Lyn Mode question

[Catt]

Hi guys, I joined the forums just to ask this question: am I right in thinking that the maximum tactician points (stars next to tactician name in Battle History) for LNM and LHM are both 60? Seeing as there are 12 chapters including 7x and the Prologue, and 12x5=60?

I only ask because I can't seem to get near that number and well, I thought it would be easy for Lyn mode. I can only manage 54 points for LNM and around 52 for LHM. Has anyone got the full 60, assuming that is the maximum?

[Tables]

60 stars should indeed be the maximum. As for why it seems difficult to attain... I don't know. It might be worth trying to go through and track what happens in terms of exp, funds, turns and potentially combat, and see what falls short and when.

[Catt]

Yeah, I think I'll try that next playthrough. Possibly Iast time I got lazy and took too long on chapter 10, but in terms of everything else I thought I was on top of things. :/ I went through each chapter checking my progress against the tables.

[Paperblade]

Did you make sure not to use the statups and promotion items (Angelic Robe, Energy Ring, Knight Crest)? They hit your Funds pretty hard.

[Catt]

Yep, although I did use the Knight Crest on Normal. My assets in LNM was 38801G, which was enough to get 5 stars in funds. Wait, are the funds requirements for each chapter cumulative? Maybe I overlooked that for a couple of chapters, although they're quite lenient targets either way.

[VincentASM]

Yeah, the Funds requirements are cumulative. It might not seem that way at first glance since the numbers generally seem to increase by chapter.

[Catt]

Sigh...well, I tried again, taking stock of everything, and still only managed 57 points. At most I screwed up 3 chapters, and there's no point trying to go back when I don't know what's going wrong.

Here's my log if anyone's interested (numbers in brackets are requirements):

Lyn Mode Normal

Prologue

Funds: 890 - 83.96% (1060)

EXP: 123 (100)

Tactics: 5 turns (5)

Combat: 4 battles, 2 KOs - 50%

CH 1

Funds: 2750 - 91.66% (3000)

EXP: 241 (200)

Tactics: 6 turns (7)

Combat: 12 battles, 5 KOs - 41.66% (Required RNG abuse so Lyn would crit Zugu)

CH 2

Funds: 2900 - 87.87% (3300)

EXP: 275 (200)

Tactics: 7 turns (7)

Combat: 11 battles, 6 KOs - 54.54%

CH 3

Funds: 5855 - 88.84% (6590)

EXP: 379 (300)

Tactics: 5 turns (7)

Combat: 17 battles, 9 KOs - 52.94%

CH 4

Funds: 6336 - 92.36% (6860)

EXP: 706 (450)

Tactics: 8 turns (8)

Combat: 35 battles, 21 KOs - 60% (I lost count but it was around this)

CH 5

Funds: 8134 - 97.76% (8320)

EXP: 342 (250)

Tactics: 4 turns (4)

Combat: 14 battles, 7 KOs - 50%

CH 6

Funds: 25712 - 97.57% (26350) (Assuming that the 5k Rath gives Lyn counts)

EXP: 284 (250)

Tactics: 4 turns (7)

Combat: 13 battles, 8 KOs - 61.53%

CH 7

Funds: 27030 - 94.7% (28540)

EXP: 429 (350)

Tactics: 5 turns (6)

Combat: 22 battles, 11 KOs - 50%

CH 7x

Funds: 29570 - 93.01% (31790)

EXP: 563 (450)

Tactics: 7 turns (7)

Combat: 28 battles, 15 KOs - 53.57% (Again, lost count, it was around this)

CH 8

Funds: 27734 - 82.56% (33590)

EXP: 528 (500)

Tactics: 6 turns (7)

Combat: 26 battles, 18 KOs - 69.23% (I swear I won't lose count next chapter)

CH 9

Funds: 32746 - 93.52% (35020)

EXP: 652 (650)

Tactics: 8 turns (8)

Combat: 34 battles, 21 KOs - 61.76%

CH 10

Funds: 40271 - 93.6% (43020)

EXP: 584 (450)

Tactics: 11 turns (12)

Combat: 30 battles, 17 KOs - 56.66%

[Tables]

Hm.

That does look like you should have 60* to me. Perhaps the funds per chapter is what actually matters? As in it's not cumulative but instead compares the funds you earnt to the funds ranking (so subtract each missions funds from the funds you earnt the chapter before, and compare to the chapters base funds)

[VincentASM]

Oh yeah, that would make sense. For some reason, I was thinking of the endgame rankings when I made my reply. For Tactician points, I'm pretty sure you'll need to watch the funds per chapter as I Eat Tables mentioned.

I think Nitrodon mentioned something about the Funds requirements for Tactician points, I should see if I can find it in case it was important.

57 is still quite a marked improvement though, from 52-54. I would be very surprised now if the full 60 cannot be achieved.

Actually, I did some quick calculations on your assets per chapter and noticed that, assuming I haven't done anything wrong, you've failed the 5 Star Funds requirement for 4 chapters and not the 3 that I would have expected.

Chapter Assets  Per Ch  Funds   80%     Assets per Ch >= 80% Funds?
P	890	890	1060	848	Yes
1	2750	1860	1940	1552	Yes
2	2900	150	300	240	No
3	5855	2955	3290	2632	Yes
4	6336	481	270	216	Yes
5	8134	1798	1460	1168	Yes
6	25712	17578	18030	14424	Yes
7	27030	1318	2190	1752	No
7x	29570	2540	3250	2600	No
8	27734	-1836	1800	1440	No
9	32746	5012	1430	1144	Yes
10	40271	7525	8000	6400	Yes

Ch 7x is where your Assets per chapter almost reaches the boundary.

[Narga_Rocks]

Prologue

Funds: 890 - 83.96% (1060)

CH 1

Funds: 2750 - 91.66% (3000)

2750 - 890 = 1860

is this NM? Hm doesn't have 3000 as a requirement at this point. Anyway, 1940.

1860/1940 = 95.8%

CH 2

Funds: 2900 - 87.87% (3300)

2900 - 2750 = 150

requirement is 300.

50%. This would be your first failure.

CH 3

Funds: 5855 - 88.84% (6590)

5855 = 2900 = 2955

3290 req.

2955 / 3290 = 89.8%

CH 4

Funds: 6336 - 92.36% (6860)

Actually, your % went up, so I won't bother calculating. Obviously >80% for this chapter.

CH 5

Funds: 8134 - 97.76% (8320)

See above.

CH 6

Funds: 25712 - 97.57% (26350) (Assuming that the 5k Rath gives Lyn counts)

25712 - 8134 = 17578

18030 req

well over 90%

CH 7

Funds: 27030 - 94.7% (28540)

27030 - 25712 = 1318

2190 req.

60%. Failure #2.

CH 7x

Funds: 29570 - 93.01% (31790)

29570 - 27030 = 2540

Again, this HM or NM? Looks like you went with the NM requirement, so I'll assume.

2540/3250 = 78%

CH 8

Funds: 27734 - 82.56% (33590)

Clearly under 80%, given how you went down.

CH 9

Funds: 32746 - 93.52% (35020)

% went up and average was already over 80.

CH 10

Funds: 40271 - 93.6% (43020)

ditto.

Strange. There's a problem with this theory in that you should have lost 4 stars rather than just 3.

grrr, ninja'd by Vincent

[VincentASM]

I found Nitrodon's comments on Tactician points:

I just checked, and all five ranks are calculated for the individual chapter. The survival rank thresholds are 1/2/3/4 instead of 1/2/4/6, but the other thresholds are exactly the same, except that they only consider numbers from that specific chapter. Funds uses the difference between the total funds before and after the chapter. Funds, experience, and tactics compare to the thresholds based on the individual chapter rather than the total of all chapters.

So, calculating the Funds score for Tactician points should work as we've recently established.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, calculating the Funds score for Tactician points should work as we've recently established.

I'm guessing that the key for why he lost 3 stars instead of 4 is timing. Probably somewhere between chapter 7, 7x, and 8 the game records a count of your funds at a point he didn't expect. Meaning maybe chapter 7 was even worse than he thought which allowed 7x to be >80%. Or 7x was worse than he thought which allowed chapter 8 to be >80%. Less likely is that chapter 7 was better than he thought and thus >80% and 7x was even worse. Whatever the case, it would probably be helpful for anyone trying to achieve 60 stars if we could know precisely at what point the game records your funds amount so that we'd know what the windows are in which you need to earn that much money.

Also, it seems possible to achieve 60 stars on LNM. Being forced to eat 10000 gold all at once instead of spaced over multiple chapters means you need to somehow have a surplus of 10000 all inside one little window. Fortunately, Wallace shows up in chapter 9 and the requirement for the star in chapter 9 is only 1144. You get 1430 worth of items not including the Knight Crest (most of these come from Wallace's inventory), so just virtually Lyn solo with just a little help and it should work as long as he promotes in chapter 9 (is that when he's forced in LNM?).

Frankly, I have no idea how he went up 5012 from chapter 8 to chapter 9. Using the Knight Crest would knock him down to a 1430 increase at the most. And if he didn't use it in this chapter and instead waited till the next one, somehow he'd need to have used up 6418 worth of other items and not the Knight Crest. Beyond that, I have no idea how he would have used up 3636 Gold in one chapter (chapter 8). You get the 1800 cost Lancereaver and he managed to go down by 1836, hence used up 3636 somehow. I don't think that's even possible. Maybe there was a miscalculation after he finished chapter 8 when he was trying to figure out his funds. It's the only explanation I can think of for the apparent impossibility of these figures. Hence, he probably got the star for chapter 8 and the ones he missed are 2, 7, 7x.

Anyway, in theory it should be possible to achieve 60 stars in LHM and use the robe. Not the energy drop, since that appears in chapter 10 and is your only income. But since they don't appear to count the Knight Crest in your earnings, you don't need to keep 8000 (80% of 10000) in that chapter. If you don't use the Crest you should be able to use the Robe. Just have to use it in chapter 8.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Catt]

Well, its entirely possible I miscalculated, since I rushed the whole thing. For example, my battle history puts my final Assets at 40001, 270 less than I thought. If I try this again I'm definately going to take it two chapters a day to stop getting confused.

The only thing I can think to do now is to avoid battles to not use up weaponry. Avoid using Lucius and Serra at all, and Erk only when necessery. Try to use Dorcas more since he's cost effective. Also, if I hadn't killed everything in chapter 4 the EXP ranks would've been easier to get in later chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, its entirely possible I miscalculated, since I rushed the whole thing. For example, my battle history puts my final Assets at 40001, 270 less than I thought. If I try this again I'm definately going to take it two chapters a day to stop getting confused.

The only thing I can think to do now is to avoid battles to not use up weaponry. Avoid using Lucius and Serra at all, and Erk only when necessery. Try to use Dorcas more since he's cost effective. Also, if I hadn't killed everything in chapter 4 the EXP ranks would've been easier to get in later chapters.

Well, you did all the other things well enough. I think only the funds rank has an issue.

Anyway, Lyn's sword should probably be broken or nearly broken by the end of chapter 10. Never ever use a vulnerary if you can help it. And Serra's Heal staff costs just 20 per use. A vulnerary costs 100 per use. If you absolutely must heal, use Serra. That aside, you might still need her for the exp rank sometimes. Not sure. Probably want to have the cavs use lances even on axe enemies when it won't force you to heal. And keep in mind the cost per use of all your items and the amount of funds you need to not use in each window. And steal whatever isn't bolted down. Lockpick is more expensive per use than a door key. Lockpick is 1200 / 15 = 80 per use. Door Key is only 50.

How many uses were left on Lyn's sword in your other playthrough?

And chapter 2 is going to be a pain. You only get 300 gold in that chapter (boss drops vulnerary), and thus you can't use any more than 60. Iron Swords cost 10 per use, Iron Lances cost 8 per use. Boss has 20 hp and 5 def (throne). Sain probably has 8 or 9 str now, and Iron Lance has 8 mt on swords. Fortunately, he 2HKOs even without gaining str.

You can get 5 Iron Lance uses and 2 Iron Sword uses. If the boss uses his vulnerary, you are toast. That aside, you could instead use more sword uses, but then you only get 6 weapon uses instead of 7. Even 3 x 10 = 30 means 30/8 = 3.75 and you can't get a 4th use. It takes Sain two attacks to tear down the wall. You pretty much have to do this since otherwise Lyn is going to go sword crazy on all those bandits and you are sunk. That leaves 3 lance uses and 2 sword uses. Or 4 and 1, or 5 and 0. Only Sain can 2HKO Bandits or the boss, so you probably want him doing that.

Sain + Kent can KO the first bandit with lances. If they hit. Then take out the wall. That's 2 more. 4 uses gone. Takes 2 uses to KO the boss. That's 6 uses gone. Then there's another bandit that might attack. You'll probably need to unequip some people (doesn't really exist in fe7 so you basically have to trade away their weapons) and maybe use them to draw attacks. You need 200 exp all at the same time, though. I managed to win with 6 Iron Lance uses but only got 132 exp. Frankly, I think you need to force crits at 2% or 3% in order to get enough exp without using more than 7 weapon uses. At least, considering it takes at least 2 weapon uses to kill anything and you are forced to bash down the wall. That leaves a maximum of 5 weapon uses to kill probably 4 enemies since I think even if I manage to force the crit to allow me to kill another enemy I don't think I'll reach anywhere near 200 exp. Actually, I'm not even certain that two more kills will do it when you consider that you can't allow yourself the hit exp. I can seize on turn 5, though, and the 5* rank is turn 7. There are 3 enemies nearby, so I can get another 6 exp from just letting them attack and hopefully not dying. Still only 138 out of 200.

Um, advice from anyone that has ever managed to get exp and tactics and funds for chapter 2? You can't crit walls (I think) so you are basically stuck forcing all 5 weapon uses to crit with 2 or 3 % crit. Which is insane.

After chapter 2 you can simply rely more heavily on Mani Katti when you are tight for funds in any given chapter. Like 7x where you got really close.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Tables]

I think that might be the only way, Narga. If there's nothing else in the chapter what else can you do? In fact, it's probably worth calculating if 4 crits and a hit might be enough or not. I assume since he got 275 exp that 4 kills including the boss should do, perhaps even 3.

Hmm...

[spoiler=Hypotheticals]2: Bandit

2: Wall

2: Glass

Gave about 132 exp. That's roughly (no forumulae used so figures a little off) 98 exp from Glass, 34 exp from Bandits. Suppose hitting gives 10 exp

2: Bandit

2: Wall

2: Glass

1: Bandit (hit)

Gives about 142. Clearly not enough.

2: Bandit

2: Wall

2: Glass

1: Bandit (kill)

Is about 166 exp. Still not quite enough.

1: Bandit

2: Wall

2: Glass

1: Bandit (kill)

1: Bandit (kill)

Is about 200 exp which is exactly enough, but needs 3 criticals. Awesome.

Calculations tell me you need 3 criticals and you can just about complete the chapter, get 200 exp and spend less than 60 gold. But it's VERY close as you might expect. You might also need to take a few extra hits for a few more points of exp before seizing since I estimated vaguely.

[Balcerzak]

Assumption: all of your units are level one and do not increase in level during the chapter.

Fact 1: Glass gives 77 EXP to a level one opponent.

Fact 2: There are 3 Lv 1 Bandits and 2 Lv 2 Bandits.

Assumption: The stationary Lv 2 Bandit in the lower right is hard to reach and the other bandits will be killed

Fact 3: Lv 1 Bandits yield 30 EXP, Lv 2 yield 33.

Conclusion: Killing 3 Lv 1 Bandits, 1 Lv 2 Bandit, and Glass is exactly 200 EXP.

Further conclusion: Killing 5 opponents requires all 5 weapon uses (after the wall's alloted 2) to be crits.

Realistic scenario involves one or more of your dudes leveling midchapter, or already being higher than level 1, and thus losing out on at least 3 EXP due to experience formula, requiring unarmed tanking to make up the difference, or trying to avoid one of the mobile Lv 1 bandits in lieu of the Lv 2 bandit.

Without going through the math and figuring out level requirements incurred by clearing chapters 1 and 2 at full tactician stars, I'm going to just go ahead and say that it's impossible to meet both funds and experience in this chapter.

[Tables]

Oh, wow, I was way off. Next time I use formulae .

Now, I have one more question... since I don't remember the details, is it possible (or feasible) to avoid breaking that wall, and if so, could you still make tactics?

[Catt]

Well, you did all the other things well enough. I think only the funds rank has an issue.

Anyway, Lyn's sword should probably be broken or nearly broken by the end of chapter 10. Never ever use a vulnerary if you can help it. And Serra's Heal staff costs just 20 per use. A vulnerary costs 100 per use. If you absolutely must heal, use Serra. That aside, you might still need her for the exp rank sometimes. Not sure. Probably want to have the cavs use lances even on axe enemies when it won't force you to heal. And keep in mind the cost per use of all your items and the amount of funds you need to not use in each window. And steal whatever isn't bolted down. Lockpick is more expensive per use than a door key. Lockpick is 1200 / 15 = 80 per use. Door Key is only 50.

How many uses were left on Lyn's sword in your other playthrough?

I had 9 uses of the Mani Katti left. Both my lockpicks had 12 uses left, one of which I could've avoided. Also, I've been miscalculating Iron Lances, I thought they were 10 per use.

Regarding what Balcerzak said, both Kent and Sain were level 1 on that chapter, Lyn had just reached level 4. I don't think I let her do more than weaken one enemy, the cavaliers got all the kills. By the end they were at 2.81 and 2.47. But yeah, that funds rank is really harsh. Maybe it is practically impossible.

[Catt]

Tried it again, and got them. Whoever programmed the chapter 2 requirements was asleep at the job. 9 is a bitch also, maybe even worse than 2. The rest range from easy to middling - 10 is amazingly easy after 9. I don't think I'll have an urge to play FE for a long while after this.

[Narga_Rocks]

Tried it again, and got them. Whoever programmed the chapter 2 requirements was asleep at the job. 9 is a bitch also, maybe even worse than 2. The rest range from easy to middling - 10 is amazingly easy after 9. I don't think I'll have an urge to play FE for a long while after this.

Well, chapter 2 only has one item dropped, and it's cheap. Whoever made the exp rank, though, clearly wasn't paying attention to the requirement for the funds rank.

I suppose there are two ways to fix this

1: make the exp rank low enough that 5 weapon uses against enemies can achieve the exp rank without needing crits.

2: have some bandit drop another vulnerary. Then you'd have 600 Gold gained, and the funds requirement would only be 480. 120 = 15 lance uses. You might even be able to use Lyn a bit. 10 lance uses + 4 sword uses. But instead, they did it this way.

Did you really force crits in chapter 2 just to make it work? (or did you find some other way to manage the exp rank and funds rank at the same time?)

Anyway, Congratulations. That's great! And I completely understand wanting to stay away from fe after this.

[Catt]

Yeah, I had to get 5 crits in a row. I managed to keep both cavaliers at level 1 for all but one of the enemies, so they'd get the maximum exp. A level 2 Sain killed the level 2 Brigand and lost out on 3 exp, but that was remedied by having an unarmed Kent take three hits. In other words you'd never get 5 stars by playing normally.

[Tables]

That's... seriously impressive. What was their crit rate? It can't have been much more than 2-3%. Did you just restart until it worked, or use some method to burn and find RNGs?

[Toothache]

RNG abuse is likely the only way people will manage this, without some insane luck. I might make a TAS of maximum tactician Lyn mode just for demonstration purposes. Eliwood/Hector modes are much easier under regular conditions.

[Catt]

I used save-states and the pathfinding movement trick to cycle through RNs. Their crit rate was either 2 or 3%. It didn't take as long as you might think, though I was helped by Sain getting his first critical naturally.

Chapter 2 at least has a simple setup, so its just a matter of finding the criticals. Chapter 9 was more troublesome because you can only use up 286G, but have to 650exp as well. Most of my units by that point were at level 5 or 6 and they weren't gaining enough exp from kills. I had to basically make Matthew get two kills a turn (using Nils) both of which had to be criticals because his strength was low and I couldn't waste his iron sword. Add to that enemies that are allowed to respawn and move in the same turn and things got very complicated.

[Narga_Rocks]

Chapter 2 at least has a simple setup, so its just a matter of finding the criticals. Chapter 9 was more troublesome because you can only use up 286G, but have to 650exp as well. Most of my units by that point were at level 5 or 6 and they weren't gaining enough exp from kills. I had to basically make Matthew get two kills a turn (using Nils) both of which had to be criticals because his strength was low and I couldn't waste his iron sword. Add to that enemies that are allowed to respawn and move in the same turn and things got very complicated.

Well, chapter 9 should be easier on HM where you don't have to use the Knight Crest. Even if the 10000 Gold is now considered part of the earned funds (the ranking tables in the fe7 section don't indicate this to be true) you'd still have 2286 gold that you can burn through instead of 286. And if the 10000 Gold isn't part of the funds the game tallies (and thus your requirement is still 1144 instead of 9144) then it is extremely easy. The funds rank, that is. Not sure how hard the exp rank + tactics rank at the same time is.

But yeah, that sounds much worse since the strategy for chapter 2 is pretty simplistic, it's just the forcing crits that is a pain.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Narga_Rocks