Drafting Tournaments Explained

[IntegerZero]

I'm just going to say that I'm interested in any FE8 Drafts. Also, Xander finished his play through.

[13th]

I request my username on the list of interested parties changed to 13thshadow, as its my main name. I don't intend to change this name.

[Integrity]

@eclipse: Done.

@Integer: Done, and what draft did Xander finish?

@13: Done.

[Florete]

Wish I'd thought of this before the current draft, but anyway, for FE9, a possible way to avoid having the fliers be broken could be requiring everyone to recruit all characters. Notable chapters this affects:

9: Recruiting Marcia and completing can't be done faster than 8 turns, iirc, where it otherwise can be beaten in 5 or 6. Ironically, this first case does the exact opposite of what I intend; make Marcia even better.

10: Team depending, the chapter will be easier without having to open the doors for Nephenee and Brom/Kieran.

11: With a small enough team (for example, if Marcia is the only draftee to this point), recruiting Zihark and keeping him away from penalties can be very difficult.

12: Marcia can potentially clear this in 2 turns, but to get Jill you need to wait until turn 7. This potentially powers Jill, but it shouldn't matter since no one should ever be able to draft both Marcia and Jill.

14: I don't think recruiting Makalov necessarily has to cost turns especially if Marcia has to be recruited already, but it's worth mentioning that someone needs to go that way if the player didn't recruit Marcia.

15: This is a pretty big one, since avoiding penalties and recruiting Stefan just can't be done fast with how the north east Laguz work. I believe 6 turns becomes the minimum, which potentially eliminates any turn advantages fliers may have here.

16: With the right team, recruiting Devdan is probably possible without loss of turns, but since he's past the throne room it can't be very efficient.

18: Unless the player drafted Rolf, recruiting Shinon isn't fun with siege tomes in the area.

21: I don't know if this is actually worth mentioning since you probably want to recruit Tauroneo anyway for his items and he's easy enough to keep out of range of enemies, but it would be worth noting if the player would rather just kill him.

23: Similar to above for the Brave Axe, and for the fact that this is only really matters for whoever drafts Jill, which is technically the point of this idea as a whole.

And Ena can be recruited in place of Nasir, of course, as well as the royal of your choice.

12 and 15 are the big ones as far as Marcia is concerned, with 15 affecting Jill just as much. There's not a whole lot in general, especially with Marcia's initial recruitment cost removed, but it should at least help to even things. I don't know how it would translate to other games (recruiting Aran would be headache-inducing).

Edited February 26, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Kaoz]

Wish I'd thought of this before the current draft, but anyway, for FE9, a possible way to avoid having the fliers be broken could be requiring everyone to recruit all characters. Notable chapters this affects:

[...]

12 and 15 are the big ones as far as Marcia is concerned, with 15 affecting Jill just as much. There's not a whole lot in general, especially with Marcia's initial recruitment cost removed, but it should at least help to even things. I don't know how it would translate to other games (recruiting Aran would be headache-inducing).

Of course I could be completly wrong but... I don't think chapter 15 was that much of an advantage for Marcia actually. Her 3 turn recruitment cost is pretty much nullified because teams with Jill can have a similiar turncount and teams with Soren/Ilyana can complete the chapter in 5 turns. True whoever didn't get a flyer or a mage will lose turns here, but that's his own fault for not drafting one. So, in chapters in which your rule would be in effect, Marcia and Jill save 5 and 3 turns respectively, but apart from that there are still chapters like 17-2, 17-4, 20, 21 and 25 that are not affected and in which flyers still dominate.

In conclusion, I'm not sure whether the forced recruitment would affect the flyers all that much as only one of their strong chapters is adressed.

[Florete]

Of course I could be completly wrong but... I don't think chapter 15 was that much of an advantage for Marcia actually. Her 3 turn recruitment cost is pretty much nullified because teams with Jill can have a similiar turncount and teams with Soren/Ilyana can complete the chapter in 5 turns. True whoever didn't get a flyer or a mage will lose turns here, but that's his own fault for not drafting one. So, in chapters in which your rule would be in effect, Marcia and Jill save 5 and 3 turns respectively, but apart from that there are still chapters like 17-2, 17-4, 20, 21 and 25 that are not affected and in which flyers still dominate.

In conclusion, I'm not sure whether the forced recruitment would affect the flyers all that much as only one of their strong chapters is adressed.

Did you not notice my mention of 12? Marcia alone can save a potential six turns there. There is also 11 where the forced recruitment could slow her down with a small team. Also, there are two fliers and two Mages available for 15; somebody will not have one. Given that neither Soren or Ilyana are really first or second pick material, I'd say it isn't too unlikely that someone who drafted Jill or Marcia gets one of them, meaning there'd be two people out of luck.

17-2 can be cleared in 3 turns regardless with planning, though it might require Mordecai for Smite (which is how I did it), and fliers can't beat it in two. By the time 20 comes along (and the later ones, of course), the likes of Janaff, Ulki, Reyson, and Tanith have joined, making Jill's and Marcia's specific advantages not as great over other potential teams.

In the end, it's obvious not all of their advantages will be eliminated. That's unnecessary. It just needs to even the playing field a bit. There's nothing wrong with them still being the top draftees.

This would also aid certain other draftees, Stefan in particular, whom most people probably don't bother with normally but would suddenly become a very good draftee for his great bases and early join.

[Kaoz]

Did you not notice my mention of 12? Marcia alone can save a potential six turns there.

I did, it's the one chapter I mentioned in which Marcia is affected by this rule.

There is also 11 where the forced recruitment could slow her down with a small team.

I kinda doubt it. You'll probably take the northern path anyway and Lethe has enough movement to recruit Zihark on the last turn.

Also, there are two fliers and two Mages available for 15; somebody will not have one. Given that neither Soren or Ilyana are really first or second pick material, I'd say it isn't too unlikely that someone who drafted Jill or Marcia gets one of them, meaning there'd be two people out of luck.

I disagree. When chapter 15 is such a crucial map, it means that Soren and Ilyana are first or second pick material. Also they aren't all that useful outside of that chapter, so I'd say it's unlikely that someone who already drafted Marica or Jill will draft one of them too. There will always be one person that has neither a flyer nor a mage, but that's his fault for not picking one of them earlier.

17-2 can be cleared in 3 turns regardless with planning, though it might require Mordecai for Smite (which is how I did it), and fliers can't beat it in two. By the time 20 comes along (and the later ones, of course), the likes of Janaff, Ulki, Reyson, and Tanith have joined, making Jill's and Marcia's specific advantages not as great over other potential teams.

I suppose.

In the end, it's obvious not all of their advantages will be eliminated. That's unnecessary. It just needs to even the playing field a bit. There's nothing wrong with them still being the top draftees.

Of course, and this should be tested, but I don't see the additional turns spent in chapter 12 or 15 making a huge enough impact to actually make it reasonably even.

This would also aid certain other draftees, Stefan in particular, whom most people probably don't bother with normally but would suddenly become a very good draftee for his great bases and early join.

True, every rule strengthens some characters but it would probably hurt certain others as well (again, Soren and Ilyana come to mind for being not all that great outside of the desert).

[Florete]

I kinda doubt it. You'll probably take the northern path anyway and Lethe has enough movement to recruit Zihark on the last turn.

I actually didn't think of that, though this does mean you miss the Dracoshield and you may end up at risk of the BK.

I disagree. When chapter 15 is such a crucial map, it means that Soren and Ilyana are first or second pick material. Also they aren't all that useful outside of that chapter, so I'd say it's unlikely that someone who already drafted Marica or Jill will draft one of them too. There will always be one person that has neither a flyer nor a mage, but that's his fault for not picking one of them earlier.

I find it funny you say Soren and Ilyana are first or second pick material, not for the fact that most of the FE9 drafts so far disagree with you (I count two instances with Soren as 2nd pick, and Ilyana is always later), but because you continue to say that they're only really useful for a single map. Also, how fast can 22 be cleared with a Sage to Siege tome the boss?

For the record, if these guys really are first pick material, it is not at all the fault of whoever drafts last when Marcia, Jill, Soren, and Ilyana are the first picks.

Of course, and this should be tested, but I don't see the additional turns spent in chapter 12 or 15 making a huge enough impact to actually make it reasonably even.

That depends on who/what you're comparing it to. I don't expect to dethrone Marcia as the top draftee. I just expect the likes of Jill, Oscar, and Reyson to be better competition, and for the team who drafted Marcia to not be able to auto-win every time. 6 turns in 12 and 4 turns in 15 is already 10 turns alone. RD beat me by 14 turns with his Marcia team, which would have been reduced to 4 with this. If I had gotten Wrath and Resolve to use for the final chapter, I could have potentially beaten him (other recruitable characters I missed notwithstanding) without having a single flying combat unit on my team. I'd say that's doing a damn good job of making things more even.

True, every rule strengthens some characters but it would probably hurt certain others as well (again, Soren and Ilyana come to mind for being not all that great outside of the desert).

Soren and Ilyana mostly benefit from showing up early. The only people this would actually affect are those with substitutes who are superior but tough to recruit, like the Swordmasters in general, and any other unit Stefan becomes better than with his high stats but 1 range lock. The likes of Devdan, Shinon, and Tauroneo won't really take anyone's place just for this.

[Kaoz]

I actually didn't think of that, though this does mean you miss the Dracoshield and you may end up at risk of the BK.

I guess Ike could try to get the Dracoshield, as for the BK, I suppose that's true but with proper planning he shouldn't be that much of a problem either.

I find it funny you say Soren and Ilyana are first or second pick material, not for the fact that most of the FE9 drafts so far disagree with you (I count two instances with Soren as 2nd pick, and Ilyana is always later), but because you continue to say that they're only really useful for a single map. Also, how fast can 22 be cleared with a Sage to Siege tome the boss?

Ok let me rephrase that, they are very good in chapter 15, but there are generally a lot of superior options for other chapters. Nevertheless, when a single chapter has a great impact on turncount, being good in that one chapter can excuse mediocre performance in other, less important chapters.

I think 22 can be cleared in 2 or 3 turns that way? If I'm not mistaken any Paladin can clear it in 3 or 4 as well though.

For the record, if these guys really are first pick material, it is not at all the fault of whoever drafts last when Marcia, Jill, Soren, and Ilyana are the first picks.

True, in that instance it's just bad luck.

That depends on who/what you're comparing it to. I don't expect to dethrone Marcia as the top draftee. I just expect the likes of Jill, Oscar, and Reyson to be better competition, and for the team who drafted Marcia to not be able to auto-win every time. 6 turns in 12 and 4 turns in 15 is already 10 turns alone. RD beat me by 14 turns with his Marcia team, which would have been reduced to 4 with this. If I had gotten Wrath and Resolve to use for the final chapter, I could have potentially beaten him (other recruitable characters I missed notwithstanding) without having a single flying combat unit on my team. I'd say that's doing a damn good job of making things more even.

9 turns because he had to spent one more turn in chapter 8, but I see where you're coming from.

Soren and Ilyana mostly benefit from showing up early. The only people this would actually affect are those with substitutes who are superior but tough to recruit, like the Swordmasters in general, and any other unit Stefan becomes better than with his high stats but 1 range lock. The likes of Devdan, Shinon, and Tauroneo won't really take anyone's place just for this.

Well, I'm (almost) done with nit-picking, only question is whether there are enough people to test it at the moment, seeing as the sign-ups for the current draft took quite some time.

Last, rather minor point...

Having GodBoyd in C8 just wasn't fun, even if it was necessary to maintain any semblance of competition, so I'd like to try to avoid it.

Wouldn't that still be a "problem"?

[Florete]

I think 22 can be cleared in 2 or 3 turns that way? If I'm not mistaken any Paladin can clear it in 3 or 4 as well though.

I really hate when I make meaning-changing typos. I meant "without" a Sage >_>. With a Sage it can be potentially cleared in 1 turn (with Reyson or an Adept trigger).

9 turns because he had to spent one more turn in chapter 8, but I see where you're coming from.

Yes, as stated: "(other recruitable characters I missed notwithstanding)"

Well, I'm (almost) done with nit-picking, only question is whether there are enough people to test it at the moment, seeing as the sign-ups for the current draft took quite some time.

I'd join it. I'm used to this game well enough by this point that I can get through it fairly quickly.

Last, rather minor point...

Wouldn't that still be a "problem"?

Potentially, but seeing as Boyd does not have a mount or any sort of extra utility, I'd hardly say it needs significant adjusting. Due to how BEXP works, if it's allowed, early picks are naturally going to be better than late ones the majority of the time. I don't think it's something that can be reasonably fixed, nor does it need to be.

[Kaoz]

Potentially, but seeing as Boyd does not have a mount or any sort of extra utility, I'd hardly say it needs significant adjusting. Due to how BEXP works, if it's allowed, early picks are naturally going to be better than late ones the majority of the time. I don't think it's something that can be reasonably fixed, nor does it need to be.

I interpreted it as the game not being very interesting with a team of overpowered units...

[Krad]

Actually, Chapter 22 can be one turned without a Sage with a siege tome. I atleast did on my NM draft. From that thread:

Chapter 22

BEXP: A level for Ike, Kieran, Volke, Jill and Gatrie. Forged a Steel Sword and gave it to Mist.

Ike kills the fighter to the north, then Volke shoves the left priest to the west. Titania moves forward and kills the priest northwest of Tomenami. Kieran rushes and kills the Archer with a Hand Axe. Mist goes north and rescues Jill, who kills Schaeffer. Gatrie killed a mage.

Turns: 1

I did use a Rescue staff use, but it can be replaced by Reyson if drafted. Also, Jill had adept since she only 3HKO's with a Hand Axe. I'm not sure how viable this is for teams with fewer ammount of mounted units (I had Titania, Kieran, Jill and Mist).

It may not work due to the way enemies are set in HM compared to NM. I haven't played PoR in ages so I can't say anything there.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Krad

[Integrity]

Enemy density, Krad, is MASSIVELY thicker in HM for that particular chapter. You have to knock off, by my recollection, at least five Priests before you can get to 2range with Schaeffer.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

I finished Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon Drafting Tourney #VII in 136 turns. Please edit it in

Also Navarre's name is wrote wrong in the first draft tourney of SD I told them to fix it pack then as well. Those fuckers

EDIT Also my team in the VII includes Etzel. Go fix it 13...

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sho.M.the.Money

[Krad]

Enemy density, Krad, is MASSIVELY thicker in HM for that particular chapter. You have to knock off, by my recollection, at least five Priests before you can get to 2range with Schaeffer.

Ok, watched a video of Chapter 22 HM on youtube, and you need to kill 4 enemies to reach Schaeffer from 2 range. Ike can easily get you the first one, and whoever is going to kill Schaeffer can kill the one in front of Schaeffer and canto into 2 range, so that only leaves 2 enemies that need to be killed.

So you could do it if you have, in addition to Ike and Titania

-Mist/Rhys, Reyson or a Sage with B staves(hahahahahaha)

-A mounted unit that can 3HKO Schaeffer (can be Titania)

-2 extra units with 9 move (Cavs, fliers, laguz) to kill the 2 more enemies needed. Maybe a foot unit + a few shovers can work instead of a mount.

Doesn't seem that hard to get the units required.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Krad

[Integrity]

Cheers, cheers and cheers Sho.

Krad: It may be possible -with an average draft team-, I don't know. I don't have that level of low-turn strategery that you and dondon possess.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Integrity

[13th]

H2SOYO finished drafting for FE11....

Final Teams.

eclipse: Bantu, Maria, Minerva, Palla, Windex, Dolph, Cord, Sedgar

13thshadow: Tiki, Xane, Macellan, Tomas, Merric, Radd, Horace, Navarre

Sho M. the Money: Samson, Lorenz, Astram, Darros, Jake, Gordin, Lena, Draug.

Xander: Arran, Beck, Wrys, Catria, Midia, Castor, Etzel, Hardin

General_Horace: Linde, Elice, Ymir, Matthis, Caesar, Vyland, Bord, Wolf

Elieson: Est, Jeorge, Boah, Rickard, Roshea, Roger, Athena, Julian

I hosted, as I usually do.

[Florete]

Some ideas for the FE9 BEXP.

	Mist		3/-

I personally think this is too low. It makes Mist near useless. Healing is already redundant in PoR (even with the BEXP limits), so Mist's only real use is becoming a Valkyrie. I'd say you keep this initial boost, then every map she can be given something like 75-100 more BEXP.

	Rolf		4/-

This may also be too low. He's already in a bad class, so no matter how high his stats get he'll never be a great draft. I'd say he doesn't even need a limit, but something like Mist's might also work.

	Brom		12/-
Gatrie		+4.X
Tauroneo	+0

These guys do not need a limit. Any limit. Their mobility is too much of a hindrance. They could come with stats capped, promoted, and probably still only be average picks at best.

17	Danved		+0

Janaff		+0
Ulki		+0

19	Shinon		+4.X
Calill		+0

23	Ranulf		+0

24	Haar		+0

25	Lucia		+0
Bastian		+0
Geoffrey	+0
Largo		+0

28	Ena		+0
Nasir		+0

I find it a bit strange that all these very mediocre units can't get any BEXP. Units like Lucia and Bastian are already pretty much last picks who aren't helped much by BEXP in the first place, so why restrict it so much?

Also, who's Danved?

I may have more suggestions as I do the PoR run.

[Radiant Dragon]

Perhaps in addition to the initial limits (which do need to be raised for some characters), we could be allowed to cap off units to their next level at the beginning of each chapter? After all, it's the 'give unit 20 levels of BEXP so they break the game' mindset we're trying to avoid.

[Florete]

Perhaps in addition to the initial limits (which do need to be raised for some characters), we could be allowed to cap off units to their next level at the beginning of each chapter? After all, it's the 'give unit 20 levels of BEXP so they break the game' mindset we're trying to avoid.

That could work. Maybe not for every unit (Titania should not be allowed any BEXP, I'd say), and for some, like Oscar, Marcia, and Jill, we could say they need to have at least 50 experience to prevent them from barely getting a level at the end of a map and essentially getting another for free.

[Vicious Sal]

Dunno if this has been done before, but anyway, It's an idea that popped in my head yesterday, when i was looking at the Tellius draft. Drafting has -as far as i can see- always been about picking characters. (This Idea only works with multiple game drafts btw). And in the Tellius Draft it was soon mentioned Jill would dominate, since she has amazing availability, great Rd endgame unit, flight, etc. So I thought, why not just draft according to numbers?

Numbers?

Yes, Numbers, best example is POr and RD draft. Normally you say: I want Marcia, Jill, etc. However, IF you say: I want the 20th character, which would be Jill in Por (Ike and Titania are not taken into the calculation ofc), you would end up with Leanne in Radiant dawn. This way you compromise more, and there are probably less broken options. (I haven't checked if there are broken combo's like Reyson in POR = Haar in RD).

Ofcourse this gets tricky with things like multiple recruitments from the start (Chapter 1 Por (Boyd and oscar join at the same time)). This could be placed according to the tier list. So oscar would be counted as first recruit, and boyd second. Or something like that.

Anyway, I wanted to throw it in here before I start a draft, so, discuss. =D

[Radiant Dragon]

PoR has less characters than RD, though. How would you deal with the last 20 or so characters who join in RD?

[Vicious Sal]

Well, they would drop on this new Tier list, volug is also a 1 Option char, but because of his amazing performance, he is still high. In the new Tier list, he and edward would skyrocket, (Edward + Oscar probably). Other characters would drop on this tier list.

[Radiant Dragon]

Going off of the order given by the main site's recruitment lists:

PoR Oscar = RD Edward

PoR Mist = RD Jill

PoR Astrid = RD Haar

I stopped there, but that's not the point. The goal is to remove auto-win first picks, not replace the current ones with new ones.

[Vicious Sal]

Going off of the order given by the main site's recruitment lists:

PoR Oscar = RD Edward

PoR Mist = RD Jill

PoR Astrid = RD Haar

I stopped there, but that's not the point. The goal is to remove auto-win first picks, not replace the current ones with new ones.

Well, since Boyd and Oscar join automatically from the start, Boyd could switch with Oscar (Still high, but less broken). Same for Mist/ Rolf, although that also does not really improve/worsen it. The last is not switchable though. =/

And the goal of this idea was not removing auto-win first picks (though it would be a great benefit), It's a different way of drafting. If people think it's worth testing, I'd like to start a topic, though we need more opinions before that.