Pokemon Yellow Ratings

[Venusaur]

This project of mine is quite similar to the character ranking topics in many FE boards. These rankings will hopefully tell which Pokemon are the most efficient, and at what times to use them in Pokemon Yellow. Feedback is greatly appreciated!

Baseline Rules

1. The only major glitch allowed is the Safari Zone Pokemon in Cinnibar one. Pikachu's happiness will still be maxed as soon as possible with the Potion at full health. So no Missingno or infinite Master Balls. Any situations implied must be able to be recreated fairly easily on an actual cartridge sans Gameshark.

2. Trade evolutions are considered, but usually in their own score.

3. This is not a solo, one Pokemon will not sweep the entire game, and levels are assumed to be reasonable.

4. All HMs are considered to be obtained and eventually used.

5. The Game Corner is not always skipped, but there is an opportunity cost for not skipping it.

6. Efficiency is hard to define in this game, but we're not going for absolute maximum efficiency, but a more casual efficiency, which leaves wiggle room for Pokemon choices. However high opportunity costs hurt a Pokemon's rating greatly, and we are not doing stupid things like grind for an hour in the grass to have a Venusaur at Misty's Gym, even though Venusaur is incredibly awesome.

Pikachu

This electric mouse is your first Pokemon, with the best availability in the game. Its offense is decent enough in the beginning, due to hitting Special rather than defense, frying common Pidgey and uncommon Spearow. Its frailty will prove a thorn in your side from the beginning, due to its low HP and Defense. Despite this it’s your only Electric until Magnemite, so it has unique utility. Despite being near useless during Brock’s Gym, Pikachu is quite good during Misty’s Gym, being one of your most powerful attackers along with the ability to cripple with Thunder Wave.

This is where the good times end. Pikachu is ineffective during Lt. Surge and Erika, and until it learns Thunderbolt at Lv. 26 or via TM its damage is starting to fall by the wayside. Despite having a 142 effective Base Power move, it’s further hurt by the fact that it has no evolution, meaning it's stuck with its terrible base stats.

After you reach Route 10 you can replace Pikachu with Magnemite and slap the Thunderbolt TM on it to get a much better Electric that actually evolves, so Pikachu is mainly limited to the early-game. Still, it is invaluable during those early stages, especially when so few can hit Flying-types super-effectively.

Pikachu: 6/10

Pidgey/Pidgeotto

These two Pokemon, despite being in the same evolutionary family, have completely different usages and usefulness.

Pidgey is one of the earliest Pokemon you can catch, at Lv. 6 on Route 1, and the first Flying-type. However, it learns no Flying-type moves until the weak Wing Attack at Lv. 28, if it stayed a Pidgey, while it learns it at 31 if a Pidgeotto. However, Pidgey has no hope of ever reaching that level, with terrible offense and a movepool that is practically non-existant. Its evolution at Lv. 18 hardly helps things in comparison to its much better rival Spearow, if it even gets there at all. When it finally does learn Wing Attack it only has 35 Base Power, worse than Gust.

Pidgeotto, on the other hand, is a different story. Due to Yellow Version more matching the TV show, Pidgeotto is available in Viridian Forest at Lv. 9. It has nice bulk for its join-time, and its offense is about on par with the rest of your team, helping with Sand-Attacks and chipping with Gust. However this novelty fades quickly as more Pokemon become available and evolutions happen around it, while it’s only evolution is at a laughable Lv. 36. After Mt. Moon it’s usefulness has faded, its bulk now completely average and its offense terrible.

Pidgey: 3/10

Pidgeotto 4/10

Edited February 9, 2011 by Venusaur

[dondon151]

Are you sure Pikachu can evolve even with the glitch? I seem to recall that he can't, since the game still treats it as if the player is using a Thunderstone on Pikachu.

[Venusaur]

Are you sure Pikachu can evolve even with the glitch? I seem to recall that he can't, since the game still treats it as if the player is using a Thunderstone on Pikachu.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_minor_glitches#Evolutionary_stone_glitch

Pokémon can be evolved without the use of an evolutionary stone, provided that the player has sent out a Pokémon with the equivalent identifier of the relevant evolutionary stone item and finishes the battle with that Pokémon in the same battle that a Pokémon that evolves using an evolutionary stone levels up.

The starter Pikachu from Pokémon Yellow is no exception to this glitch and will still evolve into a Raichu, if it levels up and the player switches to Growlithe, finishing the battle.

Some glitch Pokémon with unusual evolutionary flags may evolve this way according to the game 'after exposure to an item' which isn't an evolutionary stone.

Bulbapedia is usually very reliable on this sort of thing, but I could try testing it on my own with a savestate just in case.

The other Pokemon needed for this type of evolution are Onix for simulating a Water Stone, Exeggutor for simulating a Moon Stone and Psyduck for the Leaf Stone. The Fire Stone needs a very specific form of Missingno, and is not usable without Gameshark.

And since I have it done, here's Rattata:

Rattata

Another Route 1 Pokemon, and much better than Pidgey. Rattata seems like it’s in the same rut as Pidgey, except with Tail Whip instead of Sand Attack. Truthfully Rattata isn’t contributing much until it reaches Lv. 14 when it gets its secret weapon: Hyper Fang. This move allows it to decimate the early game with an effective 120 Base Power. And when it hits Lv. 20 it evolves into Raticate to keep up with ever increasing enemy defenses. After a while its offense will slow down considerably, and with no extra potential, can be safely benched after about Erika’s Gym. It can also run novelty moves like Water Gun, but those are better used on other Pokemon with better Special.

Rattata: 7/10

Edited January 25, 2011 by Venusaur

[General Spoon]

You're going to be rating the earlygame Ivysaur and earlygame Mew, correct?

[Venusaur]

You're going to be rating the earlygame Ivysaur and earlygame Mew, correct?

Mew Glitch isn't going to be considered for obvious reasons, (that and it's hard to manipulate without Ditto). Earlygame Ivysaur will essentially be the Bulbasaur from Cerulean, which is quite good, but a bit underleveled. I'll add in the OP that the only glitch that will be used is the Evolution Stone glitch and maybe the Safari Zone in Cinnibar one.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Venusaur

[General Spoon]

Mew Glitch isn't going to be considered for obvious reasons, (that and it's hard to manipulate). Earlygame Ivysaur will essentially be the Bulbasaur from Cerulean, which is quite good, but a bit underleveled. I'll add in the OP that the only glitch that will be used is the Evolution Stone glitch and maybe the Safari Zone in Cinnibar one.

When I said "earlygame Ivysaur" I meant the Lv1 one you can make the game spit out for you as a wild pokemon in the Viridian Forest as a glitch. It will level up immediately to 100 after battle, evolve, and Tackle Brock's pokemon to death.

EDIT: Its really the same process to make the game spit out a Mew for you.

Edited January 26, 2011 by General Spoon

[dondon151]

Bulbapedia is usually very reliable on this sort of thing, but I could try testing it on my own with a savestate just in case.

You probably should. I distinctly recall another reputable source claiming that Pikachu can't evolve through this method (I think it was glitchcity.info), and there are threads around with ambiguous responses.

[Venusaur]

You probably should. I distinctly recall another reputable source claiming that Pikachu can't evolve through this method (I think it was glitchcity.info), and there are threads around with ambiguous responses.

I couldn't find the topic, but I did test this, and Pikachu did not evolve, nor did a Weepinbell that I also tested. The evolutionary stone glitch seems to be fixed in Yellow.

EDIT: It's Nidoran time.

Nidoran M/F

In FE8, Seth is the best character in the game, due to joining early and being your best combat unit throughout the whole game. Both Nidorans are essentially Seth, trading immediate early use (they do have to level up to Lv. 12 to start the ball rolling) for lategame OHKOs, a winning trade overall. Levels 2-12 are the only bad points for these two, and it only gets better when they essentially get a dual evolution at Lv. 16, gaining defenses that make Pidgeotto fly into the box with shame and offenses that make Mankey give up in frustration.

Right off the bat after evolution they can use TM01 (Mega Punch) and TM 12 (Water Gun) to get perfect early-game coverage, hitting everything at least neutral. Even against Misty Mega Punch is a 2HKO with Nidoking, and Nidoqueen can just pick up TM05 (Mega Kick) if it can't match the offense of Nidoking. Thrash/Body Slam at Lv. 23 also makes another Normal-type option to consider, especially for Nidoqueen. Also, Thunderbolt opens up after Lt. Surge to decimate Slowpokes and fliers, the former usually difficult for most Pokemon to deal with. With Normal moves decimating every non-Rock type and Water Gun for non-Rock types, things are looking pretty good even without Thunderbolt added on! And after Rock Tunnel, things get even better.

At Celadon Department Store you obtain TM13 (Ice Beam) just in time for Erika, and for $2000 (an insignificant cost) you get the first part of the Final Solution: TM 07 (Horn Drill) With a single X Accuracy, if you're faster than the opponent every move has 99.6% accuracy, due to RBY mechanics. Conveniently enough, the Department store also sells X Accuracys and X Speeds. And in Silph Co. you can finally use the Ground-type with Earthquake, another decimator, especially against Blaine.

Only after your last fight with Giovanni does the final part of the Final Solution open up: TM27 (Fissure) This lends your Nido perfect OHKO coverage, allowing it to steamroll through the E4 after a few turns of setup. The choice of your Nido depends on which part of the game matters more, the beginning or the end. Nidoking is much better in the beginning due to that higher attack stat, but Nidoqueen's defenses help minimize healing during lategame setups.

There are slight costs to all of this, but the Nidos use the TMs and items so well that you won't notice, and the E4 slaughtering saves on Full Restores and Revives enough to cover the cost of X items. Even if you don't give your Nido its best options (why you would I'd never know...) it's still immensely useful and able to fill holes in your team single-handedly just with its massive movepool. The best Pokemon in Yellow may be a shared honor.

Nidoran M: 10/10

Nidoran F: 10/10

Edited February 9, 2011 by Venusaur

[dondon151]

Nidoran M deserves a 10/10. Best Pokemon in Yellow. You get a Nidoking before Misty and he can learn, like, everything, plus he also has the movepool to abuse the X Accuracy + OHKO glitch.

[Venusaur]

Nidoran M deserves a 10/10. Best Pokemon in Yellow. You get a Nidoking before Misty and he can learn, like, everything, plus he also has the movepool to abuse the X Accuracy + OHKO glitch.

I am unfamiliar about the X Accuracy + OHKO glitch, but while both Nidos have an incredible movepool, many of the TMs are wanted by many different Pokemon with better Special (Nidoking's is only 75). Rhyhorn wants EQ and Rock Slide (Golem, if obtained, also wants the latter), Moltres and Growlithe both want Fire Blast, Squirtle and Gyarados want Bubblebeam early on, and Ice Beam is welcome on many Water types, including Cloyster who doesn't want to stay a Shellder until Lv. 50.

For now I'll bump both up a point, due to that I can see them snagging Blizzard and Thunder, but both are a bit unreliable.

[Zkirsche]

I am unfamiliar about the X Accuracy + OHKO glitch, but while both Nidos have an incredible movepool, many of the TMs are wanted by many different Pokemon with better Special (Nidoking's is only 75). Rhyhorn wants EQ and Rock Slide (Golem, if obtained, also wants the latter), Moltres and Growlithe both want Fire Blast, Squirtle and Gyarados want Bubblebeam early on, and Ice Beam is welcome on many Water types, including Cloyster who doesn't want to stay a Shellder until Lv. 50.

Nidoking can get Earthquake because of his better speed (not to mention he'd be a better level), and we shouldn't be using all of those different pokemon in the first place, so many TM's will probably be free simply because there's no one better to give it to.

Not to mention Nidoking can learn surf/strength if you want a HM whore.

After Koga their usefulness has likely declined enough that you should consider benching the one you're using.

But does it, though? The only gym leaders/elite four members he truly stuggles against are Sabrina/Loreal, the rest he normally has type match ups against (blaine vs ground, nido can surf giovanni, bruno vs poison, Nido's EQ vs Agatha.)

[Venusaur]

Nidoking can get Earthquake because of his better speed (not to mention he'd be a better level), and we shouldn't be using all of those different pokemon in the first place, so many TM's will probably be free simply because there's no one better to give it to.

Not to mention Nidoking can learn surf/strength if you want a HM whore.

Some of those Pokemon do benefit more from the TM than Nidoking, and at least one or two will probably be used. Also, keep in mind that Gyarados can pull this type of coverage with much better stats and a Water STAB, though also with an annoying training period and without Earthquake (why it can't learn Earthquake in Generation I is something I'll never know...).

As to what your chosen Nido gets, Surf is probably a given, and it probably could snag Earthquake, which appears at Silph Co and its only competition is Sandslash and Rhydon. It appears that I've greatly underestimated them and what moves they could snag. I'll be changing the latter half of their review.

But does it, though? The only gym leaders/elite four members he truly stuggles against are Sabrina/Loreal, the rest he normally has type match ups against (blaine vs ground, nido can surf giovanni, bruno vs poison, Nido's EQ vs Agatha.)

Blaine is a given, but Giovanni hits you SE also with Dugtrio, his Nidos and Rhydon. I wouldn't consider it at an advantage there. You can just have your Psychic take care of Bruno. Agatha does have Psychic moves on her Haunter and her Lv. 60 Gengar, and Golbat flies, so it's not all smooth sailing there. Nido is only useful on one of Lance's Dragonairs and Aerodactyl, and is only effective against Blue's Jolteon/Magneton and Ninetales/Flareon. It's likely not going to be ideal against the E4, so maybe then is the time to bench them, Base 85 Attack and Base 75 Special (King) or Base 82 Attack and Base 75 Special (Queen) likely won't carry them through.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Venusaur

[Venusaur]

And since I think that the above post has too much text for me to deliver an update within it, I hope this counts as a project thread.

Spearow

This Flying-type is likely your first useful one, due to Peck. The common Bug Catchers get laid to waste by this, though its offense is merely average when not Super Effective. Peck is also effective against the occasional Grass-type, securing it a niche role. This niche role, however, is all it has due to its middling movepool, even after it evolves into Fearow at Lv. 20. It does have late-game potential with Drill Peck at Lv. 34, but by this time the superior Doduo exists and outclasses Fearow soundly. Ironically enough, Doduo learns Drill Peck earlier, at Lv. 30!

Spearow: 6.5/10

Mankey

Your first Fighting-type, and what a powerhouse! Low Kick is even more powerful than Nidoran M/F's (but not Nidoking/queen's) Double Kick, and it’s learned at only Lv. 9! This makes it your best option against Brock. And just when things couldn’t get better it learns Karate Chop at Lv.15, which due to the critical formula in Gen I, almost always criticals due to Mankey’s good speed. Its offense does lag a bit in the mid-game until it grabs a Submission TM and an evolution at Lv. 28, but even then it’s still quite effective. However, Hitmonlee can be gotten around this time and is a much superior option, but Primeape is still usable up until the end.

Mankey: 7/10

Edited February 4, 2011 by Venusaur

[Zkirsche]

Blaine is a given, but Giovanni hits you SE also with Dugtrio, his Nidos and Rhydon. I wouldn't consider it at an advantage there. You can just have your Psychic take care of Bruno. Agatha does have Psychic moves on her Haunter and her Lv. 60 Gengar, and Golbat flies, so it's not all smooth sailing there. Nido is only useful on one of Lance's Dragonairs and Aerodactyl, and is only effective against Blue's Jolteon/Magneton and Ninetales/Flareon. It's likely not going to be ideal against the E4, so maybe then is the time to bench them, Base 85 Attack and Base 75 Special (King) or Base 82 Attack and Base 75 Special (Queen) likely won't carry them through.

He doesn't need ground type against Golbat, he can use other things (like surf or body slam or something). Technically speaking, he doesn't actually stuggle come lategame, he's just not the ha4xest thing ever anymore. Being versatile enough to learn mny TM's means his usefulnesss isn't limited by the other pokemon in your party as much. Yes, we could use a psychic, but we might as well argue Pikachu higher for loreal spam or something. Comparatively, their very, very good pokemon, if not two of the very best.

[dondon151]

I am unfamiliar about the X Accuracy + OHKO glitch, but while both Nidos have an incredible movepool, many of the TMs are wanted by many different Pokemon with better Special (Nidoking's is only 75). Rhyhorn wants EQ and Rock Slide (Golem, if obtained, also wants the latter), Moltres and Growlithe both want Fire Blast, Squirtle and Gyarados want Bubblebeam early on, and Ice Beam is welcome on many Water types, including Cloyster who doesn't want to stay a Shellder until Lv. 50.

For now I'll bump both up a point, due to that I can see them snagging Blizzard and Thunder, but both are a bit unreliable.

Nidoking doesn't mind having average Spc when he has the type coverage to hit almost everything SE. I have problems with your argument of competition, anyway.

Rhyhorn is slow, not obtainable until after the Poke Flute, and doesn't evolve until level 42. Terrible Pokemon. Nidoking doesn't want Rock Slide, either.

Growlithe joins super late at a low level, and is not a good competitor for Fire Blast. Moltres also doesn't really need Fire Blast because Fire Spin is good enough if he's faster than the opponent.

Squirtle joins at level 10 after the third badge. Terrible. Gyarados has the inevitable "help I'm a Magikarp" period. Also terrible.

Nidoking is not good just because he has a massive movepool. He joins before the first badge. He actually does well against Brock. He reaches his final evolutionary form before the second badge. He'll have a massive level lead on any new wild Pokemon caught in the game after the first badge. That automatically makes him one of the best candidates for the highly competed TMs because he needs no additional EXP input to reach a point where he does well with them.

The X Accuracy + OHKO glitch is, in a nutshell, an exploit of the X Accuracy mechanics in RBY. X Accuracy raises the accuracy of all moves to 100 (or 99.6). It doesn't raise Accuracy by 1 stage like in other Pokemon games. So given that Nidoking is at least faster than his opponents, give him an X Accuracy and watch him go to town with Horn Drill. After the eighth badge, he can OHKO everything in the game with a combination of Horn Drill and Fissure.

If Nidoking doesn't get a 10, then who is going to get a 10? There is a reason why the current Pokemon Yellow speedrun is virtually a Nidoking solo. He's just so good. Even disregarding a speedrun, his availability and versatility make him easily the best Pokemon in the game. He has:

- Double Kick at level 12 for SE damage on Brock

- TM12 (Water Gun) for Mt. Moon hikers if desired

- Moon Stone in Mt. Moon for level 16 Nidoking

- Thrash at level 23 or TM01 (Mega Punch) for high damage on Misty

- TM28 (Dig) for STAB and SE damage on Lt. Surge

- TM08 (Body Slam) for consistent high damage attack

- TM24 (Thunderbolt) for SE damage on water types

- TM13 (Ice Beam) for SE damage on Erika and Giovanni

- TM26 (Earthquake) for STAB and SE damage on Blaine - kind of redundant with Dig, though

- TM07 (Horn Drill) for OHKOs on Sabrina and Elite Four

- TM27 (Fissure) for OHKOs on Elite Four

I mean, come on. You gave Primeape an 8. Primeape is terrible past earlygame. 65/60/60 defenses, markedly inferior type coverage, and a worse typing as well.

Edited January 27, 2011 by dondon151

[Venusaur]

Nidoking doesn't mind having average Spc when he has the type coverage to hit almost everything SE. I have problems with your argument of competition, anyway.

Rhyhorn is slow, not obtainable until after the Poke Flute, and doesn't evolve until level 42. Terrible Pokemon. Nidoking doesn't want Rock Slide, either.

Growlithe joins super late at a low level, and is not a good competitor for Fire Blast. Moltres also doesn't really need Fire Blast because Fire Spin is good enough if he's faster than the opponent.

Squirtle joins at level 10 after the third badge. Terrible. Gyarados has the inevitable "help I'm a Magikarp" period. Also terrible.

I wouldn't say Gyarados is terrible just because it has to deal with being a Magikarp for 15 levels. It'd probably be around Rock Tunnel that you're evolving Magikarp, and while it performs better on the special side, the physical side isn't as good as Nidoking due to being essentially mono-Normal with basically no coverage, but an insane Attack stat to cover for that. Granted that it has a huge opportunity cost of taking around over 9000 EXP without contributing, but not terrible for what you get.

Nidoking is not good just because he has a massive movepool. He joins before the first badge. He actually does well against Brock. He reaches his final evolutionary form before the second badge. He'll have a massive level lead on any new wild Pokemon caught in the game after the first badge. That automatically makes him one of the best candidates for the highly competed TMs because he needs no additional EXP input to reach a point where he does well with them.

I don't really know how much of a "massive" level lead we'll have, due to this not being a solo. Reaching Double Kick for Brock without additional training is extremely unlikely, but barely possible.

The X Accuracy + OHKO glitch is, in a nutshell, an exploit of the X Accuracy mechanics in RBY. X Accuracy raises the accuracy of all moves to 100 (or 99.6). It doesn't raise Accuracy by 1 stage like in other Pokemon games. So given that Nidoking is at least faster than his opponents, give him an X Accuracy and watch him go to town with Horn Drill. After the eighth badge, he can OHKO everything in the game with a combination of Horn Drill and Fissure.

You have to be faster than the opponent for this to work, and while it is extremely powerful (OHKOs, who doesn't like them?) it is situational in that you have to use a turn to X Accuracy up and be faster, and there also exists a money cost of $950 for each X Accuracy. It is an incredibly nice feature, and I'm going to abuse this for sure on my next playthrough.

If Nidoking doesn't get a 10, then who is going to get a 10? There is a reason why the current Pokemon Yellow speedrun is virtually a Nidoking solo. He's just so good. Even disregarding a speedrun, his availability and versatility make him easily the best Pokemon in the game. He has:

- Double Kick at level 12 for SE damage on Brock

- TM12 (Water Gun) for Mt. Moon hikers if desired

- Moon Stone in Mt. Moon for level 16 Nidoking

- Thrash at level 23 or TM01 (Mega Punch) for high damage on Misty

- TM28 (Dig) for STAB and SE damage on Lt. Surge

- TM08 (Body Slam) for consistent high damage attack

- TM24 (Thunderbolt) for SE damage on water types

- TM13 (Ice Beam) for SE damage on Erika and Giovanni

- TM26 (Earthquake) for STAB and SE damage on Blaine - kind of redundant with Dig, though

- TM07 (Horn Drill) for OHKOs on Sabrina and Elite Four

- TM27 (Fissure) for OHKOs on Elite Four

Water Gun is redundant with Double Kick, and Nidoran M can't even learn it, but it's Moon Stone is a gimme. Mega Punch is another one I can see it grab along with Dig, but be aware that Starmie can Bubblebeam you. Lt. Surge is a pushover, especially with Dugtrio existing, and IB is a bit more questionable, but I could see it getting it, but it doesn't need EQ.

OHKOs, however, aren't going to happen every gym battle. Sabrina's Kadabra and Alakazam outspeed you and will likely OHKO you with Psychic. Giovanni's Dugtrio is too fast to be outsped and will wreck you with Earthquake. Lorelei's Dewgong can hit you hard while you set up, and Jynx will still outspeed and hit hard with Ice Punch (it doesn't have Psychic.) There's lolBruno, but Agatha's non-Arbok Pokemon are very fast. Lance's Gyarados has Hydro Pump, and Aerodactyl outspeeds you. And finally, Blue's Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOs. We aren't going to have a Lv. 70 Nidoking by this point unless it's a solo, which this is not. Plus, OHKOs can only happen 10-16 times, depending on how many PP Ups or Ethers/Elixirs you give it, but again, those do have a cost (the former more than the latter).

Nidoking's position really, really depends on if it can get its TMs, and even it has its weaknesses. I don't want to give out 10s like candy, but it just has too much of a cost attached to it, along with its weaknesses.

A Pokemon I'd give a 10 to is Zapdos, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game when it exists. Obtainable right after Surf, but most feasibly after Silph Co. after you get the Master Ball. It's the best thing that you can possibly use it on (Mewtwo is after the end of the game, and is thus not considered), and it comes out of the box at Lv. 50 with Drill Peck and learns Thunder a level later, along with crazy stats all across the board (Thunderbolt is not needed, but is a welcome addition). It's durable beyond belief during the very difficult Sabrina, performs amazingly against Blaine, and can hit every non-Rock type of Giovanni's with Drill Peck. For the E4 it demolishes Lorelei, only has trouble with Onix on Bruno, drills Agatha's Ghosts and shocks Lance's non-Dragons right out of the sky (It still does great against Dragonite, though.) And there's Blue's Alakazam, Exeggutor and Water-type to demolish also. It needs no TMs, needs no leveling and only costs you the Master Ball and maybe some PP Ups.

Nidoking's review has been rewritten.

I mean, come on. You gave Primeape an 8. Primeape is terrible past earlygame. 65/60/60 defenses, markedly inferior type coverage, and a worse typing as well.

I probably overestimated it. I'll drop it down to a 7.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Venusaur

[Venusaur]

And again, the above post has too much text to fit a review, so I'm still hoping that this is a project thread. I'll try not to make this a habit.

Caterpie

Almost completely useless when you catch it, Caterpie needs some real training before it can be of any use at all. Its real use comes when it evolves into Butterfree at Lv. 10. With Confusion straight out of the box, Butterfree can take out the many Poison-types after Pewter City, and is quite effective against Brock, though being the worst of the 4 options due to the difficulty of training it. At Lv. 15, Butterfree gets Sleep Powder, likely being your faster user of it at the time. With many resistances against the Poison types and Fighting types it encounters it’s a good choice up until Rock Tunnel, which by then you will have a real Psychic rather than a copy like Butterfree. Still, it’s quite worthwhile when compared to Beedrill.

Caterpie: 7.5/10

[General Horace]

Nidoking has 85 base speed, IIRC. It says 75 in your review.

[Venusaur]

Nidoking has 85 base speed, IIRC. It says 75 in your review.

Fixed, thanks for catching it.

@ myself for making such a simple error. I also took the opportunity to clarify a few things.

[dondon151]

I don't really know how much of a "massive" level lead we'll have, due to this not being a solo. Reaching Double Kick for Brock without additional training is extremely unlikely, but barely possible.

The levels of your party Pokemon will almost always be much higher than the levels of wild Pokemon, even assuming the use of a party of 4 combat Pokemon. RBY does not scale wild Pokemon levels very well. I mean, you're catching level 25 Pokemon in the Safari Zone and level 7 Jigglypuffs outside of Celadon City.

You have to be faster than the opponent for this to work, and while it is extremely powerful (OHKOs, who doesn't like them?) it is situational in that you have to use a turn to X Accuracy up and be faster, and there also exists a money cost of $950 for each X Accuracy. It is an incredibly nice feature, and I'm going to abuse this for sure on my next playthrough.

Let's say you have a Pokemon that 2HKOs 3 of 5 opponent Pokemon and OHKOs the rest. Nidoking OHKOing with only 1 or 2 turns of setup is superior to this. Considering that you'll end up having to face relatively durable Pokemon like, say, Gary's Exeggutor, Nidoking plows through them with only 1, maybe 2 turns of setup.

Second, the cost of an X Accuracy is negligible. You get so much money in this game. Even on a speedrun with avoiding trainer battles, money is of no concern.

Water Gun is redundant with Double Kick, and Nidoran M can't even learn it, but it's Moon Stone is a gimme. Mega Punch is another one I can see it grab along with Dig, but be aware that Starmie can Bubblebeam you. Lt. Surge is a pushover, especially with Dugtrio existing, and IB is a bit more questionable, but I could see it getting it, but it doesn't need EQ.

My mistake with Nidoran M learning Water Gun. It's better than Double Kick against rock/ground types, though. Depending on your level, you may not cleanly 2HKO enemies like Gravelers in Rock Tunnel with Double Kick while Water Gun is a sure OHKO. Also, the regulars on #feto informed me that Nidoking doesn't learn Dig in RBY. My mistake again. So EQ is the best choice for STAB.

Against Misty, a high enough leveled Nidoking can cleanly 2HKO (IIRC) Starmie with Thrash and survives a Bubblebeam. It actually probably does as well as Pikachu in that respect.

The problem with using Dugtrio for Lt. Surge is, obviously, that Dugtrio takes time to find and catch (or evolve). Nidoking is there already.

OHKOs, however, aren't going to happen every gym battle. Sabrina's Kadabra and Alakazam outspeed you and will likely OHKO you with Psychic. Giovanni's Dugtrio is too fast to be outsped and will wreck you with Earthquake. Lorelei's Dewgong can hit you hard while you set up, and Jynx will still outspeed and hit hard with Ice Punch (it doesn't have Psychic.) There's lolBruno, but Agatha's non-Arbok Pokemon are very fast. Lance's Gyarados has Hydro Pump, and Aerodactyl outspeeds you. And finally, Blue's Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOs. We aren't going to have a Lv. 70 Nidoking by this point unless it's a solo, which this is not. Plus, OHKOs can only happen 10-16 times, depending on how many PP Ups or Ethers/Elixirs you give it, but again, those do have a cost (the former more than the latter).

Sabrina, fortunately, leads with an Abra that does nearly nothing. Use X items and sweep.

Giovanni's Dugtrio outspeeds with Earthquake, but Giovanni tends to use Guard Spec. for no reason. Nidoking sets up best on Persian, but there's little reason to use Horn Drill in this battle due to ground and water weaks.

Lorelei's Jynx actually does not outspeed a Nidoking at around the same level. Jynx has 10 higher base Spe but also doesn't have any stat EXP. I'm not sure if its DVs are any good either.

Agatha requires an X Speed.

Lance's Gyarados does not outspeed a Nidoking at around level 53, maybe even lower. Gyarados has 4 lower base Spe than Nidoking and also doesn't have any stat EXP.

Nidoking's position really, really depends on if it can get its TMs, and even it has its weaknesses. I don't want to give out 10s like candy, but it just has too much of a cost attached to it, along with its weaknesses.

You don't have to give out 10s like candy. Nidoking deserves the only 10 in the game.

A Pokemon I'd give a 10 to is Zapdos, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game when it exists. Obtainable right after Surf, but most feasibly after Silph Co. after you get the Master Ball.

See, Zapdos is already absent for over half of the game. That's not 10 material.

I still highly disagree with your opinion on Nidoking. You make it sound like it's a bad thing to pump resources into a great Pokemon. The tone of your writing seems to imply more of a grudging concession than praise of the Pokemon itself.

[Venusaur]

The levels of your party Pokemon will almost always be much higher than the levels of wild Pokemon, even assuming the use of a party of 4 combat Pokemon. RBY does not scale wild Pokemon levels very well. I mean, you're catching level 25 Pokemon in the Safari Zone and level 7 Jigglypuffs outside of Celadon City.

There are other routes that do have Pokemon that aren't ridiculously low leveled. Route 11 has Pokemon from 17-20, Route 10 has Lv. 22 Magnemites, and Route 16 goes up to Lv. 26. And, of course, Dugtrio exists at a ridiculous level.

Let's say you have a Pokemon that 2HKOs 3 of 5 opponent Pokemon and OHKOs the rest. Nidoking OHKOing with only 1 or 2 turns of setup is superior to this. Considering that you'll end up having to face relatively durable Pokemon like, say, Gary's Exeggutor, Nidoking plows through them with only 1, maybe 2 turns of setup.

Second, the cost of an X Accuracy is negligible. You get so much money in this game. Even on a speedrun with avoiding trainer battles, money is of no concern.

10 X Accuracys is $9500, and X Speeds add just a bit more to this. You do get a lot of money, but I wouldn't say the cost is completely negligible, but it does exist.

My mistake with Nidoran M learning Water Gun. It's better than Double Kick against rock/ground types, though. Depending on your level, you may not cleanly 2HKO enemies like Gravelers in Rock Tunnel with Double Kick while Water Gun is a sure OHKO. Also, the regulars on #feto informed me that Nidoking doesn't learn Dig in RBY. My mistake again. So EQ is the best choice for STAB.

This is probably the biggest blow against Nidoking. It's power is drastically reduced without Dig, and it won't get as many OHKOs, meaning that enemies can wear it down in longer dungeons. It is also now not the best option against Lt. Surge, as every other ground type that gets Dig is now better, due to OHKOing.

Against Misty, a high enough leveled Nidoking can cleanly 2HKO (IIRC) Starmie with Thrash and survives a Bubblebeam. It actually probably does as well as Pikachu in that respect.

The problem with using Dugtrio for Lt. Surge is, obviously, that Dugtrio takes time to find and catch (or evolve). Nidoking is there already.

We have to go through Diglett's Cave anyways to get Flash, and the HP Up found nearby is essentially a free Nugget. It's not completely unreasonable that we'll encounter a Dugtrio and catch it, especially with your Flying-type nullifying Dig. The reward is well worth it. I do wonder how good Dugtrio and Nidoking would work together as OHKOers in crime, with Dugtrio getting Fissure and Nidoking getting Horn Drill. Dugtrio does kind of cover Psychics with its high speed and natural EQ, and against certain opponents it doesn't need X Speeds when Nidoking does. In that role, Nidoking would be used when more bulk is necessary or when the opponents are slow/fliers.

Sabrina, fortunately, leads with an Abra that does nearly nothing. Use X items and sweep.

Giovanni's Dugtrio outspeeds with Earthquake, but Giovanni tends to use Guard Spec. for no reason. Nidoking sets up best on Persian, but there's little reason to use Horn Drill in this battle due to ground and water weaks.

Lorelei's Jynx actually does not outspeed a Nidoking at around the same level. Jynx has 10 higher base Spe but also doesn't have any stat EXP. I'm not sure if its DVs are any good either.

Agatha requires an X Speed.

Lance's Gyarados does not outspeed a Nidoking at around level 53, maybe even lower. Gyarados has 4 lower base Spe than Nidoking and also doesn't have any stat EXP.

You don't have to give out 10s like candy. Nidoking deserves the only 10 in the game.

Sabrina's Abra can Flash you, lowering your accuracy and putting you in a dangerous spot if you should miss against Kadabra or Alakazam. Dewgong hits Nidoking pretty hard while you set up. Gengar can confuse/paralyze you with Confuse Ray/Lick. On Lance I can see that Nidoking can outspeed, so I'll concede that one.

See, Zapdos is already absent for over half of the game. That's not 10 material.

The latter half of the game is more difficult than the former half, due to trainers adding more Pokemon at higher levels to their lineups. In a way, Zapdos is a lot like Pent from FE7 if he didn't have staves but instead had better stats all across the board. A combination of it and Nidoking, now that I think about it, seems very, very effective, Zapdos covering for Psychics and other such threats. As a side note, it does makes snagging Articuno/Moltres easier if you do pursue that path.

I still highly disagree with your opinion on Nidoking. You make it sound like it's a bad thing to pump resources into a great Pokemon. The tone of your writing seems to imply more of a grudging concession than praise of the Pokemon itself.

I did write it late at night, so it could use improvements. I'll rewrite it from the ground up again.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Venusaur

[General Horace]

Nidoran can't learn water gun, but Nidorino sure can. Unless he can't in yellow and can in Red/Blue.

[Venusaur]

Nidoran can't learn water gun, but Nidorino sure can. Unless he can't in yellow and can in Red/Blue.

There's really almost no point in Nidorino learning Water Gun since it'll be instantly evolving anyways. Double Kick is good enough for Rock types until you get Surf.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Venusaur

[Zkirsche]

Except water is double effective against geodudes and you have nothing better, really.

[Venusaur]

Except water is double effective against geodudes and you have nothing better, really.

How about something that doesn't have an SE attack against Geodude? Why make Nidoking's effectiveness against Rock/Grounds go from really good to overkill when another Pokemon could go from hopeless to standing a chance? Double Kick is more than good enough until you get Surf, which is free.