Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Don Draper]

His strength simply isn't high enough to go around with a Dragonslayer. 34 Effective Might doesn't cut it against 47 HP/16 Def, and he's 2RKO'd back. You could say he should get a +3 Might forge, but then we're giving him

1) A Master Seal

2) A Speedwings

3) A Forge

All this to perform worse then any other trained unit we have at this point. He's simply not worth the effort.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Rewjeo]

1) Who cares? I had two extra Master Seals at that point and you can grab another one in a couple chapters.

2) No, a shard if a speedwings is too much.

3) Uh, other people can use it, too.

And it's not like he's top tier or anything, obviously.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Slize

[grandjackal]

His strength simply isn't high enough to go around with a Dragonslayer. 34 Effective Might doesn't cut it against 47 HP/16 Def, and he's 2RKO'd back. You could say he should get a +3 Might forge, but then we're giving him

1) A Master Seal

2) A Speedwings

3) A Forge

All this to perform worse then any other trained unit we have at this point. He's simply not worth the effort.

You seem to be confusing "too much effort" with being "too expensive". Units like Cecile are too much effort.

Raiden in comparison is actually effortless, the problem here is just that he needs a speedwing (Since I can hardly imagine people not needing a forge and a seal to ORKO dragons. You need 24 AS, you can't get that without promotion).

But hey, if we're trule that desperate to not have expensive forges, the Leo and Taurus shards allow him to turn that +3 might forge into a +2, cutting the price by 1800 gold.

Again, this is showing that Raiden is expensive, but he can be effective. Unless you can show me how on average, people before him are capable of doing the same without a forge or a wing...Which point, I would think your name is either Catria or Paula.

[Don Draper]

You seem to be confusing "too much effort" with being "too expensive". Units like Cecile are too much effort.

Raiden in comparison is actually effortless, the problem here is just that he needs a speedwing (Since I can hardly imagine people not needing a forge and a seal to ORKO dragons. You need 24 AS, you can't get that without promotion).

But hey, if we're trule that desperate to not have expensive forges, the Leo and Taurus shards allow him to turn that +3 might forge into a +2, cutting the price by 1800 gold.

Again, this is showing that Raiden is expensive, but he can be effective. Unless you can show me how on average, people before him are capable of doing the same without a forge or a wing...Which point, I would think your name is either Catria or Paula.

Paperblade's playthrough has everyone on the team effectively handling Ice Dragons. Luke in particular is ORKOing them without a forge.

Raiden would just be a liability in this situation. Mid would be the absolute highest I could ever see him, and even that may be pushing it.

[Rewjeo]

If no one is having problems, then why do we care if he needs stuff? Enemies just get easier after 14, anyways.

[Don Draper]

If no one is having problems, then why do we care if he needs stuff? Enemies just get easier after 14, anyways.

Please come back when you've at least played Lunatic mode. Paperblade has said that Paladins in Chapter 15 have more attack then dragons but have 10 move.

Also, the argument "If no one is having problems, then why do we care if he needs stuff" is incredibly weak. Everything he requires at the very least has an opportunity cost of the gold that could have been made by selling it, which could be used to make useful forges instead of forges to make shitty characters slightly less shitty.

[Rewjeo]

I was referring to durability there, unless that changes too. And if he's 2HKOd by the paladins, too, who cares? Oh, and if there's a forge sitting around anyways, he can ridersbane them.

So, we can't give him a forge because it prevents other people from getting forges? It's not like no one else can use the forge. And how much of a forge are we making out of his 2500 gold Master Seal?

Also, I love how you tell me to come back after playing Lunatic and then use what Paperblade said.

[grandjackal]

Please come back when you've at least played Lunatic mode. Paperblade has said that Paladins in Chapter 15 have more attack then dragons but have 10 move.

Speaking of which, I'm having Sirius see what the average AS is on the enemy for when we get back to the mainland.

Wow, apparently you need 24 AS to double everything. Well, so much for my theory that once we reach the mainland that Raiden could slip back to Paladin if he managed to get speed. 20 AS only doubles the slowest, that being armors, generals, bishops and mages.

Also, the argument "If no one is having problems, then why do we care if he needs stuff" is incredibly weak. Everything he requires at the very least has an opportunity cost of the gold that could have been made by selling it, which could be used to make useful forges instead of forges to make shitty characters slightly less shitty.

Which is funny, because you seem to claim that no one needs forging. So tell us, do we need forging or not? Cause form the looks of it, we do for some characters, and I hardly see the issue of letting Raiden have one, especially since he has ways to make the one he's using stay reletively cheap.

Not that I didn't run into a problem with stats coming from enemies when returning bac to the mainland...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Speaking of which, I'm having Sirius see what the average AS is on the enemy for when we get back to the mainland.

Wow, apparently you need 24 AS to double everything. Well, so much for my theory that once we reach the mainland that Raiden could slip back to Paladin if he managed to get speed. 20 AS only doubles the slowest, that being armors, generals, bishops and mages.

Which is funny, because you seem to claim that no one needs forging. So tell us, do we need forging or not? Cause form the looks of it, we do for some characters, and I hardly see the issue of letting Raiden have one, especially since he has ways to make the one he's using stay reletively cheap.

Not that I didn't run into a problem with stats coming from enemies when returning bac to the mainland...

26 for the snipers as they have 22.

[Rewjeo]

If Reiden isn't being doubled as a Paladin (and it doesn't sound like he is. 22 AS seems to be the max enemy AS) then he could grab a ridersbane. Even unforged, that's 38 MT. That's gotta put a big dent in them.

Edit: Turns out 22 AS, not 20, is highest.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Slize

[Don Draper]

I was referring to durability there, unless that changes too. And if he's 2HKOd by the paladins, too, who cares? Oh, and if there's a forge sitting around anyways, he can ridersbane them.

I'm convinced you're just trying to troll me now.

So, we can't give him a forge because it prevents other people from getting forges? It's not like no one else can use the forge. And how much of a forge are we making out of his 2500 gold Master Seal?

What don't you understand about my argument? He needs a forge to be as good as any other character WITHOUT A FORGE. That's the underlying problem. That's why he can never be considered a good unit. He comes late, and requires extra resources that other characters don't require in order to perform the same as them (and in many cases worse)

Also, I love how you tell me to come back after playing Lunatic and then use what Paperblade said.

You cannot make assumptions like "Chapter 15 is just easier" without any sort of perspective or idea what you're talking about.

[Rewjeo]

I'm not saying that he's good. I'm saying he's not that bad. I'm not saying being 2HKOd is good, I'm saying that them having higher attack than dragons doesn't matter if he's 2HKOd by both.

If no one needs a forge, then that money doesn't matter that much (and I mean "that much," not "not at all") because where else would we put it? If other people need forges, then it's not much of a negative.

I didn't say that chapter 15 is easier. I said enemies were easier, and by that I meant that they're less durable than the Ice Dragons.

[grandjackal]

Wait a good goddamn minute...Those Ice Dragons only have 17 speed. Raiden doesn't need a speedwing to double those fools, just a seal to switch over to Swordmaster. Granted he loses flying dragons, but there's barely any on this map, and in hte next the big problem are ice dragons. In the ice palace, what is the ratio of enemies? I recall thieves, ice dragons and shamans.

But yeah, Raiden doesn't even need a wing. He needs a forge, but no wing. Belf could pull this off as well with a wing, along with 3 more Str, he could have the Leo and Taurus orb so that he would only require a +1 might forge. However, that still makes Belf expensive, since Raiden can actually manage to be cheaper.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Dat Nick]

Seals are worth 1250, not 2500. Items sell for half their value. I'd only consider using one to be so much of a cost; personally, I had a surplus, and I wasn't using too many pre-promotes (Julian, Sirius, Minerva, Feena, and Zag were the only guys not eating up a seal; I guess that does seem like a bit much, but consider that Feena should be a team staple anyway)

Speaking of all this shit about dragons, Maric needs to be ranked high, too. Prologue utility, can OHK flying dragons with no training at all, has good move in the desert...I don't really get why PB didn't use him or any other Excalibur-bomber in C11. Seems to me a Dragon-killer with mobility would have been absurdly useful to have.

That problem is that Robert changing into a Hero (for Chapter 13, at least) doesn't help him at all.

C13 is one chapter. You can't tell me every single enemy from C13 onwards is loaded with 1-2 range weapons.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Rewjeo]

Wow, him needing a seal is... not much at all. He's only costing 4850 gold total in that case. And 3600 of that can be used by other people, too.

[grandjackal]

C13 is one chapter. You can't tell me every single enemy from C13 onwards is loaded with 1-2 range weapons.

I can tell you right now though that 18 AS is pretty ineffective there when you need 24 AS to double all but snipers. You need 20 just to double the slowest punks there.

[Dat Nick]

Again, not arguing him for Top of Top tier or anything. I'm pretty aware he's going to rank on the lower ends of low-mid, bordering on Low.

[grandjackal]

Again, not arguing him for Top of Top tier or anything. I'm pretty aware he's going to rank on the lower ends of low-mid, bordering on Low.

He needs a wing to double armors/generls/bishops/mages as a HERO. I'm going to venture that unless he can pull off a miracle as some other class, Robert's pretty much screwed to Low.

[Dat Nick]

He needs a wing to double armors/generls/bishops/mages as a HERO. I'm going to venture that unless he can pull off a miracle as some other class, Robert's pretty much screwed to Low.

Righty-o then, I assume you're going to tell me how Malice is so much better off when sealing her just gives her Robert's bases?

[_____]

C13 is one chapter. You can't tell me every single enemy from C13 onwards is loaded with 1-2 range weapons.

In Chapter 14, all of the Dragons do. Chapter 15 starts having those murderous Paladins that IOS brought up. Chapter 16 is mostly mono-swords, so Robert actually wants Bows to chip. Chapter 17 has a bunch of Archers and Soldiers, so mono-swords aren't helping Robert (and don't even bring up E Axes at this point). Chapter 18 is more of the same, but with Generals instead of Soldiers and a lot more DKs. Chapter 19 has a ton of mages and bishops in that clusterfuck of a circle at the top. You probably won't use Robert past Chapter 17, but you definitely won't use him past Chapter 19.

Really, switching to Hero for minor stat gains doesn't help Robert much, if at all.

[Dat Nick]

There were two portions of my post, you know.

Heck, just him fitting into the horseman class (if he is that fucked as Hero, which me might be, didn't get far into lunatic) for mobile chip right away tells me he's nowhere near as boned as those two are.

[_____]

There were two portions of my post, you know.

I already responded to that one. I was responding to your response.

Robert's chip isn't even good, though. 20 attack is pretty pathetic, and he can't even whip out a Silver or something to increase that.

[Dat Nick]

I don't recall saying he was "good", or even "good but not high tier good". Just better than loads of other schmucks available, especially if you can invest into a Longbow (which may or may not be available to buy yet).

I'm not saying he's Upper Mid or even Mid, here.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[_____]

Like who? Matthis? Horace? Radd? That's great for Robert, I guess, but he still sucks. Raiden and Belf at least have auto-Horseslayer so they can nuke something injured or forge it and nuke a full health one once the Dragons stop appearing and you get normal enemies. Raiden can try that Swordmaster thing Jackal keeps stressing, I guess. What does Robert have? Shit Longbow chip? We might not even want to forge Robert's Longbow because of how expensive it is. I really can't think of a single thing that benefits Robert's case.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

It's funny you mention Malice, since she has a base speed of 17 thanks to her class, and joins about 4 chapters and a gaiden earlier. She's already proving herself by eating mages alive and canceling out Roro's weapon rank on what are generally low acc weapons like hammers. By the time you have reached the dragon's valley, you may have already maxed her speed. Seal and 2 speed shards later, she is capable of doubling dragons as early as the desert.

Which is better than whatever the hell Robert's doing.