, then yeah, Cormag should be around there. Though then again, if Cormag technically saved you no turns, and the goal of the playthrough that this list is recommending things for is saving turns, then maybe he would still be a "bleh" character.

[Interceptor]

I don't care if you (or others) think that a tier list is not supposed to serve the same purpose as a character guide; I think that a tier list should convey relevant info to the player viewing the tier list.

Let's not straw-man, here. The issue isn't that tier lists are not "supposed" to serve the same purpose as a character guide; the issue is that tier lists are terrible at the job. See: butterknife-used-as-flathead-screwdriver analogy. Useful in a pinch, but not the best tool for the job.

[dondon151]

Sorry, Int, that wasn't meant to be a jab at you. Even if they're terrible at the job, I think they can be made to be more suitable than the sort of tier lists that we have now which rank characters based on ambiguous and sometimes inconsistent criteria. Those provide a basis for some sort of discussion, but aren't always the most intuitive.

Okay, if this is supposed to be for character recommendation, then yeah, Cormag should be around there. Though then again, if Cormag technically saved you no turns, and the goal of the playthrough that this list is recommending things for is saving turns, then maybe he would still be a "bleh" character.

If Cormag technically saves exactly 0 turns or less, then he would be in "Don't use!" tier. But since he saves turns (until proven otherwise; I'm not claiming that I'm infallible), he's not. Additionally, he needs to be used extensively to make up for the turn "deposit" that the player makes to recruit him.

Edited May 10, 2010 by dondon151