The portrayal of women and minorities in video games

[Esau of Isaac]

Even if literally every game in the world did this (they don't) it would still be a retarded design decision.

No it wouldn't be. It's a fantasy product that isn't made to logically simulate reality.

A call and push for more political agency for marginalized groups, i.e. more women and minority legislators, more involved with the justice system, more in executive positions. Less preferential treatment to the privileged groups-- less "I didn't hire him because he had a ghetto sounding name", less "I don't mind black people when they aren't acting black"/"where's WHITE STRAIGHT entertainment television?

That also means an entertainment media that more accurately represents the variety of people that it profits off. Basically, I think we should cast off notions of "why can't people just be happy where they are?" And no more "I'm sick and tired of hearing bitching about race/class/gender!" because it's going to continue for as long as there's a problem.

How is entertainment media to more accurately represent a variety of people? What if the industry leaders are fine with their current creations?

How is this to actually change if groups of people with more radical and new ideas isn't to step up?

A story's a story. Narration is the art of expressing/processing/executing the story, and the Metal Gear series didn't do a great job with that for people who aren't cool with sitting through longass cutscenes like I am.

And Stephen King isn't great at expressing a story to someone who isn't fine with reading hundreds and hundreds of pages that only serve to give more color to his world. It doesn't change that it's a strong narrative, it just means that some people won't be able to understand the stronger narrative as effectively.

But that doesn't make it any less demeaning. Even if you convinced me that these depictions aren't demeaning towards women, it wouldn't make women feel any less demeaned.

I don't know what to say. If some feel demeaned, but I don't think they're being demeaned, what exactly do you expect to happen?

You can like boobs without objectifying women, just fyi. You can look at boobs. Games with characters with boobs aren't necessarily objectifying women until they become a focal point, which they oftentimes do, thereby drawling the association between the female body and how it essentially exists for male consumption. Realistically, it doesn't.

That doesn't make sense. Sexualization inherently involves greater concentration on an individual's physical characteristics before their mental abilities. It has to be a focal point.

[msnoodles]

That's pretty narrowminded of you, this is essentially saying if a woman and mans relationship result in sex.

No, because women generally have sex to feel good (unless they're a prostitute), not to manipulate a man's position of power for their own gain. This really isn't a healthy outlook on sex and sexuality, you guys. At best this whole rise to the jiggletits defense is creepy, at worse indicative of a larger problem.

Some developers, some disagree and have left the whole issue untouched.

No developers think "I'm not going to make a game with a black protagonist because it's hard and unnecessary" unless they're unabashed racists, and who knows, some may be (doubt a whole bunch of them are on an individual level) but they're pretty out of touch with the social/ethnic landscape of their consumer base. If you don't understand why it actually does warrant complaint then I guess the only advice I can give you is don't take the empathy other people afford to you for granted.

It's not socially acceptable to some? So white Americans would be what? Italian American? British American? Actually lets white Americans Europeans instead! <_<

Wtf are you talking about? Black people generally identify themselves as black, white people generally identify themselves as white, but it's a matter of personal preference. Just... fyi, again.

It's irrelevant that what minority they belong to. The fact is, feminism and games are two separate (linked but separate) issues. Feminism deals with living human people. Games are not living or human.

I think you should probably educate yourself before continuing with this discussion, because a lot of feminists and writers place heavy concern on the depiction of women in the media and entertainment industry. Both are inextricably tied to our culture; you're either intentionally being disingenuous, again, or you honestly don't "get it", and I suspect it's the second. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but seriously.

And I she also doesn't seem to be making any comments to support your claims.... so?

Yes, a radical feminist and anti-racist actually backs up my claims pretty nicely. We're both for equality but neither of us like racism. :)

Nitpicking again huh, can you actually address the question instead of acting high and mighty? The question did not relate to the quality of the story either.

I'm not acting high and mighty, I'm calling you out for being insensitive. You're being insensitive.

Sex in games can serve an emotional purpose as well? Why does sex need to be connected to "tits and dicks"?

Because it's usually there to sell. They don't put emotional stock into fanservice, duh. There's a huge difference between fanservice and mature portrayals of human sexuality.

Laughably simplistic from you is ironic, even in that comment writers for games=equal medium? You're joking right? ... probably not. In a novel the writer has absolute control of all elements. Whereas in games the player is often expected to control the character. The mere fact that interactivity and graphics come into the picture should be enough indication that games aren't solely about "writing"

Wtf? I didn't say they were the same, but I said the differences run deeper than what you'd indicated.

The writer doesn't have absolute control over the reader. They guide their interpretation. Novels and video games are different, but the ways you are differentiating them are pretty simplistic, again.

What's your definition of a great story then?

A story that isn't crappy. Hell, I threw out a few reasons why the classics are awesome further up in this page. I'm not holding games to the standards of Tolstoy, but they don't need to be crap either.

There no need to exclude them, but there's no need for a push for equal representation either? Do you just like ignoring the points made or are you genuinely that stupid?

If you're too emotionally invested in this then I suggest you back out before putting yourself deeper in the rabbit hole. You just genuinely don't see why people would like equal representation, and I'm not going to expend the effort to spell it out to you because at this point it's a matter of ethics/humanity. Not "is it profitable", but "should people see people like them in the media".

As said previously, your definition of "bad writing" seems to be equivalent to the plot having one factor you don't like.

No, bad writing is bad writing. There are tons of games out there with 0 fanservice but I wouldn't call it good writing. Hell, I could probably think of a few modern story-centric games that fit that bill.

Your articles which aren't related to gaming at all?

It's related to a system of oppression and marginalization that runs rampant in the West, so it was relevant. I... think you should take a step back and reread your posts. :| And then reread the other posts. And think them over before responding.

No it wouldn't be. It's a fantasy product that isn't made to logically simulate reality.

Whenever I see a really retarded plot point or character trait or something laughably unrealistic in a fantasy story, the person who wrote it usually justifies their laziness with "it's fantasy, anything goes!" No, fantasy doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever the hell you want. Obviously it's not hurting sales, but it's still a retarded design decision.

How is entertainment media to more accurately represent a variety of people? What if the industry leaders are fine with their current creations?

How is this to actually change if groups of people with more radical and new ideas isn't to step up?

I think they should step up. I certainly am, and so are a lot of people that I know who feel strongly on these sorts of issues. On a related note, I think equal representation is pretty important for everyone, where a lot of people who disagree with me seem to ask questions like "why does it matter? A person's a person, etc etc." Besides the obnoxiously destructive nature of "colorblind" racism, I think it's worth mentioning that exposing the general population to several different groups of people can better promote understanding, the ability to relate with each other, discourse, etc. Like, it's constructive no matter which way you slice it.

And Stephen King isn't great at expressing a story to someone who isn't fine with reading hundreds and hundreds of pages that only serve to give more color to his world.

Stephen King writes novellas, duders. He's also a pop-writer through and through... I mean, I respect him for the sheer volume of his work out there, but still.

I don't know what to say. If some feel demeaned, but I don't think they're being demeaned, what exactly do you expect to happen?

Try to empathize with them?

That doesn't make sense. Sexualization inherently involves greater concentration on an individual's physical characteristics before their mental abilities. It has to be a focal point.

That's a pretty weird way to look at it. You can find someone sexy without objectifying them. Try it!

Edited October 16, 2010 by msnoodles

[Kanami]

No, because women generally have sex to feel good (unless they're a prostitute), not to manipulate a man's position of power for their own gain. This really isn't a healthy outlook on sex and sexuality, you guys. At best this whole rise to the jiggletits defense is creepy, at worse indicative of a larger problem.

Wasn't going to respond, but this one was just too good to pass up.

If women have sex to "feel good" they need to appeal to the opponent first? Though there are alternatives that don't involve a human partner...... that's another thing completely XD

Just out of curiosity are you some sort of muslim supporter? (nothing wrong with it, just wondering) since the who ordeal regarding not using physical appearance to get attention/sex sounds like the "why women should wear burka" argument. And your other comments point towards skimpy clothing as girls "asking for it" :/

[msnoodles]

If women have sex to "feel good" they need to appeal to the opponent first? Though there are alternatives that don't involve a human partner...... that's another thing completely

In a healthy intimate relationship yeah women have sex to feel good. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

Just out of curiosity are you some sort of muslim supporter? (nothing wrong with it, just wondering) since the who ordeal regarding not using physical appearance to get attention/sex sounds like the "why women should wear burka" argument. And your other comments point towards skimpy clothing as girls "asking for it"

I... what? A Muslim supporter as opposed to what?

Objectification isn't sexual liberation, if that's what you're trying to say. A girl doesn't have to put herself out there as an object to get sex or attention, I promise.

And your other comments point towards skimpy clothing as girls "asking for it"

... what the fuck are you talking about?

[Defeatist Elitist]

That's a pretty weird way to look at it. You can find someone sexy without objectifying them. Try it!

Grah, anyway, what the fuck? Seriously, if you don't know why it was completely ridiculous to say that, try going back and reading our posts.

There is a difference between fiction and reality, and while fiction can change how people view reality, it's still fiction. There is nothing inherently wrong with a game that involves women in an intensely sexual light, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with a game that involves you killing people constantly, or even a game like RapeLay. More importantly, you literally have no evidence whatsoever that this sexualization of women is driving people away from the market. You keep posting articles and videos, but the majority of them either are almost entirely meaningless, or in the case of that video from the "Game Insider", say pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

Honestly, this conversation has gotten so convoluted and far away from the original points (probably because as I've mentioned you literally have nothing supporting your viewpoint here) that it's impossible for me to keep track of.

[msnoodles]

There is a difference between fiction and reality, and while fiction can change how people view reality, it's still fiction. There is nothing inherently wrong with a game that involves women in an intensely sexual light, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with a game that involves you killing people constantly, or even a game like RapeLay.

or even a game like RapeLay.

So much of your post is wtf that I don't even know where to start. It's like when a hoarder amasses so much shit in their house that they don't know how to begin cleaning it, so I guess I'll just leave it at this.

No, gamers, rape simulators aren't good!

[Defeatist Elitist]

No, gamers, rape simulators aren't good!

Hahahaha. Alright, what is wrong with a rape simulator? Enlighten me, oh enlightened one! Does it hurt women? Do you think all men are mindless beasts who will immediately assume women simply exist to be raped immediately upon playing it (if they don't assume this already!)?

Why do you have a problem with rape simulators, but not murder simulators? After all, isn't murder worse than rape?

You know, I like equality. It's something I strive for in my life. Unlike Kanami, I support affirmative action, I support society going out of its way to give women and minorities a leg up, and I don't believe that women have necessarilly reached equality with men. And I am a man.

[msnoodles]

Hahahaha. Alright, what is wrong with a rape simulator? Enlighten me, oh enlightened one! Does it hurt women? Do you think all men are mindless beasts who will immediately assume women simply exist to be raped immediately upon playing it (if they don't assume this already!)

I don't think rape simulators necessarily put women in immediate danger. It's fucked up like shota and loli is fucked up.

Like really, there's shit I enjoy that people would find fucked up, but I'm not going to try to justify it by actively defending it. :|

And I am a man.

There are ton of male feminists who strive for equality and equal opportunity, so this isn't especially unique.

It also should be mentioned that RapeLay is the product of a culture that is so oppressive when it comes to sexual expression that it comes out in the weirdest ways e.g. tentacle rape. I'm not going to get into the numerous issues over there, but yeah, it certainly is a symptom of something bigger.

Edited October 16, 2010 by msnoodles

[Defeatist Elitist]

I don't think rape simulators necessarily put women in immediate danger. It's fucked up like shota and loli is fucked up.

But why are they fucked up? You're arguing about how our culture and Japanese culture oppress women, but then saying these things are "fucked up" because our CULTURE finds them unnacceptable. There is nothing inherently wrong or destructive about any of those three things, why are they fucked up?

Like really, there's shit I enjoy that people would find fucked up, but I'm not going to try to justify it by actively defending it. :|

You shouldn't have to justify them or defend them. People should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want as long as they're not harming other people against their will, and if anyone tries to say otherwise they can go fuck themselves. There is no logical reason to act otherwise. It's a sad fact of our civilization that morals generally exist to oppress people.

There are ton of male feminists who strive for equality and equal opportunity, so this isn't especially unique.

I'm not claiming this, what I am trying to do is explain that this is a different issue. I don't want you to have the wrong impression, is all.

It also should be mentioned that RapeLay is the product of a culture that is so oppressive when it comes to sexual expression that it comes out in the weirdest ways e.g. tentacle rape. I'm not going to get into the numerous issues over there, but yeah, it certainly is a symptom of something bigger.

Yes and no. Japan is pretty fucked up in some ways, but so are we. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. In fact, the Japanese view of sex is one part of Japanese culture that I think is in some ways admirable, unless I completely misunderstand it (which I somehow doubt). There are some parts of it that I dislike, but it's certainly not worse than Western Culture in that regard.

[msnoodles]

You're arguing about how our culture and Japanese culture oppress women, but then saying these things are "fucked up" because our CULTURE finds them unnacceptable.

Because I find rape and child porn unpalatable. It's one thing to put it in an artistic light like Lolita, Hounddog (first thing that came to mind when I thought "childrape"), etc, and I guess I dislike people dismissing it as "pure fantasy" for the same reason I don't like it when slashfic writers slap "noncon" onto their fic. It's almost like they're trivializing a genuine issue. :|

People should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want as long as they're not harming other people against their will, and if anyone tries to say otherwise they can go fuck themselves

If anything, I think the crux of my argument is that hypersexualization shouldn't be the face of video games, not that I want people to stop playing them. People are going to fantasize about rape, but capitalizing off it is going a little too far.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Um... I started an entire thread over my dissatisfaction with Western culture so this doesn't hold much water.

The Middle East was pretty much the central hub for scholars, artists, intellectuals, philosophers, etc until very recently. There's so much good to be said about the variety of cultures there... but I will also say that throwing acid on a woman's face is fucked up.

There's a lot of good to be said about Japanese culture, but I don't like the xenophobia, the mistreatment of the handicapped, the racism, the sexism, etc. Certainly not everyone in Japan is happy with this too, because I've read complaints and social commentary in the form of art (hurr manga) and all of that good stuff expressing their dissatisfaction with aspects of their own culture. But both the US and Japan are weird about expressing sexuality in the media. They somehow manage to come off as prudish and hypersexual at the same time.

[Esau of Isaac]

Whenever I see a really retarded plot point or character trait or something laughably unrealistic in a fantasy story, the person who wrote it usually justifies their laziness with "it's fantasy, anything goes!" No, fantasy doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever the hell you want. Obviously it's not hurting sales, but it's still a retarded design decision.

Then complain about the existence of fucking magic. That's far more laughably absurd than a woman being able to kick ass because she's a soldier.

I think they should step up. I certainly am, and so are a lot of people that I know who feel strongly on these sorts of issues. On a related note, I think equal representation is pretty important for everyone, where a lot of people who disagree with me seem to ask questions like "why does it matter? A person's a person, etc etc." Besides the obnoxiously destructive nature of "colorblind" racism, I think it's worth mentioning that exposing the general population to several different groups of people can better promote understanding, the ability to relate with each other, discourse, etc. Like, it's constructive no matter which way you slice it.

What I am saying is all of the companies of the gaming world, from Square Enix, to Team Ninja, to Konami, Capcom, etc. They all have established character traits, dynamics, and design that they use to approach videogame making. These people will probably not want to change their dynamics for being more equal-minded simply because people are underrepresented in videogames.

Stephen King writes novellas, duders. He's also a pop-writer through and through... I mean, I respect him for the sheer volume of his work out there, but still.

I'm more pointing to his famous works like It and The Stand, not his short stories, which I like in their own right.

Try to empathize with them?

Empathy doesn't mean agreeing with someone.

That's a pretty weird way to look at it. You can find someone sexy without objectifying them. Try it!

You can't approach an artificial construct created for the purpose of sexualization without objectifying them. They are displayed with one of their primary purposes whenever their physical characteristics are shown to be viewed in a primarily sexual light. It goes without saying that it is not possible to concentrate on meaningful, realistic character progression while concentrating on purely physical aspects. They're mutually exclusive events.

I don't think rape simulators necessarily put women in immediate danger. It's fucked up like shota and loli is fucked up.

Rapelay involves direct, unwanted sexual contact. Loli or shota can both be constructed in a fairly lighthearted manner, regardless of implications that arise because of morality.

Unless we're talking about pretty sick shit in the realm of loli or shota, they're pretty different.

Like really, there's shit I enjoy that people would find fucked up, but I'm not going to try to justify it by actively defending it. :|

That's not his point.

There are ton of male feminists who strive for equality and equal opportunity, so this isn't especially unique.

It also should be mentioned that RapeLay is the product of a culture that is so oppressive when it comes to sexual expression that it comes out in the weirdest ways e.g. tentacle rape. I'm not going to get into the numerous issues over there, but yeah, it certainly is a symptom of something bigger.

So oppressive that it has one of the lowest rates of crime in the world.

If acting out fantasies through fiction helps the situation in reality, then I'm all for people like Illusion going nuts with their games.

Because I find rape and child porn unpalatable. It's one thing to put it in an artistic light like Lolita, Hounddog (first thing that came to mind when I thought "childrape"), etc, and I guess I dislike people dismissing it as "pure fantasy" for the same reason I don't like it when slashfic writers slap "noncon" onto their fic. It's almost like they're trivializing a genuine issue. :|

People like what people like. They shouldn't be held accountable for acting out fantasies that have no victims. Thought crime doesn't exist.

If anything, I think the crux of my argument is that hypersexualization shouldn't be the face of video games, not that I want people to stop playing them. People are going to fantasize about rape, but capitalizing off it is going a little too far.

As opposed to capitalizing off of killing? The top sellers at most times involve shooting people to death within their gameplay.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[msnoodles]

Then complain about the existence of fucking magic.

I don't think you get it.

"Okay, in my story we've established that there's magic!"

"Cool, go on."

"So the main character is a neko magic girl prostitute who saves the world by vanquishing monster of the week by utilizing her 'totems' or animal spirit guides."

"Okay."

"She looks quite young for her age but everywhere she goes, even people who're unaware of her exploits are totally floored by her commanding presence and do whatever she wants!"

"Um..."

Final Fantasy has always been ridiculously cartoonish to a degree, but just fyi if you're going to apply this to any piece of fiction with magic, magic doesn't give the writer a free pass to go fantastic with basic human interaction/the rules of logic.

These people will probably not want to change their dynamics for being more equal-minded simply because people are underrepresented in videogames.

Companies are not people and employees of a company are not monolithically like-minded.

Empathy doesn't mean agreeing with someone.

Let me get this straight.

"HHH boobs and a size 0? This is kind of... demeaning."

"NO IT ISN'T but I feel for you."

You can't approach an artificial construct created for the purpose of sexualization without objectifying them.

Why do games need an artificial construct created for the purpose of sexualization, then. No, if the character was created for the purpose of sexualization, then it doesn't have any agency. If you're dead-set on keeping the objectified female characters objects, then by all means, reinforce my argument and call for stronger female leads?

Rapelay involves direct, unwanted sexual contact. Loli or shota can both be constructed in a fairly lighthearted manner, regardless of implications that arise because of morality.

Unless we're talking about pretty sick shit in the realm of loli or shota, they're pretty different.

By loli and shota I mean portraying children in a sexual light.

So oppressive that it has one of the lowest rates of crime in the world.

And one of the highest suicide rates.

They shouldn't be held accountable for acting out fantasies that have no victims. Thought crime doesn't exist.

They're not criminals, but yeah erotic Hetalia rape fanfiction based on the Rape of Nanking is in terrible taste, insensitive, and trivializing something that actually happens. I'm not calling for the chick who wrote it to be locked up, but still.

As opposed to capitalizing off of killing? The top sellers at most times involve shooting people to death within their gameplay.

"Why do you like GTA?"

"I like the sandbox style of play and sense of humor."

"I like TO KILL."

This isn't Fox News, we don't need to drag in meaningless buzzwords like KILLING SIMULATORS.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Because I find rape and child porn unpalatable. It's one thing to put it in an artistic light like Lolita, Hounddog (first thing that came to mind when I thought "childrape"), etc, and I guess I dislike people dismissing it as "pure fantasy" for the same reason I don't like it when slashfic writers slap "noncon" onto their fic. It's almost like they're trivializing a genuine issue. :|

Dismissing it as pure fantasy doesn't mean they're trivializing it, it means generally that they are acknowledging the fact that these things are not acceptable in reality. It means that they understand why these things are wrong, and why we DON'T do them, why he have laws about these things.

If anything, I think the crux of my argument is that hypersexualization shouldn't be the face of video games, not that I want people to stop playing them. People are going to fantasize about rape, but capitalizing off it is going a little too far.

Then why should killing be the face of video games (which as I have said before, is much more prevalent than hypersexualization, hypersexualization is not particulaly rampant in the industry)?

Um... I started an entire thread over my dissatisfaction with Western culture so this doesn't hold much water.

Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant Western culture has a lot of problems specifically with prudishness and repression of sexual expression.

There's a lot of good to be said about Japanese culture, but I don't like the xenophobia, the mistreatment of the handicapped, the racism, the sexism, etc. Certainly not everyone in Japan is happy with this too, because I've read complaints and social commentary in the form of art (hurr manga) and all of that good stuff expressing their dissatisfaction with aspects of their own culture. But both the US and Japan are weird about expressing sexuality in the media. They somehow manage to come off as prudish and hypersexual at the same time.

I agree with you on this, I just find that the Japanese expressions of sexuality in Media aren't so bad as Western ones. I find them to be slightly less prudish I guess (though mosaics are pretty lol).

This isn't Fox News, we don't need to drag in meaningless buzzwords like KILLING SIMULATORS.

What about "rape simulator" then?

Just because our culture prefers killing people over having sex with them doesn't mean killing someone is better than having sex with them.[/facetious]

[msnoodles]

Dismissing it as pure fantasy doesn't mean they're trivializing it,

I'm actually talking about the people that defend them, not the writers themselves, but I'm sure they would've resorted to that if I hadn't stopped reading after "it's not a big deal, it's just for titillation". Purely going off specific/anecdotal example here though.

Then why should killing be the face of video games (which as I have said before, is much more prevalent than hypersexualization, hypersexualization is not particulaly rampant in the industry)?

I don't think killing should be the face of the industry either. I can see how it'd be alienating and off-putting to a lot of potential customers as well, and while I can tolerate excessive violence, I would never demand for more of it. In fact, I'd say it'd be nice if all of that imagery commonly associated with "hardcore gaming" wasn't as prevalent as it is, because it holds a lot of negative connotations for a lot of people even today.

Gaming "culture" on the surface is terribly misogynistic and there's a reason girls don't want to be associated with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXr0Mzha4&feature=player_embedded

You can say "yeah well Munn is a real person/this is different/this doesn't represent gaming 'culture'" etc but this is what a lot of people see and this is what influences their opinions. I might've mentioned the amount of stupid shit girls face on voicechat over xbl, around guys who identify themselves as "gamers" (probably a red flag, haha) and how, for a group of like-minded individuals, it was so uncomfortable and awkward and out of place for them.

The female audience for video games is expanding and I hope it continues to expand, but this "stereotypical nerd shit" isn't a myth, it actually happens. :| Shit needs to stop. I think the prevalence of hypersexual games feeds into this sentiment-- there's always going to be a market for it, but I don't see why it has to be as big as it is.

Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant Western culture has a lot of problems specifically with prudishness and repression of sexual expression.

Absolutely. I don't even think nudity should always be construed in a sexual manner, but the fact that people are either meant to feel ashamed or consumers of it leads to a weird, weird sort of hypersensitivity concerning sex and the human body. Japan has one thing going for them: they don't freak out over little boy penis (not talking about shota). Like, they don't bat an eye at child nudity because it isn't really a big deal over there like it would be here.

I just find that the Japanese expressions of sexuality in Media aren't so bad as Western ones. I find them to be slightly less prudish I guess

Like with westerners, it depends on who you're looking at. Both cultures are extremely repressive about different aspects of sexuality, both end up expressing it in extreme ways, and I hope both see a future improvement in this regard.

Just because our culture prefers killing people over having sex with them doesn't mean killing someone is better than having sex with them.

Overt hypersexualization is as common as overt violence-- I just don't think either should be a MAJOR TENET OF THE GAME INDUSTRY, and I like my violent games as much as anyone else.

[Esau of Isaac]

I don't think you get it.

"Okay, in my story we've established that there's magic!"

"Cool, go on."

"So the main character is a neko magic girl prostitute who saves the world by vanquishing monster of the week by utilizing her 'totems' or animal spirit guides."

"Okay."

"She looks quite young for her age but everywhere she goes, even people who're unaware of her exploits are totally floored by her commanding presence and do whatever she wants!"

"Um..."

Final Fantasy has always been ridiculously cartoonish to a degree, but just fyi if you're going to apply this to any piece of fiction with magic, magic doesn't give the writer a free pass to go fantastic with basic human interaction/the rules of logic.

Wait wait wait, why the fuck do you say "Um..." to her presence, which we weren't even talking about, but not to the magic bit?

Companies are not people and employees of a company are not monolithically like-minded.

Right, but not everyone that works at the company are the ones making the decisions. Each team that works on a piece of any given project is being headed by some individual or individuals, and those individuals all collaborate together.

Smaller companies run by fewer people work more loosely, but it goes without saying that a more structured environment is more efficient.

Let me get this straight.

"HHH boobs and a size 0? This is kind of... demeaning."

"NO IT ISN'T but I feel for you."

I think this might actually help me justify my Communications courses:

"It is easy to confuse empathy with synmpathy, but the concepts are diferent. With sympathy, you view the other person's situation from your point of view; with empathy, you view it from the other person's perspective. Consider the difference between sympathizing and empathizing with an unwed mother or a homeless person. When you sympathize, it is the other person's confusion, joy, or pain. When you empathize, the experience becomes your own, at least for the moment. It's one thing to feel bad (or good) for someone; it's more profound to feel bad (or good) with someone. Nonetheless, empathy doesn't require to agree with the other person. You can empathize with a difficult relative or a rude stranger without endorsing their behavior."

In other words, empathy is a tool by which to understand your positions by recreating the events you have experienced in my head. It is a means by which I can understand your position, not necessarily agree with it.

Why do games need an artificial construct created for the purpose of sexualization, then.

For the same reason games need an artificial construct created without the purpose of sexualization? General entertainment, I guess.

No, if the character was created for the purpose of sexualization, then it doesn't have any agency. If you're dead-set on keeping the objectified female characters objects, then by all means, reinforce my argument and call for stronger female leads?

As if female leads aren't already obscenely overly strong as it is.

By loli and shota I mean portraying children in a sexual light.

I know.

And one of the highest suicide rates.

And the highest qualities of life.

They're not criminals, but yeah erotic Hetalia rape fanfiction based on the Rape of Nanking is in terrible taste, insensitive, and trivializing something that actually happens. I'm not calling for the chick who wrote it to be locked up, but still.

Lots of things are in terrible taste.

"Why do you like GTA?"

"I like the sandbox style of play and sense of humor."

"I like TO KILL."

This isn't Fox News, we don't need to drag in meaningless buzzwords like KILLING SIMULATORS.

Okay, so as long as the game isn't centered around rape, gameplay that involves constant graphic depiction of rape are okay?

What?

[msnoodles]

Old news, but I found something pretty neat and contrary to the belief that developers don't want to incorporate diversity into their games. Pretty telling of the executive meddling that hampers these studios in general.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29719/InDepth_No_Female_Heroes_At_Activision.php

As the game industry goes mainstream and AAA console headlines gain more mass-media mindshare thanks to the big dollars it's able to pull down around launches like Modern Warfare 2, consumers and developers alike frequently question the dominance of masculine heroes and discuss the difficulty of attracting women to the medium both as players and designers.

At the Game Developers Conference earlier this year, designer Manveer Heir, researcher Mia Consalvo, and journalists Jamin Brophy-Warren and Leigh Alexander (the latter is the author of this article) hosted a panel on the importance of diversity in games. Heir is now a senior level designer at BioWare Montreal, but presented the panel as a lead designer at Raven Software, an Activision studio. He spoke to Gamasutra solely regarding his panel and declined any comment on his former employer or its process, but says he passionately believes that offering gamers alternatives to white, masculine protagonists is important to the industry.

As a designer, the current paradigm is "no longer interesting to me," he says. "In order for players to have new experiences in games we cannot rely purely on better graphics, better writing, and more cinematics. We need to be willing to thrust players into new and different situations, from a fragile boy searching for his sister in Limbo to an African-American man trying to prove his innocence during the Civil Rights movement."

"From there, we can derive new gameplay mechanics, new aesthetics for the audio and visuals, and more," adds Heir. "This is a clear way to start expanding our industry and letting players have new, unique experiences."

[Esau of Isaac]

But there isn't any denying that there are established developers that are going to continue utilizing tried and true tactics so long as it makes them money. The fact that some others will take large risks doesn't change that.

[msnoodles]

Wait wait wait, why the fuck do you say "Um..." to her presence, which we weren't even talking about, but not to the magic bit?

It's an analogy. Audiences are able to "accept" magic, but in most mediums other than video games, if you throw in a retarded idea then they'll see it as retarded. I don't see how "there's magic" automatically justifies a design flaw.

In other words, empathy is a tool by which to understand your positions by recreating the events you have experienced in my head. It is a means by which I canunderstand your position, not necessarily agree with it.

But it's not so much a matter of fact as it is of feeling. If a girl feels demeaned, she feels demeaned. There's little room for gray area.

For the same reason games need an artificial construct created without the purpose of sexualization? General entertainment, I guess.

Entertainment doesn't have to fall on a sexual-nonsexual binary.

As if female leads aren't already obscenely overly strong as it is.

They aren't. The strong female leads are basically just extensions of the player. Which leads are obscenely overly strong?

And the highest qualities of life.

It's an industrialized nation. :| Seriously, there's a lot of fuck-uppery that surrounds Japanese culture. There's a lot of fuck-uppery that surrounds Western culture. I know this is hard to swallow, but no culture is infallible.

Okay, so as long as the game isn't centered around rape, gameplay that involves constant graphic depiction of rape are okay?

If someone's going to make a game like that, I'm not going to stop them, but I'd rather it not be the face of the fucking industry.

But there isn't any denying that there are established developers that are going to continue utilizing tried and true tactics so long as it makes them money.

Nobody's advocating for the stereotypical white male badass to go away, though. We just want to see more diversity, which doesn't have to replace the "tried and true tactics".

Edited October 16, 2010 by msnoodles

[Esau of Isaac]

It's an analogy. Audiences are able to "accept" magic, but in most mediums other than video games, if you throw in a retarded idea then they'll see it as retarded. I don't see how "there's magic" automatically justifies a design flaw.

It's not a design flaw. She's strong because it's a fantasy world and she's a soldier. It's like complaining that Batman is able to beat up bad guys. He's supposed to be able to do that, it's part of the suspension of disbelief.

Like, if you can't even accept normal-sized people being able to perform impossible stunts, then how did you get through any videogame storyline in the first place?

But it's not so much a matter of fact as it is of feeling. If a girl feels demeaned, she feels demeaned. There's little room for gray area.

It's a matter-of-fact that she feels demeaned. Some could feel demeaned, with their solution being off-the-wall insane. Utilizing empathy, I can find how and why she came to that conclusion. It in no way means I have to agree with her line of thought.

Entertainment doesn't have to fall on a sexual-nonsexual binary.

Wait, wait, what? Am I in the Twilight Zone right now, or am I just somehow misreading this?

They aren't. The strong female leads are basically just extensions of the player. Which leads are obscenely overly strong?

I already listed like a half a dozen. I can't think of any popular leads that don't fit the strong stereotype in some sense.

It's an industrialized nation. :| Seriously, there's a lot of fuck-uppery that surrounds Japanese culture. There's a lot of fuck-uppery that surrounds Western culture. I know this is hard to swallow, but no culture is infallible.

I never said their culture is infallible. I never even began to suggest it.

If someone's going to make a game like that, I'm not going to stop them, but I'd rather it not be the face of the fucking industry.

So what do you want the face of the industry?

Nobody's advocating for the stereotypical white male badass to go away, though. We just want to see more diversity, which doesn't have to replace the "tried and true tactics".

Yeah, it does. Diversity on the scale you're speaking of would necessarily involve a paradigm shift in the industry. You want to see a lot of diversity in games. That means that games that involve tried and true methods of characterization are going to need to be changed in developers that stick to old tactics that sale games.

I'm not necessarily saying that it can't happen, or even that it shouldn't happen. It's just impossible for diversity to enter the picture without throwing out the old way of going about things, at least for a given period of time.

[msnoodles]

if you can't even accept normal-sized people

Lightning is ridiculously thin. This isn't coming from a bitter fat girl, this is coming from someone who was once stupidly underweight and who's now involved in a combat sport. There's an obvious difference in size and muscle, even though it's not that dramatic. I like that they didn't go crazy with cleavage or panty shots with her, but still, Squenix.

Like Snow's appearance makes sense because he's a big and relatively imposing dude, a great meatshield. MAGIC EXISTS can better justify Vanille and Hope because you're probably using magic with them, they're not really utilizing physical brawn. As for Fang, well... she's getting there.

As an example of something I'd consider a good design choice, take Faith from Mirror's Edge. She's not huge, but she's not there to bowl through all the bad guys, she's there to run. She's got the legs of a kangaroo. Not a whole lot in the way of boobage-- impossible to run with those as any significant impediment. I don't know if she'd be considered "stereotypically strong" by your standards, but she's definitely capable.

Some could feel demeaned, with their solution being off-the-wall insane.

I'm sure Mormons felt demeaned by that episode of South Park, and while I would find that sort of silly, I'd still respect that.

Wait, wait, what? Am I in the Twilight Zone right now, or am I just somehow misreading this?

Probably the second.

I can't think of any popular leads that don't fit the strong stereotype in some sense.

Pretty much all leads regardless of gender "fit the strong stereotype" with a few exceptions. If you want a game where the girl's constantly running away/hiding and unable to really overpower her enemy, I suggest the Clock Tower series (it's actually pretty cool so I'm not being sarcastic or anything).

So what do you want the face of the industry?

What's the face of the movie industry? TV? Music? All the mediums have the ability of near-universal appeal, and it's not like video games are inherently a pimply white dude's thing. There's a significant underrepresentation of minorities and women with agency in these mediums as well, but it's not so much to the point where a girl or a gay guy or a latino can look at it and say "this wasn't made for me".

Diversity on the scale you're speaking of would necessarily involve a paradigm shift in the industry. You want to see a lot of diversity in games. That means that games that involve tried and true methods of characterization are going to need to be changed in developers that stick to old tactics that sale games.

Nobody's asking for them to do it overnight. I want the developers who genuinely want to incorporate this diversity to do it without constraints from executives or "marketing research" (which would skew it in the first place... I mean no, none of the top 10 games of the year have a Latino hero, but all that shows us is that no games have a Latino protagonist). It's never going to happen all at once, but why does it have to, since that seems to be what you're saying? Gradually expand who's represented in games without stifling the creative process-- nobody's gonna hold a gun to the studios' heads and ask for an even race/gender/sexuality ratio.

[Esau of Isaac]

Lightning is ridiculously thin. This isn't coming from a bitter fat girl, this is coming from someone who was once stupidly underweight and who's now involved in a combat sport. There's an obvious difference in size and muscle, even though it's not that dramatic. I like that they didn't go crazy with cleavage or panty shots with her, but still, Squenix.

She is the same size as like every single other female in the series. And most female leads in other games.

She's strong because it's what her character entails. She can also make shots with her gun that can't be made in real life, and spin around in the air, which is impossible regardless of your physical form. Is this unacceptable?

I'm sure Mormons felt demeaned by that episode of South Park, and while I would find that sort of silly, I'd still respect that.

You can understand it. It doesn't mean you have to fall in with them on their proposal for it to be banned.

Probably the second.

Alright then, can you restate the sentence?

Pretty much all leads regardless of gender "fit the strong stereotype" with a few exceptions. If you want a game where the girl's constantly running away/hiding and unable to really overpower her enemy, I suggest the Clock Tower series (it's actually pretty cool so I'm not being sarcastic or anything).

I don't want a girl that is constantly running away in more games. I don't really "want" anything. I think it's kind of odd that the industry can't crank out a female character that isn't tough as nails and doesn't need a man without being called depthless and sexist, but I don't really want more characters that fill any particular role.

What's the face of the movie industry? TV? Music? All the mediums have the ability of near-universal appeal, and it's not like video games are inherently a pimply white dude's thing. There's a significant underrepresentation of minorities and women with agency in these mediums as well, but it's not so much to the point where a girl or a gay guy or a latino can look at it and say "this wasn't made for me".

Again, you keep stating a stereotype that hasn't been true for a decade. Videogames are incredibly mainstream these days, thanks to accessible games for all ages and playstyles. There is no real face to the television or movie industry. They are constantly changing, over time altering to fit the public's ideals for a better movie or television program.

Nobody's asking for them to do it overnight. I want the developers who genuinely want to incorporate this diversity to do it without constraints from executives or "marketing research" (which would skew it in the first place... I mean no, none of the top 10 games of the year have a Latino hero, but all that shows us is that no games have a Latino protagonist).

Luis Lopez.

It's never going to happen all at once, but why does it have to, since that seems to be what you're saying? Gradually expand who's represented in games without stifling the creative process-- nobody's gonna hold a gun to the studios' heads and ask for an even race/gender/sexuality ratio.

Where am I saying that it has to happen all at once. I am saying that it has to involve a paradigm shift. And it does.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Life]

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention.

There also is a crossdresser in Final Fantasy. And nobody's gone after that person for being... I don't know, different?

Not the greatest picture but yeah, this is a girl dressing up as a guy. As her character.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Sue Sylvester

[msnoodles]

She is the same size as like every single other female in the series. And most female leads in other games.

Final Fantasy is not exempt from criticism, especially when it comes to character designs. I've heard jokes like "next FF protagonist is gonna be a belt with zippers criss-crossing all the way down", I don't say "THAT'S JUST THE STYLE OF THE GAME" because yeah Nomura can get pretty crazy with his designs. It's a fair point either way you slice it.

You can understand it. It doesn't mean you have to fall in with them on their proposal for it to be banned.

Who the hell is trying to ban anything? Asking for more representation and more female protagonists who aren't hypersexed isn't trying to threaten or strongarm the white male pandering that you see from the game industries, it's asking for more representation.

Alright then, can you restate the sentence?

Can you clarify what it was answering?

I don't really "want" anything. I think it's kind of odd that the industry can't crank out a female character that isn't tough as nails and doesn't need a man without being called depthless and sexist,

Very few of the male characters aren't tough as nails either. It'd be nice for there to be more pussy characters in general, but I don't see why you'd want it to be exclusively applied to females.

Again, you keep stating a stereotype that hasn't been true for a decade. Videogames are incredibly mainstream these days, thanks to accessible games for all ages and playstyles.

Yes it is. :| I'd love for video games to be as mainstream as movies, enough for a girl to admit she plays it without being associated with that "subculture", and yes, it still has that reputation. Gaming "culture" can be misogynist as fuck, and the fact that the jiggletits are so prevalent isn't helping.

Especially if you look at "hardcore" gaming. It's predominately male because "it's always been that way" and there's been no efforts to reach out, so to speak, even if it could expand the market's horizons.

Luis Lopez.

You're right, I think we should just stop complaining because there's a latino hero in a downloadable add-on to GTA 4.

Dude, that is not sufficient representation and it's sort of offensive that you'd even imply that's good enough.

I am saying that it has to involve a paradigm shift. And it does.

Okay? Doesn't mean it oughtn't happen.

And nobody's gone after that person for being... I don't know, different?

Yeah, I don't know why people are so vehemently of the opinion that incorporating more "different" characters are going to ruin sales or spell the downfall of video games or something.

Edited October 16, 2010 by msnoodles

[Parrhesia]

Can we just ban the word 'jiggletits' from this discussion? It's getting kinda ridiculous.

[msnoodles]

Sure? Can we ban obnoxious macros too?