Drafting Tournaments Explained

[Radiant Dragon]

Oh well. Next chapter you get Wendell, and he can just reclass and use Warp.

Wendell doesn't have C rank staves, either. Or does he get C when he reclasses to Bishop?

Edited July 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Psych]

Wendell doesn't have C rank staves, either.

No, but he does have D. And he can be reclassed too.

[Florete]

Unless I'm remembering wrong, this would only be a 'problem' in 17x, since there's only 2 spots left after Hector/Marcus/Eliwood/Lyn. Well, and Chapter 30, but yeah.

The player will draft units. 18, 21, and 23 all have only 8 deployment slots (maybe a few more), for example, and 23 is over halfway through the game (Ninian, 3 fliers, and Isadora are all available by then). HHM deployment in general just isn't very high.

Wait, 18 may actually be 6 now that I think of it.

I would prefer not to create that rule, since if a character is going to cost more turns to recruit than they would save, I believe that the player should be given the choice whether or not to bother getting them.

I don't like that as a rule, either, it's just the only thing I could come up with. When it comes to a character like Wallace, no one would want to recruit him.

[Radiant Dragon]

The player will draft units. 18, 21, and 23 all have only 8 deployment slots (maybe a few more), for example, and 23 is over halfway through the game (Ninian, 3 fliers, and Isadora are all available by then). HHM deployment in general just isn't very high.

Wait, 18 may actually be 6 now that I think of it.

All of those chapters are after halfway through the recruitable characters (Canas is the 50% point), so I see what you mean. I'm not sure it's a big problem, though.

I played 18 (well, 17 actually) recently in EHM, and I'm pretty sure I was able to bring 8 units. I don't remember if HHM has even less deployment slots than EHM, though.

[Florete]

All of those chapters are after halfway through the recruitable characters (Canas is the 50% point), so I see what you mean. I'm not sure it's a big problem, though.

I played 18 (well, 17 actually) recently in EHM, and I'm pretty sure I was able to bring 8 units. I don't remember if HHM has even less deployment slots than EHM, though.

I feel it's kind of pointless (and defeats the purpose of drafts) when you end with more units on your team than you can even deploy. This isn't like RD with a bunch of team-switching, so throwing a stack of free units at everyone lowers the benefit of drafting at all. I mean, it's practically an adequate (if not amazing) team as it is.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Radiant Dragon]

I feel it's kind of pointless (and defeats the purpose of drafts) when you end with more units on your team than you can even deploy. This isn't like RD with a bunch of team-switching, so throwing a stack of free units at everyone lowers the benefit of drafting at all. I mean, it's practically an adequate (if not amazing) team as it is.

@Bold: Not really. Ignoring Merlinus and Athos, all you've got are Marcus, the Lords and Ninils. That's like, 3 picks when you usually get 7. I do agree with the rest of your post, though.

How about removing Wallace and Geitz entirely and making Eliwood and Lyn draftable again? That gives us: Free Hector, Marcus, Priscilla (to make Cog of Destiny feasible for all teams), Merlinus and Athos, which along with combined draftable Ninils (or free Nils and draftable Ninian) and Karla/Bartre gives us 35 picks, enough for 7 spread amongst 5 drafters.

Or we could make Ninils free and draft Priscilla, or we could add Wallace back into the pool and take out Karla. There's plenty of ways to do this, we just have to find one (most) everyone agrees with.

Also Psych, update the OP in your FE9 draft.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Paperblade]

Karla should be free with Bartre, it's not like having both as one unit would be overpowered

[Radiant Dragon]

Karla should be free with Bartre, it's not like having both as one unit would be overpowered

I agree (they're still a pretty mediocre pick as it is, honestly), but the option's there.

[Balcerzak]

Nobody will visit Karla's Gaiden anyway, unless it's forced. Waste of turns, and if they're smart they'll have done enough shopping ahead of time.

[Florete]

@Bold: Not really. Ignoring Merlinus and Athos, all you've got are Marcus, the Lords and Ninils. That's like, 3 picks when you usually get 7. I do agree with the rest of your post, though.

That's why I said adequate but not amazing. There'd be some tough maps, but overall you could probably get through the whole game with that.

Nobody will visit Karla's Gaiden anyway, unless it's forced. Waste of turns, and if they're smart they'll have done enough shopping ahead of time.

I do believe it's usually free these days. It's kind of pointless for it not to be.

[Radiant Dragon]

That's why I said adequate but not amazing. There'd be some tough maps, but overall you could probably get through the whole game with that.

I'd imagine any map with lots of 2-range would be irritating as hell, though. Well, until Eliwood promotes, at least.

I do believe it's usually free these days. It's kind of pointless for it not to be.

Actually, it's usually simply forced, like most other Gaidens (19xx, 23x and 28x being the exceptions).

Edited July 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[PKL]

Integ, I finished in soul's RD draft EX. 276 turns

[Integrity]

Check. Didn't even have it in the log.

If I may focus this discussion between you two, Fox and RD, I want to actually come to some conclusions on 3-1. We're agreed on one non-Lucia unit free for 2-2, yes? That settled, I'm going to make the official submission for 3-1 one of Mia, Shinon or Boyd (or rolf lol) free at the player's discretion.

If you're both rock-solid on that point, we'll continue to the General Talk of Warp or wtfever you're on, but I need to have conclusions for the OP.

[Radiant Dragon]

That settled, I'm going to make the official submission for 3-1 one of Mia, Shinon or Boyd (or rolf lol) free at the player's discretion.

Works for me, although it should be noted that Mist also has 7 move, and is an option (not sure why you would want her though, unless you needed healing).

If you're both rock-solid on that point, we'll continue to the General Talk of Warp or wtfever you're on, but I need to have conclusions for the OP.

It's considering banning Warp in all games except FE4 and what the unit list for FE7 should be, unless I missed something.

[Florete]

If I may focus this discussion between you two, Fox and RD, I want to actually come to some conclusions on 3-1. We're agreed on one non-Lucia unit free for 2-2, yes? That settled, I'm going to make the official submission for 3-1 one of Mia, Shinon or Boyd (or rolf lol) free at the player's discretion.

I wouldn't call it a conclusion yet since it can still sue some testing, but sure.

If you're both rock-solid on that point, we'll continue to the General Talk of Warp or wtfever you're on, but I need to have conclusions for the OP.

I don't think Warp needs to be banned at all in the GBA games. It just comes too late. With the maps in which you can actually use it in FE7 it's especially unlikely to save enough turns to warrant a ban (CoD it comes too late, lol30, 15-turn defend map, huge ass VoD, Light). I'm not as sure on 6 and 8, but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't think Warp needs to be banned at all in the GBA games. It just comes too late. With the maps in which you can actually use it in FE7 it's especially unlikely to save enough turns to warrant a ban (CoD it comes too late, lol30, 15-turn defend map, huge ass VoD, Light). I'm not as sure on 6 and 8, but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

FE6: it comes halfway through the game, and Hammerne is only 2 chapters away. Add in every map being Seize, and terrain often getting in the way, and it's saving a lot of turns here. The only difference between FE6 and FE11 is that Warp's range is limited by your unit's Magic, but that's easily worked around.

FE7: Why can't 30 be Warped? 32 being so huge and having lots of terrain is why Warp is good there (albeit you can't just 'Warp boss-killer, Warp Hector', I'll admit). And you forgot 32x, which can be 1-turned with Warp, and it takes significantly longer to walk around. I'll admit that it's not saving any turns in 31 and 31x, and maybe only one or two in Light.

FE8: Warp can save quite a few turns in 16, 17, 19, 20 and Final, although I'll admit a good flier gets the job done almost just as well in 20 (and possibly Final), and 17 isn't much longer if you have Tethys and a good mounted (non-Great Knight) unit.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Florete]

FE6: it comes halfway through the game, and Hammerne is only 2 chapters away. Add in every map being Seize, and terrain often getting in the way, and it's saving a lot of turns here. The only difference between FE6 and FE11 is that Warp's range is limited by your unit's Magic, but that's easily worked around.

Hm, yeah, might be worth banning here.

FE7: Why can't 30 be Warped? 32 being so huge and having lots of terrain is why Warp is good there (albeit you can't just 'Warp boss-killer, Warp Hector', I'll admit). And you forgot 32x, which can be 1-turned with Warp, and it takes significantly longer to walk around. I'll admit that it's not saving any turns in 31 and 31x, and maybe only one or two in Light.

30 can be Warped, but with only one extra unit, and considering Pent will likely have the best staff range, I doubt it's saving much. Otherwise, Warp just isn't around long enough in FE7 to make so significant of an impact as to be worth banning.

[Radiant Dragon]

30 can be Warped, but with only one extra unit, and considering Pent will likely have the best staff range, I doubt it's saving much. Otherwise, Warp just isn't around long enough in FE7 to make so significant of an impact as to be worth banning.

30: Warping Hector closer to the boss can easily speed up the boss kill and Arrive by 2 or 3 turns.

32: There's lots of terrain (forrests, mountains and rivers) that your units would have to trudge through otherwise here, so that's another 3 or 4 or more turns.

32x: Again, you ignore this chapter. 1 turn with Warp vs. about 7 or 8 without?

Final: It's not doing much here, but I can see it saving 1 or 2 turns.

So that's about 13 to 17 turns, roughly (and probably inaccurately) estimated. Seems significant to me. The thing about FE7 and Warp is that only Pent will really be able to use if effectively outside of 32x (and even then that's only 3 people who can draft Pent/Priscilla/Serra). If more than one person could use it, I wouldn't be pushing so hard for it to be banned there.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Toothache]

Warp may come a lot sooner in FE6, but with weapon ranks being so much slower I doubt many units will have the rank to use it. Maybe Saul, since he starts with C and can certainly get to A staves if he's promoted by then. This does put a damper on using the other early staff bots, since it will take them a long time to hit A staves, and probably by then Niime and Yodel have come along.

[Florete]

32: There's lots of terrain (forrests, mountains and rivers) that your units would have to trudge through otherwise here, so that's another 3 or 4 or more turns.

Thing is, there's not really any sort of wall to Warp over to make things significantly faster, like in 31x. You're Warping over what you'd normally just walk (or fly!) over. With an adequate team, even 3 turns might be pushing it.

32x: Again, you ignore this chapter. 1 turn with Warp vs. about 7 or 8 without?

I ignored it because you're right. Even then, however, it is a gaiden chapter; if it's a problem, the rules can just cut it out.

So that's about 13 to 17 turns, roughly (and probably inaccurately) estimated. Seems significant to me. The thing about FE7 and Warp is that only Pent will really be able to use if effectively outside of 32x (and even then that's only 3 people who can draft Pent/Priscilla/Serra). If more than one person could use it, I wouldn't be pushing so hard for it to be banned there.

In theory, but practice makes things more difficult, particularly since you'll likely only have one staff user to use both Warp and Hammerne, and you should need more than 5 uses to actually shave off all those turns.

Plus, there's the fact that, as you mentioned, Pent is the best user of it and there are still two others. Pent comes late and is on foot, so fliers, Florina in particular, will likely be higher priority drafts (and as far as I can tell, this is how it's been in FE7 drafts despite Warp not being banned), and early game combat units are generally valued more than early game healers in drafts. No one is becoming Haar over here, which is why I don't agree it's worth being banned.

[Radiant Dragon]

Thing is, there's not really any sort of wall to Warp over to make things significantly faster, like in 31x. You're Warping over what you'd normally just walk (or fly!) over.

I would consider a sea of forests and a river a 'wall to Warp over to make things significantly faster'. Using a flier (or two) still requires more effort and doesn't save as many turns in one chapter (they save more turns over the course of the entire playthrough, but then again there's more than one flier). Besides, who says we can't have Warp and a flier?

In theory, but practice makes things more difficult, particularly since you'll likely only have one staff user to use both Warp and Hammerne, and you should need more than 5 uses to actually shave off all those turns.

Who says we have to use and repair it in the same chapter? Any uses incurred in 30 can be repaired in 31 or 31x, and you don't need more than 5 uses for 32 and 32x, so it can be repaired (if it needs to be repaired at all) on the first turn of Light. It's even easier if you have Nils (or if he's free).

Pent comes late and is on foot, so fliers, Florina in particular, will likely be higher priority drafts (and as far as I can tell, this is how it's been in FE7 drafts despite Warp not being banned)

Pent has replaced Priscilla as the first pick in recent drafts, and for good reason. I picked Priscilla first instead in one draft, and regretted it. And again, it's not like having a flier and Warp in drafts is mutually exclusive; It's very easy to get Pent first pick and get one of Florina/Fiora/Heath second pick.

No one is becoming Haar over here, which is why I don't agree it's worth being banned.

Maybe not on the same scale as Haar, but Serra and Priscilla simply won't have good enough Magic to use it nearly as effectively as Pent does. Even if they could, Pent isn't the problem; That still only lets 3 out of 5 drafters use Warp.

[Florete]

I would consider a sea of forests and a river a 'wall to Warp over to make things significantly faster'. Using a flier (or two) still requires more effort and doesn't save as many turns in one chapter (they save more turns over the course of the entire playthrough, but then again there's more than one flier). Besides, who says we can't have Warp and a flier?

If fliers save more turns over the course of the entire playthrough, clearly they are more valuable than a Warp user.

Of course you can have a Warper and flier, and that's pretty awesome. No matter what you do, someone is going to have an advantage, especially when you consider that there are only 4 fliers in the game. Should we ban them, too?

Pent has replaced Priscilla as the first pick in recent drafts, and for good reason. I picked Priscilla first instead in one draft, and regretted it. And again, it's not like having a flier and Warp in drafts is mutually exclusive; It's very easy to get Pent first pick and get one of Florina/Fiora/Heath second pick.

Whoever gets Pent should not get Florina, at least, as long as the other drafters are not idiots. Is Pent really worth being picked first for this, though? Personally I think I'd still take Florina over him.

Maybe not on the same scale as Haar, but Serra and Priscilla simply won't have good enough Magic to use it nearly as effectively as Pent does. Even if they could, Pent isn't the problem; That still only lets 3 out of 5 drafters use Warp.

Priscilla also has more Move, which can be used as an advantage in itself, and as long as she hits 10 Mag, an Energy Ring can give her one more range. 3/5 being able to use Warp, with the other two hopefully being smart enough to get Florina and whatever the two next best units would be sounds even enough to me.

Also, back on 31x but for all the chapters, the most Warp can save as far as the competition goes is four turns, because if it can save more, taking a penalty would be more beneficial.

[Radiant Dragon]

If fliers save more turns over the course of the entire playthrough, clearly they are more valuable than a Warp user.

Of course you can have a Warper and flier, and that's pretty awesome. No matter what you do, someone is going to have an advantage, especially when you consider that there are only 4 fliers in the game. Should we ban them, too?

Except there are 5 fliers (admittedly, Vaida's and to a lesser extent Farina's availability hurts them), and only 1 good Warp user. Everyone will have a chance at a flier, but only the player who picks Pent or maybe Priscilla (her move does give her an advantage, I'll admit) can effectively use Warp and fliers.

Is Pent really worth being picked first for this, though? Personally I think I'd still take Florina over him.

The problem with using past drafts as reference is that most are unfinished, so I can't give a definite answer. Still, Pent or Priscilla have always been picked before Florina and Fiora, so I can only infer that they're more valuable.

Priscilla also has more Move, which can be used as an advantage in itself, and as long as she hits 10 Mag, an Energy Ring can give her one more range. 3/5 being able to use Warp, with the other two hopefully being smart enough to get Florina and whatever the two next best units would be sounds even enough to me.

@Bold: There are no Energy Rings in Hector Mode, for some reason.

It's not like getting Warp dooms the rest of your team to being mediocre. As long as they can keep competitive turncounts throughout the game, Warp will always put them ahead.

Also, back on 31x but for all the chapters, the most Warp can save as far as the competition goes is four turns, because if it can save more, taking a penalty would be more beneficial.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. I guess I know what I'm doing next time I play 31x in a draft.

[Florete]

Except there are 5 fliers (admittedly, Vaida's and to a lesser extent Farina's availability hurts them), and only 1 good Warp user. Everyone will have a chance at a flier, but only the player who picks Pent or maybe Priscilla (her move does give her an advantage, I'll admit) can effectively use Warp and fliers.

The point is that if Warp doesn't escalate anyone to being a clear-cut first pick, it shouldn't be worth banning. Haar is (possibly) worth banning because drafting him as a competent player is effectively winning the draft. Warp doesn't seem to be that way.

The problem with using past drafts as reference is that most are unfinished, so I can't give a definite answer. Still, Pent or Priscilla have always been picked before Florina and Fiora, so I can only infer that they're more valuable.

Well...

Over here Priscilla was picked by the fifth drafter and Pent was a second round draft.

Over here Pent was the first pick and then that same person got Priscilla, oddly enough.

Over here LM units had to be drafted first, but even so Pent took a while to be chosen.

And that's all I bothered to look for. There's the Elibe draft, but yeah. And even there Priscilla was chosen before Pent, though that was me.

[Radiant Dragon]

Maybe not always (I promise to use less absolutes from now on), but looking over the OP, looking at Hector mode only drafts, and ignoring SOYOs and the Tactician Stars draft leaves us with 9 drafts:

7 have seen a Priscilla or Pent first pick, 5 have seen both Pent and Priscilla picked in the first round, and all 9 have seen either of them go in the first round.

Only 1 has seen Florina as a first pick, and only 2 have seen her as a first round pick.

Other first round picks tend to be Serra, Raven, Oswin and Cavaliers.

Clear-cut? No, not quite. But pretty close, if you ask me.