I want to know. All of those reformed murderers, thieves, and all those other kinds of people. What causes them to change?

[FionordeQuester]

I know everybody is different, but I'm still curious to know some reasons some of them have given for it, especially the murderers and whatever serial killers may have changed their ways. Does anyone know any writings or anything from real life people who had the conviction and/or happenings in their life needed to realize that they needed to change? I'd really like to see something like that.

Edited October 15, 2010 by FionordeQuester

[Kanami]

That's a pretty big diversity in crimes you have there, a thief might go to prison and get a "shock" which pulls him out of that habit. I know a few cases where that's occurred for people who have been using illegal drugs (casually, not dependently). Whereas a serial rapist/murder is likely to just go out (of prison after serving his term) and re offending. Since something needs to be fixed at the psychological stage, and long periods of isolation and control doesn't tend to help them reform.

The most common solution I hear is seeking psychologic help, though my experience with shrinks have me doubting whether they actually help.

[FionordeQuester]

Well, the main thing is, since neither of us really know, I just wonder if there's some written confession or book or something like that written by a reformed criminal or something like that, where they say what they think caused them to change. That's what I was really wondering. What do they say made them change?

[Esau of Isaac]

For the same reason everyone else changes? They're not a different species or something.

[Defeatist Elitist]

That's a pretty big diversity in crimes you have there, a thief might go to prison and get a "shock" which pulls him out of that habit. I know a few cases where that's occurred for people who have been using illegal drugs (casually, not dependently). Whereas a serial rapist/murder is likely to just go out (of prison after serving his term) and re offending. Since something needs to be fixed at the psychological stage, and long periods of isolation and control doesn't tend to help them reform.

The most common solution I hear is seeking psychologic help, though my experience with shrinks have me doubting whether they actually help.

Actually, murder has an absurdly low re-offense rate as far as I know, compared to things like theft.

Basically, the way I look at it is like this. Why don't YOU commit crimes? Why don't most people commit crimes? All you need to do is isolate the right factor and address it, basically. It's probably different for everyone, but there is going to be some reason they do it. Sometimes it is a reason that we aren't really able to isolate, or if we are, we may be unable to address it. However, sometimes we can, and it works.

So I guess my answer would be that it depends.

[FionordeQuester]

I see. Still, I'm interested in hearing out some of their stories. And I know they're not a different species Esau. Everyone is capable of evil and all of that, so them being fundamentally different in chemistry or something wouldn't make any sense.

[Life]

What causes them to change? I personally have no idea but you should be asking this man.

[Kanami]

Actually, murder has an absurdly low re-offense rate as far as I know, compared to things like theft.

Basically, the way I look at it is like this. Why don't YOU commit crimes? Why don't most people commit crimes? All you need to do is isolate the right factor and address it, basically. It's probably different for everyone, but there is going to be some reason they do it. Sometimes it is a reason that we aren't really able to isolate, or if we are, we may be unable to address it. However, sometimes we can, and it works.

So I guess my answer would be that it depends.

Murderers and serial murderers are slightly different. While in isolated cases, things like theft have a lot less repercussions, a case like

"I got angry and shoved my wife, who fell down the stairs and died"

Pretty much are reformed immediately after the act. Whereas

"I love bringing women home and watching them beg for mercy while I stab them repeatedly"...... not so much. XD

@Fionorde

As I said in my last post I can't give you a referral to such sources. However I did do a short essay on Jeffrey Dahmer a few years back, and I think he cited religion (God forgave me is such a useful tool<_<) and the shock of being caught which encouraged him to change his pedo-necro-homo tendencies. Though he was killed in prison, so whether he actually meant it or not... :/

I can try look things up. "Reformed criminals why" or something like that in google should get you a few hits I'd think. But what are you looking at? Strong crimes (murder, rape) or petty crimes (Theft, GBH)? And are you looking at repeat or the once-only offender?

[FionordeQuester]

Strong offenders. Preferably repeat ones. Their stories would be pretty fascinating. Basically, how did some of the worst of the worst of men and women get over their faults and become righteous people.

Edited October 15, 2010 by FionordeQuester

[Kanami]

Well from what I've found so far it seems to mainly be counseling and re-education.

Words of interest include

-Rehabilitation

-Penology

-Recidivism

-Deterrence

-Utilitarianism

-Classic Conditioning

What you're essentially asking is "Why do people commit crime?"

And then trying to work out why this "urge" no longer exists after they are released from prison.

For things like Theft (Simple) it could be because they're poor. (Re-educated so they can get a job, otherwise they'll reoffend) Or it may be because they have a habit of it and subconsciously think it's alright (Needs to be reconditioned)

As for murderers and rapists, it involves things like having a sense of power. And psychological treatment seems to be the only valid answer I can find. Essentially, what you need to do is beat into them that murder=bad. There was one case of classical conditioning which I found hilarious, though it's regarding releasing sexual tension over certain material, and then punishing them for getting excited over non-acceptable sexual images.

It's an interesting field since there's the belief that "I was born gay." If that's the case Can't pedophiles argue they were born that way? Sure being gay isn't a crime, (in most countries it's been decriminalised) but is pedophilia the same? And if it's possible to condition pedophiles out of pedophilia, is it possible to condition gays to be heterosexual? Or even condition heterosexuals to become homosexuals/bisexuals? :/

Anyway, stories don't seem to be very abundant online, there's probably a few pay sites which have the material up, But if you think about it. It's unlikely for a rapist to put his name up on the internet and tell us how he was rehabilitated. Is this an assignment or just an area of interest for you?

[FionordeQuester]

It's simply an area of interest.

[eclipse]

It's an interesting field since there's the belief that "I was born gay." If that's the case Can't pedophiles argue they were born that way? Sure being gay isn't a crime, (in most countries it's been decriminalised) but is pedophilia the same? And if it's possible to condition pedophiles out of pedophilia, is it possible to condition gays to be heterosexual? Or even condition heterosexuals to become homosexuals/bisexuals? :/

*deep breath*

There's a big difference between finding children attractive and getting yourself thrown in jail for acting upon it. The mind of a child has not fully developed, and abusing the trust of a person (especially a child) leaves all sorts of ugly psychological scars that usually lead to unpleasant things. With homosexuality, the other party is of the same gender, but is most likely an adult who can fully comprehend what's going on and why. That's why there's a huge battle about gay marriage, and not a peep about adults marrying children.

Some pedophiles are perfectly content with anime-style hentai involving kids. Others want to see actual children engaged in such things (but wouldn't dream of harming a child IRL). Others want to be the ones doing it, and to hell with the future consequences. Where does society draw the line between attraction to children and a twisted power play?

Whether the "reformed" pedophiles have truly changed their sexual preference or have learned to better hide it is what I'd like to know.

[Esau of Isaac]

It's an interesting field since there's the belief that "I was born gay." If that's the case Can't pedophiles argue they were born that way? Sure being gay isn't a crime, (in most countries it's been decriminalised) but is pedophilia the same? And if it's possible to condition pedophiles out of pedophilia, is it possible to condition gays to be heterosexual? Or even condition heterosexuals to become homosexuals/bisexuals? :/

You'd be surprised how often people try to dodge this by stating that pedophilia is just a fetish, and thus is unlike heterosexuality and homosexuality. I would say that pedophilia probably has some part to do with genetics. But I can't say whether nature or nurture is the sole cause, or even the largest cause. Pedophiles could argue that they were born that way, but they'd be at the least hard-pressed to prove it.

Personally, at least when it comes to sexual preferences and/or fetishes, I don't think someone should ever face mandate to change them. Depending on what they are, they may have to face the facts that their preferences are illegal to act upon. But to attempt to change them? Nah, I don't think that's a particularly good thing.

[Kanami]

*deep breath*

There's a big difference between finding children attractive and getting yourself thrown in jail for acting upon it. The mind of a child has not fully developed, and abusing the trust of a person (especially a child) leaves all sorts of ugly psychological scars that usually lead to unpleasant things. With homosexuality, the other party is of the same gender, but is most likely an adult who can fully comprehend what's going on and why. That's why there's a huge battle about gay marriage, and not a peep about adults marrying children.

Some pedophiles are perfectly content with anime-style hentai involving kids. Others want to see actual children engaged in such things (but wouldn't dream of harming a child IRL). Others want to be the ones doing it, and to hell with the future consequences. Where does society draw the line between attraction to children and a twisted power play?

Whether the "reformed" pedophiles have truly changed their sexual preference or have learned to better hide it is what I'd like to know.

Valid points but not the thing I was getting at. Pedophilia being a crime and morally wrong isn't important to the argument. And by no means am I trying to legalized/validate it.

What I'm saying is, if you can condition someones sexual attraction to something else, can't that be used on heterosexuals to term them homosexual? If it's possible to turn a pedophile into a non-pedophile.

Consent isn't an issue since I'm not interested in the criminal or moral issues, just the psychological perspective of the pedophile in this specific case.

Of course, this entire thing falls apart if it's not possible to change a pedophile. (As you said they could just be better at hiding it) Which makes me wonder how useful rehabilitation really is.

You'd be surprised how often people try to dodge this by stating that pedophilia is just a fetish, and thus is unlike heterosexuality and homosexuality. I would say that pedophilia probably has some part to do with genetics. But I can't say whether nature or nurture is the sole cause, or even the largest cause. Pedophiles could argue that they were born that way, but they'd be at the least hard-pressed to prove it.

Personally, at least when it comes to sexual preferences and/or fetishes, I don't think someone should ever face mandate to change them. Depending on what they are, they may have to face the facts that their preferences are illegal to act upon. But to attempt to change them? Nah, I don't think that's a particularly good thing.

Agree with all points, but reading about classical conditioning made me wonder, if it's possible to change things like sexuality (disregard morals). Since I conditioning can make me scared of apples by making me associate apples with being kicked(pain). (If done effectively enough times).

As for homosexuality/pedophilia being genetic. I'm still uncertain about that one, still waiting for them to find the genetic string which makes someone homosexual:p

Edited October 15, 2010 by Kanami