Dorothy

[Desro]

Dorothy has great power and balance in her stats, she will definitely be useful if trained, especially if your the type of person who knows how to correctly use archers (set them up so they do get attacked from a range on enemy phase). Dorothy can still be useful on Sacae, but as everyone else stated, the Nomads will function better there.

Some people can't use archers for the life of them, they are the people who will say "they are a bow user and therefore they are crap." You also can't expect a Sniper go off and solo half a map like a Hero can, but that doesn't mean they are bad units to use. They will also be very useful in indoor chapters (or anywhere there is a wall to fire over), and can take down series of enemies though the walls, even on EP.

But actually having several good bow users in FE6 will make you much better off. 2 Killer Bows are available early on, and it's very helpful to have a unit or so that can use them. Also, Wyverns become the most dangerous enemy units for a good part of the game. To combat that, the bow users in this game are some of the best in the series (except Wolt). I've played the game quite a few times, and tend to use archers quite a bit when I play any Fire Emblem. I've used just about all the bowusers in this game so I figured I'd lend my opinion on them:

Archer/Snipers:

Wolt: Usable, but surpassed by everyone else. He has terrible bases and is not worth the effort. Igrene sets the bar pretty high and Wolt can't really beat her unless he is raised 20/20 and still you mostly just end up with Igrene with good HP.

Dorothy: Focuses on strength and overall balance. Easily one of the best bow users (with the worst portrait). Her stats will surpass Igrene's and she's worth every bit of training you put into her.

Klein: Terrible bases, but they are fixed with a good bonus in HM. His growths are not bad at all, especially for a prepromote.

Igrene: Great stat bases (except terrible HP). Even most of Klein's HM bases do not surpass her starting stats. Her growth rates aren't as amazing, so Klein will eventually surpass her in HM. In NM, Klein's stats never actually surpass Igrene's (seriously look at the stat charts).

Nomads/Troopers:

Sue: Focuses on Skill, Speed, and Luck. She has mobility, ends up with the 2nd best evasion in the game (in NM), consistently doubles everything though the game even on HM, and her high skill gives her a nice boost to her critical hit which will become her selling factor. Her HP is low, and her strength can be disappointing, but if her Strength comes out favorably she will be one of your best characters. Very underrated, she is actually quite good.

Shin: Good starting stats and growths. Less Skill and Speed than Sue but more Strength and HP. Very much Dorothy on a horse, so he adds mobility. In HM, the bonuses he gets make him absolutely amazing and he outshines Sue and every other Bow user easily.

Dayan: Your typical replacement prepromote, with a high level and lowish starting stat. Terrible growths. Not typically used under normal circumstances, but he's not totally useless with a Speed base of 20. He is still the worst character listed here.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Desro

[Anouleth]

Some people can't use archers for the life of them, they are the people who will say "they are a bow user and therefore they are crap." You also can't expect a Sniper go off and solo half a map like a Hero can, but that doesn't mean they are bad units to use. They will also be very useful in indoor chapters (or anywhere there is a wall to fire over), and can take down series of enemies though the walls, even on EP.

It's not that they don't know how to use archers. It's very easy to use archers. But it is difficult for Archers to be a useful part of an enemy phase playthrough when they cannot back themselves up with good base stats, since they will struggle to gain experience fast.

But actually having several good bow users in FE6 will make you much better off. 2 Killer Bows are available early on, and it's very helpful to have a unit or so that can use them. Also, Wyverns become the most dangerous enemy units for a good part of the game. To combat that, the bow users in this game are some of the best in the series (except Wolt). I've played the game quite a few times, and tend to use archers quite a bit when I play any Fire Emblem. I've used just about all the bowusers in this game so I figured I'd lend my opinion on them:

The problem is that there are many alternative ways to deal with Wyverns, and many units can deal with them on enemy phase. Magic users, and anyone who can use Wyrmslayers, and anyone who can use an S-Rank weapon.

[Desro]

It's not that they don't know how to use archers. It's very easy to use archers. But it is difficult for Archers to be a useful part of an enemy phase playthrough when they cannot back themselves up with good base stats, since they will struggle to gain experience fast.

That's pretty much what I meant about people not being able to use them, if you think ahead and use them strategically they can be used in a way that they do play an active role in EP. Pretty much all the arches will have lowish defense, so you can reliably think the enemies will go after them and plan accordingly (place them just inside the range of mages and other units with a ranged attack). As mentioned before, it's easier in indoor chapters. And bowmen are still useful in outdoor chapters because that is when Wyverns show up.

The problem is that there are many alternative ways to deal with Wyverns, and many units can deal with them on enemy phase. Magic users, and anyone who can use Wyrmslayers, and anyone who can use an S-Rank weapon.

You can only obtain 3 Wymslayers in one playthough and the S-Rank weapons only have 20 uses each and should be saved for killing only Mamkutes and the last several bosses. Goodluck relying on those alone given the shear number of Wyverns encounter in the game. Magic is the only viable alternative you listed, and only Aircalibur (and S-Ranked tomes) will actually match the damage that a Bow user can deal. Lilina and Lugh simply can't hold up on a HM EP ambush of wyverns, so you probably would hope not to have them face them on EP. Killer Weapons are the only other viable option, and they your just hoping the RNG goes your way with evasion and criticals. Bowmen are a sure bet way to 2HKO Wyverns in HM that no other unit less speed blessed Lilina or Magic blessed Lugh can do.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Desro

[Anouleth]

That's pretty much what I meant about people not being able to use them, if you think ahead and use them strategically they can be used in a way that they do play an active role in EP.

No, you don't get my point. These people do understand how to use Archers in that way, they just appreciate that it's generally not worthwhile. Think about it this way, you can use an Archer, which can have enemy phase in a specific type of situation which isn't always around, or you can use another type of unit, who can always have enemy phase and will usually have better stats as well and doesn't have to be placed on the exact edge of their range (which you might not want to do for whatever reason).

You can only obtain 3 Wymslayers in one playthough and the S-Rank weapons only have 20 uses each and should be saved for killing only Mamkutes and the last several bosses. Goodluck relying on those alone given the shear number of Wyverns encounter in the game. Magic is the only viable alternative you listed, and only Aircalibur (and S-Ranked tomes) will actually match the damage that a Bow user can deal. Lilina and Lugh simply can't hold up on a HM EP ambush of wyverns, so you probably would hope not to have them face them on EP. Killer Weapons are the only other viable option, and they your just hoping the RNG goes your way with evasion and criticals. Bowmen are a sure bet way to 2HKO Wyverns in HM that no other unit less speed blessed Lilina or Magic blessed Lugh can do.

There is not much else to do with Wyrmslayers and S Rank weapons. And even using them quite liberally there is plenty to go around.

None of the Archers will be fast enough to double or 2HKO the Chapter 7 Wyverns, and there are only two and your archers will suck against every other unit in the chapter. Silver Lance Zealot or Marcus are much better ways to deal with them. You don't fight wyverns again until Chapter 13, but by that point, you have Klein and Shin and a Wyrmslayer and Durandal. It's true that Durandal can also be used against bosses, but the only bosses I can think that really require an S Rank weapon are Aine, Narshen, and maybe Fraer, and since they will all be OHKOed or close enough for someone else to finish, that's only 3 uses out of the 160 you're given. There are plenty left over for Wyverns. Aircalibur is buyable, Wyrmslayers themselves eventually become buyable. And while killers do not reliably kill enemies, they do ensure that about half the Wyverns you encounter will be taken care of on enemy phase.

In addition, while you fight wyvern enemies somewhat continuously throughout the game, there are never very many until Chapter 21, only 25 that need to be fought over the course of the entire game. And most of them appear after Klein and Shin show up, who are fine units. Even once you get to Chapter 21, you will also have Igrene and possibly Dayan. There is no need to train Wolt and Dorothy, who are generally awful, just so they can deal with fliers, when there you have numerous better alternatives for doing so.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Black★Star

[dondon151]

You can only obtain 3 Wymslayers in one playthough and the S-Rank weapons only have 20 uses each and should be saved for killing only Mamkutes and the last several bosses. Goodluck relying on those alone given the shear number of Wyverns encounter in the game.

Easy enough. I didn't have any Armads users and still had no trouble allocating the weapon uses.

Klein and Igrene are much better sniper options to use in a pinch. Sue and Shin are superior growth units in a superior class. There's no reason to use Dorothy or Wolt.

Edited May 4, 2011 by dondon151

[Desro]

My argument has just been that being a bowman in general does not disqualify a character from being a worthwhile part of the team. I'm not particularly trying to sell Dorothy, I was just generally saying that the bowmen in this game are easily to use (Wolt is the exception), especially to those people who tend to use bowmen effectively. Bowmen aren't as difficult to use as you are indicating, unless someone is embarking on a strict speed challenge, and even then they can be put to use with careful planning (and actually Sue played an essential role in my recent Draft).

So if you find Shin and Klein acceptable to use and train so I don't know why your disagreeing with me, you must have found a way to effectively use and level them. If you take care of your archer there levels wont fall behind in experience and neither will their stats. The player isn't using their bowmen correctly if that is the case. I don't know why you use Klein if you aren't getting him a significant amount of level ups. Igrene's base stats are better than Klein best HM stats, and his stats don't surpass her's until he's about level 10 promoted (with 11A hard mode bonuses). It contradicts what you just said about your archer falling behind in experience and stats. If you're using him you must have found a way to use him effectively to gain experience.

But honestly, I don't train Dorothy myself; I'm not drawn towards her character. Her stats are very acceptable, and she becomes a great party member. Her speed is an issue early on. I prefer to use Sue, Shin and Igrene. Somebody definitely should be using those Killer Bows you get early on; and my argument is for bowmen in general, and nobody stinks just because they are a bowman, and I just dislike seeing people comment that someone is a bad character just because they are an archer.

As for the S-Ranked weapons, it really depends on your situation. If you trying to beat C24 on HM as quickly as possible, you will want those S-Ranked weapons intact as much as possible. If you can leisurely strole though that chapter, you can fight the Mamkutes with Roy (in a speed run, he will be focused on capturing the thrones), Wyrmslayers, Magic and whatever you happen to have left for S-Ranked weapons. It also depends on what you plan on using Hammerne on which can really help make S-Ranked weapons more functional, or in a speed run, it will give you extra uses of the Warp Staff.

Also I think your wrong about Wyrmslayers becoming buyable. Where? Not in FE6 as far as I know.

[dondon151]

My argument has just been that being a bowman in general does not disqualify a character from being a worthwhile part of the team.

You're right, it doesn't. Having terrible stats and requiring significant EXP input to function do disqualify a character from being a worthwhile part of a team.

I'm not particularly trying to sell Dorothy, I was just generally saying that the bowmen in this game are easily to use (Wolt is the exception), especially to those people who tend to use bowmen effectively. Bowmen aren't as difficult to use as you are indicating, unless someone is embarking on a strict speed challenge, and even then they can be put to use with careful planning (and actually Sue played an essential role in my recent Draft).

No one is contending that they are "difficult" to use. Please learn that any sort of discussion regarding the utility of a character assumes a "speed challenge" environment. I don't have a clue as to what you mean when you refer to "effective" use of bowmen, because from what I can plainly tell from your arguments, you are providing model examples of ineffective use.

So if you find Shin and Klein acceptable to use and train so I don't know why your disagreeing with me, you must have found a way to effectively use and level them. If you take care of your archer there levels wont fall behind in experience and neither will their stats. The player isn't using their bowmen correctly if that is the case.

Shin has high base stats and low base level, which offsets the characteristic low EXP gain of archer syndrome. He has high base spd and consistently outputs more damage than Dorothy; he has a horse and is not only able to engage in combat every turn, but can move other units faster through the map. I don't level Klein at all.

I don't know why you use Klein if you aren't getting him a significant amount of level ups. Igrene's base stats are better than Klein best HM stats, and his stats don't surpass her's until he's about level 10 promoted (with 11A hard mode bonuses). It contradicts what you just said about your archer falling behind in experience and stats. If you're using him you must have found a way to use him effectively to gain experience.

Klein starts with A bows; Igrene starts with B bows. Klein joins roughly 5 maps earlier than Igrene. Klein has fast supports with Clarine and Tate while Igrene has no viable supports to speak of. You obviously don't know me well enough if you bother to assume that I consider growth rates when using characters. The beauty of using Klein is that you don't need to feed him any EXP whatsoever to make him useful. This is what we consider "effective" use of bowmen. Why put up with training a failure like Dorothy when we already get a unit that can pluck wyverns out of the sky (in one shot, no less) and ORKO nomads like training targets at a shooting gallery?

Edited May 4, 2011 by dondon151

[Desro]

The opening post seemed like someone just asking if Dorothy was worth while to mix things up and see if Dorothy did come out to be a good character in casual play (not assuming a speed run). She does come out to be a good character in regular play and there is plenty of time to train her. If someone was interested in training her, they shouldn't hold back. She's not disappointing. But yea, in a speed run, I'd agree with everyone else: don't bother.

Dorothy still does has the potential to overcome Klein if fully trained and that is fact. I don't see why your saying she has terrible stats, because she doesn't, she just comes at level 3 and has AS problems at first. Those are her issues, not her stats. I'm sure everyone is also assuming HM, because NM Klein is terrible. HM Klein will do just fine, and Dorothy will be more difficult to train there, but it's still very possible. And yes, Igrene's B in bow is bad for that point in the game and her support options aren't as useful. Of course her stats are better if you haven't put any effort to train up Klein, and if you are assuming a speed run, you'll probably dump your Sniper for endgame to take Shin or Sue who will have the necessary S in bows. The fact that she can't use the Silver Bow initially could turn people off.

I appreciate you opinion but hold the attitude.

[dondon151]

Dorothy still does has the potential to overcome Klein if fully trained and that is fact.

Well, no shit, Sherlock. Wolt's 20/20 stats beat Klein/s --/20 stats, too. Congratulations on stating a fact that has zero practical application.

I don't see why your saying she has terrible stats, because she doesn't, she just comes at level 3 and has AS problems at first.

Here, let me use your metric of "Wolt is terrible" to show you how terrible Dorothy is:

Wolt joins in chapter 1 at 1/0; Dorothy joins in chapter 6 at 3/0. If we give Wolt just 3 levels in 5 maps:

4/0 Wolt: 20.4 HP, 5.2 str, 6.2 spd

3/0 Dorothy: 19 HP, 5 str, 6 spd

The numbers don't lie; Dorothy is as bad as Wolt and will continue to be for a long, long time. Their growths aren't even significantly different enough to warrant any meaningful deviation until they promote.

Dorothy also needs to be about 12/1 to tie Klein's base AS and 19/1 to tie Klein's base str. She'll probably need at least 70 hard earned rounds of combat plus promotion bonuses to reach Klein's base weapon rank. Terrible, right?

I appreciate you opinion but hold the attitude.

Facts don't have as much punch without an attitude to back them up.

Edited May 4, 2011 by dondon151

[Desro]

Dorothy getting to 12/1 is still very practical, but I feel she needs to get to 15/1 to start besting a HM Klein.

The facts you presented are actually pretty good and it makes a good argument. Thanks for putting that together. Before I though you were just and ass with a Klein fetish.

The facts> the attitude. Maybe next time I'll play I'll give Klein another shot, she still does have his own AS issues, but that could be solved with just 1 Speedwing.

[Dunal]

Her growths may be quite good, but her base stats are still awful. Heck, in my balance patch, these are her base stats;

LV / HP / STR / SKL / SPD / LUCK / DEF / RES

5 / 22 / 10 / 12 / 8 / 7 / 5 / 4

And here are her growths;

HP / STR / SKL / SPD / LUCK / DEF / RES

90% / 65% / 60% / 35% / 30% / 20% / 25%

Yeah... Gonzales was the benchmark (who isn't really changed), so that's what it took to make her to reach his level in usefulness, more or less. Pretty sad, also considering that Bows and Ballista were buffed as well. And that short bows have 1-2 range.

In a nutshell; Dorothy sucks. Slightly better than Wolt. But that's not saying much.

Edited May 14, 2011 by DLuna

[Desro]

....ironically, I also decided to balance patch the game (for my own enjoyment, I probably won't release anything) and I say I'd have to agree now. When I had all the characters with their average stats in an excel file, she went right to the bottom (well Wolt and a few others were there below her still).

By the way, Gonzales isn't a good L5 benchmark, he's got awesome stats for a L5 unit. It doesn't change that everything you said is very true, she has terrible joining stats, even for a L3 unit.

Sue (and Thany) on the other hand has great stats for a L1 unit..... I honestly don't know why I defended Dorothy, especially when Sue is my favorite FE character.

[Dunal]

....ironically, I also decided to balance patch the game (for my own enjoyment, I probably won't release anything) and I say I'd have to agree now. When I had all the characters with their average stats in an excel file, she went right to the bottom (well Wolt and a few others were there below her still).

By the way, Gonzales isn't a good L5 benchmark, he's got awesome stats for a L5 unit. It doesn't change that everything you said is very true, she has terrible joining stats, even for a L3 unit.

Sue (and Thany) on the other hand has great stats for a L1 unit..... I honestly don't know why I defended Dorothy, especially when Sue is my favorite FE character.

With Gonzales, I changed his level to 8 (in-between A route and B) for both routes. This means that Gonzales is now borderline high tier, which is what I was aiming for, for all units. And then changing the difficulty of the game based on that (which is generally made higher of course).

With Sue, her bases are rather good, but her con is low and her bases are still bad for that point of the game. And her STR growth is also mediocre. She needed a big boost as well.