Opposing Views: Sick of Hearing Christians Claim "Religious Discrimination"

[Defeatist Elitist]

@ Revan

What did the holocaust have to do with- riiiiight. That's just your way of broadening my viewpoint until it fits into one of your lame jokes. Got it.

I... You... But... I mean... That...

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Okay, let me break this down.

You: It was justified because it was all part of the plan, and good things will happen because of that.

Me: *applies that logic to something else*

You: HOW IS THAT RELEVANT?

[Phoenix]

I... You... But... I mean... That...

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Okay, let me break this down.

You: It was justified because it was all part of the plan, and good things will happen because of that.

Me: *applies that logic to something else*

You: HOW IS THAT RELEVANT?

No. I justify it through all of the following reasons:

"The Lawmaker is not subject to the law."(this is a ten commandments reference, not a human laws reference)

"Humans are creations, with no rights."(this belief is pretty important for application)

"The whole plan is to turn humans into something else entirely."(this one's the MOST important for application)

"Death means little to God. With the snap of the fingers you could live again."(think about that)

"That^ WILL happen. You can take that to the bank."(you can)

Those are religious beliefs and so you can't really apply them to the Nazis without assuming God told them to do it. I thought Hitler told them to do it. Well if God did tell them to do it, then we're probably missing some books.

[Defeatist Elitist]

No. I justify it through all of the following reasons:

"The Lawmaker is not subject to the law."(this is a ten commandments reference, not a human laws reference)

"Humans are creations, with no rights."(this belief is pretty important for application)

"The whole plan is to turn humans into something else entirely."(this one's the MOST important for application)

"Death means little to God. With the snap of the fingers you could live again."(think about that)

"That^ WILL happen. You can take that to the bank."(you can)

Those are religious beliefs and so you can't really apply them to the Nazis without assuming God told them to do it. I thought Hitler told them to do it. Well if God did tell them to do it, then we're probably missing some books.

Well then, okay, we can just treat Hitler like God. I mean, a lot of people probably did. Seriously, I can pretty much apply any of this to Nazi Germany, easily.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Dark Elves Suck

[Phoenix]

I had no idea Hitler could resurrect the dead and prefabricate a 7,000+ year plan. You'd think they'd have won if he could do that. Well, apply it like that if you want, my point is, God isn't evil just because his actions don't fall in line with morals that humans crafted out of a faulty belief system.

EDIT:

Justified Nazis ... where have I heard this before?

Edited July 3, 2010 by Phoenix

[Defeatist Elitist]

I had no idea Hitler could resurrect the dead and prefabricate a 7,000+ year plan. You'd think they'd have won if he could do that. Well, apply it like that if you want, my point is, God isn't evil just because his actions don't fall in line with morals that humans crafted out of a faulty belief system.

IT WAS ALL PART OF HITLER'S PLAN.

Where have I read something like THAT before?

I don't think me or Esau craft our morals out of any belief system at all. My morals are based on pretty basic and simple shit like, "Gee, dying sucks, I sure wish people didn't have to die all the time, maybe I should try not to kill people."

[Phoenix]

IT WAS ALL PART OF HITLER'S PLAN.

Where have I read something like THAT before?

I don't think me or Esau craft our morals out of any belief system at all. My morals are based on pretty basic and simple shit like, "Gee, dying sucks, I sure wish people didn't have to die all the time, maybe I should try not to kill people."

I can understand where you guys are coming from, and I'm sorry for not really caring, but at the same time, I'm not keen on having my human nature decide what's right and what's wrong when that's what people have been doing since the beginning, and lo and behold it doesn't work.

I don't really want to get off topic, isn't this about discrimination? Can we argue about that instead? I'm sure I posted something you can try to quote smash.

EDIT:

No seriously, I've heard that Nazi justification thing somewhere before, and I'm not sure where. It was probably on this site though.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Phoenix

[Defeatist Elitist]

I can understand where you guys are coming from, and I'm sorry for not really caring, but at the same time, I'm not keen on having my human nature decide what's right and what's wrong when that's what people have been doing since the beginning, and lo and behold it doesn't work.

I don't really want to get off topic, isn't this about discrimination? Can we argue about that instead? I'm sure I posted something you can try to quote smash.

EDIT:

No seriously, I've heard that Nazi justification thing somewhere before, and I'm not sure where. It was probably on this site though.

So what you're saying is instead of human nature deciding what's right and wrong (which, btw, it isn't), you're going to decide what's right and wrong based on what you think God thinks is right or wrong?

I mean, there is no objectively correct morality. Morality is a very subjective thing, but there are some things most people will accept under their moral code, and not accepting them often leads to bizarre hypocrisies.

EDIT: Quanta used it on Life, when he was arguing that the Jews were totally justified in slaughtering the Canaanites and taking their land. He just replaced every mention of God with Hitler, Canaanites with Jews, and Jews with Nazis/neo Nazis, and a few other things.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Dark Elves Suck

[Phoenix]

So what you're saying is instead of human nature deciding what's right and wrong (which, btw, it isn't), you're going to decide what's right and wrong based on what you think God thinks is right or wrong?

I mean, there is no objectively correct morality. Morality is a very subjective thing, but there are some things most people will accept under their moral code, and not accepting them often leads to bizarre hypocrisies.

EDIT: Quanta used it on Life, when he was arguing that the Jews were totally justified in slaughtering the Canaanites and taking their land. He just replaced every mention of God with Hitler, Canaanites with Jews, and Jews with Nazis/neo Nazis, and a few other things.

No, I just use the ten commandments. That's simple enough for me. If anything I do conflicts with those, then I try to stop doing it. The difference between God and the Nazis in my opinion is that the law was made for humans, not spirits. On that note, law doesn't apply to Satan either(which it couldn't because then he'd have to be able to die for the law to even take effect in the end).

(And yes my beliefs on Satan's morality are different as well ... go figure)

*would seriously like to return to on-topic* <.<

Umm ... <.< >.> ... as an atheist, do you feel like you're ever being discriminated against?

[Esau of Isaac]

I want a motorcycle. Do I feel like I deserve it? No. I just want one. I know I haven't done anything to earn one. It's the same with human lives, you just don't want to see it.

Very well. I can accept that.

First of all, slow down. Salvation is a very long war, and one goal for the moment doesn't constitute all the reasons for something taking place. Last time I checked, the bible is chalk full of dozens of purposes behind people doing tiny little things or even having visions.

"Again, Judge, I did do that. But you simply can't judge the ramifications of that rape and murder yet. It's way too soon."

One iota? One measly iota? Do you have any idea- never mind. If you don't understand what humans really are( and why we don't have an inherent right to live), then there's no use in trying to explain why the massacres took place to begin with.

That's right. Not. One. Measly. Fucking. Iota. I understand exactly what humans are, and unlike you I'm not going to throw up my hands and decide that humans don't deserve existence because of an individual's opinion. The moment you'll decide to use your own brain to analyze a situation rather than agreeing with everything your higher power does is the moment you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about.

God's plan is one of life's hardships. Deal with it.

An omnibenevolent being can't be a fucking hardship; that's why it's omni-fucking-benevolent.

It's ironic that you cite a deity that you intend for worship as a problem of life. Especially a thinking one, quite unlike growing pains.

What? Like asylum help? Pills? Suicide hotlines? Hookers?

I've got a better idea. How about Great White Throne help? It's free and there's no strange side effects.

I've got an even better idea; how about you don't be such a crazy bastard?

If you say innocent one more time, I'm going to assume from now on that you actually believe that the human race is a fluffy bunny rabbit race with no evil thoughts or deeds whatsoever. There's no such thing as an innocent person.

Children were slaughtered, you fucking maniac.

You can, but you really shouldn't in a religious scuffle. Your seemingly passionate ranting about innocent people dying because God is uberEVIL isn't the best way to get your point across.

Sorry, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it with you to try and actually persuade you.

On the other hand, you saying that the slaughter of women and children is fine gets my point across pretty easy; you're absolutely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Too bad you can't even guess what the grand scheme is ...

It doesn't matter how grand the scheme is. It doesn't matter how great everything turns out. It doesn't matter if the world is happy in the end. It doesn't matter if God achieves his goals because of the slaughter of those people. His entire "grand scheme" was built upon genocide. God could have, in his infinite capabilities, chosen so many other ways to strengthen man; that you would stand by and support it because of the grand scale and the apparent ending point is fucking sickening.

News flash, champ; you should, in all of your view of the evil in peoples' hearts, be able to tell that the great scheme you're speaking of isn't happening. There's no scheme. There's no great ending that genocide brings. There's just a gap where people used to be. As long as people exist that agree on the horrors of genocide, it will never bring about a better world.

*marked for humanitarian content garbage*

You think I don't have a moral outlook on any of this, or that I just ignore it? What I was trying to tell you is that there's a bigger picture in all of this. You're not interested in the bigger picture, you're only interested in whining and griping about slaughters that you wouldn't give a rat's ass about if not for hating God and desperately needing ammunition in the first place.

You've already given your moral outlook. You are fine with it, because it falls within your God's plan. No matter how hard you try this, Phoenix, you're not going to be able to shift this onto me like I'm the crazy one here; you're content with the slaughter of people so long as it fits your belief structure. It doesn't get much more horrible than that.

I came at you for that "It's immoral!" BS because I know for a fact that you don't care about a bunch of people who died in a war that happened ages ago, just like you don't care about any other people that die today unless their deaths serve some purpose in some other worthless complaint you have. WE'RE ALL LIKE THAT. IT'S HUMAN NATURE. We don't care about other human beings until they serve a purpose to us. You're doing the same thing, so don't try to feed me your self-righteous garbage.

"It's disgusting"? I'm an authoritarian and a realist, and your lack of foresight is just disappointing.

No, I'm not. I'm not a heartless bastard like you are. I can't care for everyone as I care for those around me. But I care when defenseless, innocent people are slaughtered. And there are innocent people. All over the world. People who have never harmed another person, who just want to live with the ones they love in peace. Children that are only interested in playing and having fun. Little babes, who can't even speak, who are just learning to walk, and you're trying to paint the picture as though all of humanity is evil, undeserving of life and the pleasures it brings. And all because of some view that involves entitlement of your God as the sole arbiter of all morality, that any view or content that humanity has is pointless and worthless because it its existence.

It's incredibly offensive and disgusting on every level of human compassion that exists. Whether it's the Rwandan genocide or the murder of Kitty Genovese, whether it's the death of my brother or the end of an acquaintance's friend: I. Always. Care. It's one more person that lost their lives in the "grand scheme" of things, never realizing the potential they could have found, the way they could have positively affected others. You might cite those who were amoral, whose existence in places of power brought problems to the world, maybe even ending the lives of many others; I'm even regretful when they die. Because they were just another person. A broken, misshapen shell, sometimes, but people too. They died before ever realizing the mistakes of their actions.

I don't know if the slaughter of the Canaanites ever existed. I can't ever know. But if they did, then I care about men, women, and children of their cultures being systematically purged. No matter how evil I can try and imagine their leaders to be, no matter how sick and twisted I can attempt to paint their armies in battle, I can never, ever excuse for a second murdering an entire people. I refuse to bend over backwards and accommodate the notion that every person just living on a certain soil deserves death. I won't lend credence to the notion that newborn children should be put to the sword because he was born into a world of strife and battle.

You say you are disappointed in me? I am disappointed in you. I am disappointed that you would dismiss the goodness inside of people, of what it means to exist. Maybe it really is because I think this is all there is. I can't say. But that one life a person is given is their one shot to make a difference. That's all there is. It's their only chance to enjoy the joys of human life, to meet others and understand what it's like to understand and see life before their own eventually ends. I don't know if you will ever have children, Phoenix, but I can't imagine how incredibly lonely and helpless it would feel to look at your own newborn child that you created and truly believe in your deepest depths that they don't deserve to exist.

So if this is what you call a lack of foresight, then I am fine with that. I can live without viewing humanity as a blight that doesn't deserve existence in the first place. I will live, I will continue to grow, and I will perhaps die an old man, surrounded by people I know and love. I believe a long, full life of peace and happiness is something every person deserves. And I will always believe that. That is the "great purpose" that humanity should strive for.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Phoenix]

Ummm ... ... that darker red this time.

"Again, Judge, I did do that. But you simply can't judge the ramifications of that rape and murder yet. It's way too soon."

I had no idea that God stands before a judge to defend himself on these matters.

That's right. Not. One. Measly. Fucking. Iota. I understand exactly what humans are, and unlike you I'm not going to throw up my hands and decide that humans don't deserve existence because of an individual's opinion. The moment you'll decide to use your own brain to analyze a situation rather than agreeing with everything your higher power does is the moment you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about.

Sheesh. You make it sound like I wouldn't even help an old lady cross the street. You're just perceiving my viewpoint the wrong way. I leave grand scale issues to God. I take care of worldly matters myself(more on this later).

An omnibenevolent being can't be a fucking hardship; that's why it's omni-fucking-benevolent.

Misconception. Why does God's plan have to involve a lack of trials and hardships? What will we learn from it? Nothing. We'll turn out just like Satan the spirit who was given the best life, and the most power and beauty out of all the others. No angel ever created was more blessed than him, and look what happened. Humanity will do the exact same thing if God just hands us a good life on a golden platter and takes away all of our problems, only difference here is that we can die.

It's ironic that you cite a deity that you intend for worship as a problem of life. Especially a thinking one, quite unlike growing pains.

Trials, problems, things God'll let you go through, they're all hardships, some of them are the very growing pains I was referring to.

I've got an even better idea; how about you don't be such a crazy bastard?

Crazy and agreeing with you are two different things. Just because I'm completely desensitized doesn't mean I'm crazy. You're just taking it personal because you can't comprehend any of this. How could you? You're of the mindset that no matter what else is said, God is evil. Keep in mind, Satan's more interested in this little genocide area than God is.

Children were slaughtered, you fucking maniac.

I need to redefine innocent really quick:

Innocence: Freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil

Well, not to burst your bubble but children don't fit the innocence bill either(at least not this one). You know that the only differences between children and an adults are mileage(so to speak), and childrens' unestablished beliefs as opposed to adults' firmly established beliefs.

Sorry, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it with you to try and actually persuade you.

Fine, but the name calling could definitely use some toning down.

On the other hand, you saying that the slaughter of women and children is fine gets my point across pretty easy; you're absolutely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

I don't like chocolate cereals PERIOD.

It doesn't matter how grand the scheme is. It doesn't matter how great everything turns out. It doesn't matter if the world is happy in the end. It doesn't matter if God achieves his goals because of the slaughter of those people. His entire "grand scheme" was built upon genocide. God could have, in his infinite capabilities, chosen so many other ways to strengthen man; that you would stand by and support it because of the grand scale and the apparent ending point is fucking sickening.

Urgh. How long do I have to read this kind of crap? You and I are on two totally different pages here. You're convinced that anything pain that God ever did isn't worth the payoff. That should be up for debate, but you don't want to hear it, and I don't want to hear anymore of this humanitarian crap. Do you actually think you're the first person to try to twist my words into malicious viewpoints so they can hop up on a soap box and start shouting "Evil Phoenix! Evil Phoenix!"?

The first to go at it this hard maybe.

News flash, champ; you should, in all of your view of the evil in peoples' hearts, be able to tell that the great scheme you're speaking of isn't happening. There's no scheme. There's no great ending that genocide brings. There's just a gap where people used to be. As long as people exist that agree on the horrors of genocide, it will never bring about a better world.

How could I possibly tell huh? I'm crazy remember? Pick your opinion of me and stick with it. I don't like comments like these.

Sorry for calling it a scheme. I meant "Plan that you can do nothing to stop". As for anti-genocide, your goal appears to be a better world. That's nice, and I can respect that, but humanity can't create a better world. You talk about God's plan not coming to pass as if humanity can accomplish better on its own. With humanity governing itself, we're closer to extinction than a better world ... unless that's the better world you meant, in which case, genocide is still in.

You've already given your moral outlook. You are fine with it, because it falls within your God's plan. No matter how hard you try this, Phoenix, you're not going to be able to shift this onto me like I'm the crazy one here; you're content with the slaughter of people so long as it fits your belief structure. It doesn't get much more horrible than that.

I'm not trying to paint you as the "crazy" one. I'm trying to paint you as the "morality obsessed, overly compassionate, self righteous" one. Slight difference.

The real reason that I'm so apathetic towards genocide(all genocide, not just God's commanded genocide), is because unlike you, I don't believe in just one life for mankind. If I did, I would agree with you. But no I'm the crazy evil bastard. Get over yourself.

Verses time! (because no one will believe I took it from the bible unless I do)

Hebrews 9:27

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (speaking of the Great White Throne judgment)

Isaiah 65:20

"No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed." (this is hinting at the length of the Great White Throne judgment)

John 5:24“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29“and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (but no, this is the only life humanity has (insert eye roll here))

You know, we're all going to die ... some sooner than others. If you can't deal with that without blowing your top at the first person who doesn't see it the way you do then you're just an empathetic bully.

No, I'm not. I'm not a heartless bastard like you are. I can't care for everyone as I care for those around me. But I care when defenseless, innocent people are slaughtered. And there are innocent people. All over the world. People who have never harmed another person, who just want to live with the ones they love in peace. Children that are only interested in playing and having fun. Little babes, who can't even speak, who are just learning to walk, and you're trying to paint the picture as though all of humanity is evil, undeserving of life and the pleasures it brings. And all because of some view that involves entitlement of your God as the sole arbiter of all morality, that any view or content that humanity has is pointless and worthless because it its existence.

Why are you so upset about this? Maybe I'm reading too much into this post, but you sound like someone stomped on your dreams. Look, man, I know exactly where you're coming from, and I would agree with you if not for some important factors:

#1 The world belongs to Satan (he is in charge of this mess, and God intervenes when he deems it necessary, but Satan was never removed from his seat of power)

#2 Mankind is a construct, not meant for permanent physical existence. (we were meant to live as humans first to develop the kind of mind God has, not desperately cling to this physical existence for fear of their being nothing else or nothing greater)

So I obviously can't agree with you on desperately trying to better the world when it still belongs to Satan. After he's removed? Certainly, but I kind of have to be around when that happens don't I? In the meantime ... will I do what I can for people free of charge? Yes. Will I risk my life for other people? Yes(and it's actually easier to do so given my belief system whereas someone like you might have initial reservations given your "one life to live" mentality). I'm not heartless, I'm just more focused on the outcome rather than the crap we deal with on the way.

It's incredibly offensive and disgusting on every level of human compassion that exists. Whether it's the Rwandan genocide or the murder of Kitty Genovese, whether it's the death of my brother or the end of an acquaintance's friend: I. Always. Care. It's one more person that lost their lives in the "grand scheme" of things, never realizing the potential they could have found, the way they could have positively affected others. You might cite those who were amoral, whose existence in places of power brought problems to the world, maybe even ending the lives of many others; I'm even regretful when they die. Because they were just another person. A broken, misshapen shell, sometimes, but people too. They died before ever realizing the mistakes of their actions.

This was already covered up there somewhere, but I need something to type here too so here goes ...

Summary: What you're saying is only true if humans only live once. If that's not true then you need to seriously calm down.

I don't know if the slaughter of the Canaanites ever existed. I can't ever know. But if they did, then I care about men, women, and children of their cultures being systematically purged. No matter how evil I can try and imagine their leaders to be, no matter how sick and twisted I can attempt to paint their armies in battle, I can never, ever excuse for a second murdering an entire people. I refuse to bend over backwards and accommodate the notion that every person just living on a certain soil deserves death. I won't lend credence to the notion that newborn children should be put to the sword because he was born into a world of strife and battle.

They didn't deserve to die because of who they are or where they lived. If they deserved to die for anything, it was sin(don't twist this into "You're glad they died, Phoenix, admit it!" cause I'm not, I'm just not going to cry about it). Most of those people you're referring to are going to have it the easiest in the Great White Throne judgment, simply because they were put down by God himself.

You say you are disappointed in me? I am disappointed in you. I am disappointed that you would dismiss the goodness inside of people, of what it means to exist. Maybe it really is because I think this is all there is. I can't say. But that one life a person is given is their one shot to make a difference. That's all there is. It's their only chance to enjoy the joys of human life, to meet others and understand what it's like to understand and see life before their own eventually ends. I don't know if you will ever have children, Phoenix, but I can't imagine how incredibly lonely and helpless it would feel to look at your own newborn child that you created and truly believe in your deepest depths that they don't deserve to exist.

This last line^ is something I would at another point in my life(about two years ago) FLAMED you for.

Look, that "one life" you keep talking about is God's to give and take. We've got no say in the matter. You think it's evil because you're a human learning about other humans dying, and you clearly know how awful that feels just like I do.

Now listen. The entire point of there being no inherent right to exist is to instill gratitude.

Read that^ again. It's not just an excuse for murder, which doesn't even apply to begin with. It's for the purpose of instilling humility, because proud people can't be reasoned with by God. Take the Egyptians for example.

So if this is what you call a lack of foresight, then I am fine with that. I can live without viewing humanity as a blight that doesn't deserve existence in the first place. I will live, I will continue to grow, and I will perhaps die an old man, surrounded by people I know and love. I believe a long, full life of peace and happiness is something every person deserves. And I will always believe that. That is the "great purpose" that humanity should strive for.

Why strive for something that can't be achieved by humanity alone? I won't call your goals a waste of time, but they will fail in the long run.

As for you thinking that I believe humanity is a blight ... I don't. You're just misinterpreting me again.

Humanity isn't a blight. Humanity has the greatest potential of anything in the entire universe, but that doesn't give us the right to exist in the first place. That potential doesn't earn us anything, not even the air we used up typing these posts. We exist because he allows it, and if he demands it, we'll come to a swift end. Just be thankful that you even exist, and enjoy your life while you can.

[Esau of Isaac]

I had no idea that God stands before a judge to defend himself on these matters.

"Judge, I admit I don't understand the concept of analogies. Could you please explain it to me?"

Sheesh. You make it sound like I wouldn't even help an old lady cross the street. You're just perceiving my viewpoint the wrong way. I leave grand scale issues to God. I take care of worldly matters myself(more on this later).

You wouldn't help an old lady cross the road, if you had even the slightest inclination that God wouldn't want you to.

Misconception. Why does God's plan have to involve a lack of trials and hardships? What will we learn from it? Nothing. We'll turn out just like Satan the spirit who was given the best life, and the most power and beauty out of all the others. No angel ever created was more blessed than him, and look what happened. Humanity will do the exact same thing if God just hands us a good life on a golden platter and takes away all of our problems, only difference here is that we can die.

Then God is not omnipotent. Also, is God omnipotent? Are you saying that God, being omnipotent, cannot have humanity reach salvation without hardships that involve genocide?

That's a pretty weak god dude.

Trials, problems, things God'll let you go through, they're all hardships, some of them are the very growing pains I was referring to.

None of which are thinking beings that can avoid the hurting of others, which God can more than any other cognizant being.

Crazy and agreeing with you are two different things. Just because I'm completely desensitized doesn't mean I'm crazy. You're just taking it personal because you can't comprehend any of this. How could you? You're of the mindset that no matter what else is said, God is evil. Keep in mind, Satan's more interested in this little genocide area than God is.

So your answer is "no".

I need to redefine innocent really quick:

Innocence: Freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil

Well, not to burst your bubble but children don't fit the innocence bill either(at least not this one). You know that the only differences between children and an adults are mileage(so to speak), and childrens' unestablished beliefs as opposed to adults' firmly established beliefs.

Of course there are stances that disagree with the concept of original sin. But hey, they are people that don't want to view babies as sinful creatures deserving to die.

Did I mention you were a sick bastard? I know I mentioned that you were crazy, but I think I should add in sick.

Fine, but the name calling could definitely use some toning down.

I would, if they weren't factual.

I don't like chocolate cereals PERIOD.

Crazy. Insane. Mad. Demented. Unbalanced. Bonkers. Delirious. Psycho. Touched in the head.

Urgh. How long do I have to read this kind of crap? You and I are on two totally different pages here. You're convinced that anything pain that God ever did isn't worth the payoff. That should be up for debate, but you don't want to hear it, and I don't want to hear anymore of this humanitarian crap. Do you actually think you're the first person to try to twist my words into malicious viewpoints so they can hop up on a soap box and start shouting "Evil Phoenix! Evil Phoenix!"?

The first to go at it this hard maybe.

I am convinced that the pain of the genocide that God had inflicted on those people isn't worth the payoff. It's completely different from "anything". Though with the same guy that did such a thing, I would probably disagree with most of the other things he'd want to do. And I'm not twisting your words into malicious viewpoints; they are malicious by nature, man. I don't think you're evil, but I do think you hold a pathetically evil viewpoint.

How could I possibly tell huh? I'm crazy remember? Pick your opinion of me and stick with it. I don't like comments like these.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, I guess.

Sorry for calling it a scheme. I meant "Plan that you can do nothing to stop". As for anti-genocide, your goal appears to be a better world. That's nice, and I can respect that, but humanity can't create a better world. You talk about God's plan not coming to pass as if humanity can accomplish better on its own. With humanity governing itself, we're closer to extinction than a better world ... unless that's the better world you meant, in which case, genocide is still in.

Humanity can create a better world than anything the God of the Bible could hope to accomplish. We're already ahead of the world that such a being envisioned, considering that the only purpose said god was hoping for was one in which all the people carry an unnatural devotion of worship towards him. Especially when he tries to get it by slaughtering people left and right, including women and children.

I'm not trying to paint you as the "crazy" one. I'm trying to paint you as the "morality obsessed, overly compassionate, self righteous" one. Slight difference.

The real reason that I'm so apathetic towards genocide(all genocide, not just God's commanded genocide), is because unlike you, I don't believe in just one life for mankind. If I did, I would agree with you. But no I'm the crazy evil bastard. Get over yourself.

You heard it here, folks. His amorality is caused by his belief the afterlife exists. That's why it's okay to do any of the worst things to people. They'll exist afterwards anyways. So it's much less bad to rape and murder as much as you want! And if God tells you to, it's actually a good thing!

Hebrews 9:27

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (speaking of the Great White Throne judgment)

The sad thing is that it is preceded by such peaceful, passionate words that I wish your beliefs held to more powerfully.

Hebrews 9:20-25 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

If only you could agree with holding this attitude towards all people, and not just your own.

You know, we're all going to die ... some sooner than others. If you can't deal with that without blowing your top at the first person who doesn't see it the way you do then you're just an empathetic bully.

We're all going to die; but no one people deserve genocide. No one deserves to be murdered.

Why are you so upset about this? Maybe I'm reading too much into this post, but you sound like someone stomped on your dreams. Look, man, I know exactly where you're coming from, and I would agree with you if not for some important factors:

#1 The world belongs to Satan (he is in charge of this mess, and God intervenes when he deems it necessary, but Satan was never removed from his seat of power)

#2 Mankind is a construct, not meant for permanent physical existence. (we were meant to live as humans first to develop the kind of mind God has, not desperately cling to this physical existence for fear of their being nothing else or nothing greater)

I've made it quite clear why I'm so upset, Phoenix; you're complicit with the slaughter of innocents. It has nothing to do with my dreams. I'll have you know that my progress on the construction of the Gundam is quite within line of my projections.

#1 The world doesn't belong to Satan. You're alone in thinking that.

#2 Not tolerating genocide has nothing to do with clinging to life.

So I obviously can't agree with you on desperately trying to better the world when it still belongs to Satan. After he's removed? Certainly, but I kind of have to be around when that happens don't I? In the meantime ... will I do what I can for people free of charge? Yes. Will I risk my life for other people? Yes(and it's actually easier to do so given my belief system whereas someone like you might have initial reservations given your "one life to live" mentality). I'm not heartless, I'm just more focused on the outcome rather than the crap we deal with on the way.

Whoah, whoah. Risk your life? Work free of charge? Where is this coming from, Phoenix? Just one post ago you were chastising me for saying that I care about all victims of genocide, citing the evil nature of man as to why that is impossible. Why are you, ONLY AN EVIL PIG-DISGUSTING HUMAN, even considering helping anyone else? Let alone without the cost of doing such a thing being murdering him and his family?

You're not heartless, you're just incredibly confused and are trying to supplement your depressing worldview through cherry-picked passages of the Book.

This was already covered up there somewhere, but I need something to type here too so here goes ...

Summary: What you're saying is only true if humans only live once. If that's not true then you need to seriously calm down.

No, I don't need to calm down. It doesn't matter if people ascend to another plane of existence and then return later. It doesn't matter if there's some kind of karmic system in place; genocide is still going to be a horrible, unacceptable practice, Phoenix.

They didn't deserve to die because of who they are or where they lived. If they deserved to die for anything, it was sin(don't twist this into "You're glad they died, Phoenix, admit it!" cause I'm not, I'm just not going to cry about it). Most of those people you're referring to are going to have it the easiest in the Great White Throne judgment, simply because they were put down by God himself.

Of course they deserved to die for who they are and where they lived, at least in the eyes of the all-seeing axe-murderer. I thought you were in the loop on where this all arises from...

This last line^ is something I would at another point in my life(about two years ago) FLAMED you for.

Look, that "one life" you keep talking about is God's to give and take. We've got no say in the matter. You think it's evil because you're a human learning about other humans dying, and you clearly know how awful that feels just like I do.

Now listen. The entire point of there being no inherent right to exist is to instill gratitude.

Read that^ again. It's not just an excuse for murder, which doesn't even apply to begin with. It's for the purpose of instilling humility, because proud people can't be reasoned with by God. Take the Egyptians for example.

No. People can be reasoned with. Murdering them will only cause them to fear this god. If you were trying to get your point across to a hundred people in a room, do you bring a few up on stage and murder them and their families to get everyone to shut up? No, you fucking don't. It's irrelevant as to whether humanity has a say in the matter. You don't just bend over backwards in such a situation. You have morals, and you stick by them no matter what another being says. God wants to murder some people? Fan-fucking-tastic, let him do it himself and get bored at it, rather than following blindly his words. You know how this entire thing could have actually been avoided? If people didn't listen to the nagging voice that commanded the genocide of people.

It's kind of funny that God would choose such an ineffective and horrible means of control. It's almost like he's a construct designed by a culture that thrived on such a being, rather than actually existing.

Why strive for something that can't be achieved by humanity alone? I won't call your goals a waste of time, but they will fail in the long run.

They might, but at least everyone else could say that they gave their best, rather than giving up like you wish.

As for you thinking that I believe humanity is a blight ... I don't. You're just misinterpreting me again.

Humanity isn't a blight. Humanity has the greatest potential of anything in the entire universe, but that doesn't give us the right to exist in the first place. That potential doesn't earn us anything, not even the air we used up typing these posts. We exist because he allows it, and if he demands it, we'll come to a swift end. Just be thankful that you even exist, and enjoy your life while you can.

You know what I'm thankful for? I'm thankful that your god doesn't exist. I am glad that such a terrifying being is either gone or too bored to commit himself to doing anything, because I can't imagine the kind of terror everyone would have to live in wondering if they were going to be the next ones.

[Phoenix]

Meh. Brown.

"Judge, I admit I don't understand the concept of analogies. Could you please explain it to me?"

I was explaining that bit to Revan. You must have missed it.

You wouldn't help an old lady cross the road, if you had even the slightest inclination that God wouldn't want you to.

You're way too presumptuous.

Then God is not omnipotent. Also, is God omnipotent? Are you saying that God, being omnipotent, cannot have humanity reach salvation without hardships that involve genocide?

That's a pretty weak god dude.

Not a weak God, a weak world populous.

None of which are thinking beings that can avoid the hurting of others, which God can more than any other cognizant being.

Missing the point ...

So your answer is "no".

My answer is this ... Turn off the haughtiness.

Of course there are stances that disagree with the concept of original sin. But hey, they are people that don't want to view babies as sinful creatures deserving to die.

I find it interesting that you can so inaccurately expound on everything I say and get away with it.

Did I mention you were a sick bastard? I know I mentioned that you were crazy, but I think I should add in sick.

What does this blind assessment have to do with anything? You're already wrong, but what does this have to do with anything?

I would, if they weren't factual.

You clearly don't have any facts on this.

Crazy. Insane. Mad. Demented. Unbalanced. Bonkers. Delirious. Psycho. Touched in the head.

Bias, Bias, Bias, Bias, Bias, Ass hurt, Bias. That's my observation.

I am convinced that the pain of the genocide that God had inflicted on those people isn't worth the payoff. It's completely different from "anything". Though with the same guy that did such a thing, I would probably disagree with most of the other things he'd want to do. And I'm not twisting your words into malicious viewpoints; they are malicious by nature, man. I don't think you're evil, but I do think you hold a pathetically evil viewpoint.

New fun fact. Whenever Esau becomes convinced of something, it is automatically a fact, and you're a sick bastard if you disagree in the slightest no matter what the context is.[/sarcasm]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, I guess.

Not when the arms have been removed.

Humanity can create a better world than anything the God of the Bible could hope to accomplish. We're already ahead of the world that such a being envisioned, considering that the only purpose said god was hoping for was one in which all the people carry an unnatural devotion of worship towards him. Especially when he tries to get it by slaughtering people left and right, including women and children.

There is not one thing we've argued that you haven't taken completely out of context and twisted into something else.

You heard it here, folks. His amorality is caused by his belief the afterlife exists. That's why it's okay to do any of the worst things to people. They'll exist afterwards anyways. So it's much less bad to rape and murder as much as you want! And if God tells you to, it's actually a good thing!

You've got to be kidding me. Did I say afterlife? No. I said resurrection, and even that alone wasn't the sole reason, but once again, like every other person with a grudge you have to take whatever you can find and twist it until it fits your argument. I despise people who do that. You can't even honestly comeback at someone without distorting even a single quote.

The sad thing is that it is preceded by such peaceful, passionate words that I wish your beliefs held to more powerfully.

Hebrews 9:20-25 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

If only you could agree with holding this attitude towards all people, and not just your own.

You don't know me.

You don't know what attitude I hold toward all people because you haven't been listening.

Since you're not listening, and just making up garbage at every turn, I'll leave you to that. Arguing with idiots is one thing, but arguing with self righteous opinionated humanitarian liars like you is just a waste of time. Your only goal now seems to be to insult me at every turn. You twist everything I say into ridiculous examples, and you paint God as some anti human tyrant.

We're all going to die; but no one people deserve genocide. No one deserves to be murdered.

People probably don't deserve to be murdered, but what we deserve and what we get are usually different anyway.

I've made it quite clear why I'm so upset, Phoenix; you're complicit with the slaughter of innocents. It has nothing to do with my dreams. I'll have you know that my progress on the construction of the Gundam is quite within line of my projections.

#1 The world doesn't belong to Satan. You're alone in thinking that.

#2 Not tolerating genocide has nothing to do with clinging to life.

So you're upset because some guy on the internet that you never liked to begin with is by your own claims "confused and is a sick bastard"? How does that effect you in the slightest?

#1 Good example of ignoring the obvious

#2 Point missed

#3 Not tolerating having my quotes twisted and distorted is not being crazy

Whoah, whoah. Risk your life? Work free of charge? Where is this coming from, Phoenix? Just one post ago you were chastising me for saying that I care about all victims of genocide, citing the evil nature of man as to why that is impossible. Why are you, ONLY AN EVIL PIG-DISGUSTING HUMAN, even considering helping anyone else? Let alone without the cost of doing such a thing being murdering him and his family?

If you can't answer this, you should get counseling because it should be obvious why I'd help other people. I'm not perfect. I am not capable of an unselfish act as a human being, but I won't let that stop me from striving for what I've been taught to strive for. That includes helping others if the opportunity arises.

The problem here is that you're painting a picture of me based on one or two areas I've touched on(yes just touched on), and judging me as a person based on that alone. Like I said, you're incredibly shortsighted, and it's disappointing.

You're not heartless, you're just incredibly confused and are trying to supplement your depressing worldview through cherry-picked passages of the Book.

No I'm bored, and passing the time by correcting your misinterpretations about God and myself. My view of the world is hardly depressing at all, you just don't know what I believe on the matter. I've only touched on things.

No, I don't need to calm down. It doesn't matter if people ascend to another plane of existence and then return later. It doesn't matter if there's some kind of karmic system in place; genocide is still going to be a horrible, unacceptable practice, Phoenix.

Can't you understand a single word I've said? For crying out loud, man! I never said that we die, go somewhere else, and then return later. I am not a traditional Christian. I adhere to none of those doctrines. When people die, they go no where. They simply stay dead until resurrected. It's that simple.

Of course they deserved to die for who they are and where they lived, at least in the eyes of the all-seeing axe-murderer. I thought you were in the loop on where this all arises from...

Twist twist twist. I'm not going to argue this from your perspective because it's based on lies and sometimes it's based on christian beliefs that I don't have.

No. People can be reasoned with. Murdering them will only cause them to fear this god. If you were trying to get your point across to a hundred people in a room, do you bring a few up on stage and murder them and their families to get everyone to shut up? No, you fucking don't. It's irrelevant as to whether humanity has a say in the matter. You don't just bend over backwards in such a situation. You have morals, and you stick by them no matter what another being says. God wants to murder some people? Fan-fucking-tastic, let him do it himself and get bored at it, rather than following blindly his words. You know how this entire thing could have actually been avoided? If people didn't listen to the nagging voice that commanded the genocide of people.

Yeah, people can be reasoned with ... just like you can be reasoned with, and just like the Egyptians could be reasoned with, and the Nazis, and the Japanese, and the North Koreans. Yeah, people can definitely be reasoned with. That's why there are no wars or needless suffering in our world. [/sarcasm]

It's kind of funny that God would choose such an ineffective and horrible means of control. It's almost like he's a construct designed by a culture that thrived on such a being, rather than actually existing.

I see what you did there.

They might, but at least everyone else could say that they gave their best, rather than giving up like you wish.

Presumptuous. You don't know what I want/wish/desire. Don't pretend that you know my intentions based on some touched subjects, especially when you're not even comprehending it properly to begin with.

You know what I'm thankful for? I'm thankful that your god doesn't exist. I am glad that such a terrifying being is either gone or too bored to commit himself to doing anything, because I can't imagine the kind of terror everyone would have to live in wondering if they were going to be the next ones.

You're thankful for that? Well, whatever floats your boat. When it sinks let me know. I'll give you a hand, and we'll pretend like this never happened.

[Esau of Isaac]

I was explaining that bit to Revan. You must have missed it.

You were explaining parts that Revan didn't say to Revan? That's weird.

You're way too presumptuous.

You're way too crazy.

Not a weak God, a weak world populous.

That doesn't at all explain why God resorted to such weak methods, which ended in failure.

Of course it's their fault those children of his couldn't murder people quick enough.

Missing the point ...

No, I'm not. Growing pains are unavoidable. They are the result of non-intelligent beings. Growing pains can't say, "I should stop from hurting these thinking, feeling people, as it's injurious and needlessly hurtful." God can.

My answer is this ... Turn off the haughtiness.

I'm pretty sure your answer was a no.

I find it interesting that you can so inaccurately expound on everything I say and get away with it.

You always speak of these inaccuracies and never point them out; are you saying that you don't believe in the concept of original sin, despite preaching it in this very topic?

What does this blind assessment have to do with anything? You're already wrong, but what does this have to do with anything?

The same thing that your assessment of the evils of the human race has to do with anything?

You clearly don't have any facts on this.

My goal is to find something that you don't find factual. That's when I know I'm actually moving in the right direction.

Bias, Bias, Bias, Bias, Bias, Ass hurt, Bias. That's my observation.

Very biased. If only we could find a third-party that was also complacent with the murder of thousands of innocent people. Then you might stand a chance at being labeled sane.

New fun fact. Whenever Esau becomes convinced of something, it is automatically a fact, and you're a sick bastard if you disagree in the slightest no matter what the context is.[/sarcasm]

You can try and spin this all you want, Phoenix; you simply won't be able to do it; there is no contextual situation that makes the murder of half a dozen civilizations hunky dory. The context of the situation is people living in a land designated by God to belong to his people, and when they don't budge, he orders their systematic destruction down to the babe. There's your context. Now that we're all up to speed, let me try and ponder whether I agree with the proposition that this is an okay thing. Hmm, yeah, fuck no.

Not when the arms have been removed.

Give it time, Phoenix. I'm sure that day will come.

There is not one thing we've argued that you haven't taken completely out of context and twisted into something else.

Give me the full context, then. You've talked about the context of this slaughter since square one, but you haven't been gifted with the good grace to shine the light on our poor plebeian minds thus far.

You've got to be kidding me. Did I say afterlife? No. I said resurrection, and even that alone wasn't the sole reason, but once again, like every other person with a grudge you have to take whatever you can find and twist it until it fits your argument. I despise people who do that. You can't even honestly comeback at someone without distorting even a single quote.

I can see you still refuse to accept your own book's words.

I thought that months and months down the way would've changed it all. I was wrong. DEAD WRONG.

You don't know me.

You don't know what attitude I hold toward all people because you haven't been listening.

Since you're not listening, and just making up garbage at every turn, I'll leave you to that. Arguing with idiots is one thing, but arguing with self righteous opinionated humanitarian liars like you is just a waste of time. Your only goal now seems to be to insult me at every turn. You twist everything I say into ridiculous examples, and you paint God as some anti human tyrant.

I have, very regrettably, read every word you have typed into your torture box for me to be punished through my ocular receptors. It is, very much so, a waste of your time to debate with my own humanitarian viewpoint; mostly because free-thinking men and women aren't going to agree with the hateful stance you preach unless they are somewhat touched in the head. It's silliness aimed at painting humanity as undeserving of anything, at the mercy of an ancient deity of unbridled wrath and an odd propensity to punish needlessly.

I paint God as an anti-human tyrant because he tends to be such a being, as he possesses the abilities to end suffering but refuses to do so in any means that don't involve pointless difficulties. I don't have to twist your words, Phoenix, they're already pretty fucking twisted as it is.

People probably don't deserve to be murdered, but what we deserve and what we get are usually different anyway.

An omnipotent being should be able to spare people that don't deserve to be murdered, especially when he's the one that is giving the orders. Let me try and throw a good one in; instead of calling for the complete annihilation of all men, women, children (and even homes and cattle), he could have said to spare the suckling babes since they are not deserving of being stabbed to death.

Good start, I'd say.

So you're upset because some guy on the internet that you never liked to begin with is by your own claims "confused and is a sick bastard"? How does that effect you in the slightest?

It upsets me that I am speaking to a person that is content with the slaughter of people.

I know. Totally crazy.

#1 Good example of ignoring the obvious

Yes, let me ignore the obvious total lack of evidence you possess.

#2 Point missed

Your point was that people aren't meant to cling to their material existence. My point was that it's irrelevant, as not wanting to be murdered senselessly has nothing to do with idea of clinging to life.

You were wrong. I know. I wasn't shocked at all either.

#3 Not tolerating having my quotes twisted and distorted is not being crazy

Further proof that you are going crazy; there was no #3.

If you can't answer this, you should get counseling because it should be obvious why I'd help other people. I'm not perfect. I am not capable of an unselfish act as a human being, but I won't let that stop me from striving for what I've been taught to strive for. That includes helping others if the opportunity arises.

The problem here is that you're painting a picture of me based on one or two areas I've touched on(yes just touched on), and judging me as a person based on that alone. Like I said, you're incredibly shortsighted, and it's disappointing.

I'm not painting a picture, I'm showcasing a photo. You can't follow up talk of how disgusting humanity is by saying that you're going to help others; that's just contradictory man. I mean, if you were to risk your life in murdering people, that might make sense considering your position. Or if you were to charge the man by ripping off his legs and throwing him in a vat of salt, I might believe you. Because then it would fit the mindset you're trying to paint my earlier assertions with.

No I'm bored, and passing the time by correcting your misinterpretations about God and myself. My view of the world is hardly depressing at all, you just don't know what I believe on the matter. I've only touched on things.

Being fine with genocide is a pretty depressing worldview. You don't need to touch on that with much more than a fingertip to get that vibe.

Can't you understand a single word I've said? For crying out loud, man! I never said that we die, go somewhere else, and then return later. I am not a traditional Christian. I adhere to none of those doctrines. When people die, they go no where. They simply stay dead until resurrected. It's that simple.

I know. I was just making examples. I'm already aware of your erroneous interpretations of the good book, remember? We've had this discussion before, and I endured your constant diarrhea of the keyboard once before. It's most of the reason why my posts devolve in what they are now; any structured and meaningful rebuttals are kind of batted away by nonsensical statements or straight-out ignoring. I still remember, to this day, spending like an hour outlining my grievances with your interpretations, and you just replying about something else, also completely incorrect. It's like when you find out your gun is out of bullets, you drop it like it's on fire and reach further into the box of Batshit Insane Worldviews and produce another nugget of gold.

Twist twist twist. I'm not going to argue this from your perspective because it's based on lies and sometimes it's based on christian beliefs that I don't have.

"I'm going to ignore established biblical canon in favor of my personal views on the subject". This is what every single religious argument you have ever made can be summed up with. It was true the first time I debate with you, and it is true now. You simply refuse to actually acquaint yourself with the material; you pick a few passages, and warp major portions of Christianity to suit your worldviews.

Yeah, people can be reasoned with ... just like you can be reasoned with, and just like the Egyptians could be reasoned with, and the Nazis, and the Japanese, and the North Koreans. Yeah, people can definitely be reasoned with. That's why there are no wars or needless suffering in our world. [/sarcasm]

Man, you know what would have been awesome? If there was a way for God to show himself to people, or a way by which he had the power to make events occur without needless bloodshed.

Man, it would be so cool if someone had super powers that just let them do whatever they want. I bet we'd call that person FUCKING GOD.

Presumptuous. You don't know what I want/wish/desire. Don't pretend that you know my intentions based on some touched subjects, especially when you're not even comprehending it properly to begin with.

You could say "I WANT THE DEATH AND SLAUGHTER OF EVERYTHING HUMAN", and if I were to repeat that you want such a thing, you'd respond with "YOU DON'T KNOW ME, YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT I WANT".

You're thankful for that? Well, whatever floats your boat. When it sinks let me know. I'll give you a hand, and we'll pretend like this never happened.

Are you sure you'll have a free hand? Slaughtering defenseless people is going to be a tough chore when that time comes along, Phoenix, and God knows how many people are deserving of being killed in cold blood. Wait, the answer is ALL OF THEM, MY BAD.

[Phoenix]

Green.

No, I'm not. Growing pains are unavoidable. They are the result of non-intelligent beings. Growing pains can't say, "I should stop from hurting these thinking, feeling people, as it's injurious and needlessly hurtful." God can.

Growing pains were a metaphor for the hardships we face, not the God that allows them to happen. Stop twisting my words.

You always speak of these inaccuracies and never point them out; are you saying that you don't believe in the concept of original sin, despite preaching it in this very topic?

I thought the inaccuracies were obvious especially when I stated them numerous times.

Well for starters, original sin isn't something I preached or even mentioned before. You just made another grand leap of presumptuousness just like you always do.

The same thing that your assessment of the evils of the human race has to do with anything?

Oh boo f*cking hoo. Someone comes along and mentions that humans don't have the right to live, and so they should be grateful and strive for greatness, and you turn it into an anti-human emo war. Not only that, but you're completely incapable of comprehending even basic meanings.

My goal is to find something that you don't find factual. That's when I know I'm actually moving in the right direction.

If that's your goal, then you might want to stay clear of the bible in the first place because more than 90% of that book is up for debate.

Very biased. If only we could find a third-party that was also complacent with the murder of thousands of innocent people. Then you might stand a chance at being labeled sane.

If only we could find some whiny little girl that was also insistent on calling me a sick heartless bastard. Then you might actually make a point against me instead of just tossing on labels.

You can try and spin this all you want, Phoenix; you simply won't be able to do it; there is no contextual situation that makes the murder of half a dozen civilizations hunky dory. The context of the situation is people living in a land designated by God to belong to his people, and when they don't budge, he orders their systematic destruction down to the babe. There's your context. Now that we're all up to speed, let me try and ponder whether I agree with the proposition that this is an okay thing. Hmm, yeah, fuck no.

Listen carefully. I do not twist. If anything I make a decent effort to untwist your bullsh*t with context addition. You've obviously had the wrong impression from the get go, so let me point something out to you so that you might begin to understand why your half assed name calling is off base to begin with.

I am not bound by any human moral code(what comes next is not a human moral code, that's my belief). I don't believe that murder is wrong because I don't want to be murdered. I believe it's wrong because it's in the ten commandments. I don't believe stealing is wrong because I don't want to get robbed. I believe it's wrong because it's in the ten commandments. Etc.

In short, you're applying your own moral code, and I'm applying God's(because mine wasn't much different from yours and it never did me or anyone else much good).

Remember this^ because it's pretty damn important.

Give me the full context, then. You've talked about the context of this slaughter since square one, but you haven't been gifted with the good grace to shine the light on our poor plebeian minds thus far.

I can't give you half of the bible in one post, man.

Even if I could, I'd have to find the best translations, and somehow keep you from twisting the sh*t out of them. That's not gonna happen.

I can see you still refuse to accept your own book's words.

Not when they're being taken out of context and used as an anti God argument. Maybe if you could cut out the former I would listen to you, but by the time I've read even six words of your post I can already tell you and I are in two totally different versions of the same story. In my version God has underlying reasons for everything he does. In yours he just wants control of an ancient race of people and doesn't exist. I'm not even going to bother trying to correct your version since the bible acknowledges God's existence whereas you don't. Your version is headf*cked, mine isn't. There's no reason to even bother with yours.

I thought that months and months down the way would've changed it all. I was wrong. DEAD WRONG.

Hey, how about this? How about you actually start reading what people post instead of going on thoughtless morality rampages huh?

I have, very regrettably, read every word you have typed into your torture box for me to be punished through my ocular receptors.

BULLSH*T.

It is, very much so, a waste of your time to debate with my own humanitarian viewpoint;

Because you have garbage retention.

mostly because free-thinking men and women aren't going to agree with the hateful stance you preach unless they are somewhat touched in the head.

You love to throw examples of what I'm talking about in my face don't you? My stance isn't hateful. You're just too simplistic to come up with anything else. I don't know who's a bigger offender in this area, you or Sean Hannity.

It's silliness aimed at painting humanity as undeserving of anything, at the mercy of an ancient deity of unbridled wrath and an odd propensity to punish needlessly.

You say needless, but that's because you haven't been paying attention ... shocker.

I paint God as an anti-human tyrant because he tends to be such a being, as he possesses the abilities to end suffering but refuses to do so in any means that don't involve pointless difficulties. I don't have to twist your words, Phoenix, they're already pretty fucking twisted as it is.

You don't have to twist my words? GREAT!!! Then stop doing it.

By the way, can you explain just why God should just ride in and end all suffering? It's already written that he will, why does it have to fit into your schedule exactly? I mean ... who are you?

An omnipotent being should be able to spare people that don't deserve to be murdered, especially when he's the one that is giving the orders. Let me try and throw a good one in; instead of calling for the complete annihilation of all men, women, children (and even homes and cattle), he could have said to spare the suckling babes since they are not deserving of being stabbed to death.

Good start, I'd say.

"An omnipotent being should be able to spare people that don't deserve to be murdered,"

Your words^. Can you explain the difference between ability and will? Cause if you can't, that might explain some things that have been bugging me. You seem to think that your way is the best option. If it was, either it would have been handled that way, or it isn't the best option to begin with. We both have our obvious leanings here I already know.

"Let me try and throw a good one in;"

FAIL

"instead of calling for the complete annihilation of all men, women, children, he could have said to spare the suckling babes since they are not deserving of being stabbed to death."

Great plan, because the children of the slain won't one day find out what happened and seek revenge. That never happens. People don't get bitten in the ass like that. Surely. Those babes won't be discriminated against, or treated differently, or even abused by their parent conquering God followers will they? Surely they won't. People being forced to foster parent babies never goes wrong ... ever ... never ever.[/sarcasm]

I prefer the Great White Throne option mainly because these people will all be together again in the end anyway.

It upsets me that I am speaking to a person that is content with the slaughter of people.

I know. Totally crazy.

Classic PMS.

Yes, let me ignore the obvious total lack of evidence you possess.

If I quote the bible he'll whine and bitch about me quoting the bible. If I don't quote the bible he'll whine and bitch about a lack of evidence. What to do here ...

Your point was that people aren't meant to cling to their material existence. My point was that it's irrelevant, as not wanting to be murdered senselessly has nothing to do with idea of clinging to life.

You were wrong. I know. I wasn't shocked at all either.

Wrong. My point was that humans weren't meant to exist on a physical plain for good. Clinging to there existence was in parenthesis(as in a side note), and you obviously inserted that as the actual point. It wasn't. Here's an example of you twisting my words. This one's just a misdemeanor, but I thought I should point it out. If you'll take something that small and f*ck it up, then you will probably do it with more important things too.

Further proof that you are going crazy; there was no #3.

There is now, so deal with it.

I'm not painting a picture, I'm showcasing a photo. You can't follow up talk of how disgusting humanity is by saying that you're going to help others; that's just contradictory man. I mean, if you were to risk your life in murdering people, that might make sense considering your position. Or if you were to charge the man by ripping off his legs and throwing him in a vat of salt, I might believe you. Because then it would fit the mindset you're trying to paint my earlier assertions with.

Let me explain just why I can follow up a talk about how disgusting humanity is by saying that I would help others.

Human nature is sick, and entirely selfish(I would know, I'm human). I follow a moral code that demands I combat my own nature. The conflict is necessary. My striving to be overcome myself is the goal. I may not love people unselfishly, but I certainly won't let that stop me from trying to.

The way I was painting you earlier was this:

Esau has human nature, and thus he will only think selfishly in his attempts to whine and gripe about how wrong it is for humans to be killed by order of God. He's just using them to make a point. I doubt he actually cares about people he's never met. Even if he does, it's probably just obligatory since he brought them into the argument in the first place.

That^ was my picture. Read it again just in case.

Being fine with genocide is a pretty depressing worldview. You don't need to touch on that with much more than a fingertip to get that vibe.

Not depressing, realistic.

I know. I was just making examples. I'm already aware of your erroneous interpretations of the good book, remember?

Oh I remember. Too bad you've got it backwards yet again.

We've had this discussion before, and I endured your constant diarrhea of the keyboard once before.

There's no prize at the end of this if that was what you were hoping for.

It's most of the reason why my posts devolve in what they are now; any structured and meaningful rebuttals are kind of batted away by nonsensical statements or straight-out ignoring.

Instead of just flat out stating this, why not prove it? Oh wait you can't, because your viewpoints are as subjective as mine. What you claim as nonsensical might not actually be nonsensical. We use two different versions of the same event remember?

I still remember, to this day, spending like an hour outlining my grievances with your interpretations, and you just replying about something else, also completely incorrect.

Right. Because you're automatically right based on your own interpretation. If that's refuted in the slightest, the other person is wrong. No debate, just mockery. You see this is where a lot of the anti-atheist mindset comes from.

It's like when you find out your gun is out of bullets, you drop it like it's on fire and reach further into the box of Batshit Insane Worldviews and produce another nugget of gold.

My gun doesn't run out of bullets. I can continue this back and forth crap with you for as long as you want.

"I'm going to ignore established biblical canon in favor of my personal views on the subject". This is what every single religious argument you have ever made can be summed up with. It was true the first time I debate with you, and it is true now. You simply refuse to actually acquaint yourself with the material; you pick a few passages, and warp major portions of Christianity to suit your worldviews.

Established Biblical Canan ... ... ... did you just go there?

Anyway ... I don't ignore biblical facts, I only ignore christian doctrines and the interpretations of events that said doctrines are based on.

For example why would I pay any attention to an argument about Jesus Christ suffocating instead of bleeding out? He was stabbed. It's right in the book. What happens when you get stabbed in your side with a spear, do you suffocate or do you bleed out?

Man, you know what would have been awesome? If there was a way for God to show himself to people, or a way by which he had the power to make events occur without needless bloodshed.

Man, it would be so cool if someone had super powers that just let them do whatever they want. I bet we'd call that person FUCKING GOD.

There's a time and a place for that sort of flashiness. I know what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

The Isrealites had God pulling miracles left and right, and he manifested huge calamity on that mountain to prove he was there, and they still spent most of their time bitching and griping. The only difference there might have been with the Canaanites is that they were already home, so the thoughtless rebellions would have taken place a bit sooner.

You could say "I WANT THE DEATH AND SLAUGHTER OF EVERYTHING HUMAN", and if I were to repeat that you want such a thing, you'd respond with "YOU DON'T KNOW ME, YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT I WANT".

Oh! Oh! Let's try this right now!

Ahem ...

"I WANT EVERY HUMAN BEING TO FOLLOW GOD(my version of God not other gods lol)."

Are you sure you'll have a free hand? Slaughtering defenseless people is going to be a tough chore when that time comes along, Phoenix, and God knows how many people are deserving of being killed in cold blood. Wait, the answer is ALL OF THEM, MY BAD.

If you keep twisting, you're going to break something.

Luckily, I won't have to kill anyone(trust me on this one).

[Prince of Ravens]

I paint God as an anti-human tyrant because he tends to be such a being,[...]

So you believe in God then? Then how come you don't believe in all of Him?

[...]as he possesses the abilities to end suffering but refuses to do so in any means that don't involve pointless difficulties.

You mean pointless difficulties like... admitting to failure? That's pretty hard, I guess, but not pointless given the reward.

I don't have to twist your words, Phoenix, they're already pretty fucking twisted as it is

Yeah, Phoenix. He's not going to understand. I don't remember the address, but... "The words of the wise are folly to the fool." Or something like that.

[Rewjeo]

Wait, you think murder's wrong, but genocide is alright? I haven't been paying much attention, but that just sounds wrong. It's BETTER to do something that's wrong MORE?

[Phoenix]

Yeah, Phoenix. He's not going to understand. I don't remember the address, but... "The words of the wise are folly to the fool." Or something like that.

There's no wisdom in this thread, just mockery and half assed combacks. I knowwhat Esau is saying, but I still disagree, that's not a lack of understanding, it's a lack of agreement.

Wait, you think murder's wrong, but genocide is alright? I haven't been paying much attention, but that just sounds wrong. It's BETTER to do something that's wrong MORE?

No. That's not what I said. Do you want to start paying attention or should I explain it again?

[Prince of Ravens]

There's no wisdom in this thread, just mockery and half assed combacks. I knowwhat Esau is saying, but I still disagree, that's not a lack of understanding, it's a lack of agreement.

Let me clarify. If he understood what you were saying, he could bring arguments against you. Instead, he'd twisting words. He'll never agree with you because of this, nor will he actually care to try.

[Janissary]

Well, thanks for once again talking down to those who are not Christians and painting the general Christian population as self righteous people who mock those who don't understand truth.

I wonder what Christians are thinking sometimes.

[Phoenix Wright]

Phoenix, think about it. You agree with genocide. Yet, not from some "common person" but from an omnibenevolent being. What type of omnibenevolent being orders the DESTRUCTION of a people just over land? A land that doesn't even matter. God could have had a floating holy land if he fucking wanted to. Why that piece of the Earth? Especially because, you know (in your own words), the world belongs to Lucifer. There is no "holy evil" land.

So you believe in God then? Then how come you don't believe in all of Him?

Missing the point.

You mean pointless difficulties like... admitting to failure? That's pretty hard, I guess, but not pointless given the reward.

Missing the point.

Yeah, Phoenix. He's not going to understand. I don't remember the address, but... "The words of the wise are folly to the fool." Or something like that.

Missing the point.

It seems we've got two people that agree to genocide just because God told 'em to. I don't know the original speaker but, "If God told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?" Meaning (I have a feeling you're going to miss my point) that if God told you to commit suicide, would you? If I can remember correctly, those who take their own life go to hell. So, would you obey God and go to hell, or disobey Him?

Edited July 4, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Phoenix]

Let me clarify. If he understood what you were saying, he could bring arguments against you. Instead, he'd twisting words. He'll never agree with you because of this, nor will he actually care to try.

Oh whoops. I had myself and Esau mixed up in your post. Can't say I haven't done that before.

@ Janissary

The the typical stereotypical view of both sides is this:

Christians: Blind, abstract, evidence ignoring, philosophical, evasive, etc.

Atheists: Insensitive, hateful, objective, crude, matter of factual, liberal, etc.

Hey, we're back on topic.

@ MGS

If God told me to kill myself, would I? Sure why not? I've got nothing better to do.

Jokes aside, yes, I'm not actually a christian by today's standards so you're kind of coming at me with doctrinal questions that don't really apply here.

For one I don't believe that people who die go to some place to be tortured. If I did, I might not follow God in the first place if not out of blind fear.

As for the holy land issue. I don't think anything is holy unless God is present there. All that's left of the so called holy land is a religious mess in the middle east.

I believe that God placed the Jews where they were for events that would take place later on. Look at them, they've still got that land even to today.

No one really cared that I pointed out a resurrection, or that those people weren't killed unjustly. It's just wrong because the act itself is brutal according to Esau, and I can understand that. I wouldn't normally disagree with him on that, but the fact is that God isn't subject to the law. That's important to remember because the ten commandments have some pretty specific applications that can't work with spirit beings. I don't acknowledge morality outside of the ten commandments PERIOD, and that's why my viewpoint is being made to look so cold.

[Prince of Ravens]

1. God would not tell me to jump off a bridge because God hates suicide and telling me to kill myself would go agianst His nature.

2. When was genocide justified by God?

Missing the point.

Enlighten me.

[Phoenix Wright]

Oh whoops. I had myself and Esau mixed up in your post. Can't say I haven't done that before.

@ Janissary

The the typical stereotypical view of both sides is this:

Christians: Blind, abstract, evidence ignoring, philosophical, evasive, etc.

Atheists: Insensitive, hateful, objective, crude, matter of factual, liberal, etc.

Hey, we're back on topic.

lol.

If God told me to kill myself, would I? Sure why not? I've got nothing better to do.

Jokes aside, yes, I'm not actually a christian by today's standards so you're kind of coming at me with doctrinal questions that don't really apply here.

For one I don't believe that people who die go to some place to be tortured. If I did, I might not follow God in the first place if not out of blind fear.

That actually wasn't directed at you. Fair enough though.

As for the holy land issue. I don't think anything is holy unless God is present there. All that's left of the so called holy land is a religious mess in the middle east.

I believe that God placed the Jews where they were for events that would take place later on. Look at them, they've still got that land even to today.

No one really cared that I pointed out a resurrection, or that those people weren't killed unjustly. It's just wrong because the act itself is brutal according to Esau, and I can understand that. I wouldn't normally disagree with him on that, but the fact is that God isn't subject to the law. That's important to remember because the ten commandments have some pretty specific applications that can't work with spirit beings. I don't acknowledge morality outside of the ten commandments PERIOD, and that's why my viewpoint is being made to look so cold.

The act itself is brutal. Whether it is or not is not the issue according to you. Tell me though, why would God break one of His OWN commandments? Why would He contradict Himself like that? It's like your father saying "Don't steal from my liquor cabinet," then he steals beer from a liquor store and stores it in the cabinet. It leaves you saying "Well what the fuck, man?"

@Prince of Ravens:

Esau is an atheist. I'm leaving right now, so I can't go in farther than that (something tells me you already know he's an atheist).

Pointless difficulty [of God's plan] = genocide (ie, why do it in the first place?)

Phoenix is twisting Esau's logic, not the other way around.

Genocide is in His nature, though? lol. Anything is in God's nature. He is "perfect." He can justify anything He wants.

Read the last two to three pages (can't remember exactly where the post was at).

Edited July 4, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Prince of Ravens]

Because I'm more philosophical (apparently that's a bad thing), I'll answer this.

Tell me though, why would God break one of His OWN commandments? Why would He contradict Himself like that?

First off, He made them for you to follow, not for Him. Second, God doesn't need to follow your laws. It's not breaking them if you're not bound by them.

For instance, the Legal drinking age in France is 14. It's 21 in the US. If a 16 year old French kid drinks wine in Paris, he's not going to prison in the US. Those laws don't apply to him.

It's more like your dad saying, you're not allowed to drink until you're 21, then having a beer. There's nothing wrong with that.

Pointless difficulty [of God's plan] = genocide (ie, why do it in the first place?)

I'm going to go check back to see where this was brought up. I'm not ignoring it though.

Phoenix is twisting Esau's logic, not the other way around.

That's not the way it seemed to me. I could be wrong though. It's happened before.

Anyway, I apologize for seeminly jumping into the middle of an argument without knowing what it was about. Because that's actually what I did. lol.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Prince of Ravens

[Phoenix]

The act itself is brutal. Whether it is or not is not the issue according to you. Tell me though, why would God break one of His OWN commandments? Why would He contradict Himself like that? It's like your father saying "Don't steal from my liquor cabinet," then he steals beer from a liquor store and stores it in the cabinet. It leaves you saying "Well what the fuck, man?"

One of the purposes of the ten commandments is to justify the ending of human life. They're being imposed on us partly so that the humans who don't follow God in the end, can be killed justly. See we were designed to be incapable of following the law to the letter, that way we have to rely on God to save us. If not for our inability to keep the law, we would deserve to live. I'm over simplifying this and I'm sorry but I'm in a hurry to get back to the RP.

The ten commandments only apply to human beings. They don't apply to animals, angels, or God himself.

Saying this doesn't really help with Esau's God is evil point, but I'm a little passed carrying now.

Phoenix is twisting Esau's logic, not the other way around.

Trust me on this, I've twisted nothing the guy's said, only told him why I disagree. He on the other hand insists that I'm wrong based on radical assumptions made up out of a few nitpicked words taken from quotes.