Return of the Emblem: Chat

[Snowy_One]

The trade off is that they can counter. Yes, Robin has a lot of SKL and MT, that's her one saving grace. She can't counter, takes a counter every other turn, even on those turns without counters she can still take one because of ranged weapons, and she's locked too that one weapon and can't really use any others. Right now the freaking combat knife is looking more appealing. Only 5% less MT (doesn't matter unless I get, like, 20 SKL), better doubling, can counter, and while it always takes a counter, considering how the crossbows counter works ATM, it's not like it's much different.

[roymbrog]

Roth, the problem is that knives do everything better for high skill units. They allow epic amounts of doubling with only 5% less MT. The Crossbow also costs more.

Edited November 7, 2011 by roymbrog

[-Cynthia-]

The trade off is that they can counter. Yes, Robin has a lot of SKL and MT, that's her one saving grace. She can't counter, takes a counter every other turn, even on those turns without counters she can still take one because of ranged weapons, and she's locked too that one weapon and can't really use any others. Right now the freaking combat knife is looking more appealing. Only 5% less MT (doesn't matter unless I get, like, 20 SKL), better doubling, can counter, and while it always takes a counter, considering how the crossbows counter works ATM, it's not like it's much different.

PCs can't counter anyway, so not being able to counter is a moot point.

It was decreased because as Rothe said, skill based weapons are more "efficient" than strength based weapons because they use the same stat for hit and damage, while strength based weapons use different stats for hit and damage.

Crossbows avoid counters every other turn, combat knives always get countered. That seems like a pretty significant crossbow advantage to me (note that Combat Knives were nerfed too- they double less than they did before).

You can sell the Crossbow for half price at any time or full price at a swap meet. There will be swap meets in the future.

[roymbrog]

Do you know if there'll be one anytime soon? I don't like suddenly being nerfed, but I don't want to waste points because a weapon was weakened after I bought it ;___;

Edited November 7, 2011 by roymbrog

[Snowy_One]

PCs can't counter anyway, so not being able to counter is a moot point.

It was decreased because as Rothe said, skill based weapons are more "efficient" than strength based weapons because they use the same stat for hit and damage, while strength based weapons use different stats for hit and damage.

Crossbows avoid counters every other turn, combat knives always get countered. That seems like a pretty significant crossbow advantage to me (note that Combat Knives were nerfed too- they double less than they did before).

You can sell the Crossbow for half price at any time or full price at a swap meet. There will be swap meets in the future.

Okay. Allow me to ask the follow-up question of 'so what'? We don't have to invest in STR, SKL users also pretty much loose the ability to use any weapon that doesn't expressly use SKL as its damage stat and the 'not being able to counter every other turn' thing was already bashed the heck out by allowing ranged units to counter other ranged units (which is one of the primary types of units that units using a crossbow would be going after).

Also, did you ever ask yourself just WHY the crossbow was so appealing to SKL units? Because it allowed them the chance to make their SKL actually count for something outside of the high-AVO targets. SKL is useless against low-AVO targets, which is why I personally wanted the crossbow. The disadvantages that came with it have freaking HURT TOO! Losing the uncountered first strike alone is hard enough, especially since last fight it would have saved Robin. Not being countered every other turn sounds nice until you realize that most fights don't last long enough for it to happen more than two or three times, and if that unit fights a ranged unit, oh well... The simple fact of the matter is that the nerf is a bad idea and hurts a weapon that was pretty much keeping at least one character afloat.

Why make such a nerf anyways? It wasn't as if crossbow-units were tearing up the field or something with amazing SKL and MT. In fact, people who do use such weapons seemed to be the main reason why AVO-enemies didn't seem unmanageable. Not to mention that, as I pointed out beforehand, you are giving Robin -2 MT essentially just because, which really, REALLY sucks because her high SKL and MT were the only things keeping her useful in stat-combat.

Edit: Did you even talk to people beforehand to figure out if crossbows were even a problem? Or talk to the users themselves to find out why they used them in the first place?

Edited November 7, 2011 by Snowy_One

[roymbrog]

What if crossbows were made only usable by classes that could use bows? That would solve the issue of thieves or myrms trying to use it.

It would be locked to Horsemen, Archers, and Fighters.

EDIT: Or some other bonus could be added. Really, anything that would make it viable to actually use. Everyone who can use it right now has a better, cheaper alternative in the Combat Knives. You could make the argument that the Crossbow is ranged, but the units who benefit from skill weapons tend to either be defended consistently or dodge like hell anyway.

Edited November 7, 2011 by roymbrog

[-Cynthia-]

Do you know if there'll be one anytime soon? I don't like suddenly being nerfed, but I don't want to waste points because a weapon was weakened after I bought it ;___;

I will say there will be one relatively soon.

You're entitled to your opinion Snowy but we don't really have to ask for your opinion to make changes. We felt that Skl weapons needed some more minor drawbacks in order to compensate for the fact that they only needed to boost one stat as opposed to 2 for other attackers.

[roymbrog]

Alright. If I still feel the same way when it comes around I'll sell it then.

[Rothene]

The trade off is that they can counter. Yes, Robin has a lot of SKL and MT, that's her one saving grace. She can't counter, takes a counter every other turn, even on those turns without counters she can still take one because of ranged weapons, and she's locked too that one weapon and can't really use any others. Right now the freaking combat knife is looking more appealing. Only 5% less MT (doesn't matter unless I get, like, 20 SKL), better doubling, can counter, and while it always takes a counter, considering how the crossbows counter works ATM, it's not like it's much different.

Dude...when do PCs ever counter? Apart from defending.

Although maybe the crossbow should be treated as a 'Ranged' Bow...and recieve the -1 to Def&Res penalty alongside the special bow ability.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Rothene

[Snowy_One]

Drawbacks: I can't counter, can't use any weapons that don't allow me to use SKL as a primary weapon, and have to put up with the stupid ranged counter rules instead of the bows flat-out 'no counter on first attack' rule which has already cost me at least one death.

Advantages: SKL isn't worthless to me now.

Seriously, in the tier below the crossbow we have weapons that allow people to add on MAG to their STR and has the option to toggle between melee and ranged, a weapon that allows half of the STR stat to be used for DEF as well, a weapon that both boosts hit and allows for amazing doubling (especially if upgraded), one that allows people to freaking alter the outcome of dice rolls of their enemy, ones with 25% MT boosts, a weapon that does the exact same thing as the crossbow except doubles far easier and all I have to give up is one or two rounds of non-counters that didn't matter anyways the way things were going, a ranged weapon that had faster doubling and one that a character could switch out for another weapon with no downsides if he wasn't fighting at range, and of those, the ONLY one Robin could even use if she were to give up her crossbow is the combat knife and I am 100% positive I would have to buy something else to even gain access to it in the first place.

Seriously, not having STR is a pretty big downside in of itself as I am shut out from a multitude of weapons. Now on top of that my one advantage is being nerfed?

And Cynthia, talking to people helps a LOT because it allows you to identify what the problem is, how to address it, and if there is even one in the first place.

[roymbrog]

If you don't have strength it's your own damn fault. We don't tell you how to distribute your stats, that's completely your decision.

If the crossbow could do something unique like bypass some sort of enemy bonus or something it'd still be worth having.

Edited November 7, 2011 by roymbrog

[-Cynthia-]

I think a possible upgrade to the crossbow may happen in the future, but I think the crossbow as it is now a pretty balanced weapon. The Mt nerf is pretty small, all things considered. Still hits harder than throwing knives for instance.

Unless you're a healer, Skl is pretty much always going to be an important stat. It's difficult to do damage when one cannot hit things, no matter the weapon.

[Snowy_One]

-2 MT is not 'small' especially when a character's saving grace is that they can hit hard and accurately.

Whatever. Just drop down a upgrade that allows me to get it back to 100% SKL and I'll buy it.

[Rothene]

Seriously, in the tier below the crossbow we have weapons that allow people to add on MAG to their STR and has the option to toggle between melee and ranged, a weapon that allows half of the STR stat to be used for DEF as well, a weapon that both boosts hit and allows for amazing doubling (especially if upgraded), one that allows people to freaking alter the outcome of dice rolls of their enemy, ones with 25% MT boosts, a weapon that does the exact same thing as the crossbow except doubles far easier and all I have to give up is one or two rounds of non-counters that didn't matter anyways the way things were going, a ranged weapon that had faster doubling and one that a character could switch out for another weapon with no downsides if he wasn't fighting at range, and of those, the ONLY one Robin could even use if she were to give up her crossbow is the combat knife and I am 100% positive I would have to buy something else to even gain access to it in the first place.

Add Mag to their Str? That's 2 stats to achieve damage decent damage. Note that Mireille isn't defending as well as a knight should be, yet have crap hit rates, doesn't deal damage anywhere near the damage of others and has even worse damage when attacking at range. Every point to Mag is almost a waste because it serves the same purpose as Str does. Hence it becomes redundant.

Look at the perspective of polarised attackers(I pick Archer,aince they are Robin's class): Simplified: HP: 3 Mt: Hit: 5 AS: 5 Eva: 3 DEF: 1 RES: 1

HP: 15 STR: 15 MAG: 0 SKL: 21 SPD: 6 LCK: 5 DEF: 1 RES: 1 Uses Sacred Weapon Simplified: HP: 45 Mt: 26 Hit: 21 AS: 6 Eva: 11(Can evade the one below easily but not so for the third and fourth) DEF: 1 RES: 1

HP: 15 STR: 15 MAG: 12 SKL: 9 SPD: 6 LCK: 5 DEF: 1 RES: 1 Uses Arcane Bow Simplified: HP: 45 Mt: 27 Hit: 9(expect to hit lots of things, and when you switch to precise weapon, see what your High Mag does for you) AS: 6 Eva: 11 DEF: 1 RES: 1

HP: 15 STR: 3 MAG: 0 SKL: 21 SPD: 18 LCK: 5 DEF: 1 RES: 1 Uses Rifle(tier equivalent, and if you have large back and ammo pouches, you can shoot enough times to last 5 rounds, which is as you said sometime ago as long as the battle needs) Simplified: HP: 45 Mt: 42 Hit: 21 AS: 18(doubles the other two) Eva: 23(has a chance of evading the other two) DEF: 1 RES: 1

HP: 15 STR: 3 MAG: 0 SKL: 21 SPD: 18 LCK: 5 DEF: 1 RES: 1 Uses Crossbow(a low tier weapon) Simplified: HP: 45 Mt: 16 Hit: 21 AS: 18(doubles the first two) Eva: 23(has a chance of evading the first two) DEF: 1 RES: 1

If you can't see what I'm trying to show you snowy, then it's not worth my time to explain further. So, have fun with the Arcane weapon and pumping all your mag, because if you don't put enough points into Mag, you damage is worthless.

[roymbrog]

Roth, I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to point out. Are you comparing character builds...?

[Rothene]

Well, Snowy complained about the Imbued weapon series. If you build your character for it, you're losing out a lot. Notice how powerful the pure Skill focused build can be? And a low tier weapon such as a Crossbow can actually make the character stand up to Tier 4 Sacred Weapon users if proof enough that with it, you pretty much won't be needing other weapon types.

[roymbrog]

Imbued weapons are really only useful for enemies and non-humans. I don't see why he would bring that up. >_>

Edited November 7, 2011 by roymbrog

[Snowy_One]

Because it is a weapon anyone who is using a SKL-type weapon is effectivally shut off from facing unless they poured a lot of points into STR/MAG for no reason at all (since SKL determines their damage).

Edit: Also, the crossbow is not 'low tier'. It's a Tier 3 weapon.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Snowy_One

[GoD]

Less argue and more posting.

[roymbrog]

I'm at school, I don't have time to do a decent post.

[ReformBlade]

Bring Z back, his show was hilarious!

[Snowy_One]

I believe Robin gained 13 points for that last battle (10 for objective, 3 for Shadrak's defend, 5 for gabbie's kill, and -5 for PP death). Is this accurate?

[-Cynthia-]

Yes

[GoD]

Wait Z had a show? Tell me!?

[roymbrog]

I gotta go somewhere so I'll be on later than usual. Probably by 9pm EST though.