Opposing Views: Sick of Hearing Christians Claim "Religious Discrimination"

[Prince of Ravens]

Ok, found it.

Genocide. Ok. Erm... There was a few reasons he told the Israelites to clear them out of the 'Promised Land'.

1. It wasn't exactly Genocide. Per se. It was more like... pest control.

I know it sounds bad, but they (Caananites) weren't even supposed to be there in the first place. If you believe genocide happend there, you should understand that also. They were basically disobeying God by living there. War was God's way of telling them to move out.

2. Because He wanted the Israelites to try to fight.

This is a little backwards, so bear with me. It was more of a battle of faith. The walls of Jericho came down without a fight, but the very next battle was a disaster for the Israelites because they didn't do what God said. The entire war was more of a demonstration. Listen to God = Win. Don't listen = Fail.

Besides, as previously said, HE'S FREAKIN GOD! He does what He wants.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Prince of Ravens

[Esau of Isaac]

Growing pains were a metaphor for the hardships we face, not the God that allows them to happen. Stop twisting my words.

Growing pains was a random term that you threw in to show how bad life can be. Growing pains, by their nature, are a fact of life that simply don't think. That is why they are called growing pains.

God is not a growing pain, if he is a thinking being.

I thought the inaccuracies were obvious especially when I stated them numerous times.

Well for starters, original sin isn't something I preached or even mentioned before. You just made another grand leap of presumptuousness just like you always do.

Because you were talking about the evil nature of humanity. What else could you possibly be referring to?

Oh boo f*cking hoo. Someone comes along and mentions that humans don't have the right to live, and so they should be grateful and strive for greatness, and you turn it into an anti-human emo war. Not only that, but you're completely incapable of comprehending even basic meanings.

You heard it here folks. Not agreeing with the notion that all humans deserve to die and genocide is okay is emo.

If that's your goal, then you might want to stay clear of the bible in the first place because more than 90% of that book is up for debate.

Ahahaha, it's funny because if I take your interpretation of the Bible and follow what I said, I'll usually get pretty close to accepted canon.

If only we could find some whiny little girl that was also insistent on calling me a sick heartless bastard. Then you might actually make a point against me instead of just tossing on labels.

I don't understand. I think that whiny little girl is supposed to be me. Are you saying that I am actually making a point against you?

Awesome. Myself: 1; Phoenix: 0

Listen carefully. I do not twist. If anything I make a decent effort to untwist your bullsh*t with context addition. You've obviously had the wrong impression from the get go, so let me point something out to you so that you might begin to understand why your half assed name calling is off base to begin with.

You twist my statements like you're trying to make a churro out of them or something. I don't know, something that twists a lot.

Also, you don't make context addition. You make context complaints and never any additions.

I am not bound by any human moral code(what comes next is not a human moral code, that's my belief). I don't believe that murder is wrong because I don't want to be murdered. I believe it's wrong because it's in the ten commandments. I don't believe stealing is wrong because I don't want to get robbed. I believe it's wrong because it's in the ten commandments.

Are you saying that the ten commandments are not a human moral code?

In short, you're applying your own moral code, and I'm applying God's(because mine wasn't much different from yours and it never did me or anyone else much good).

Remember this^ because it's pretty damn important.

I'm still laughing because the ten commandments were just made by provincial old men. It's just as flawed as any other code.

I can't give you half of the bible in one post, man.

Even if I could, I'd have to find the best translations, and somehow keep you from twisting the sh*t out of them. That's not gonna happen.

Hahaha, half the Bible. More like one post that doesn't say anything about the Earth being his, and you ignoring the rest of the book for your worldview.

Not when they're being taken out of context and used as an anti God argument. Maybe if you could cut out the former I would listen to you, but by the time I've read even six words of your post I can already tell you and I are in two totally different versions of the same story. In my version God has underlying reasons for everything he does. In yours he just wants control of an ancient race of people and doesn't exist. I'm not even going to bother trying to correct your version since the bible acknowledges God's existence whereas you don't. Your version is headf*cked, mine isn't. There's no reason to even bother with yours.

See, here's the thing; my version of the Bible has nothing to do with my worldview, because I simply vest no belief in such a god (read: I think it's a crock of shit). Thus, it's easy for me, if I desire, to become acquainted with plain truths and accepted and overall established canon, because I'm not going to ignore it in favor of sustaining my own belief system, as provincial Christians (this is you) are wont to do.

Though I'm not sure you can be called a Christian. You've made some pretty wonky interpretations of the Bible that would ironically end up with you in pretty hot water if we were to hop you back several centuries ago.

BULLSH*T.

I know, I can barely believe it either. I'm still waiting for that debilitating brain aneurysm.

Because you have garbage retention.

"Hurr Durr wait read on stop cherrypicking my sentences."

You love to throw examples of what I'm talking about in my face don't you? My stance isn't hateful. You're just too simplistic to come up with anything else. I don't know who's a bigger offender in this area, you or Sean Hannity.

Probably Sean Hannity. That guy's a douchebag.

Anyways, your stance is pretty hateful. Lex Luthor would be pretty hard pressed to construct a religion that is not as downright hateful as yours. Or maybe Dr. Doom. Both of those guys hold pretty strong grudges, they could probably put together a pretty hateful belief system.

You say needless, but that's because you haven't been paying attention ... shocker.

Thousands of people murdered instead of God wiggling his super powers and making everything hunky dory.

I'm pretty sure that's like the definition of pointless right there.

You don't have to twist my words? GREAT!!! Then stop doing it.

That's the thing. I'm not. Maybe you're, like, reading your words after the fact and even you're not sure what you thought anymore. And then you decide to blame me because there's no way you could be that crazy, right?

By the way, can you explain just why God should just ride in and end all suffering? It's already written that he will, why does it have to fit into your schedule exactly? I mean ... who are you?

Well I have a nametag. I'm Esau of Isaac. See look, scroll up. It's to the left, above my avatar. In blue?

Also, it's rather silly for God to sit back rather than just using his abilities to fix it. There's that whole people suffering for thousands of years thing, but I don't expect you to really "get" that one, because you're probably thinking they all deserve to be drawn and quartered or something.

Your words^. Can you explain the difference between ability and will? Cause if you can't, that might explain some things that have been bugging me. You seem to think that your way is the best option. If it was, either it would have been handled that way, or it isn't the best option to begin with. We both have our obvious leanings here I already know.

I'm scratching my head right now. At first, I was pretty sure that it went like this:

Murdering innocent people < Not murdering innocent people.

Then Phoenix came here, and threw that all up in the air, telling me that this is the proper equation:

Murdering innocent people > Not murdering innocent people.

Because surely if innocent people being murdered wasn't the absolute best world that God could put together, then he wouldn't have made it. FUCK THAT GUY SUCKS AT PUTTING TOGETHER GOOD WORLDS.

Great plan, because the children of the slain won't one day find out what happened and seek revenge. That never happens. People don't get bitten in the ass like that. Surely. Those babes won't be discriminated against, or treated differently, or even abused by their parent conquering God followers will they? Surely they won't. People being forced to foster parent babies never goes wrong ... ever ... never ever.[/sarcasm]

We should stop them from ever feeling anger at their parents being slaughtered by slaughtering them too! Oh, and to stop them from being discriminated against, or treated differently, or abused! Just murder the little bastards!

Classic PMS.

I guess PMS stands for, like, "basic ability to feel human compassion".

I know that Terminators can't feel emotions, but could you at least try for this discussion?

If I quote the bible he'll whine and bitch about me quoting the bible. If I don't quote the bible he'll whine and bitch about a lack of evidence. What to do here ...

Translation:

"If I use my warped grasp of the Bible's contents, he's going to point out how stupid I look. If I just continue talking shit he'll point out how stupid I look. Fuck I'm in a bind."

Wrong. My point was that humans weren't meant to exist on a physical plain for good. Clinging to there existence was in parenthesis(as in a side note), and you obviously inserted that as the actual point. It wasn't. Here's an example of you twisting my words. This one's just a misdemeanor, but I thought I should point it out. If you'll take something that small and f*ck it up, then you will probably do it with more important things too.

Oh, then you would agree with me, since people don't exist on a physical plane for good in the Bible, and are judged following their deaths.

There is now, so deal with it.

#47 No, I think I will pass thank you.

Let me explain just why I can follow up a talk about how disgusting humanity is by saying that I would help others.

Human nature is sick, and entirely selfish(I would know, I'm human). I follow a moral code that demands I combat my own nature. The conflict is necessary. My striving to be overcome myself is the goal. I may not love people unselfishly, but I certainly won't let that stop me from trying to.

See, the thing here is that you are getting yourself confused with the rest of humanity. Everyone's not as sick and selfish as you are. I can't speak of how selfish you are. Maybe you hog the bed; maybe you double dip; maybe you are just a bad sharer.

However, I can say that you are fairly sick, and that I'm confused as to why your moral code doesn't include a commandment to murder people. Admittedly, though, I'm being presumptuous again, as you do have a colorful interpretation of the Bible. I remember you using the first two to make some pretty wonky conclusions in the past.

The way I was painting you earlier was this:

Esau has human nature, and thus he will only think selfishly in his attempts to whine and gripe about how wrong it is for humans to be killed by order of God. He's just using them to make a point. I doubt he actually cares about people he's never met. Even if he does, it's probably just obligatory since he brought them into the argument in the first place.

The way you were painting me earlier is this:

"That fucking Esau guy, always getting in the way. Sticking up for fucking humans, those guys suck. How dare he try to argue that all of them aren't deserving to be killed right now. How can he even think of saying anything about the good nature of people, they're all super evil in nature."

That^ was my picture. Read it again just in case.

Oh, that explains it. You had the fucking cap on. Right on, Van Der Zee.

Not depressing, realistic.

Your entire worldview is predicated on the misinterpretation of a book whose contents are wholly unproven and fairly crazy themselves. Since you basically threw the book in a blender and hit frappe, you're coming out with an even more inaccurate set of views relative to how the world really works.

Your interpretation of the world is about as realistic as Thundercats.

Oh I remember. Too bad you've got it backwards yet again.

My bad. Let me re-arrange that:

"I'm already aware of your erroneous interpretations of the good book, remember? I was just making examples. I know."

Alternatively:

"Remember, book good the of interpretations erroneous your of aware already I'm. Examples making just was I. Know I."

There's no prize at the end of this if that was what you were hoping for.

Finally something we can agree on!

Instead of just flat out stating this, why not prove it? Oh wait you can't, because your viewpoints are as subjective as mine. What you claim as nonsensical might not actually be nonsensical. We use two different versions of the same event remember?

Prove what? That you fail to respond appropriately to my arguments?

Right. Because you're automatically right based on your own interpretation. If that's refuted in the slightest, the other person is wrong. No debate, just mockery. You see this is where a lot of the anti-atheist mindset comes from.

This is part of what I mean. You keep talking about interpretations when it has nothing to do with it. I mean, yeah, you have your own interpretation of the Bible. The point is, though, that it's plainly wrong. Explicitly. In the words of the Bible.

I think I actually made a similar analogy the first time I tried and failed to pound this point in, but this is ultimately similar to a grade schooler trying to argue to their math teacher that 2 + 2 really does equal five. Ignoring fucking around with the base system being used that the kid doesn't know about, he's obviously a retard that can't add.

And I'm not saying you're a retard, Phoenix. I'm just saying you can't add.

My gun doesn't run out of bullets. I can continue this back and forth crap with you for as long as you want.

Okay. It gets too hot because you're machine gun-firing your crazy bullets out of it.

Good luck, Chuck. I was born for this.

Established Biblical Canan... ... ... did you just go there?

Anyway ... I don't ignore biblical facts, I only ignore christian doctrines and the interpretations of events that said doctrines are based on.

For example why would I pay any attention to an argument about Jesus Christ suffocating instead of bleeding out? He was stabbed. It's right in the book. What happens when you get stabbed in your side with a spear, do you suffocate or do you bleed out?

I don't know, why don't you tell me the next time you're the incarnation of the Son?

There's a time and a place for that sort of flashiness. I know what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

The Isrealites had God pulling miracles left and right, and he manifested huge calamity on that mountain to prove he was there, and they still spent most of their time bitching and griping. The only difference there might have been with the Canaanites is that they were already home, so the thoughtless rebellions would have taken place a bit sooner.

Of course. He's not omnipotent enough to sufficiently persuade them. He simply doesn't have the power. The potence in his omnipotence just isn't up to snuff.

Oh! Oh! Let's try this right now!

Ahem ...

"I WANT EVERY HUMAN BEING TO FOLLOW GOD(my version of God not other gods lol)."

I'll tell you what, if I am ever transported to a world of Phoenixes I'll be shouting this from the highest mountaintops.

If you keep twisting, you're going to break something.

Luckily, I won't have to kill anyone(trust me on this one).

Are you sure? Come on, you can't tell me with a straight face that God isn't at world's end going to order his people to start warming up their sword arms. Perhaps kill some women and children. Maybe get a little rape and pillage of prominent cities in. Ah, see, you're smiling. I knew you were joking the whole time.

So you believe in God then? Then how come you don't believe in all of Him?

No, I do not believe in God.

You mean pointless difficulties like... admitting to failure? That's pretty hard, I guess, but not pointless given the reward.

I mean pointless difficulties like depression, starvation, physical agony, sickness, destruction, and death. Pretty minor things, here. I mean, at least down the road God's...

...Well I honestly can't think of much that God's done that hasn't been relatively negative. I mean, yeah, there were all those wars that were fought in his name, but he specifically...I can't think of much after the whole creation thing. I can think of him rendering Adam and Eve with debilitation and probably thus being the biggest problem causer, but I haven't seen a lot of effort on his part to fix it up. Yeah, okay, there was Jesus, but --while Jesus was an awesome dude-- I think he could have done even better.

Yeah, Phoenix. He's not going to understand. I don't remember the address, but... "The words of the wise are folly to the fool." Or something like that.

That sounds like a dozen biblical verses.

Wait, you think murder's wrong, but genocide is alright? I haven't been paying much attention, but that just sounds wrong. It's BETTER to do something that's wrong MORE?

His sneaky dodge for this is that he doesn't find the murder of the citizens of Canaan to be murder, because God commanded it. After all, God didn't say thou shalt not kill, he said thou shalt not murder.

Or something. I was raised with "kill" in its place. Kids these days, and such.

As for the holy land issue. I don't think anything is holy unless God is present there. All that's left of the so called holy land is a religious mess in the middle east.

Even though God called it a holy land?

1. God would not tell me to jump off a bridge because God hates suicide and telling me to kill myself would go agianst His nature.

How do you know God hates suicide?

2. When was genocide justified by God?

You're kind of late to the party.

First off, He made them for you to follow, not for Him.

I'm going to start coughing up blood if I don't stop laughing soon.

Second, God doesn't need to follow your laws. It's not breaking them if you're not bound by them.

For instance, the Legal drinking age in France is 14. It's 21 in the US. If a 16 year old French kid drinks wine in Paris, he's not going to prison in the US. Those laws don't apply to him.

Yeah MGS. Remember that in Heaven, there's no law against killing minors.

You have to keep up with all this confusing legalese.

It's more like your dad saying, you're not allowed to drink until you're 21, then having a beer. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah. "Son, You're not allowed to kill people until I give the go-ahead (sets people on fire)". "BUT DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

Ok, found it.

Genocide. Ok. Erm... There was a few reasons he told the Israelites to clear them out of the 'Promised Land'.

1. It wasn't exactly Genocide. Per se. It was more like... pest control.

I know it sounds bad, but they (Caananites) weren't even supposed to be there in the first place. If you believe genocide happend there, you should understand that also. They were basically disobeying God by living there. War was God's way of telling them to move out.

God couldn't just...move them? He couldn't just make the same exact landscape elsewhere and plop them on it?

2. Because He wanted the Israelites to try to fight.

This is a little backwards, so bear with me. It was more of a battle of faith. The walls of Jericho came down without a fight, but the very next battle was a disaster for the Israelites because they didn't do what God said. The entire war was more of a demonstration. Listen to God = Win. Don't listen = Fail.

This is more often the more spoken interpretation of events. I have always found it cruel to use other peoples' suffering to justify a test of faith in people.

Besides, as previously said, HE'S FREAKIN GOD! He does what He wants.

He wants to slaughter?

[Prince of Ravens]

I mean pointless difficulties like depression, starvation, physical agony, sickness, destruction, and death. Pretty minor things, here. I mean, at least down the road God's...

...Well I honestly can't think of much that God's done that hasn't been relatively negative. I mean, yeah, there were all those wars that were fought in his name, but he specifically...I can't think of much after the whole creation thing. I can think of him rendering Adam and Eve with debilitation and probably thus being the biggest problem causer, but I haven't seen a lot of effort on his part to fix it up. Yeah, okay, there was Jesus, but --while Jesus was an awesome dude-- I think he could have done even better.

God made cancer as a punishment for sin in general. Adam and Eve's sin, that you inherited. Bring it up with them, don't blame God.

Cancer was a punishment. He's not going to get rid of it if you don't learn the consequences for sin.

So... you believe in Jesus... but you don't believe in God...? I can't argue the stuff He did unless you actually acknowledge His existance, and since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic...

How do you know God hates suicide?

He said so in the Bible. Simple.

You're kind of late to the party.

Yeah, I realized...

I'm going to start coughing up blood if I don't stop laughing soon.

I know. It's funny that you think that God has to do what you say. That's basically saying that you're better than God, making you god, which breaks Command #1.

Yeah MGS. Remember that in Heaven, there's no law against killing minors.

You have to keep up with all this confusing legalese.

There are no laws in heaven. Even if there were, you wouldn't want to break them while you were there. You just wouldn't.

Yeah. "Son, You're not allowed to kill people until I give the go-ahead (sets people on fire)". "BUT DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD".

I actually laughed at this one. Once again, it's not wrong for God to kill people if he wants to.

God couldn't just...move them? He couldn't just make the same exact landscape elsewhere and plop them on it?

He could've, I suppose. Apparently He didn't want to.

This is more often the more spoken interpretation of events. I have always found it cruel to use other peoples' suffering to justify a test of faith in people.

Well you're not God. It doesn't matter what you think He should have done.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Wait guys, revelation.

So, God doesn't have to follow the rules, because he's the big boss, the head honcho.

Therefore, Richard Nixon is God.

[Phoenix Wright]

God made cancer as a punishment for sin in general. Adam and Eve's sin, that you inherited. Bring it up with them, don't blame God.

Cancer was a punishment. He's not going to get rid of it if you don't learn the consequences for sin.

So... you believe in Jesus... but you don't believe in God...? I can't argue the stuff He did unless you actually acknowledge His existance, and since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic...

So, God made one of the more painful and depressing ways to die? Why not just put a magic bullet into someone's head? Let them go painlessly. I see no need for torture.

Also, what type of sins can a tree commit? Why would He allow to give trees enormous tumors? What the fuck did trees do to God?

There are no laws in heaven. Even if there were, you wouldn't want to break them while you were there. You just wouldn't.

There are laws in Heaven. You think an angel can do whatever the fuck it wants? No. It's a servant to God for all eternity.

I actually laughed at this one. Once again, it's not wrong for God to kill people if he wants to.

So He'll kill instead of save? Doesn't sound very godlike to me...

He could've, I suppose. Apparently He didn't want to.

Because genocide is more fun to look at!

Well you're not God. It doesn't matter what you think He should have done.

Why would He torture to test faith? Why doesn't He just slap people across the face SUPER hard until they go "All right I get it!" Or, why doesn't He just zap faith into people?

[Prince of Ravens]

So, God made one of the more painful and depressing ways to die? Why not just put a magic bullet into someone's head? Let them go painlessly. I see no need for torture.

What is evil without good? What do you compare to? How great could heaven seem if there was no pain and death here?

Also, what type of sins can a tree commit? Why would He allow to give trees enormous tumors? What the fuck did trees do to God?

Nothing. That was Adam's fault.

There are laws in Heaven. You think an angel can do whatever the fuck it wants? No. It's a servant to God for all eternity.

Did you know that Satan is an angel? He disobeyed God, so He threw him out of heaven.

So He'll kill instead of save? Doesn't sound very godlike to me...

Well God isn't here to please you.

Because genocide is more fun to look at!

God isn't here to please you.

Why would He torture to test faith? Why doesn't He just slap people across the face SUPER hard until they go "All right I get it!" Or, why doesn't He just zap faith into people?

He's constantly slapping people in the face. They just don't realize it.

Why not zap faith into people? A gift that's demanded is no gift. God doesn't need you. Faith is by His grace, not yours.

[Phoenix Wright]

What is evil without good? What do you compare to? How great could heaven seem if there was no pain and death here?

Why did God create evil? What's the point of us at all (I knew this would come up sooner or later, unfortunately)? Are we toys in His destructive attitude?

Nothing. That was Adam's fault.

Then it is not only punishment for sin. Trees do not commit sin (please do not try to argue they do).

Did you know that Satan is an angel? He disobeyed God, so He threw him out of heaven.

Did you know that you proved my point?

Here's the one and only law of Heaven (roughly the only law, who knows if there are more): Don't disobey God.

Well God isn't here to please you.

God isn't here to please you.

These are your answers? You're much better off just being honest and telling me "I don't know." I say "God would rather kill relentlessly" and you reply with He doesn't need to please me? I don't give a fuck if He pleases me, He's SUPPOSED to be the God He "promised" to be right in your fucking Bible.

He's constantly slapping people in the face. They just don't realize it.

I've never been slapped in the face [by God].

Why not zap faith into people? A gift that's demanded is no gift. God doesn't need you. Faith is by His grace, not yours.

I am perfect. Know why? Because no matter what, I was created from something that is perfect. A being of whom is perfect cannot create anything with flaws, otherwise, He would not be perfect.

Because I am perfect, do I particularly need God? Why or why not?

Note: Satan cannot taint perfection.

Edited July 5, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Rewjeo]

Regarding the "Thou shalt not murder" versus "Thou shalt not kill" thing, the Bible wasn't written in English originally. So unless someone has a copy of the original Bible and can read it, you can't really say that.

[Prince of Ravens]

Why did God create evil? What's the point of us at all (I knew this would come up sooner or later, unfortunately)? Are we toys in His destructive attitude?

Not destructive. Selfish. God does everything for His glory. You're just... well... a mere human to Him.

Then it is not only punishment for sin. Trees do not commit sin (please do not try to argue they do).

I don't think I understand this. Adam and Eve brought evil to physical creation. Evil being absence of God. It was always there, because there's always a shadow in sunlight, but they made it more real. The consequence to this was that sickness, weeds, death, etc. came into being. It's not the tree's fault it got sick, it's yours, really.

Here's the one and only law of Heaven (roughly the only law, who knows if there are more): Don't disobey God.

Hmmm... Maybe. I don't think I made your point though. They aren't servants of God forever. They can break the law.

These are your answers? You're much better off just being honest and telling me "I don't know." I say "God would rather kill relentlessly" and you reply with He doesn't need to please me? I don't give a fuck if He pleases me, He's SUPPOSED to be the God He "promised" to be right in your fucking Bible

He kills when He needs/wants people dead/gone. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter that you don't understand. It might have nothing to do with you. God doesn't care for your opinion on the matter.

I've never been slapped in the face [by God].

Maybe. I doubt it. Again, you rarely realize it. God doesn't speak with tornados, lightning storms, and pillars of fire anymore.

I am perfect. Know why? Because no matter what, I was created from something that is perfect. A being of whom is perfect cannot create anything with flaws, otherwise, He would not be perfect.

Because I am perfect, do I particularly need God? Why or why not?

First off, a perfect Being could make flawed and flawless things. I'm not going to argue how flawless He made things. Point is they're not flawless now.

I'm sure you've heard the 10 Commandments before. How many have you broken? I've broken a few, namely "Honor thy Mother and Father", and "Thou shall not covet". Actually, I'm pretty sure I've broken all of them. Thus I'm not perfect because I didn't follow them. It's not God's fault. It's mine.

Now, I don't need God. Seriously, I don't. I sure as all Hell want Him, otherwise, I'm damned before Him during judgement. Un-damnation isn't a needing, nor is it deserved. The alternative is deserved.

[Phoenix Wright]

Not destructive. Selfish. God does everything for His glory. You're just... well... a mere human to Him.

A selfish God is not a perfect God. Who the hell does God want to glorify Himself for anyway? Why does He feel the need to have so much self-satisfaction?

I don't think I understand this. Adam and Eve brought evil to physical creation. Evil being absence of God. It was always there, because there's always a shadow in sunlight, but they made it more real. The consequence to this was that sickness, weeds, death, etc. came into being. It's not the tree's fault it got sick, it's yours, really.

Er...what? Adam and Eve created "evil," not God?

Hmmm... Maybe. I don't think I made your point though. They aren't servants of God forever. They can break the law.

Angels aren't servants forever? Yes they are. Do you even know what you're trying to preach here? Since when can angels break God's Law?

He kills when He needs/wants people dead/gone. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter that you don't understand. It might have nothing to do with you. God doesn't care for your opinion on the matter.

Again, just say "I don't know why." Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that for an omnibenevolent being, murder/killing should be the LAST thing He would do? I DON'T CARE if God doesn't care for my opinion (just another example of God being painted as a tyrant). I DON'T CARE if it has nothing to do with me. God doesn't ever need anything, so whatever He wants is what happens. He WANTS millions of people to die every year from starvation and suffering, while at the same time He WANTS the BP president to go on a fucking yacht race while we have the biggest oil spill ever.

First off, a perfect Being could make flawed and flawless things. I'm not going to argue how flawless He made things. Point is they're not flawless now.

I'm sure you've heard the 10 Commandments before. How many have you broken? I've broken a few, namely "Honor thy Mother and Father", and "Thou shall not covet". Actually, I'm pretty sure I've broken all of them. Thus I'm not perfect because I didn't follow them. It's not God's fault. It's mine.

Now, I don't need God. Seriously, I don't. I sure as all Hell want Him, otherwise, I'm damned before Him during judgement. Un-damnation isn't a needing, nor is it deserved. The alternative is deserved.

No, a PERFECT being cannot. If I am perfect, and I have a baby that is not perfect, then I am not perfect. I am only a liar. I cannot create a flawed being.

It is God's fault. He knew when and where you commit such crimes, yet He did not try to stop you, even though it would only bring you farther from Him. If I can stop you from going online, but I don't, then it is MY fault you go online.

Like, if my mom said to protect my younger brother, and I have the power to do so, yet I don't protect him, then it is my fault if something happens. My mom will blame me, because I did not do everything in my power to help something/someone that I love. He may have been the one to provoke a fight and lose teeth because of it, but because I did not stop him (and I could have, assuming I have the power to do so), it is my fault that he was hurt.

Lol, you're saying you don't NEED GOD for salvation? He's the only reason you can achieve salvation. "Un-damnation" is a need. It is a necessity for you to get to Heaven. If you are damned, you don't get inside those Pearly Gates. You NEED to be saved by God. You need God.

Edited July 5, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Janissary]

In response to Raven's...whatever it was.

1. God is not selfish. The Bible states that selfishness is a sin, and that God is perfect, and that perfection is not sinning. Therefore, if you hold a view consistant with the Bible, God is not selfish.

2. Evil is not the absence of God. Evil is the opposite of God. Again, the Bible espouses the view that God is present everywhere. Therefore, if you believe the Bible as you claim too, evil can not be the absence of God.

3. Are you saying Angels aren't servants of God forever? Where do you get that information? Are you basing that on the reality of demons? If so, I challenge you to provide proof that Angels have a daily or even yearly or any interval of time in which they can rechoose their allegiances to God or Satan? As far as I have ever seen and read, it seems Angels were granted one chance to choose - the initial fall of Satan - and recieve no other chance.

4. You make it sounds like God kills people just like a teenage girl breaks up with boyfriends when she gets on her period, geez. This is why I believe in the foreknowledge and foreplanning of God...

5. You can't really prove that. Is it likely he uses those things as much as he used to? No. But even Luther was pushed into a monastery by a Thunderstorm. But you probably don't think that was God.

6. I think what you mean is this:

God created mankind in perfection and granted him free moral agenecy to choose good or evil. Man chose evil. This choice ruined man, and mutated him. He was no longer perfect, but imperfect. Man's imperfection is now passed on from generation to generation via procreation. Therefore, God did not make imperfection.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Janissary

[Phoenix Wright]

6. I think what you mean is this:

God created mankind in perfection and granted him free moral agenecy to choose good or evil. Man chose evil. This choice ruined man, and mutated him. He was no longer perfect, but imperfect. Man's imperfection is now passed on from generation to generation via procreation. Therefore, God did not make imperfection.

And to that I argue that you cannot choose between perfection and imperfection. Whether we made a "mistake" or not doesn't matter. Perfect beings cannot make themselves imperfect, because that doesn't make any sense (ie, if they had the power to make themselves imperfect, they weren't perfect to begin with). If we were born perfect, we will always be perfect.

Which means there can only three basic answers:

1. God isn't perfect.

2. God doesn't exist.

3. God didn't create us, Satan did.

Note: That concept practically only works with the idea of perfection (because of the definition of perfection). I can't say at first I was a murderer, but then I wasn't, so in actuality I was never a murderer in the first place. It just doesn't make any sense, unless you're dealing with the concept of perfection.

Edited July 5, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Janissary]

I'd say that's reasonable logic. But then, what is perfection?

[Phoenix Wright]

Who knows for sure? Perfection can be just as subjective as the concepts of good and evil, I suppose.

Its definition is simple enough, but its practice is not. A mistake to you may not be a mistake to me, et cetera.

Edited July 5, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Janissary]

Well at least you said that and not a concrete definition

You'll have to explain to me why you don't feel that there is an objective definition as to perfection though. You may feel that I am arguing from a ludicrous position (Why would I ever think that a Sky Fairy is the defition of perfection?), but at least I have a position. Your presenting that you don't know, but you know my position is wrong.

That doesn't really convince me, and I even grant that it is logical not to believe in the Christian God (I do, however, find it logical to believe in a God).

[Prince of Ravens]

A selfish God is not a perfect God. Who the hell does God want to glorify Himself for anyway? Why does He feel the need to have so much self-satisfaction?

God wants glory for Himself because HE'S FREAKING GOD. How many times do I have to say that?

Er...what? Adam and Eve created "evil," not God?

Well, God defined evil by defining good. Adam and Eve just... well, were the first physical creations to commit it.

Angels aren't servants forever? Yes they are. Do you even know what you're trying to preach here? Since when can angels break God's Law?

If angels couldn't defy God, then Satan wouldn't be evil. Do you think Satan is evil because God told him to be? Ha!

Again, just say "I don't know why." Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that for an omnibenevolent being, murder/killing should be the LAST thing He would do? I DON'T CARE if God doesn't care for my opinion (just another example of God being painted as a tyrant). I DON'T CARE if it has nothing to do with me. God doesn't ever need anything, so whatever He wants is what happens. He WANTS millions of people to die every year from starvation and suffering, while at the same time He WANTS the BP president to go on a fucking yacht race while we have the biggest oil spill ever.

God is setting the stage for the 'End of Times'. God doesn't care for your opinion because, a. He's probably wiser than you; b. because He considers you evil; c, because He knows more about the situation than you do.

No, a PERFECT being cannot. If I am perfect, and I have a baby that is not perfect, then I am not perfect. I am only a liar. I cannot create a flawed being.

You were originally perfect. You made yourself flawed. You were perfect, but not immune to destruction. A flawless diamond can be broken, corrupted. That doesn't mean it wasn't really perfect.

It is God's fault. He knew when and where you commit such crimes, yet He did not try to stop you, even though it would only bring you farther from Him. If I can stop you from going online, but I don't, then it is MY fault you go online.

If he just stopped you, then you don't learn much because you have no consequences for your actions. He gave you the information to know not to commit crimes, so he doesn't need to slap your wrist when you decide to steal something.

It's like a toddler with a fork and a light socket. If you tell the kid not to plug the fork in, he's going to want to disobey you. It's how it works. If you keep stopping him, he's going to keep trying. If you let him, after telling him that there would be consequences and not encouraging him, then he gets shocked, and never does it again.

Lol, you're saying you don't NEED GOD for salvation? He's the only reason you can achieve salvation. "Un-damnation" is a need. It is a necessity for you to get to Heaven. If you are damned, you don't get inside those Pearly Gates. You NEED to be saved by God. You need God.

That's not what I'm saying. I don't need to be saved given the definition of need. I sure want to. I need to me saved if I want to see the 'Pearly Gates', but I don't need to see them. I want to. See the difference? Thus I need God, if only to get what I want. Sort of.

Ironically, it seems like you're arguing my side...

1. God is not selfish. The Bible states that selfishness is a sin, and that God is perfect, and that perfection is not sinning. Therefore, if you hold a view consistant with the Bible, God is not selfish.

"Thou shalt not have no other gods before me, for the LORD thy God is a jealous God." God is selfish. He's allowed to be.

2. Evil is not the absence of God. Evil is the opposite of God. Again, the Bible espouses the view that God is present everywhere. Therefore, if you believe the Bible as you claim too, evil can not be the absence of God.

Not absence of God then. Absence of Godliness is more precise.

3. Are you saying Angels aren't servants of God forever? Where do you get that information? Are you basing that on the reality of demons? If so, I challenge you to provide proof that Angels have a daily or even yearly or any interval of time in which they can rechoose their allegiances to God or Satan? As far as I have ever seen and read, it seems Angels were granted one chance to choose - the initial fall of Satan - and recieve no other chance.

Angels start off as servants of God until they disobey. Then they're servants of Satan. For clarification, I agree with your last sentence, and it matches up with what I was trying to say.

4. You make it sounds like God kills people just like a teenage girl breaks up with boyfriends when she gets on her period, geez. This is why I believe in the foreknowledge and foreplanning of God...

I don't mean to make it seem like that... I mean, He's God, so... Basically, stuff seems to abruptly change when things have been off track for a while, then everything goes 'back on track'.

5. You can't really prove that. Is it likely he uses those things as much as he used to? No. But even Luther was pushed into a monastery by a Thunderstorm. But you probably don't think that was God.

What I mean is, like before the Exodus, God appeared as fire. When Moses got the 10 Commandmens, God appeared as a lightning cloud. When God spoke to Job, it was out of a tornado. Nowdays, with the Holy Spirit active, He speaks through people.

God created mankind in perfection and granted him free moral agenecy to choose good or evil. Man chose evil. This choice ruined man, and mutated him. He was no longer perfect, but imperfect. Man's imperfection is now passed on from generation to generation via procreation. Therefore, God did not make imperfection.

Building on that, God defined imperfection by defining perfection.

If you have the option to stop being perfect, then you had to be perfect before you made that decision. The major problem is whether or not it's better (thus more perfect) to have free will, than the opposite. Both have their own quirks. For the former, your life is your own. For the latter, you can't do anything wrong. For the former, you can find meaning in life. For the latter, life is meaningless. I believe in the former because I can make my own decisions. They may be influenced by my experiences or 'divine intervention' in some way, but they are my own. God gave me my experiences to prod me to make the decisions He wants me to make, thus it could be said that I'm doing what God wants, but I've done things on my own accord. I'm also not saying that everything I do is what God wants, but whatever I choose, it will always fit into God's plan. Some things are more preferable to God for the situation.

[Esau of Isaac]

God made cancer as a punishment for sin in general. Adam and Eve's sin, that you inherited. Bring it up with them, don't blame God.

Cancer was a punishment. He's not going to get rid of it if you don't learn the consequences for sin.

It was punishment for Adam and Eve gaining knowledge of Good and Evil. Those sinful little bastards getting smart and stuff.

So... you believe in Jesus... but you don't believe in God...? I can't argue the stuff He did unless you actually acknowledge His existance, and since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic...

I believe Jesus existed. There were many individuals touting themselves as messianic figures around the time of his life. I certainly don't think he possesses any divine qualities.

He said so in the Bible. Simple.

How do you know the Bible is God's word?

I know. It's funny that you think that God has to do what you say. That's basically saying that you're better than God, making you god, which breaks Command #1.

Yeah, if I had the same abilities he did I would be way better at being an omnibenevolent being. I'd for one stop that whole murdering of cultures thing, at the very least in my followers.

There are no laws in heaven. Even if there were, you wouldn't want to break them while you were there. You just wouldn't.

So in heaven it's alright to rape babies? No laws against that?

I actually laughed at this one. Once again, it's not wrong for God to kill people if he wants to.

This kind of proves my point; God is simply not possibly evil in your eyes. There is no situation wherein you can construct for me a situation where you would agree with me that God can be evil, because you believe that God is unfailingly good regardless of evidence otherwise.

He could've, I suppose. Apparently He didn't want to.

Nope. He would rather have them all murdered than bother to flick his almighty fingers and make everything okay.

Well you're not God. It doesn't matter what you think He should have done.

What if I said I was God?

Regarding the "Thou shalt not murder" versus "Thou shalt not kill" thing, the Bible wasn't written in English originally. So unless someone has a copy of the original Bible and can read it, you can't really say that.

Hahaha you can't claim that God exists anymore because you don't have an original Bible and the ability to read it.

1. God is not selfish. The Bible states that selfishness is a sin, and that God is perfect, and that perfection is not sinning. Therefore, if you hold a view consistant with the Bible, God is not selfish.

God did state at one point in the Bible that he is selfish. I think there were actually multiple points.

BUT I CAN'T THINK OF THE VERSE IT WAS IN.

You'll have to explain to me why you don't feel that there is an objective definition as to perfection though.

How could there be an objective definition of perfection? Perfection is regarded as the absolute absence of negative qualities. Negative qualities are ultimately arbitrarily designated. Is a red car more perfect than a blue one otherwise exactly the same? Is hot better than cold? Down better than up?

[Phoenix Wright]

God wants glory for Himself because HE'S FREAKING GOD. How many times do I have to say that?

I DO NOT CARE. You're an asshole if you're the king of the universe and all you want to do is rub it in people's faces with the use of fucking genocide.

Well, God defined evil by defining good. Adam and Eve just... well, were the first physical creations to commit it.

That doesn't make any sense. Satan is supposedly the definition of evil. The PHYSICAL creation of evil. In my opinion, Adam and Eve really only represent how tempting it is to be "evil." It also represents how stupid people are. Who disobeys the Almighty? The fucking King of kings? The Alpha and the Omega? Did God give them down syndrome?

I hope you're noticing I'm just having fun with you now.

If angels couldn't defy God, then Satan wouldn't be evil. Do you think Satan is evil because God told him to be? Ha!

He created Lucifer knowing DAMN FUCKING WELL what he'd do. He DID tell Lucifer to revolt. Christians DO need an excuse for the creation of evil, don't they?

God is setting the stage for the 'End of Times'. God doesn't care for your opinion because, a. He's probably wiser than you; b. because He considers you evil; c, because He knows more about the situation than you do.

GIVE ME WHAT I WANT NOW. PLEASE TELL ME YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW. I'M GETTING ANNOYED.

Is there a point to allow more children to suffer as He's "setting the stage." Why not just make EVERYONE suffer. Why not just give EVERYONE a happy life before they get judged?

What type of fucking Christian are you anyway? God doesn't consider man evil. You said it yourself: "people are evil. God hates evil." Does God hate us?

You were originally perfect. You made yourself flawed. You were perfect, but not immune to destruction. A flawless diamond can be broken, corrupted. That doesn't mean it wasn't really perfect.

Dude, check like two posts before this. I don't feel like saying it again. I really don't.

If he just stopped you, then you don't learn much because you have no consequences for your actions. He gave you the information to know not to commit crimes, so he doesn't need to slap your wrist when you decide to steal something.

It's like a toddler with a fork and a light socket. If you tell the kid not to plug the fork in, he's going to want to disobey you. It's how it works. If you keep stopping him, he's going to keep trying. If you let him, after telling him that there would be consequences and not encouraging him, then he gets shocked, and never does it again.

Oh my GOD. That's irrelevant. This isn't about a life fucking lesson. What type of lesson does genocide teach anyway? That it's SUPER COOL to be on the side that is doing the barbaric murdering? No. This isn't about keeping your kid away from electricity (never mind your terrible analogy), this is about keeping life "sacred." "Thou shalt not murder." One of your Ten Commandments. God could have stopped it. God SHOULD have stopped it. You don't use human lives like toilet paper to teach a lesson. Ever.

That's not what I'm saying. I don't need to be saved given the definition of need. I sure want to. I need to me saved if I want to see the 'Pearly Gates', but I don't need to see them. I want to. See the difference? Thus I need God, if only to get what I want. Sort of.

Ironically, it seems like you're arguing my side...

I'm actually not an atheist. I'm just tired of bullshit answers such as yours trying to define God however YOU wish to define Him. Nothing I said conflicts with my faith at all. I care about human life dearly, and if it means disagreeing with how YOU fucking interpret God then I will argue with you till the end of time.

You do NEED to be saved. It is God's command that you do EVERYTHING you can to be saved. You don't just want it, you NEED it. If you lack faith, you don't need anything.

EDIT: Just so you know, my idea of perfection is different from yours. My idea is kinda...stupid. God is perfect in the sense that man cannot define. He is other worldly. He may only seem imperfect when we try to define His perfection. He is of the supernatural. Something that we humans cannot fathom in our own minds. Yeah, kinda confusing and a little dumb, I know. To my arguments throughout this topic: Like I said, He is imperfect with our definitions.

Man, it feels like my IQ went down trying to explain that shit...:(.

"Thou shalt not have no other gods before me, for the LORD thy God is a jealous God." God is selfish. He's allowed to be.

Then He is not perfect if He is jealous.

If you have the option to stop being perfect, then you had to be perfect before you made that decision. The major problem is whether or not it's better (thus more perfect) to have free will, than the opposite. Both have their own quirks. For the former, your life is your own. For the latter, you can't do anything wrong. For the former, you can find meaning in life. For the latter, life is meaningless. I believe in the former because I can make my own decisions. They may be influenced by my experiences or 'divine intervention' in some way, but they are my own. God gave me my experiences to prod me to make the decisions He wants me to make, thus it could be said that I'm doing what God wants, but I've done things on my own accord. I'm also not saying that everything I do is what God wants, but whatever I choose, it will always fit into God's plan. Some things are more preferable to God for the situation.

You're just not getting it. The argument is that He was not perfect in the first place, not that one has the decision to be perfect or not. Edited July 6, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Prince of Ravens]

Your debate over wether or not God is perfect comes from the fact that we, as humans, aren't perfect. We aren't perfect because we made ourselves imperfect. We did that by disobeying God. We were able to do that, not because we're imperfect, but because we had free will. In fact, our current imperfections stand only to make God more perfect.

[Crystal Shards]

In other news, atheists really hate being discriminated against. I don't like the use of "everyone gets a turn." I think it's an ignorant line of thought.

[Phoenix Wright]

Your debate over wether or not God is perfect comes from the fact that we, as humans, aren't perfect. We aren't perfect because we made ourselves imperfect. We did that by disobeying God. We were able to do that, not because we're imperfect, but because we had free will. In fact, our current imperfections stand only to make God more perfect.

A perfect being does not and cannot make themself imperfect. No matter what. I can call myself perfect then kill millions of people and still be perfect (I'm describing myself in your definitions of God). If we can make ourselves imperfect by wrongdoings then so can God.

@Crystal Shards: I don't think anyone enjoys being discriminated against.

[Crystal Shards]

@Crystal Shards: I don't think anyone enjoys being discriminated against.

Note the topic title. Now look at what people are posting about. Then read my post again.

I think then you'll be able to see that my point is this is really off-topic now.

[Phoenix Wright]

Note the topic title. Now look at what people are posting about. Then read my post again.

I think then you'll be able to see that my point is this is really off-topic now.

I know what the topic is about, but we can't really discuss anything about it anymore. I suppose one could argue that Christians never ever ever discriminate, but then they'd just be wrong. Any sane person believes that no one should be discriminated against.

Any type of discrimination is ignorant. Religion (or lack of) is probably the dumbest reason to discriminate against someone (for more reasons than just what your holy book may teach you). Disliking someone because they're stupid is different from hating people because they don't believe in God.

I'm sick of them too.

Edited July 6, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Prince of Ravens]

A perfect being does not and cannot make themself imperfect. No matter what.

Our imperfection is not a proof for God's imperfection. It just shows how more perfect He is than us. If God made us as perfect as Him, then we might as well be gods.

I can call myself perfect then kill millions of people and still be perfect (I'm describing myself in your definitions of God). If we can make ourselves imperfect by wrongdoings then so can God.

Except God doesn't have any laws to follow, so he can't do any wrongdoings. You can though, because of the laws God gave you to follow. No, it's not fair. Did I ever say God was fair? Do you want God to be fair? By His rules, if he was fair, you and I would be dead right now.

This argument is really off topic. Call/talk to a pastor if you want, but this isn't the place.

On topic.

What the author of the article implied is that he wasn't hired because 'somehow', his possible employer found out he was an atheist. I find this unlikely. For one, Christians don't have voodoo access to God's Google. All employers, however have internet access to search engines, so they can run a search for a possible employee's name and see what comes up. Employers can hire people based on personality. If the Hire-ee can potentially case strife in the workplace because of his distruptive atitude, then the Hire-er doesn't need to hire that person. This seems like the likely scenario. The article writer posted something questionable on Facebook, or he was fired from a job for some reason or whatever. I doubt it was because he was an atheist.

For two, and I doubt anyone here would really care to believe this, but some Christians take hiring an Atheist as a ministry. For a Christian not hiring an Atheist based on religous discrimination goes agaisnt Christian religion, and thus, is a strange thing to do. Not that I doubt that there are idiot Christians (one should never underestimate stupidity), but I find the former reason more likely.

Another possibility, that I find somewhat possible, is that the writer is lying to take a stab at Christians. It's happened before. I won't entertain this, if only to give him the benefit of the doubt

As a Christian, if I find that I'm discriminated against because of my beliefs, I'll just move on. Apparently, I'm not supposed to work there. I'll be a little peeved that I wasted my time with an interview, but I won't go writing an article online to whine about the unfairness of the world or atheists.

[Esau of Isaac]

Your debate over wether or not God is perfect comes from the fact that we, as humans, aren't perfect. We aren't perfect because we made ourselves imperfect. We did that by disobeying God. We were able to do that, not because we're imperfect, but because we had free will. In fact, our current imperfections stand only to make God more perfect.

Your first line of logic is impossible. An imperfect being cannot impart upon itself imperfection unless you were to consider the action of doing so to be in line with that of a perfect being (which would be pretty dumb). If humanity disobeyed God whilst being perfect, then disobeying God was a perfect action.

Our imperfection is not a proof for God's imperfection. It just shows how more perfect He is than us. If God made us as perfect as Him, then we might as well be gods.

You do not understand the concept of perfection; you are either perfect, or you are not. There are no powerlevels of perfection. If humanity were perfect, we could not have become perfect now without outside intervention.

Except God doesn't have any laws to follow, so he can't do any wrongdoings. You can though, because of the laws God gave you to follow. No, it's not fair. Did I ever say God was fair? Do you want God to be fair? By His rules, if he was fair, you and I would be dead right now.

What if there is a god above your God that dictates rules he has to follow, but simply does not enforce them? Would your God be considered a wrongdoer then?