FR/LG ingame tier list, v 1.5

[riariadne]

Because Bblader seems to have totally forgotten about this thing's existence.

-Trade evos aren't considered. Because FRLG isn't a wifi game.

-Sevii Islands are assumed

-Stones can be bought and you have plenty of money to do so, so the opportunity cost for stone evo does not exist (just a refresher course since people may be used to pokethaloning for stones)

-No glitches. I'm actually not sure if FRLG has any silly ones like the infa-rare candy trick, but just in case it does the answer is still no.

-Performance against Gyms, E4, and Blue are the important battles because you can avoid almost everything else easily.

Top:

Bulbasaur

Squirtle

Charmander

NidoranM

NidoranF

High:

Mankey

Geodude

Abra

Staryu

Snorlax

Rattata

Spearow

Pidgey

Mid High:

Doduo

Gastly

Drowzee

Machop

Vaporeon

Magnemite

Diglett

Zubat

Mid:

Zapdos

Articuno

Moltres

Poliwag

Horsea

Pikachu

Caterpie

Electabuzz

Magmar

Vulpix

Seel

Oddish

Bellsprout

Ponyta

Meowth

Mid Low:

Clefairy

Hitmonlee

Hitmonchan

Goldeen

Tauros

Growlithe

Kangaskahn

Pinsir

Scyther

Eggxecute

Tangela

Krabby

Magikarp

Cubone

Sandshrew

Low:

Psyduck

Lapras

Tentacool

Jolteon

Flareon

Weedle

Chansey

Voltorb

Shelder

Slowpoke

Jigglypuff

Bottom:

Mewtwo

Ekans

Koffing

Venonat

Paras

Rhyhorn

Grimer

Onix

Farfetch'd

Aerodactyl

Kabuto

Omanyte

Ditto

Porygon

Missingno:

Mew

Edited June 20, 2010 by Lightning

[_____]

Magnemite in borderline high is... interesting, to say the least.

You can only get it after defeating Koga, and when you catch it, it's only going to be around Level 22-25, when, at least in my case, most of my Pokemon were at Level 35~ after clearing Koga's Gym, and even then, I dropped 2 Party members half way to Fuschia City from Lavender Town in exchange for two more, so, in all likeliness, my party was underleveled. Getting a Level 25 Pokemon at this point requires a lot of babying.

Now, it's possible for one to fight Koga before Sabrina, which would probably help Magnemite's case, so let's go that route. Magnemite resists Psychic type attacks, true, but it only has a 25 HP base and 55 Special Defense, and a 45 Speed base ensures it's going to be moving last for the entire gym. Not only that, but all of the Pokemon Sabrina owns have pretty ridiculously high Special Defenses, Mr. Mime in particular, which means Magnemite really is doing absolutely nothing here.

So, you take a quick swim over to Cinnabar. Admittedly, Magnemite is doing decently offensively here, since it does have a STAB Spark by this point, probably. Remember those Psychic type attacks that Sabrina had, though? Imagine those, but unresisted, and you have the Water type attacks Magnemite is facing here. He's going to have to heal a lot. But hey, let's say he's a Magneton by Blaine. There are a lot of trainers to fight on the way there, so let's be really generous and say he's around Level 35. That's still 5 levels lower than Blaine's weakest Pokemon, though, and a whopping 12 Levels lower than his strongest. All 4 of his Pokemon are packing Fire Blast. Remember how Water really fucked up Magnemton before? Now imagine Water x2 with really strong Pokemon. Magneton is doing absolutely nothing at Blaine's Gym.

Don't worry, Magneton! All hope is not lost! There's still Giova-

...

What's that?

Giovanni's Pokemon all have STAB Earthquake that does 4x Damage on you? Have fun sitting on the bench.

Now, let's try to make Magneton helpful. Let's say we finally raised him to Level 50. He's actually going to be doing pretty well on Lorelei. Every one of her Pokemon outside of Jynx is part Water, which makes him able to take out a good chunk of their health with STAB Spark (or, if you're really determined to make this Magneton actually work, Thunderbolt, but have fun saving your money). It's true that he's probably taking a decent amount of damage from the Water type moves they're packing, but he's probably will only need to heal once or twice, and it's probably not enough to seriously consider him being KO'd without criticals.

Bruno has two Onix, so Magneton is doing nothing against those, and he takes 2x Damage from Fighting moves, which the other 3 members of Bruno's team love to spam at you. He's pretty useless.

He's pretty good against Agatha, since he can resist her Ghost attacks and completely shuts down stuff like Toxic, Sludge Bomb, and Poison Fang.

He's great against Lance's Gyarados, his attacks are resisted by the Dragonairs, though he resists their attacks as well, he's good against Aerodactyl, and he's pretty good against Dragonite, since he can now hit for 1x Damage and resists its attacks.

Assuming the player chose Bulbasaur, since he's considered the best by this list, Magneton does great against Blue's Pidgeot, pretty good against Alakazam (being a Magneton gives him respectable Special Defense), should switch out for Rhydon ASAP, does great again on Gyarados (though he does have to watch out for an STAB Hydro Pump, if it hits), does decently against Exeggutor (think Alakazam if Alakazam resisted Spark), and can take out a decent chunk of Charizard's health if it misses with Fire Blast.

So, Magneton joins us late and underleveled, is completely useless for 3 Gyms and an Elite Four member, and then decent against 2 Elite Four members, and pretty damn good against 2 others. Remind me how this is any better than Machop? Seel? Hell, even Pinsir, if you can catch it, is better than Magnemite/ton!

[Colonel M]

Caterpie and Weedle should be above the fossils. I can provide the reasoning, but to be honest it seems rather obvious. Quick stage 3, availability, decent for their time frame. They don't scream "awesome" but they do give Charmander players an edge (well Butterfree anyway, Beedrill does have Gym 2 possibly if you hold out on the Gym and go for TwinNeedle).

I also place high doubt that Magneton is getting "thrashed" by Water-type Pokemon assuming it goes first. If anything, it's the complete opposite: it's Magneton thrashing them.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

Mewtwo's still way too high. He has the sevii islands and that's it. The people in bottom have at the least the opportunity to DO something for the majority of the game.

[_____]

I also place high doubt that Magneton is getting "thrashed" by Water-type Pokemon assuming it goes first. If anything, it's the complete opposite: it's Magneton thrashing them.

But it doesn't go first. Magneton has a 70 Speed Base.

Pokemon on Route 19 with that Speed Base - Tentacool

Pokemon on Route 19 with a Speed Base lower than that - Goldeen, Shellder, Horsea, Seaking,

Pokemon on Route 19 with a Speed Base higher than that - Tentacruel, Poliwag, Poliwhirl

Now, when you look at this, you may think that means that Magneton is outspeeding the majority of the Pokemon here. However, Tentacruel and Tentacool, when you take wild Pokemon into account, are easily the most common of all of these Pokemon, and both have access to Bubblebeam, which has a chance to lower its speed even more.

Furthurmore, this barely has any bearing on Magnemite's position. You aren't considering how great Charmander is in all of the grassy areas around the world that contain bugs and the like. No, from what I've seen, people have only really cared about Gym Leaders, the Elite Four, and Team Rocket on this list. Magnemite should not be held on a different standard, and really, it sucks in this game.

[riariadne]

Mewtwo's still way too high. He has the sevii islands and that's it. The people in bottom have at the least the opportunity to DO something for the majority of the game.

It doesn't even have the Sevii Islands. It has... the second version of the Elite Four. That's it. Yet BBlader had it in Mid. I find that stupid so I lowered it. Honestly, I should just lower it even more.

Magneton going down because you have a good point, though not too far down. And I dunno about everyone else but isn't Koga usually faced before Sabrina anyways? Meh.

The fossils I agree, way too late to be useful whereas Caterpie/Weedle have a bit of time where they are pretty kickass.

[_____]

And I dunno about everyone else but isn't Koga usually faced before Sabrina anyways? Meh.

That's how things are supposed to go, but I've always found it more convenient to fight Sabrina, then go down to Koga so you don't have to fly back and forth twice.

[General Spoon]

That's how things are supposed to go, but I've always found it more convenient to fight Sabrina, then go down to Koga so you don't have to fly back and forth twice.

Wait, I thought that it was standard to fight Sabrina first. I'm going to continue to do it wrong though.

[_____]

Wait, I thought that it was standard to fight Sabrina first. I'm going to continue to do it wrong though.

Nope. You're actually supposed to get the Soul Badge first, which makes you think why they didn't just make it so you get the Tea in Fuschia instead of Celadon.

[_____]

Alright, a blanket list of my current concerns.

Kabuto, Omanyte, and Aerodactyl should all drop to below Farfetch'd. Getting a Level 5 Pokemon at Cinnabar is completely absurd. You can catch Pokemon in Viridian Forest at better levels than that.

Clefairy should definitely rise. Catchable at Mt. Moon, where it can come with its own evolution item (which it did for me in my recent playthrough, which I am basing most of this off of). It can be evolved as soon as it gets Doubleslap with little to no repercussions and live off of TMs/HMs for the rest of its life. Some TMs worth mentioning are Water Pulse, Ice Beam/Thunderbolt if you can afford them, Shock Wave, Psychic, Solar Beam, and, of course, Strength.

I feel as though all of the Legendary Birds are far too high.

Growlithe is 3 entire tiers above Koffing. I'd go so far as to say that Koffing is better than Growlithe. I have no idea how it is that high.

Zubat could probably stand to rise. Its moveset is pretty terrible until it gets Wing Attack, yeah, but as soon as it evolves, it becomes a lot better. Diglett, while admittedly better than Zubat when caught, is 2HKO'd by pretty much everything in the game, even when it evolves. Golbat isn't. Golbat also gets the ever useful Confuse Ray. When dealing with Gyms and the Elite Four...

Zubat wins:

Misty (it exists), Erika, Giovanni, Bruno, Agatha, Lance, Blue (assuming we chose Bulbasaur)

Diglett wins:

Koga, Sabrina, Blaine

Tie:

Surge (Zubat sucks, but Diglett doesn't exist.)

It seems like an obvious win to me.

That's it for now. By the way, I die a little inside every time I debate Pokemon. It's like my childhood is dying.

[dondon151]

But it doesn't go first. Magneton has a 70 Speed Base.

Pokemon on Route 19 with that Speed Base - Tentacool

Pokemon on Route 19 with a Speed Base lower than that - Goldeen, Shellder, Horsea, Seaking,

Pokemon on Route 19 with a Speed Base higher than that - Tentacruel, Poliwag, Poliwhirl

Now, when you look at this, you may think that means that Magneton is outspeeding the majority of the Pokemon here. However, Tentacruel and Tentacool, when you take wild Pokemon into account, are easily the most common of all of these Pokemon, and both have access to Bubblebeam, which has a chance to lower its speed even more.

Furthurmore, this barely has any bearing on Magnemite's position. You aren't considering how great Charmander is in all of the grassy areas around the world that contain bugs and the like. No, from what I've seen, people have only really cared about Gym Leaders, the Elite Four, and Team Rocket on this list. Magnemite should not be held on a different standard, and really, it sucks in this game.

Your Pokemon generally have a level advantage over other Pokemon, in addition to a smattering of speed EVs, so Magneton will outspeed Pokemon with higher than base 70 speed; probably up to base 85, or even higher depending on the level advantage.

Golbat sucks on offense. A 60 BP STAB off base 80 attack is terrible.

Edited May 20, 2010 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

I believe you can catch Diglett in Diglett's cave before Surge, which would give Diglett a pretty large advantage there.

Poison types tend to be low because Poison type attacks really have no type coverage (woo they can hit Grass super effective, and most grassers are part poison anyway). Zubat's other STAB isn't very good and Weezing doesn't have one.

Edited May 20, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[_____]

Your Pokemon generally have a level advantage over other Pokemon, in addition to a smattering of speed EVs, so Magneton will outspeed Pokemon with higher than base 70 speed; probably up to base 85, or even higher depending on the level advantage.

Fair enough, however, it should be mentioned that the level deficit that Magnemite started with has more than likely not been fully made-up for at this point unless you grind with it a lot or have it solo Silph Co.

Golbat sucks on offense. A 60 BP STAB off base 80 attack is terrible.

I don't see how that's anywhere near terrible. Machoke, for example, has 100 attack, but doesnt' get a move with higher BP than 60 with STAB until Level 25, and doesn't get a move with higher BP than 60 with STAB without any drawbacks that cripple the move until Level 40.

Zubat's offense sucks, I'll give you that, but Golbat is not bad at all.

I believe you can catch Diglett in Diglett's cave before Surge, which would give Diglett a pretty large advantage there.

Right, I forgot that the Snorlax position in HGSS is different from that of FRLG, but that's still 7 to 4.

Poison types tend to be low because Poison type attacks really have no type coverage (woo they can hit Grass super effective, and most grassers are part poison anyway). Zubat's other STAB isn't very good and Weezing doesn't have one.

Golbat doesn't even learn any Poison moves until it gets Poison Fang at, like, Level 50. I don't see why Poison being a bad offensive type is the end of the world. At least Golbat can take a hit from something without forcing us to waste a Potion and actually hit the ever common flying types.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Ninji

[riariadne]

I made a lot of edits there. Top tier is also bigger because I find tiers that are stupidly small useless to have unless it's a joke tier (Missingno)

[-Cynthia-]

Oddish/Bellsprout up, at least above Goldeen. They help kill Misty if we didn't choose Bulbasaur and can act as Cut slaves the rest of the game. Goldeen can act as a Surf slave, which is a lot less useful since there are tons of Water Pokemon. And if we we ould bpther to train them up, Vileplume and Victreebel are better than Seaking (Seaking blows).

[_____]

Still not seeing Diglett > Zubat.

Mewtwo really should drop to at least below Ekans. Yes, Ekans sucks and doesn't get a "good" move until Level 32/38 (at least until you get Strength), but at least it exists.

Clefairy under the Hitmons? Not buying it.

I kind of meant Growlithe should drop when I mentioned Koffing being 3 tiers under it. Both are terrible.

[riariadne]

Diglett's staying where it is for now due to Zubat sucking massively for a while and not picking up until a lot later. Moved ubat just under it though.

Mewtwo will be just above Ekans for now.

Done.

... Oh. Though Growlithe does get a few kickass moves later on... I suppose I'll put it in low tier and move Koffing back.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Lightning

[_____]

Diglett's staying where it is for now due to Zubat sucking massively for a while and not picking up until a lot later. Moved ubat just under it though.

Level 22 is a "lot later"?

... Oh. Though Growlithe does get a few kickass moves later on... I suppose I'll put it in low tier and move Koffing back.

I have seen Growlithes with 23 Defense in the Pokemon Mansion. You can blame it on bad IVs or whatever you would like, but even Pokemon with trashy defenses like Spearow can have that at Level 15~. It doesn't help that, once it's caught, it goes up against a Fire Gym, a Ground Gym, a Water/Ice Elite Four memeber, a Rock/Fighting Elite Four member, and a Dragon Elite Four member.

[-Cynthia-]

Can't you get Growlithes right outside Celadon? Or was that only Red/Blue?

Zubbat and Golbat both have relatively bad offense. No STAB+ mediocre attack is pretty bad. It's not like either of them are that wonderful defensively either.

[_____]

Can't you get Growlithes right outside Celadon? Or was that only Red/Blue?

Apparently so.

[riariadne]

Level 22 isn't easy for Zubat, since it's kinda useless in Misty's gym, isn't worth bringign to Lt. Surges gym at all, and suffers against a lot of Gary's team as well. Diglett is one of the best options for Lt. Surge's gym because it's immune to most attacks there and is pretty quick.

[Zkirsche]

Zubat at least has supersonic, and we can always switch him out and just share the exp with someone that probably doesn't care like Bulbasaur or Nidoran M.

Golbat with Aerial Ace/Confuse Ray/Toxic/Air Cutter seems pretty decent for the endgame. He's pretty fast and can help tank any Sp'A moves whilst leaving a lasting impression from status effects alone.

[dondon151]

Supersonic's 55 acc will, almost half of the time, do nothing to the opponent and get damaged in return. Furthermore, unlike another similar shaky acc move like Sing or Hypnosis, the opponent, after being confused, will still attack Zubat half of the time.

That Golbat set, compared to sets of other competent Pokemon, is terrible. It doubles up on STAB, yet the strongest option is still 60 BP. It relies on Confuse Ray to not get owned, but confusion will only be reliable 50% of the time - not a safe option. And because Confuse Ray is not a safe option, Toxic is not reliable either, because to do any sort of non-token damage requires stalling, and with Golbat's average defenses and lack of stalling ability, he's not even good at that.

[Colonel M]

I'm not understanding the premise of Zubat > Diglett in the first place. Digletts are easy to catch and it isn't difficult to find one at a good level for certain attacks. Zubat relying on Leech Life and 55% chance to confuse with a 50% chance to walk out of an attack... Is rather unreliable. Durability isn't even much of an issue for Diglett so long as something gets smashed first. Diglett also does exceptional with Lt Surge and some of the Team Rocket Pokemon. There's also Koga and Blaine. What exactly does Zubat win? Minor availability? Erika? Shittiest offense award?

[Zkirsche]

It doubles up on STAB, yet the strongest option is still 60 BP. It relies on Confuse Ray to not get owned, but confusion will only be reliable 50% of the time - not a safe option. And because Confuse Ray is not a safe option, Toxic is not reliable either, because to do any sort of non-token damage requires stalling, and with Golbat's average defenses and lack of stalling ability, he's not even good at that.

Yeah, but golbat's move pool is terrible. Having anything greater than STAB 60 bp is pushing it.