Moss-Head Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Placeholder, SDS wants me to make the first post so I'll have that up in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss-Head Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Sooo, Lute and Gerik. Lute is a badass magic-using prodigy. Gerik is a mercenary. Enough said. So anyway, Lute joins in Chapter 4. Gerik joins in Chapter 10. This gives Lute an six chapters of availability over Gerik, which is a huge bonus. This is almost a third of the game, giving Lute a ton of opportunities to get Experience that Gerik simply doesn't get. In addition, he extra availability is during the earlygame (the hardest part of the game), making her more useful during the early game than Gerik is during the midgame when he first joins. Let's look at how Lute performs when she first joins. 17 HP 6 MAG 6 SKL 7 SPD 8 LCK 3 DEF 5 RES With a Fire tome, that gives her: 11 ATK 6 AS 22 AVO 3 CRT 110 HIT 8 CEV Those are plenty good stats for the early game, she'll almost definitely make it into your party for the next several chapters. Let's look at Lute's performance in the earlygame: Chapter 4: Lute probably won't get to do much in this chapter as she joins in the middle. She's plenty useful once she joins though, as she's the only character you have besides Artur (who's probably busy on the left side of the map) that can hit the monsters on their weak Res, easily 2RKOing or 1RKOing with a bit of Neimi or Eirika support. Let's say she gains one level from picking off weakened enemies and weakening enemies. Chapter 5: Well, Lute's moderately helpful here I guess. She can easily pick off weakened units once again, but she's not especially helpful. She can help beat the bandit reinforcements if two units block the passage, or go up the left side. I think she can gain another level here. Chapter 6: Unfortunately, in the early stages of this chapter Lute's more of a liability than a help, as her weak Defense means she gets 1- or 2RKOd by nearly everything in the chapter. However, she can be quite helpful once your party starts advancing and you have a good defensive line, as hitting Res means that she'll be doing more damage than a lot of your party. I think it's safe to assume she gains another level or two from this. Chapter 7: Lute has MAJOR problems here. Ballistas will destroy her if they hit, cavaliers that can outrange and kill her run rampant, and even the boss has a Javelin. Unfortunately, I don't think she's getting any levels here. Chapter 8: Now this is where Lute can really shine. The many chokepoints on the map provide ample opportunities for Lute to snipe from behind cover, especially as she can ORKO Knights after Seth or another unit softens them up a bit. She's probably one of your best bets for taking down the Mage reinforcements, and can even hit Tirado if you get him to equip his Silver Lance. She can easily gain two, maybe even three levels from this chapter. At the route split, we take Eirika route. Chapter 9: Lute is fairly helpful in this chapter. She can easily take on Pirates and Mercenaries ORKO most of them, but the wandering Snipers can and probably will ORKO her. She can probably get another level out of this. So let's say we have a Level 9 Lute at Chapter 10, when Gerik joins at Level 10. I'm going to compare their stats here, Lute is the first column. 20.6/32 HP 11.2/14 STR/MAG 8.4/13 SKL 10.6/13 SPD 11.6/8 LUC 4.2/10 DEF 8.2/4 RES We can see here that they're decently matched, with Gerik having a slight lead. However, although it may appear that Gerik has the damage lead here, Lute's hitting Res instead of Def, which makes a huge difference as most enemies at this point have much higher Def than Res. Skill is pretty much a moot point, as both Gerik and Lute will be hitting almost all the times because of Anima's high Hit rate. The Speed difference lets Gerik double a few faster enemies, but Lute will still be doubling the majority of enemies she fights. The Luck differential is largely pointless, and Lute's extra Res lets her combat Mages better but she'll get murdered by any physical hit. That being said, one of Lute's biggest advantages at this point is her reliable ranging: as many enemies you fight midgame are Cavaliers, Soldiers and other things with 1 range, magic is truly a godsend to help deal with them. In addition, a very large number of enemies in the midgame carry Lances, leaving Gerik at a huge disadvantage unless he promotes early. However, magic users are fairly uncommon (especially as most of them are Mages), meaning that Lute can help against them too with her huge Res. Gerik can generally ORKO Mages too, but his low Res means he'll take huge amounts of damage if he can't straight out OHKO. Now for some more Chapter-by-chapter comparisons. Chapter 10: Gerik starts out isolated and won't be doing ANYTHING until you can get Tana to his stronghold. Once you do though, he'll be pretty useful for clearing out the bottom section of the map. Lute can help you clear a path to the gate, but won't be too much help in the final assault as the Ballista destroy her and she can't really do anything to Pablo. Also, note that Pablo drops your second Guiding Ring, and as Gerik comes with a Hero Crest neither of them struggle for promotion. I would say this Chapter's a TIE overall. Chapter 11: Unfortunately this chapter scares Lute. Granted, she can pick off monsters easily, as they have pathetic Res. However, archer Bonewalkers do heavy damage to her, and Venin weapons really mess with her day. I'm giving the win to GERIK here. Chapter 12: Lute and Gerik can both be fairly useful in this chapter. While Gerik can help smash your way upwards, Lute can pick off dangerous Baels while they're still in the mountains, and damage basically anything on the map severely. In addition, by this point you'll have many physical tanks that can block paths easily, but Lute is basically the only thing you have for picking off Baels in the mountains. Although it's close, I would say LUTE wins this chapter. Chapter 13: Welcome to the BRAWL. All shit aside, if you're going straight for Aias (I'm gonna assume you are), Lute's a bit more helpful than Gerik here. Reason being, if you can take out the Ballistas early (not hard if you use Seth or another Cavalier/Paladin), she can basically ORKO everything guarding Aias, which Gerik will sometimes fail to do as some of them wield Lances. As for the boss, Lute and Gerik can both damage him if he's not using his Short Spear, so pretty much even there. That being said, LUTE probably edges Gerik out just a bit here. Chapter 14: UGH. Lute's very vulnerable in the first half of this chapter. What with the Snipers in the entrance hallway and the Shaman reinforcements, she'll have a hell of a time getting through to the top part of the hallway. Gerik has a significantly easier time of this, as the Shamans can hit him but the Snipers pose much less of a threat due to his large physical bulk. However, in the second half of the map their roles are reversed. On the approach to the throne room, Lute can easily bash through the Knights in the way that Gerik can't do anything to. Lute also fares slightly better against Caryle as she can fight him at 2 range, so she won't get murdered by his crits. Honestly, I'm calling this one a TIE. Chapter 15: Good times are here again, Lute DOMINATES this map. She has full movement range, while Gerik can barely move. Lute comes in handy for fighting down the middle of the map, destroying the low-Res Fighters and Cavaliers, and generally killing everything (besides flying units) that need killing. LUTE easily takes this chapter. As a side note, I'm assuming both Lute and Gerik are definitely promoted here, if not a chapter or two before. Chapter 16: Both Lute and Gerik face some problems here, assuming they go with the main group. Gerik's main threat is from the two sages with Purge and Bolting in the throne room, both of which can do heavy damage to him. Lute faces a ORKO from any of the dangerous physical threats in the chapter, but you'll have more than enough tanks to allow Lute to stay behind a barricade and hit enemies' weak Res. Other than that there's not much to say about their performances. Just based on the fact that LUTE has less crippling flaws, I'm giving her the win here. Chapter 17: A LOL chap in any case. Lute can easily take down most of the Sages with an accompanying healer, while Gerik can blast through Warriors with no trouble at all. Honestly, there's not a huge difference in usefulness here. 'm going with Chapter 18: Gorgon eggs, wheee! In any case, honestly Gerik isn;t doing much this chapter to stand out. Sure, he can ORKO Gorgon Eggs and ORKO Gorgons safely, but then again so can everybody in your entire party (pretty much). Lute, with a tome like Shine, can do the same thing, but from 2 range and will barely take any damage in the process! I think this makes this chapter a pretty clear win for LUTE. Chapter 19: This chapter...anyways, both Lute and Gerik haves roles to play here. Gerik can block chokepoints and take hits, while Lute can snipe enemies from behind, heal, and take on Riev better. I don't think either character has a distinct advantage over the other, so I'm going to say TIE. Chapter 20: Here's where you want to start using your Sacred Twin weapons. Lute has practically NO competition for Excalibur, she's going to get it. Gerik, however, faces heavy competition for the Audhulma between Seth, Joshua, and your other Paladins, while many other units can make better use of the speed boost from Garm. As for the chapter itself, both Lute and Gerik can assist in blasting through the swarms of enemies. Lute is far better for killing Cyclopses and other physical monsters, while Gerik takes on Arch Mongalls better. However, as Lute will probably have a Sacred Twin weapon and Gerik probably won't, I'm giving LUTE the win here. Endgame: At this point, it comes down to whether Gerik has a Sacred Twin weapon or not. If he does, he can basically ORKO the enitre chapter (which Lute is doing with Excaliber anyway), meaning that they're roughly evenly matched; if not, he'll lose. However, LUTE has higher Res to help her deal with Draco Zombies, which I think gives her a narrow win over Gerik. So there ya go; it's not great (or even good), but it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) Let's get crackin guys. We're pitting Gerik, a super-manly mercenary with biceps the size of a small child against... a small child. It doesn't even seem fair. So anyway, Lute joins in Chapter 4. Gerik joins in Chapter 10. This gives Lute an six chapters of availability over Gerik, which is a huge bonus. This is almost a third of the game, giving Lute a ton of opportunities to get Experience that Gerik simply doesn't get. In addition, he extra availability is during the earlygame (the hardest part of the game), making her more useful during the early game than Gerik is during the midgame when he first joins. That's all well and good, but her availibility is nigh on nonexistant when you consider that she's pretty bad when she shows up, she's damn hard to use in her early chapters, and she shows up at the same time as a far superior magic user with a better class (Artur) no less, except Artur has all map to improve. Let's look at how Lute performs when she first joins.17 HP 6 MAG 6 SKL 7 SPD 8 LCK 3 DEF 5 RES With a Fire tome, that gives her: 11 ATK 6 AS 22 AVO 3 CRT 110 HIT 8 CEV Those are plenty good stats for the early game, she'll almost definitely make it into your party for the next several chapters. Hardly. You missed the most important stat for Lute: her 3 Con. That means she loses 1 AS from even the most basic Fire tome, 3 AS for Thunder, and 7 AS for Elfire. This limits her offensive options SEVERELY. It's a good thing that she's got okay Magic growth, because she aint doublin' shit with any reasonable weapon. Then again, she can't get those levels if she's not doing anything anyway. Let's take a look at how Lute's earlygame works. Chapter 4: Lute probably won't get to do much in this chapter as she joins in the middle. She's plenty useful once she joins though, as she's the only character you have besides Artur (who's probably busy on the left side of the map) that can hit the monsters on their weak Res, easily 2RKOing or 1RKOing with a bit of Neimi or Eirika support. Let's say she gains one level from picking off weakened enemies and weakening enemies. One level is pushing it. That assumes that Lute can get ~4 kills (or 3 and an attack) before you clear the chapter, and that's a tall order. Lute doesn't ORKO a single enemy on this map. The Mogalls have 5 Res and WTA so they only take 8/16 damage, the Revenants have 28-30 HP, and the Bonewalkers not only have 22-24 HP and 1-2 Res, but they also have enough speed that her 6 AS can't double any of them. She's 3HKOed as well, so while she CAN get counters, she's tough to expose to enemies in a way that gets her levels. That said, I'm feeling charitable, so I'll give her about 3/4 of a level. We are assuming that whoever's using Lute is going to favor her slightly, even though assuming she's used is pretty tough as-is. Chapter 5: Well, Lute's moderately helpful here I guess. She can easily pick off weakened units once again, but she's not especially helpful. She can help beat the bandit reinforcements if two units block the passage, or go up the left side. I think she can gain another level here. 26 HP on all the Soldiers means that she still can't ORKO them. She also can't 2RKO any non-Soldier unit on the map, so she's fully relegated to either chip damage or stealing kills. I'll be charitable again and say that she can at least follow behind some actually competent unit and pick off kills, and she gets another 3/4 of a level here. Chapter 6: Unfortunately, in the early stages of this chapter Lute's more of a liability than a help, as her weak Defense means she gets 1- or 2RKOd by nearly everything in the chapter. However, she can be quite helpful once your party starts advancing and you have a good defensive line, as hitting Res means that she'll be doing more damage than a lot of your party. I think it's safe to assume she gains another level or two from this. There are a couple important things to note about this map. It's Fog of War, which means it's hard to advance with a character as frail as Lute, who by now is 2HKOed by the entire map and ORKOed by Mercenaries, who most definitely double her by now, since she needs to gain 4 levels to gain the 2 Speed necessary to not be doubled, and we both know that's not happening. Even being charitable, we can basically say that this is half a level, putting Lute at level 3 here. Chapter 7: Lute has MAJOR problems here. Ballistas will destroy her if they hit, cavaliers that can outrange and kill her run rampant, and even the boss has a Javelin. Unfortunately, I don't think she's getting any levels here. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capitulo7fe8.htm Are we playing the same game here? The boss is the only cavalier, and while she IS ORKOed by the Mercenaries, she can at least pick up a level here if you chip for her and let her steal kills. Plus, the ballistae are in the middle of nowhere and only really affect fliers who would be moving through that terrain. Chapter 8: Now this is where Lute can really shine. The many chokepoints on the map provide ample opportunities for Lute to snipe from behind cover, especially as she can ORKO Knights after Seth or another unit softens them up a bit. She's probably one of your best bets for taking down the Mage reinforcements, and can even hit Tirado if you get him to equip his Silver Lance. She can easily gain two, maybe even three levels from this chapter. This is the first mission in which Lute can actually ORKO soldiers. Fun times. That said, every single other competent unit in the game other than Artur and maybe Neimi has been doing that all game, so now Lute is finally on par with real characters. She can pick up a level here probably, but no more than that. You also get Forde and Kyle here, which means only bad things for Lute in the future. Lute is level 5 here. At the route split, we take Eirika route. No argument here. Chapter 9: Lute is fairly helpful in this chapter. She can easily take on Pirates and Mercenaries ORKO most of them, but the wandering Snipers can and probably will ORKO her. She can probably get another level out of this. Yeah, a level seems "okay" to me. She gets a soldier kill, a myrm kill, and a Pirate kill when the reinforcements show up. Also, this is where she gets Thunder, which at least improves her chip against things she doesn't double (read: everything). Lute's coming into chapter 10 at level 6, I'd say. That's about as good as one can assume. Let's adjust for this new data, shall we? So let's say we have a Level 6 Lute at Chapter 10, when Gerik joins at Level 10. I'm going to compare their stats here, Lute is the first column.19.25/32 HP 9.25/14 STR/MAG 7.5/13 SKL 9.25/13 SPD 10.25/8 LUC 3.75/10 DEF 7/4 RES 3/13 CON We can see here that they're decently matched, with Gerik having a slight lead. However, although it may appear that Gerik has the damage lead here, Lute's hitting Res instead of Def, which makes a huge difference as most enemies at this point have much higher Def than Res. Skill is pretty much a moot point, as both Gerik and Lute will be hitting almost all the times because of Anima's high Hit rate. The Speed difference lets Gerik double a few faster enemies, but Lute will still be doubling the majority of enemies she fights. The Luck differential is largely pointless, and Lute's extra Res lets her combat Mages better but she'll get murdered by any physical hit. That being said, one of Lute's biggest advantages at this point is her reliable ranging: as many enemies you fight midgame are Cavaliers, Soldiers and other things with 1 range, magic is truly a godsend to help deal with them. In addition, a very large number of enemies in the midgame carry Lances, leaving Gerik at a huge disadvantage unless he promotes early. However, magic users are fairly uncommon (especially as most of them are Mages), meaning that Lute can help against them too with her huge Res. Gerik can generally ORKO Mages too, but his low Res means he'll take huge amounts of damage if he can't straight out OHKO. Okay, let's look at some actual offensive stats. Gerik: 32 HP, 10 Def, 4 Res, 30 Avoid Iron Sword: 19 Atk, 13 AS, 120 Hit, 6 Crit Steel Sword: 22 Atk, 13 AS, 105 Hit, 6 Crit Iron Blade: 23 Atk, 13 AS, 100 Hit, 6 Crit Steel Blade: 25 Atk, 12 AS, 95 Hit, 6 Crit, 28 Avoid Killing Edge: 23 Atk, 13 AS, 105 Hit, 36 Crit Lute: 19 HP, 4 Def, 7 Res, 23 Avoid Fire: 13 Atk, 8 AS, 109 Hit, 3 Crit, 21 Avoid Thunder: 16 Atk, 6 AS, 99 Hit, 8 Crit, 17 Avoid Lute's got the advantages of Def/Res gap (which is usually around 4-5 in this game) and 1-2 range, but she doesn't double anything except Soldiers / Entombed, and is even doubled by Mercenaries and Myrmidons (a theme that will continue on for quite a while). Meanwhile, Gerik doubles everything except Myrmidons and Mercenaries, and has a wide array of weapons to choose from for his murdering purposes. Defensively, Lute is hyper ass. 19 HP / 4 Def is OHKOed by most bosses, and 2HKOed by the entire universe. Sure, she's got Resistance, but she also sucks offensively against magic units. Meanwhile, Gerik is hyper manly, being 4HKOed at best by most enemies, and having significant dodge against axe users, getting them below the 50% hit rate level needed to turn 2 RNs against them. I think it's clear who wins here. Ah, but then we get to the issue of Promotional Items! In terms of competition, Lute is definitely not on the friendly side of things. There are 2 Guiding Rings that come early enough for them to matter for Lute, since she wants to promote ASAP- Mage Knight gives her +2 Con as well as +2 Movement. Of course, that assumes she can even get claim to them. She's gotta compete with Artur, Moulder, AND Natasha. This is not good for her- Artur promotes into Bishop, which gives him the hilariously effective Slayer as well as C Staves, meaning instant Physic, while Lute only gets D Staves on promotion. Meanwhile, Moulder and Natasha want to get Slayer as well, and also want to get the ability to attack and gain CEXP. Meanwhile, who is Gerik competing with? Ross? Garcia? The only marginally usable competition is Joshua, and Gerik is basically a Joshua with axes on promotion, which is: awesome. Now for some more Chapter-by-chapter comparisons.Chapter 10: Gerik starts out isolated and won't be doing ANYTHING until you can get Tana to his stronghold. Once you do though, he'll be pretty useful for clearing out the bottom section of the map. Lute can help you clear a path to the gate, but won't be too much help in the final assault as the Ballista destroy her and she can't really do anything to Pablo. Also, note that Pablo drops your second Guiding Ring, and as Gerik comes with a Hero Crest neither of them struggle for promotion. I would say this Chapter's a TIE overall. Tie? My my my, I don't think you know what you're talking about here. Gerik starts next to a huge flood of reinforcements from the south, and unlike Lute, Gerik is made of goddamn brick, which means he's definitely going to be able to get at least a level or two from said reinforcements, not to mention the fact that he comes with the Dancer to help him annihilate twice as many bitches per turn. Meanwhile, those Mercenaries of "I annihilate Lute's life with a pointy twig" are all over the place here- they're the most common enemy on the map and they poop all over Lute. She's not doing super well here at all, and is providing minor chip if anything. Gerik win by a damn mile, both as a green unit AND a blue one. Chapter 11: Unfortunately this chapter scares Lute. Granted, she can pick off monsters easily, as they have pathetic Res. However, archer Bonewalkers do heavy damage to her, and Venin weapons really mess with her day. I'm giving the win to GERIK here. Lute's actually okay here. There are zombies she can blow up (even with Thunder), and she can even double some of the slower (or steel-wielding) Skeletons. That said, Gerik essentially ORKOs the entire map except for the Mauthe Doogs (which ORKO Lute, so that's still a win) and the Entombed, which he still can come close to ORKOing with the Steel Blade. Gerik can solo an entire chunk of the map, netting him multiple levels- Lute needs significant support to do what many other characters can already do. Gerik wins here too. Chapter 12: Lute and Gerik can both be fairly useful in this chapter. While Gerik can help smash your way upwards, Lute can pick off dangerous Baels while they're still in the mountains, and damage basically anything on the map severely. In addition, by this point you'll have many physical tanks that can block paths easily, but Lute is basically the only thing you have for picking off Baels in the mountains. Although it's close, I would say LUTE wins this chapter. First off, I'd say Gerik is picking up his promotion here. If he gains 2 levels in Chapter 10 and 3 in Chapter 11 (which isn't that far off), he's at level 15. 15/1 Hero Gerik looks like this: HP: 40.5 Str: 17.25 Skl: 17 Spe: 16.5 Lck: 9.5 Def: 13.75 Res: 7.25 Con: 15 D Axes, B Swords (at least, probably more like A) A baller, am I right? How about Lute? She was level 6 when we saw her, and she can basically look at getting 3 levels by Chapter 12. We'd love to promote her, but she's still level 9. Boo hoo. HP: 20.6 Str: 11.2 Skl: 8.4 Spe: 10.6 Lck: 11.6 Def: 4.2 Res: 8.2 B Anima Bummer. Gerik's got more than 3 times as much Defense, twice as much HP, 1 more Move, and almost ties in Resistance. He's also eating her alive in offenses- her only wins are Luck and Resistance. Since we're not looking at ever using Iron again, here's our fearless heroes with common weapons: Gerik: 40 HP, 14 Def, 7 Res, 36 Avoid, 16 AS (what a tank) Steel Sword: 25 Atk, 113 Hit, 8 Crit Iron Blade: 26 Atk, 108 Hit Steel Blade: 28 Atk, 103 Hit Armorslayer: 25 (41) Atk, 118 Hit Steel Axe: 28 Atk, 103 Hit Hand Axe: 24 Atk, 98 Hit, 1-2 Range Halberd: 27 (47) Atk, 98 Hit Hammer: 27 (47) Atk, 93 Hit Lute: 20 HP, 4 Def, 8 Res, 28 Avoid Fire: 16 Atk, 10 AS, 112 Hit, 4 Crit Thunder: 19 Atk, 8 AS, 102 Hit, 9 Crit Ladies and gentlemen, the beginning of the end. Gerik doubles essentially everything, and his MUCH higher Strength completely closes the Defense-Resistance gap at 2 range. On top of that, access to effective weapons and stronger weapons crushes it at one range. He also has the raw defensive prowess to wade into enemies and raze them to the ground, meaning his EXP gain isn't significantly affected either. Chapter 12 is also merely "okay" for Lute. However, it's amazing for Gerik. He can ORKO the map at 2 range now, except for the boss (which he still doubles and 2RKOes, and also has WTA on) and the Entombed (which he still does 52/54 damage to and can KO with a Strength proc). Lute can double bone walkers and Baels pretty easily though, but she can only KO the Bone Walkers due to the low power on her tomes and her relatively low Magic. Adding insult to injury, Saleh shows up here and instantly kicks Lute the hell out of any sane person's party. Doesn't need a guiding ring, has awesome stats, and actually has defensive stats. However, for the purpose of this debate, we'll still assume that the person feels like fielding Lute anyway just to be nice. Chapter 13: Welcome to the BRAWL. All shit aside, if you're going straight for Aias (I'm gonna assume you are), Lute's a bit more helpful than Gerik here. Reason being, if you can take out the Ballistas early (not hard if you use Seth or another Cavalier/Paladin), she can basically ORKO everything guarding Aias, which Gerik will sometimes fail to do as some of them wield Lances. As for the boss, Lute and Gerik can both damage him if he's not using his Short Spear, so pretty much even there. That being said, LUTE probably edges Gerik out just a bit here. Wait, what? What game are you playing that Lute wins this match? I'm going to be nice and say Lute promoted at 11 here to Mage Knight, giving her a horse and some much needed CON. Her new stats are: 11/1 Mage Knight!Lute HP: 24.5 Mag: 14.5 Skl: 10 Spe: 11.5 Lck: 12.5 Def: 6.5 Res: 11 Con: 5 This is actually where Lute begins to pick up the pace. Mage Knight reduces the CON penalty of Thunder to 1, and also gives her a much-needed Magic boost, as well as marginally better Defense and a horse. The defense is still irrelevant, as all it does is reduce her chance of getting OHKOed, but it's a start. Let's move on to the actual chapter, shall we? Lute actually does pretty okay here. She's almost not 2HKOed, she's no longer doubled by Mercenaries, and she can ORKO Soldiers, Archers, and Fighters now. Then we realize that Gerik's swinging fucking dynamite. Aias counts as both armored AND a horse because he's a Great Knight, meaning that Gerik's got about 48 MT against him. Gerik ORKOes the boss with WTA, a feat no other unit on the map can pull off. He also has the defensive stats to wade into the pile of enemies near the boss, which definitely helps. Lute can clean up stragglers, sure, but Gerik's wading into an army and winning. Advantage Gerik. Chapter 14: UGH. Lute's very vulnerable in the first half of this chapter. What with the Snipers in the entrance hallway and the Shaman reinforcements, she'll have a hell of a time getting through to the top part of the hallway. Gerik has a significantly easier time of this, as the Shamans can hit him but the Snipers pose much less of a threat due to his large physical bulk. However, in the second half of the map their roles are reversed. On the approach to the throne room, Lute can easily bash through the Knights in the way that Gerik can't do anything to. Lute also fares slightly better against Caryle as she can fight him at 2 range, so she won't get murdered by his crits. Honestly, I'm calling this one a TIE. "nuh uh" First off, Gerik nearly ORKOs Knights at range with Hand Axe, and OHKOs them with Hammer. Hardly "can't do anything". Lute still does well against them, but not THAT well in comparison. Also, hate to break it to you, but Gerik is doubling and ORKOing Snipers at range, which Lute is most definitely *not* doing. Lute's still doing okay here despite that, as she ORKOs a lot of stuff on this map, but Gerik's doing it to everything, plus he's immune to death. Oh, and he can pull out the Silver Sword we got a while back and 2HKO the boss with good hitrate and not being doubled. Sweet deal. Definitely a Gerik win. Chapter 15: Good times are here again, Lute DOMINATES this map. She has full movement range, while Gerik can barely move. Lute comes in handy for fighting down the middle of the map, destroying the low-Res Fighters and Cavaliers, and generally killing everything (besides flying units) that need killing. LUTE easily takes this chapter. Again, are we playing the same game? Lute's going Mage Knight for the extra MOV and CON, and that means she's even less mobile in the desert than Gerik, who by the way should be running north through the not-desert and dominating Caellach's life, since by now he should have the 17 Spe required to double Caellach, plus the WTA needed to rock him hard. Lute's also dominated by the Berserkers that OHKO her, but she's "okay" against the cavaliers and fighters in the middle of the ma... oh wait, those are Mercenaries and Myrmidons. Nevermind, we don't double those now, do we. Nor will we ever. Oh, and the Rangers that come with completely ruin her life, so even if she could run ahead, she'd just be running toward 16 spe archery death in the form of Rangers. And that's not even mentioning Valter and the royal goddamn air force that he's bringing with him, which still outranges and annihilates Lute. So no, Lute is not dominating this map. Gerik, on the other hand, can either murder Caellach or just march down through the desert and murder Valter and his WKs instead. It's amazing what durability does for a unit. On the upside, Lute gets access to Elfire here... which tanks her speed, bringing her back down to that "doubled by Mercenaries" speed tier. It's okay for chip damage but little else. As a side note, I'm assuming both Lute and Gerik are definitely promoted here, if not a chapter or two before. Little late to the party there. If you're waiting until Chapter 16 to promote your characters, you're missing out. Then again, I'm going to be kind here and say that Lute gets the Body Ring here, since she's honestly one of the better candidates if you're using her. Chapter 16: Both Lute and Gerik face some problems here, assuming they go with the main group. Gerik's main threat is from the two sages with Purge and Bolting in the throne room, both of which can do heavy damage to him. Lute faces a ORKO from any of the dangerous physical threats in the chapter, but you'll have more than enough tanks to allow Lute to stay behind a barricade and hit enemies' weak Res. Other than that there's not much to say about their performances. Just based on the fact that LUTE has less crippling flaws, I'm giving her the win here. Really? Let's check back in with our stat comparison: Gerik Lute Level: 15/4 11/3 HP: 43.1 25.4 Str: 18.6 15.8 Skl: 18.2 10.6 Spe: 17.4 12.4 Lck: 10.4 13.4 Def: 14.8 6.8 Res: 8 11.8 Con: 15 7 This is not a good heads-up. Lute's only wins are, again, in Resistance, Luck, and Move. The move gap is 1, not notable; luck is minimally relevant at best; and 4 resistance pales in comparison to 18 HP. Now, you could say "well, we've got 2 Angelic Robes and 2 Speedwings, and either of them could go to Lute!" This is valid, to be sure... but it also means that Lute has eaten a sought-after Guiding Ring, an Angelic Robe, a Speedwing, AND one of two Body Rings so far. Not to mention she'll still be losing to Gerik even with the benefits. However, I'll give her the Robe and Speedwing, which she DEFINITELY does not have claim to in a real game, just for the purpose of showing that even resources can't save her. Gerik Lute Level: 15/4 11/3 HP: 43.1 32.4 Str: 18.6 15.8 Skl: 18.2 10.6 Spe: 17.4 14.4 Lck: 10.4 13.4 Def: 14.8 6.8 Res: 8 11.8 Con: 15 7 Still not good for Lute. She's at least going from 2HKOed to 3HKOed in many cases, and she now doubles a lot more, but Gerik's still doubling EVERYTHING. Now on to the actual Chapter 16. Giving Lute the Speedwing and Body Ring actually really opens up possibilities for her here, since 14 speed lets her double Fighters, Great Knights, and Cavaliers. However, she's a mile off of ORKOing the Great Knights, while Gerik and his effective weapon access lets him laugh at them. Sure, Bolting and Purge are annoying, but they can be redirected, especially considering Gerik's very un-bad 8 Resistance, and he also is one of the few characters that matches up well against the Heroes in the throne room. Also, again, he dominates the boss with Halberd. He can't double, but he does deal about 3/4 of Orson's HP in one hit, something Lute can only dream of doing (she does pitiful damage with Thunder and is doubled when using Elfire). Chapter 17: A LOL chap in any case. Lute can easily take down most of the Sages with an accompanying healer, while Gerik can blast through Warriors with no trouble at all. Honestly, there's not a huge difference in usefulness here. Aww.... just when things were looking up for Lute. While she does double some of the wyvern riders, the Wyvern Lord does 3/4 of her HP in damage, leaving her easily in KO range of anyone else. The berserker also frightens her, and the Valkyries are basically immune to her. She's also pounded hard by the Sage in the middle of the map, doubled by the Swordmaster over by the throne, and gets 2HKOed by the Luna Druids as well (plus their WTA, which is bad for her avo-wise). Meanwhile, the Wyverns can barely hit an Axe-wielding Gerik (Paladins too), the Valkyries are hit hard (not doubled, but they don't do significant damage while Gerik 2HKOs at range), and Gerik can easily 2RKO the boss or give plenty of damage for the boss to get killed by any other unit. Lute can't even touch Lyon. Gerik can even walk across the river and go deal with the Heroes, which is nice considering the Brave Axe Hero is very unfriendly to any flyers that would go over there to attack. Chapter 18: Gorgon eggs, wheee! In any case, honestly Gerik isn;t doing much this chapter to stand out. Sure, he can ORKO Gorgon Eggs and ORKO Gorgons safely, but then again so can everybody in your entire party (pretty much). Lute, with a tome like Shine, can do the same thing, but from 2 range and will barely take any damage in the process! I think this makes this chapter a pretty clear win for LUTE. I'm not feelin' the Lute win here. For one, Lute doesn't actually have access to Light magic due to Mage Knight, which is far superior. This means she's locked to WTD against the Mogalls and Gorgons. She also has a hell of a time trying to kill Gorgons, which hurts. Oh, and he cleanly and easily ORKOs the boss. Great job. This chapter does reek of self-improvement, though, and Lute is a very improving character, so I think we can settle on this leaning toward Gerik, though Lute can ORKO all the non-gorgon enemies on the map except for the Toxic Lance Gargoyle, which has 14 AS. This leans toward Gerik, as they're equal except for Gorgons, which is a clear win for Gerik. Chapter 19: This chapter...anyways, both Lute and Gerik haves roles to play here. Gerik can block chokepoints and take hits, while Lute can snipe enemies from behind, heal, and take on Riev better. I don't think either character has a distinct advantage over the other, so I'm going to say TIE. Yeah, "this chapter". Anyway, Gerik can solo or duo the top portion, something that Lute can't claim to be capable of. Druids walk all over Lute, the Generals are non-ORKOable for Lute (while Gerik can whip out an effective weapon against them just like always), and she's still not ORKOing Myrmidons, Mercenaries, or their promoted counterparts. Hell, the Swordmasters come close to doubling her, and DEFINITELY double her if she doesn't get the Speedwing. Chapter 20: Here's where you want to start using your Sacred Twin weapons. Lute has practically NO competition for Excalibur, she's going to get it. Gerik, however, faces heavy competition for the Audhulma between Seth, Joshua, and your other Paladins, while many other units can make better use of the speed boost from Garm. As for the chapter itself, both Lute and Gerik can assist in blasting through the swarms of enemies. Lute is far better for killing Cyclopses and other physical monsters, while Gerik takes on Arch Mongalls better. However, as Lute will probably have a Sacred Twin weapon and Gerik probably won't, I'm giving LUTE the win here. Here will be our last check-in level-wise. Gerik Lute Level: 15/10 11/10 HP: 48.5 35.55 Str: 21.3 20.35 Skl: 20.6 12.4 Spe: 19.2 17.55 Lck: 12.2 16.55 Def: 16.9 7.85 Res: 9.5 14.6 Con: 15 7 Lute's ALMOST caught up! Isn't that adorable. Gerik's still leading by 13 HP, 1 Str, 2 Spe, 9 Def, and has silver to his name. Plus, he's got the potential of Audhulma or Garm. In fact, Duessel is the only potentially usable other Axe user in the game, considering we're not likely using promoted Garcia or Ross. So I'd say that Garm goes to Gerik, especially considering the fact that he's been almost exclusively swinging axes since promotion. That is, if he even needs it, which he may not. Plus, Excalibur's +5 speed is completely negated by the fact that it weighs Lute down by 6 anyway, so she's still just sitting at 16 speed. This means that she misses doubling the Cyclops, some of the most threatening enemies on the map, and one of the few that she can't just OHKO outright. That said, Gerik gets the nod simply for being able to kill most everthing except Cyclops with just regular old Silver or even Steel. He doubles the whole map with ease, and the only things he doesn't ORKO are the Cyclops, which can't even come close to hitting him if he decides to go with a sword. So sure, Lute can use her Excalibur, but even if Gerik doesn't use Garm, he's still matching her in terms of performance. Also, one must realize that with 48 HP / 16 Defense, he can see a hell of a lot more combat than she can, hands down. Most enemies on the map are physical, and the magical ones have WTA on her, no less. Endgame: At this point, it comes down to whether Gerik has a Sacred Twin weapon or not. If he does, he can basically ORKO the enitre chapter (which Lute is doing with Excaliber anyway), meaning that they're roughly evenly matched; if not, he'll lose. However, LUTE has higher Res to help her deal with Draco Zombies, which I think gives her a narrow win over Gerik. Alright, stop. Hammertime. Check it out. Lute is damn near OHKOed by Wretched Air from the Dracozombies, and with her low Defense she's not likely to be going up against them at full HP anyway. On top of that, if she DIDN'T get the robe, she's OHKOed by them without fail due to their defense-ignoring properties. Furthermore, her 56 MT isn't actually 2HKOing the Dracozombies, oddly enough. Granted, Gerik with Garm probably isn't either, but he can at least face them at less than max HP without instantly dying. His superior Avoid also makes him much better at avoiding stuff like Stone (which has WTA on Lute) or Lethal Talon from the Elder Baels. He's also not doubled by the Gwyllgi, which is nice (though you OHKO them with Excalibur on counter, so whatever). Gerik still edges out here with superior defensive skills, since both are off the hook attack-wise. Last chapter. Gerik doubles the Demon King with Garm, dealing around 48 damage. Lute fails to double the demon king, instead dealing around 15 damage. Guess who's actively contributing to the win? Oh, and Gerik is never OHKOed by the Demon King either, while Lute is always KOed. Fun times. Now that all that's out of the way, let's look at one other thing we passed up in this whole exhibition: Supports. Gerik wins Supports by a damn mile for one main reason: Tethys. Gerik is the only reasonable support option for Tethys in terms of usability, and the support is only 13 turns to C, 33 turns to B, and 53 turns to A. This support gives Gerik half Attack, Defense, Accuracy, and Crit Evasion, as well as full Avoid and Critical, which gives Gerik a significant boost even at a mere B rank. Gerik's already sitting on extremely competent avoid, and with a full Avoid support from Tethys, it's even better. Gerik can also pick up supports from Innes (who has no other reasonable options), Saleh (that unit you're probably using instead of Lute, and another character whose only reasonable support is Gerik), and even Joshua. Lute, on the other hand has... Artur. Granted, this support is pretty good for both of them (Half Attack / Accuracy and full Defense / Avoid / Critical Avoid), but it still requires chaining together two mages who for most of the game would prefer to stay far, far away from each other and are more likely to murder the other in their sleep for claim to one of the two reasonable Guiding Rings. So yeah, Gerik has loads of options which he has essentially full claim to, while Lute is stuck tagging along with another mage who probably doesn't need her help and is going to end up getting her killed while they build up said support anyway. So yeah. TL;DR: - Gerik is a manly man who causes enemies to flee with one flex of his muscles - His high starting level and excellent base stats plus advantages in chapters 10 and 11 give him a sizeable level lead before promotion - Lute's stats are mediocre for most of the game and require multiple stat boosters to merely equalize with Gerik's badassitude - Lute's defenses are paper thin while Gerik's are awesome - Lute's one support is pretty good, but Gerik's every support is better (except marisa who sucks but who cares) - Merely justifying fielding Lute is hard to defend when you have multiple Bishops and a free super-lute in the form of Saleh, while Gerik is a man without an equal Edited April 20, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss-Head Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Let's get crackin guys. We're pitting Gerik, a super-manly mercenary with biceps the size of a small child against... a small child. It doesn't even seem fair. Yeah...you wish. I think with all those biceps, Gerik's brain disappeared. Meanwhile, Lute has a brain the size of Gerik. That's all well and good, but her availibility is nigh on nonexistant when you consider that she's pretty bad when she shows up, she's damn hard to use in her early chapters, and she shows up at the same time as a far superior magic user with a better class (Artur) no less, except Artur has all map to improve. So you're assuming Artur is our ONLY magic user until...like...Chapter 12, when Moulder and/or Natasha promote and you get Saleh? Yeah...good luck making it through earlygame with just Artur. Hardly. You missed the most important stat for Lute: her 3 Con. That means she loses 1 AS from even the most basic Fire tome, 3 AS for Thunder, and 7 AS for Elfire. This limits her offensive options SEVERELY. It's a good thing that she's got okay Magic growth, because she aint doublin' shit with any reasonable weapon. Then again, she can't get those levels if she's not doing anything anyway. An okay magic growth? Lute has the best magic growth in the entire game. Besides, Artur doesn't double stuff for a while either, so... Let's take a look at how Lute's earlygame works.One level is pushing it. That assumes that Lute can get ~4 kills (or 3 and an attack) before you clear the chapter, and that's a tall order. Lute doesn't ORKO a single enemy on this map. The Mogalls have 5 Res and WTA so they only take 8/16 damage, the Revenants have 28-30 HP, and the Bonewalkers not only have 22-24 HP and 1-2 Res, but they also have enough speed that her 6 AS can't double any of them. She's 3HKOed as well, so while she CAN get counters, she's tough to expose to enemies in a way that gets her levels. That said, I'm feeling charitable, so I'll give her about 3/4 of a level. We are assuming that whoever's using Lute is going to favor her slightly, even though assuming she's used is pretty tough as-is. Seriously...who else are you using on this map? Lute's forced as is. Also, Seth is the only unit you have that can really ORKO anything on this map (besides an overleveled Franz with WTA) And remember: we're not arguing about whether Lute or Gerik should be used. We're arguing about which one is 'better'. 26 HP on all the Soldiers means that she still can't ORKO them. She also can't 2RKO any non-Soldier unit on the map, so she's fully relegated to either chip damage or stealing kills. I'll be charitable again and say that she can at least follow behind some actually competent unit and pick off kills, and she gets another 3/4 of a level here. I'll give this to you, but you have to remember that Gerik still doesn't exist, and not many of your units are ORKOing consistently. You need someone to finish off weakened units, and Lute has a handy 2 range-why not her? There are a couple important things to note about this map. It's Fog of War, which means it's hard to advance with a character as frail as Lute, who by now is 2HKOed by the entire map and ORKOed by Mercenaries, who most definitely double her by now, since she needs to gain 4 levels to gain the 2 Speed necessary to not be doubled, and we both know that's not happening. Even being charitable, we can basically say that this is half a level, putting Lute at level 3 here. No argument really. Lute sucks ass here. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capitulo7fe8.htm Are we playing the same game here? The boss is the only cavalier, and while she IS ORKOed by the Mercenaries, she can at least pick up a level here if you chip for her and let her steal kills. Plus, the ballistae are in the middle of nowhere and only really affect fliers who would be moving through that terrain. Again, no argument. This is the first mission in which Lute can actually ORKO soldiers. Fun times. That said, every single other competent unit in the game other than Artur and maybe Neimi has been doing that all game, so now Lute is finally on par with real characters. She can pick up a level here probably, but no more than that. You also get Forde and Kyle here, which means only bad things for Lute in the future. Lute is level 5 here. First: this means she's the only 2 range unit you have that ORKOs Soldiers. And for all you say about Artur being so much better than Lute, in this chapter she's superior. With all the chokepoints in the chapter, she can easily destroy slightly weakened Knights and whatnot. In addition, she's pretty much the only unit you have that can consistently ORKO or 2RKO Mages over walls without taking much damage. Also, Forde and Kyle show up way on the other side of the map, so why are they interfering with Lute's EXP gain? And are you really using three Paladins anyway? I'd say she's definitely getting two levels here. No argument here. Yeah, a level seems "okay" to me. She gets a soldier kill, a myrm kill, and a Pirate kill when the reinforcements show up. Also, this is where she gets Thunder, which at least improves her chip against things she doesn't double (read: everything). You're not arguing, so I won't. Lute's coming into chapter 10 at level 6, I'd say. That's about as good as one can assume. Let's adjust for this new data, shall we? Level 6? You make me laugh, sir. Lute can be at Level 7 at the very least, assuming she picks up an extra level somewhere along the way, from extra kills in Chapter 8 and whatnot. Actually it's quite possible for her to be Level 8, but that's stretching it a bit. Okay, let's look at some actual offensive stats. Gerik: 32 HP, 10 Def, 4 Res, 30 Avoid Iron Sword: 19 Atk, 13 AS, 120 Hit, 6 Crit Steel Sword: 22 Atk, 13 AS, 105 Hit, 6 Crit Iron Blade: 23 Atk, 13 AS, 100 Hit, 6 Crit Steel Blade: 25 Atk, 12 AS, 95 Hit, 6 Crit, 28 Avoid Killing Edge: 23 Atk, 13 AS, 105 Hit, 36 Crit Lute: 20 HP, 4 Def, 7 Res, 23 Avoid Fire: 14 Atk, 8 AS, 109 Hit, 3 Crit, 21 Avoid Thunder: 17 Atk, 6 AS, 99 Hit, 8 Crit, 17 Avoid Fixed to account for Lute being level 7. Lute's got the advantages of Def/Res gap (which is usually around 4-5 in this game) and 1-2 range, but she doesn't double anything except Soldiers / Entombed, and is even doubled by Mercenaries and Myrmidons (a theme that will continue on for quite a while). Meanwhile, Gerik doubles everything except Myrmidons and Mercenaries, and has a wide array of weapons to choose from for his murdering purposes. So...apparently you assume we're leaving Lute on the frontlines the entire game, and Mages all magically avoid Gerik. Yeah, I don't think so. Gerik takes pretty big damage from Mages, while Lute is practically invincible to them, 4HKOed most of the time. Defensively, Lute is hyper ass. 19 HP / 4 Def is OHKOed by most bosses, and 2HKOed by the entire universe. Sure, she's got Resistance, but she also sucks offensively against magic units. Meanwhile, Gerik is hyper manly, being 4HKOed at best by most enemies, and having significant dodge against axe users, getting them below the 50% hit rate level needed to turn 2 RNs against them. I think it's clear who wins here. You see, there are these things called lances. In the midgame, nearly everything uses them. Most things that have Lances (read: everything besides Soldiers) will not be ORKO'd by Gerik, and will do decent amounts of damage to him. Seeing as Shamans are basically from chapters 14-19, Lute doesn't really suffer from WTD. Ah, but then we get to the issue of Promotional Items! In terms of competition, Lute is definitely not on the friendly side of things. There are 2 Guiding Rings that come early enough for them to matter for Lute, since she wants to promote ASAP- Mage Knight gives her +2 Con as well as +2 Movement. Of course, that assumes she can even get claim to them. She's gotta compete with Artur, Moulder, AND Natasha. This is not good for her- Artur promotes into Bishop, which gives him the hilariously effective Slayer as well as C Staves, meaning instant Physic, while Lute only gets D Staves on promotion. Meanwhile, Moulder and Natasha want to get Slayer as well, and also want to get the ability to attack and gain CEXP. Because everybody knows we want three Bishops for our endgame party, right? And we want to just leave one of the best tomes in the game sitting in storage (Excalibur), right? Definitely! Meanwhile, who is Gerik competing with? Ross? Garcia? The only marginally usable competition is Joshua, and Gerik is basically a Joshua with axes on promotion, which is: awesome. True enough. Difference: Joshua doubles everything and crits most things. Gerik doubles most thing and crits few things. Tie? My my my, I don't think you know what you're talking about here. Gerik starts next to a huge flood of reinforcements from the south, and unlike Lute, Gerik is made of goddamn brick, which means he's definitely going to be able to get at least a level or two from said reinforcements, not to mention the fact that he comes with the Dancer to help him annihilate twice as many bitches per turn. Meanwhile, those Mercenaries of "I annihilate Lute's life with a pointy twig" are all over the place here- they're the most common enemy on the map and they poop all over Lute. She's not doing super well here at all, and is providing minor chip if anything. Gerik win by a damn mile, both as a green unit AND a blue one. Yeah...uh-huh. Even if Gerik is built like a brick, taking on 15 reinforcements might be a bit too much even for him. Lute has these magical things called 'healers'! Imagine that! And again, you assume we're throwing Lute on the frontline. We're not. She can easily pick off weakened Mercenaries and Myrmidons, seeing as very few of you units ORKO them. Lute's actually okay here. There are zombies she can blow up (even with Thunder), and she can even double some of the slower (or steel-wielding) Skeletons. That said, Gerik essentially ORKOs the entire map except for the Mauthe Doogs (which ORKO Lute, so that's still a win) and the Entombed, which he still can come close to ORKOing with the Steel Blade. Gerik can solo an entire chunk of the map, netting him multiple levels- Lute needs significant support to do what many other characters can already do. Gerik wins here too. Because...apparently we want Gerik to solo entire portions of maps, right? A lot of your powerful physical tanks can do the same thing here. Lute's ORKOing a lot of Bonewalkers and Entombed, and can easily pick up a level or two for herself here. First off, I'd say Gerik is picking up his promotion here. If he gains 2 levels in Chapter 10 and 3 in Chapter 11 (which isn't that far off), he's at level 15. 15/1 Hero Gerik looks like this: HP: 40.5 Str: 17.25 Skl: 17 Spe: 16.5 Lck: 9.5 Def: 13.75 Res: 7.25 Con: 15 D Axes, B Swords (at least, probably more like A) Probably true. A baller, am I right? How about Lute? She was level 7 when we saw her, and she can basically look at getting 4 levels by Chapter 12. We'd love to promote her, but she's still level 11. Fix'd. If Gerik can get 2 and 3 levels, Lute can easily pick up 1.5 and 2.5, for the reasons I stated above. HP: 21.5 Str: 12.5 Skl: 9 Spe: 11.5 Lck: 12.5 Def: 4.5 Res: 9 B Anima Bummer. Gerik's got more than 3 times as much Defense, twice as much HP, 1 more Move, and almost ties in Resistance. He's also eating her alive in offenses- her only wins are Luck and Resistance. Meanwhile, enemies have 3/4 as much Res and sometimes WTA over Gerik, seeing as Swords and Lances are both pretty common midgame. Lute may not be doing AS much damage, but she's coming close. And besides, she has good 1-2 range. Gerik does not. Since we're not looking at ever using Iron again, here's our fearless heroes with common weapons:Gerik: 40 HP, 14 Def, 7 Res, 36 Avoid, 16 AS (what a tank) Steel Sword: 25 Atk, 113 Hit, 8 Crit Iron Blade: 26 Atk, 108 Hit Steel Blade: 28 Atk, 103 Hit Armorslayer: 25 (41) Atk, 118 Hit Steel Axe: 28 Atk, 103 Hit Hand Axe: 24 Atk, 98 Hit, 1-2 Range Halberd: 27 (47) Atk, 98 Hit Hammer: 27 (47) Atk, 93 Hit Ladies and gentlemen, the beginning of the end. Gerik doubles essentially everything, and his MUCH higher Strength completely closes the Defense-Resistance gap at 2 range. On top of that, access to effective weapons and stronger weapons crushes it at one range. He also has the raw defensive prowess to wade into enemies and raze them to the ground, meaning his EXP gain isn't significantly affected either. Yeah, sure. Do we remember what game we're playing? You have probably five different units that can do the exact same thing you're describing here. However, Lute's the strongest 1-2 range you've got. Gerik's basically going to be stuck with Hand Axe for the entire game, while Lute can choose from a wide variety of magic. Chapter 12 is also merely "okay" for Lute. However, it's amazing for Gerik. He can ORKO the map at 2 range now, except for the boss (which he still doubles and 2RKOes, and also has WTA on) and the Entombed (which he still does 52/54 damage to and can KO with a Strength proc). Lute can double bone walkers and Baels pretty easily though, but she can only KO the Bone Walkers due to the low power on her tomes and her relatively low Magic. If Gerik chooses to use the Hand Axe, there are several Sword-wielding Bonewalkers he doesn't ORKO, in addition to the Baels. Lute ORKOS all the Bonewalkers, and does insane damage to the Baels. Adding insult to injury, Saleh shows up here and instantly kicks Lute the hell out of any sane person's party. Doesn't need a guiding ring, has awesome stats, and actually has defensive stats. However, for the purpose of this debate, we'll still assume that the person feels like fielding Lute anyway just to be nice. Meanwhile, Lute's got more Mov, most likely a higher Anima rank by now, and most likely higher Mag. Besides, are you just going to completely ignore that Lute was around for eight chapters where Saleh didn't even exist? Wait, what? What game are you playing that Lute wins this match? I'm going to be nice and say Lute promoted at 11 here to Mage Knight, giving her a horse and some much needed CON. Her new stats are: 13/1 Mage Knight!Lute HP: 25.4 Mag: 15.6 Skl: 10.6 Spe: 12.4 Lck: 13.4 Def: 6.8 Res: 11.8 Con: 5 This is actually where Lute begins to pick up the pace. Mage Knight reduces the CON penalty of Thunder to 1, and also gives her a much-needed Magic boost, as well as marginally better Defense and a horse. The defense is still irrelevant, as all it does is reduce her chance of getting OHKOed, but it's a start. First of all: Lute's not Level 11 here. She was there a chapter ago, and seeing as Chapter 12 is an easy EXP mine for her she can easily grab a level or two there. And Lute really isn't getting ORKO'd at this point. Stuff like Myrmidons don't pack the sheer might to do it, and anything strong enough to kil her in one hit (read: basically nothing) is facing something like 50% hit against her due to her pretty great Speed and amazing Luck. Let's move on to the actual chapter, shall we? Lute actually does pretty okay here. She's almost not 2HKOed, she's no longer doubled by Mercenaries, and she can ORKO Soldiers, Archers, and Fighters now. Then we realize that Gerik's swinging fucking dynamite. Aias counts as both armored AND a horse because he's a Great Knight, meaning that Gerik's got about 48 MT against him. Gerik ORKOes the boss with WTA, a feat no other unit on the map can pull off. He also has the defensive stats to wade into the pile of enemies near the boss, which definitely helps. Lute can clean up stragglers, sure, but Gerik's wading into an army and winning. Advantage Gerik. So apparently, Gerik can equip a sword and an axe to get WTA against the whole map? Right? No. The Cavs here are pretty mixed with their weapons, so it's not like Gerik can wade into the midst of them and ORKO them all while taking no damage. Sure, he'll decimate half of it, but the half with the weapons with WTA on him won't get ORKO'd and will do pretty good damage to him. The guy's not invincible. "nuh uh" First off, Gerik nearly ORKOs Knights at range with Hand Axe, and OHKOs them with Hammer. Hardly "can't do anything". Lute still does well against them, but not THAT well in comparison. Also, hate to break it to you, but Gerik is doubling and ORKOing Snipers at range, which Lute is most definitely *not* doing. Lute's still doing okay here despite that, as she ORKOs a lot of stuff on this map, but Gerik's doing it to everything, plus he's immune to death. Oh, and he can pull out the Silver Sword we got a while back and 2HKO the boss with good hitrate and not being doubled. Sweet deal. Definitely a Gerik win. So you're planning to leave Gerik sitting there killing Snipers for, what, 9 turns on end? Okay then. And Lute ORKOs nearly everything on this map, besides the Snipers that you should be rushing past anyway and the lolShamans (and the boss, ofc), or comes really damn close. And while the boss can't 2HKO Gerik normally, our brave Hero is facing something like 30% crit. Gerik can't touch Caryle from two range to prevent this, while Lute can something like 4RKO him (but probably won't die). Again, are we playing the same game? Lute's going Mage Knight for the extra MOV and CON, and that means she's even less mobile in the desert than Gerik, who by the way should be running north through the not-desert and dominating Caellach's life, since by now he should have the 17 Spe required to double Caellach, plus the WTA needed to rock him hard. Lute's also dominated by the Berserkers that OHKO her, but she's "okay" against the cavaliers and fighters in the middle of the ma... oh wait, those are Mercenaries and Myrmidons. Nevermind, we don't double those now, do we. Nor will we ever. Oh, and the Rangers that come with completely ruin her life, so even if she could run ahead, she'd just be running toward 16 spe archery death in the form of Rangers. And that's not even mentioning Valter and the royal goddamn air force that he's bringing with him, which still outranges and annihilates Lute. So no, Lute is not dominating this map. Gerik, on the other hand, can either murder Caellach or just march down through the desert and murder Valter and his WKs instead. It's amazing what durability does for a unit. On the upside, Lute gets access to Elfire here... which tanks her speed, bringing her back down to that "doubled by Mercenaries" speed tier. It's okay for chip damage but little else. Erm...not sure what to say here. Just remember that Lute has good enough Avo (especially on Sand) that it's not likely she gets ORKO'd. Little late to the party there. If you're waiting until Chapter 16 to promote your characters, you're missing out. Then again, I'm going to be kind here and say that Lute gets the Body Ring here, since she's honestly one of the better candidates if you're using her. Fine, Lute can have the Body Ring. Why not? Really? Let's check back in with our stat comparison: Gerik Lute Level: 15/4 13/3 HP: 43.1 26.3 Str: 18.6 16.9 Skl: 18.2 11.2 Spe: 17.4 13.3 Lck: 10.4 14.3 Def: 14.8 7.1 Res: 8 12.2 Con: 15 7 This is not a good heads-up. Lute's only wins are, again, in Resistance, Luck, and Move. The move gap is 1, not notable; luck is minimally relevant at best; and 4 resistance pales in comparison to 18 HP. Now, you could say "well, we've got 2 Angelic Robes and 2 Speedwings, and either of them could go to Lute!" This is valid, to be sure... but it also means that Lute has eaten a sought-after Guiding Ring, an Angelic Robe, a Speedwing, AND one of two Body Rings so far. Not to mention she'll still be losing to Gerik even with the benefits. However, I'll give her the Robe and Speedwing, which she DEFINITELY does not have claim to in a real game, just for the purpose of showing that even resources can't save her. Gerik Lute Level: 15/4 11/3 HP: 43.1 33.3 Str: 18.6 16.9 Skl: 18.2 11.2 Spe: 17.4 15.3 Lck: 10.4 14.3 Def: 14.8 7.1 Res: 8 12.2 Con: 15 7 Still not good for Lute. She's at least going from 2HKOed to 3HKOed in many cases, and she now doubles a lot more, but Gerik's still doubling EVERYTHING. ...What. I agree, Lute has no right to a Speedwing and a Robe. But you're giving them to her...so I'll go with it. Now on to the actual Chapter 16. Giving Lute the Speedwing and Body Ring actually really opens up possibilities for her here, since 14 speed lets her double Fighters, Great Knights, and Cavaliers. However, she's a mile off of ORKOing the Great Knights, while Gerik and his effective weapon access lets him laugh at them. Sure, Bolting and Purge are annoying, but they can be redirected, especially considering Gerik's very un-bad 8 Resistance, and he also is one of the few characters that matches up well against the Heroes in the throne room. Also, again, he dominates the boss with Halberd. He can't double, but he does deal about 3/4 of Orson's HP in one hit, something Lute can only dream of doing (she does pitiful damage with Thunder and is doubled when using Elfire). Again with the specialized weapons. When will you realize that when Gerik equips a special weapon to kill something, he's wide open to something else? It's not like he has infinite inventory space either, nor do you get infinite Halberds and Hammers. Seems as if Gerik can make any weapon he needs appear with the snap of his fingers. Not likely. Aww.... just when things were looking up for Lute. While she does double some of the wyvern riders, the Wyvern Lord does 3/4 of her HP in damage, leaving her easily in KO range of anyone else. The berserker also frightens her, and the Valkyries are basically immune to her. She's also pounded hard by the Sage in the middle of the map, doubled by the Swordmaster over by the throne, and gets 2HKOed by the Luna Druids as well (plus their WTA, which is bad for her avo-wise). Meanwhile, the Wyverns can barely hit an Axe-wielding Gerik (Paladins too), the Valkyries are hit hard (not doubled, but they don't do significant damage while Gerik 2HKOs at range), and Gerik can easily 2RKO the boss or give plenty of damage for the boss to get killed by any other unit. Lute can't even touch Lyon. Gerik can even walk across the river and go deal with the Heroes, which is nice considering the Brave Axe Hero is very unfriendly to any flyers that would go over there to attack. Gerik gets pounded by the Sage and the Druids here too. And besides, it's not like Gerik is ORKOing the Swordmaster anyway. Also, Lute can ORKO the Berseker from range before he kills her (he has piss poor hit on her anyway). Otherwise, fair enough. I'm not feelin' the Lute win here. For one, Lute doesn't actually have access to Light magic due to Mage Knight, which is far superior. This means she's locked to WTD against the Mogalls and Gorgons. She also has a hell of a time trying to kill Gorgons, which hurts. Oh, and he cleanly and easily ORKOs the boss. Great job. This chapter does reek of self-improvement, though, and Lute is a very improving character, so I think we can settle on this leaning toward Gerik, though Lute can ORKO all the non-gorgon enemies on the map except for the Toxic Lance Gargoyle, which has 14 AS. This leans toward Gerik, as they're equal except for Gorgons, which is a clear win for Gerik. Lute can still ORKO the Gorgon Eggs, which is an extremely useful quality to have. Besides, do you think Gerik kills all the Gorgons without taking any damage? No: he takes big damamge from Demon Surge, and Stone fucks him the same as anybody else. Yeah, "this chapter". Anyway, Gerik can solo or duo the top portion, something that Lute can't claim to be capable of. Druids walk all over Lute, the Generals are non-ORKOable for Lute (while Gerik can whip out an effective weapon against them just like always), and she's still not ORKOing Myrmidons, Mercenaries, or their promoted counterparts. Hell, the Swordmasters come close to doubling her, and DEFINITELY double her if she doesn't get the Speedwing. Again with the special weapons thing. Too lazy to repeat my argument, see above. And again you assume we're putting Lute on the front lines or something. We're not. Here will be our last check-in level-wise. Gerik Lute Level: 15/10 13/10 HP: 48.5 36.45 Str: 21.3 21.45 Skl: 20.6 12.7 Spe: 19.2 18.35 Lck: 12.2 17.45 Def: 16.9 8.15 Res: 9.5 15.4 Con: 15 7 Lute's ALMOST caught up! Isn't that adorable. Gerik's still leading by 13 HP, 1 Str, 2 Spe, 9 Def, and has silver to his name. Plus, he's got the potential of Audhulma or Garm. In fact, Duessel is the only potentially usable other Axe user in the game, considering we're not likely using promoted Garcia or Ross. So I'd say that Garm goes to Gerik, especially considering the fact that he's been almost exclusively swinging axes since promotion. That is, if he even needs it, which he may not. Plus, Excalibur's +5 speed is completely negated by the fact that it weighs Lute down by 6 anyway, so she's still just sitting at 16 speed. This means that she misses doubling the Cyclops, some of the most threatening enemies on the map, and one of the few that she can't just OHKO outright. That said, Gerik gets the nod simply for being able to kill most everthing except Cyclops with just regular old Silver or even Steel. He doubles the whole map with ease, and the only things he doesn't ORKO are the Cyclops, which can't even come close to hitting him if he decides to go with a sword. So sure, Lute can use her Excalibur, but even if Gerik doesn't use Garm, he's still matching her in terms of performance. Also, one must realize that with 48 HP / 16 Defense, he can see a hell of a lot more combat than she can, hands down. Most enemies on the map are physical, and the magical ones have WTA on her, no less. And why in the world wouldn't Lute be using Excalibur? It's got plenty of durability for the last two chapters. By your own logic, using it Lute basically rapes the whole map besides the Cyclopses (Gerik doesn't ORKO) and the Arch Mongalls (which do big damage to Gerik at range). I can live with that. Alright, stop. Hammertime. Check it out. Lute is damn near OHKOed by Wretched Air from the Dracozombies, and with her low Defense she's not likely to be going up against them at full HP anyway. On top of that, if she DIDN'T get the robe, she's OHKOed by them without fail due to their defense-ignoring properties. Furthermore, her 56 MT isn't actually 2HKOing the Dracozombies, oddly enough. Granted, Gerik with Garm probably isn't either, but he can at least face them at less than max HP without instantly dying. His superior Avoid also makes him much better at avoiding stuff like Stone (which has WTA on Lute) or Lethal Talon from the Elder Baels. He's also not doubled by the Gwyllgi, which is nice (though you OHKO them with Excalibur on counter, so whatever). Gerik still edges out here with superior defensive skills, since both are off the hook attack-wise. Last chapter. Gerik doubles the Demon King with Garm, dealing around 48 damage. Lute fails to double the demon king, instead dealing around 15 damage. Guess who's actively contributing to the win? Oh, and Gerik is never OHKOed by the Demon King either, while Lute is always KOed. Fun times. I'm gonna bring up something Lute can probably do half-decently by now: healing. By now she can have at LEAST a C in staffs easily, so she can use Psychic. She's contributing to your team in a way Gerik never could. Now that that's out of the way, Lute basically ORKOs the entire map besides Draco Zombies (Gerik can't beat them either), Arch Mongalls and Gorgons (Which both do big damage to Gerik at range and can Stone him with pretty good Hit). During the final battle, she can support with the after mentioned Psychic very well, especially as if you leave Gerik there against the Demon King, he WILL die. Now that all that's out of the way, let's look at one other thing we passed up in this whole exhibition: Supports. Gerik wins Supports by a damn mile for one main reason: Tethys. Gerik is the only reasonable support option for Tethys in terms of usability, and the support is only 13 turns to C, 33 turns to B, and 53 turns to A. This support gives Gerik half Attack, Defense, Accuracy, and Crit Evasion, as well as full Avoid and Critical, which gives Gerik a significant boost even at a mere B rank. Gerik's already sitting on extremely competent avoid, and with a full Avoid support from Tethys, it's even better. Gerik can also pick up supports from Innes (who has no other reasonable options), Saleh (that unit you're probably using instead of Lute, and another character whose only reasonable support is Gerik), and even Joshua. Lute, on the other hand has... Artur. Granted, this support is pretty good for both of them (Half Attack / Accuracy and full Defense / Avoid / Critical Avoid), but it still requires chaining together two mages who for most of the game would prefer to stay far, far away from each other and are more likely to murder the other in their sleep for claim to one of the two reasonable Guiding Rings. So yeah, Gerik has loads of options which he has essentially full claim to, while Lute is stuck tagging along with another mage who probably doesn't need her help and is going to end up getting her killed while they build up said support anyway. This is why I didn't bring up supports. I'll try and think of a good argument here for my third post. So yeah. TL;DR: - Gerik is a manly man who causes enemies to flee with one flex of his muscles - His high starting level and excellent base stats plus advantages in chapters 10 and 11 give him a sizeable level lead before promotion - Lute's stats are mediocre for most of the game and require multiple stat boosters to merely equalize with Gerik's badassitude - Lute's defenses are paper thin while Gerik's are awesome - Lute's one support is pretty good, but Gerik's every support is better (except marisa who sucks but who cares) - Merely justifying fielding Lute is hard to defend when you have multiple Bishops and a free super-lute in the form of Saleh, while Gerik is a man without an equal Disproved thoroughly in the insane essay above. GOGOGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 So you're assuming Artur is our ONLY magic user until...like...Chapter 12, when Moulder and/or Natasha promote and you get Saleh? Yeah...good luck making it through earlygame with just Artur. Since when was this a game where you "needed" a magic user? Physical defense is terrible, and you get an armorslayer in Chapter 5, before any knights other than the boss, Saar, shows up. In fact, many of the early scrub enemies have more resistance than defense (I'm lookin at you, random bonewalkers and revenants). Armors show up briefly in chapter 6 (where they are placed in such a way that Lute has a hell of a time getting to them), and then are fairly prominent in chapter 8 (well, one room full of them, but that's only one part of the mission). After that, Knights don't show up until Chapter 13, and again, they're close to Rangers that take Lute's head off without a second thought. By that time, Hammers are buyable, so Hero Gerik can be swinging Hammers and damn near OHKOing the armors. Magic users are FAR from obligatory in any game, but this one takes the cake. I think the only game where you're actually obligated to raise a mage is FE12, and only because there's an enemy that can only be damaged by a specific magic tome. An okay magic growth? Lute has the best magic growth in the entire game. Besides, Artur doesn't double stuff for a while either, so... And Lilina has the best Magic growth in the GBA games. Guess how far that gets her? Seriously...who else are you using on this map? Lute's forced as is. Also, Seth is the only unit you have that can really ORKO anything on this map (besides an overleveled Franz with WTA) And remember: we're not arguing about whether Lute or Gerik should be used. We're arguing about which one is 'better'. Actually, ORKOing isn't that out there. Garcia ORKOs Revenants, Seth ORKOs everything, Franz should be ORKOing the Mogalls and might even stand a chance at the Bonewalkers. Eirika's got Rapier for minor crithax, as well. Furthermore, Lute is 2HKOed in this chapter and starts so far away from the action that 2/3 of a level is stretching it. At least Artur gets to do stuff on turn 1, and he can double Bonewalkers at base. I'll give this to you, but you have to remember that Gerik still doesn't exist, and not many of your units are ORKOing consistently. You need someone to finish off weakened units, and Lute has a handy 2 range-why not her? The chapter 2 World Map shop has Javelins and Hand Axes, so really, the only person without 2-range at this stage in the game is Eirika. Difference is that Lute is the only person not capable of ORKOing Soldiers on your team other than Artur (who still has Bishop to fall back on) First: this means she's the only 2 range unit you have that ORKOs Soldiers. good christ i think you need some reading comprehension classes bro Hand Axes and Javelins are buyable in Chapter 2's World Map shop. To ORKO a Soldier with a Hand Axe you need to double him and have 6 Strength. Garcia does it at base. To ORKO a Soldier with a Javelin you need 8 Strength. Gilliam just needs a speed proc, Franz a Strength proc, and Vanessa... well, she's out of luck. Seth is busy murdering everything, soooooo... As a side note, even Neimi can ORKO Soldiers provided she's gotten 2 Speed procs and a Strength proc, and she's been around for just as long as Lute has, but has better growths in that area. So no, Lute's actually way late to the party here. All the competent units have been havin' a ball ORKOing soldiers at range. And for all you say about Artur being so much better than Lute, in this chapter she's superior. With all the chokepoints in the chapter, she can easily destroy slightly weakened Knights and whatnot. In addition, she's pretty much the only unit you have that can consistently ORKO or 2RKO Mages over walls without taking much damage. Also, Forde and Kyle show up way on the other side of the map, so why are they interfering with Lute's EXP gain? And are you really using three Paladins anyway? I'd say she's definitely getting two levels here. Chokepoints? We don't have time to dick around and mess with chokepoints here. Seth is gonna be our king vanguard, and we're not sitting around with our thumbs up our asses waiting for a horde of Knights to bash themselves against our one sturdy unit. Lute might get some chip on some Knights in this chapter but she's not ORKOing them yet, which is a problem for her. Hell, Seth may well be ORKOing all those knights with the Armorslayer. You have enough units that taking a little damage is hardly an issue. Seth has 8 Resistance (probably 9 by now) so he gives 0 damns about Mages coming and messing with him. Everyone else has enough HP that they can afford to take a hit and keep chugging. Lute's the only one that has to stay behind if she scrapes her knee, because of her awful defensive stats. Also yeah, three paladins is definitely a good idea. We're playing efficiently here, and Paladins are damn near the most efficient units you'll come across. The reason that they interfere with Lute's EXP gain is because likelihood is Seth is barreling toward the throne with Vanessa carrying Eirika right behind him, so the only real open "enemies" for Lute to kill are the ones over in the direction of Ephraim. Level 6? You make me laugh, sir. Lute can be at Level 7 at the very least, assuming she picks up an extra level somewhere along the way, from extra kills in Chapter 8 and whatnot. Actually it's quite possible for her to be Level 8, but that's stretching it a bit. I'll meet you in the middle and say she's level 7. It still doesn't improve things much. So...apparently you assume we're leaving Lute on the frontlines the entire game, and Mages all magically avoid Gerik. Yeah, I don't think so. Gerik takes pretty big damage from Mages, while Lute is practically invincible to them, 4HKOed most of the time. M'dear, I do believe you're misconstruing the point. Lute can't just sit around and do nothing- the frontlines are where the enemies are, and you actually need to kill enemies to win the game. Furthermore, I think you're highly overestimating how many enemy mages there are in the game. - In chapter 10, there's only two, and they're dead before Gerik gets recruited. - Chapter 11's got exactly two Mogalls on each route, which isn't enough to threaten anyone. - Chapter 12 likely has your flyers dealing with the Mogalls, NOT Gerik. The Mogalls are all hovering around over the mountains where flyers go and engage them. - No mages on 13 or the main route of 14 (there's a room full of them but that's the treasure room), and in chapter 15, there's only two of them next to Caellach and none in the south. So yeah, mages are NOT a major concern for Gerik for the most part. On top of that, his resistance isn't actually that bad- he's gonna be sitting on 7 or 8 resistance by the time he actually needs to fight mages. You see, there are these things called lances. In the midgame, nearly everything uses them. Most things that have Lances (read: everything besides Soldiers) will not be ORKO'd by Gerik, and will do decent amounts of damage to him. Seeing as Shamans are basically from chapters 14-19, Lute doesn't really suffer from WTD. Have you looked at the calculations there? Cavaliers have 29 HP / 7 Defense, meaning with WTD he needs 23 Atk to ORKO. Oh wait, we've got Joshua's Killing Edge OR the Iron Blade. Cavaliers are the most defensive Lance user on the map, so that's that. On top of that, Gerik's 13 base Skill helps close the gap significantly, especially if he's using the Killing Edge (and since you probably dropped Joshua by now, he's got a pretty good claim to it). Because everybody knows we want three Bishops for our endgame party, right? And we want to just leave one of the best tomes in the game sitting in storage (Excalibur), right? Definitely! Saleh shows up with auto-A Anima. That Excalibur tome isn't "going unused" if Lute isn't used, it's just being used by a more competent character. And yes, Bishops are fantastic for endgame considering that they have automatic effective might against monster characters. Yeah...uh-huh. Even if Gerik is built like a brick, taking on 15 reinforcements might be a bit too much even for him. Lute has these magical things called 'healers'! Imagine that! And again, you assume we're throwing Lute on the frontline. We're not. She can easily pick off weakened Mercenaries and Myrmidons, seeing as very few of you units ORKO them. She gets one kill tops because of the fact that all the enemies are going to end up dead by turn 2. She can't dream of going near the boss because of the ballistae and the mercenaries, and the south is no more friendly for her. This is not a good map for her in the slightest considering that most enemies on the map ORKO her and she doubles, well... nothing but the Soldiers that EVERYONE doubles. 1 level is more than she deserves. As for "15 reinforcements", let's take a look at the enemies there. Iron Lance soldiers do 6 damage to him if they hit, a 5HKO. The brigands are never going to hit him. The Myrmidons do 3 damage to him, a 10HKO. Even with just an elixir (which you get a couple of in chapter 5x and a free one in chapter 2), he's got more than enough durability to take whatever you throw at him. Plus he's got Innes for backup and Tethys to let him wreck 2 lives per turn. Because...apparently we want Gerik to solo entire portions of maps, right? A lot of your powerful physical tanks can do the same thing here. Lute's ORKOing a lot of Bonewalkers and Entombed, and can easily pick up a level or two for herself here. Since you're "not on the frontlines" you're only doing one per turn. When you compare a character with no enemy phase with a character that is nigh on immune to death from monsters, you'll find the one that gets a bunch of kills on enemy phase is the one that gets the lion's share of the EXP. Furthermore, EVERYONE can ORKO Bonewalkers and Revenants at this stage of the game. That's not something to be proud of. Difference is that they can do it on Enemy Phase, which means that they can be extended much farther than Lute can. Lute also wants nothing to do with: - The boss (south) - Mauthe Doogs (east) - Gargoyles (southeast) On top of that, the south is incredible for Gerik. He's already looking at 30 Eva, but the Forest raises that up to 50 (plus 11-12 defense). The cavaliers aren't making it through the forest tiles, most likely, since there's like 5 of them and it's a tight corridor. It's also choked with enemies that he can murder for free, including the boss! Even if Lute wanted some of this action, she can't have any because there's nothing left except maybe the Archer once Gerik's done bossing his way through that corridor. Aaaaand, that's a wrap. Considering that you have actual units capable of doing actual things with 7 move and stuff, 1 level is extremely kind to her. Fix'd. If Gerik can get 2 and 3 levels, Lute can easily pick up 1.5 and 2.5, for the reasons I stated above. Not in a million years. She's 10 at best. Meanwhile, enemies have 3/4 as much Res and sometimes WTA over Gerik, seeing as Swords and Lances are both pretty common midgame. Lute may not be doing AS much damage, but she's coming close. And besides, she has good 1-2 range. Gerik does not. Did you miss that this is where Gerik promoted? He's got Hand Axes, and if that coming off of 17 Strength and Skill isn't "good 2 range", I don't know what is. Besides, he doubles and she still doesn't. That's way better 2 range than Lute's packing. Yeah, sure. Do we remember what game we're playing? You have probably five different units that can do the exact same thing you're describing here. Yep, and Lute's not one of them. Gerik being one of 6 great units is better than Lute being unique at mediocrity. However, Lute's the strongest 1-2 range you've got. Gerik's basically going to be stuck with Hand Axe for the entire game, while Lute can choose from a wide variety of magic. Since when does "Fire" and "Thunder" count as a wide variety? They both suck, Elfire is way too heavy for Lute's candy ass to haul around, and Fimbulvetr / Bolting / Excalibur / whatever else basically doesn't exist. Besides, in cases where 2 range isn't needed, Gerik's completely fucking crushing her. Also Gerik has at least 4 more Atk than her at 2 range AND doubles everything except Mercenaries/myrms. Lute's far from your "strongest 1-2 range". If Gerik chooses to use the Hand Axe, there are several Sword-wielding Bonewalkers he doesn't ORKO, in addition to the Baels. Lute ORKOS all the Bonewalkers, and does insane damage to the Baels. Newsflash. Bonewalkers have 5 Def and 29 HP. They also have about dick in the way of dodge. At the very least Gerik's looking at 75 hit on them, or 87.75% true hit at 2 range. Baels are 37 HP and 9 Def, and Gerik's doing 32 damage to them. Difference is that Gerik has the option of whipping out Steel and just outright killing them. Lute doesn't. That's also handwaving the fact that there are a lot of other enemies on this map, like Mauthe Doogs and Gargoyles, which Lute wants nothing to do with. And they're EVERYWHERE. She also can't hurt the Mogalls, which have WTA on her as well. Also, as an aside, let me pose a question. Lute is around level 10 here, 11 if you want to be overly generous. Here she is. Lute - Level 10 Mage HP: 21.05 Str: 11.85 Skl: 8.7 Spe: 11.05 Lck: 12.05 Def: 4.35 Res: 8.6 Con: 3 B Anima Then, in chapter 12, this true bro shows up: Saleh - Level 1 Sage HP: 30 Str: 16 Skl: 18 Spe: 14 Lck: 11 Def: 8 Res: 13 Con: 8 A Anima, B Light, C Staves Care to explain to me why we're still training Lute by now? We're short on rings, and it would be really nice to have a staffer and a Monk to round things out. This guy doesn't even need one. Meanwhile, Lute's got more Mov, most likely a higher Anima rank by now, and most likely higher Mag. Besides, are you just going to completely ignore that Lute was around for eight chapters where Saleh didn't even exist? Nah, Lute was cute during those chapters, but now it's time for the big boys to have a turn. Saleh has actual durability, enough Speed to actually double things, and the ability to use top tier Light tomes AND Physic at base. Lute has... a horse. And that's after she promotes, which is highly suspect when Saleh puts her on blast forever. First of all: Lute's not Level 11 here. She was there a chapter ago, and seeing as Chapter 12 is an easy EXP mine for her she can easily grab a level or two there. And Lute really isn't getting ORKO'd at this point. Stuff like Myrmidons don't pack the sheer might to do it, and anything strong enough to kil her in one hit (read: basically nothing) is facing something like 50% hit against her due to her pretty great Speed and amazing Luck. If Lute's speed is "pretty great" then I'm the queen of England. Nobody with "pretty great" speed gets doubled. Furthermore, at 21 HP / 4 Defense, it takes 15 Atk to 2HKO her, and by now, Myrmidons are using non-steel. Rangers can ORKO her with Iron, and they pop up in chapter 13 and 15. So apparently, Gerik can equip a sword and an axe to get WTA against the whole map? Right? No. The Cavs here are pretty mixed with their weapons, so it's not like Gerik can wade into the midst of them and ORKO them all while taking no damage. Sure, he'll decimate half of it, but the half with the weapons with WTA on him won't get ORKO'd and will do pretty good damage to him. The guy's not invincible. First off, let's dispute "not invincible". Gerik's got by now 41 HP and 14 Defense. That means that he takes 1 damage from Iron Sword Cavaliers at WTD. That's a 41HKO. Lances tink him due to WTD. That's a neverHKO. I think invincible is a fitting word. Hell, other than the boss, the Rangers are the strongest enemies on the map, and they do 5 damage. That's a 9HKO. If that's not invincible, I don't know what is (except maybe Seth, who's doing even better by now). Let's take a look at these cavaliers defensively. The strongest ones have 31 HP / 9 Def, so with WTD, it takes 26 Mt to ORKO them at range. Those are also higher-end, so if they roll either 8 Def or 30 HP, we're down to 25 Mt to 2HKO with WTD. Gerik just needs one more STR proc to do that, which is actually fairly likely Then again, who cares about range, the guy's incredible and can whip out a 1-range weapon to ORKO them guaranteed. That's not something Lute can do. Oh, and just to hammer home the point, Saleh can ORKO these guys. Lute can't. Why are we using Lute past chapter 11 again? So you're planning to leave Gerik sitting there killing Snipers for, what, 9 turns on end? Okay then. And Lute ORKOs nearly everything on this map, besides the Snipers that you should be rushing past anyway and the lolShamans (and the boss, ofc), or comes really damn close. And while the boss can't 2HKO Gerik normally, our brave Hero is facing something like 30% crit. Gerik can't touch Caryle from two range to prevent this, while Lute can something like 4RKO him (but probably won't die). Carlyle is probably getting Sethed to death (or Seth + your other paladins), so Gerik's main use is going to be either cleaning things up or completely sweeping the right side. Lute's probably in the same boat, but she can't do fancy shit like solo the right side (Rennac ORKOs Lute, while Gerik doesn't ORKO Rennac, which allows you to recruit him). Lute will always be second-string, cleaning up after other people's messes, while Gerik can basically just run off alone and do whatever he wants. Erm...not sure what to say here. Just remember that Lute has good enough Avo (especially on Sand) that it's not likely she gets ORKO'd. The enemies here that ORKO her are Rangers (high SKL, bows), so their hitrate is laughably high against her. Other than that, there's Mercenaries and Myrmidons, both with enough SKL and sword HIT to damn near negate her entirely underwhelming avoid. ...What. I agree, Lute has no right to a Speedwing and a Robe. But you're giving them to her...so I'll go with it. Hey, if you say she has no right, I'll go with it. Lute no longer has a wing and a robe. Here's the stat headsup. Gerik Lute Level: 15/4 13/3 HP: 43.1 26.3 Str: 18.6 16.9 Skl: 18.2 11.2 Spe: 17.4 13.3 Lck: 10.4 14.3 Def: 14.8 7.1 Res: 8 12.2 Con: 15 7 Lute: crushed. Gerik's looking at a lead of 17 HP, 2 Str, 7 Skl, 4 Speed, 8 Defense, and only loses by 4 Luck and Res (and with a HP lead like that, who cares about the Resistance?). Again with the specialized weapons. When will you realize that when Gerik equips a special weapon to kill something, he's wide open to something else? It's not like he has infinite inventory space either, nor do you get infinite Halberds and Hammers. Seems as if Gerik can make any weapon he needs appear with the snap of his fingers. Not likely. Gerik has 5 weapon slots. Steel Sword, Steel Axe, Hand Axe, Specialty Weapon. He's even got room for an elixir or a second specialty weapon (or a Silver Sword or something)! On top of that, Hammers are buyable on the world map for 800G each. You get a halberd in Chapter 6, and you don't even need it that often, only to KO priority targets, since Gerik can ORKO basically any mount except Aias and some other random stuff. Besides, you can't really handwave Gerik's ability to use these with a bullshit argument like "well there's not infinite". 15 uses of amazing (plus infinite hammer) is better than none. Gerik gets pounded by the Sage and the Druids here too. And besides, it's not like Gerik is ORKOing the Swordmaster anyway. Also, Lute can ORKO the Berseker from range before he kills her (he has piss poor hit on her anyway). Otherwise, fair enough. Gerik ORKOs the map except for Lyon and the Swordmaster/Heroes (which nobody ORKOs). Lute does far, far worse, and with less durability. Also, ORKO the Berserker? Not bloody likely. 44 HP / 3 Res means you need 25 Mt to 2HKO... except he's also got 12 AS, which means you don't double him. Meanwhile, he's swinging Silver, so that "piss poor hit" is still >50. Oh, and he's got 34 Attack with said axe. He OHKOs her. Have a nice day. Lute can still ORKO the Gorgon Eggs, which is an extremely useful quality to have. Besides, do you think Gerik kills all the Gorgons without taking any damage? No: he takes big damamge from Demon Surge, and Stone fucks him the same as anybody else. Hooray, Lute does the same thing anyone else with a pulse does. Only difference is, she has WTD against the most threatening enemy on the map, and the only way to get around that enemy is dodging. Fun times. Again with the special weapons thing. Too lazy to repeat my argument, see above. And again you assume we're putting Lute on the front lines or something. We're not. If you're lazy, I'm lazy. Again, check the above argument for why special weapons are perfectly reasonable. Plus, I'd really like to know where this magical "not front line" zone is where Lute still sees combat. Unless she's only fighting one enemy per turn, she's gotta be "on the front line". Gerik can fight pretty much as many enemies as he wants per turn, and kill them all too. And why in the world wouldn't Lute be using Excalibur? It's got plenty of durability for the last two chapters. By your own logic, using it Lute basically rapes the whole map besides the Cyclopses (Gerik doesn't ORKO) and the Arch Mongalls (which do big damage to Gerik at range). I can live with that. Don't you remember? She doesn't get the Speedwing any more. Here's her stats. Gerik Lute Level: 15/10 13/10 HP: 48.5 29.45 Str: 21.3 21.45 Skl: 20.6 12.7 Spe: 19.2 16.35 Lck: 12.2 17.45 Def: 16.9 8.15 Res: 9.5 15.4 Con: 15 7 Doesn't ORKO the Cyclops, and she's literally 2HKOed by all except for the two weakest enemies on the map - the Longbow Wight and the Javelin Wight. Gerik, on the other hand, doesn't give a good goddamn. His worst matchups are the Gorgons and Arch Mogalls, and he OHKOs them, I do believe. Lute doesn't and only has 6 more Res (minus WTD, so 5) than Gerik while losing by almost 20 HP. Oh, also. Now that she doesn't have the robe, she's OHKOed by the Dracozombies, which don't move until you pull them. Unless you want to lag behind and let Lute catch up while you try and pull the Dracozombies, she's not participating much in that chapter. She also doesn't double the Elder Baels if they're 12 Speed, and they damn near OHKO her, dealing 23/29 damage to her. She also doesn't OHKO them. Oh, and the Demon King still OHKOs her. I'm gonna bring up something Lute can probably do half-decently by now: healing. By now she can have at LEAST a C in staffs easily, so she can use Psychic. She's contributing to your team in a way Gerik never could. Now that that's out of the way, Lute basically ORKOs the entire map besides Draco Zombies (Gerik can't beat them either), Arch Mongalls and Gorgons (Which both do big damage to Gerik at range and can Stone him with pretty good Hit). During the final battle, she can support with the after mentioned Psychic very well, especially as if you leave Gerik there against the Demon King, he WILL die. So Lute's busy being a fourth string healer trying to spam up for C Staves? Artur doesn't even need to spam for C Staves, he just gets them on promo. Either staffer does the same once promoted, and Saleh as C Staves at base. Lute's not priority for healing, and the fact that you'd be healing with her just means she can't cut it as a combat unit. Sure, "she can do it", but that's not the reason you use her. You have other healers that are just as good if not better, and on top of that, promoted Staff EXP is awful, so if you're actually using staves enough to get to C Stabes, you're probably losing around 2 levels total, which really hurts her endgame performance. Oh, and the Demon King is dying on turn 1. There's no "leaving there". You take 2 units that can each 2RKO the Demon King, and you throw them at him. Gerik happens to be one of those units, and Lute does not. Tough break. This is why I didn't bring up supports. I'll try and think of a good argument here for my third post. Yeah, except there is no defense to it. Lute's support is not only pretty long, but while you're building it up, you're chaining together two units that have no business standing next to each other. No thanks. Anyway, Lute's leveling issues, sheer outclassedness, and lack of stats worthy of deployment make her far inferior to Gerik. She's nice when she's your only option, but once it gets serious, she gets serious...ly useless. Saleh outclasses her at everything, and Saleh is still questionable compared to Gerik. If that's true, the Lute / Gerik matchup can't be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss-Head Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 I forfeit o noes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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