Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

[Bearissoslow]

Good is a comparative term. You can't have good without bad. Soren is a far better Sage when levelled, albeit some people would bitch about leveling him. Ilyana is a good Sage as well, only lacking in Speed. Tormod... is awful and should never be used unless you're lolgay for Celerity and shitty Est-esque units. Calill is stuck with Knives instead of Staves, which is just a putridly bad option, and her only real advantages are that she starts out with good weapon ranks + Nihil. Other than that, she's pretty much a crappy pre-promote with crappy availability.

She's currently second worst. That's not "good" to me.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[Radiant Dragon]

Good is a comparative term. You can't have good without bad. Soren is a far better Sage when levelled, albeit some people would bitch about leveling him. Ilyana is a good Sage as well, only lacking in Speed. Tormod... is awful and should never be used unless you're lolgay for Celerity and shitty Est-esque units. Calill is stuck with Knives instead of Staves, which is just a putridly bad option, and her only real advantages are that she starts out with good weapon ranks + Nihil. Other than that, she's pretty much a crappy pre-promote with crappy availability.

She's currently second worst. That's not "good" to me.

In my opinion, Tormod is the best Sage because we have so much BEXP training him is a non-issue, and Celerity is just that good. Calill can ORKO most enemies for the next few chapters after she joins without any training whatsoever, and can use all 3 siege tomes (which your other Sages will probably never be able to do without Arms Scrolls). Her stats are good, and she should not be dismissed just because 'lolpremote'.

Just because the Mages can outclass her due to staves (and Celerity in Tormod's case), that has no impact on Calill's performance.

[Bearissoslow]

"Tormod is the best sage imo"

I wanted to stop reading there.

"BEXP training him isn't an issue"

You have to baby Tormod to get him anywhere, and you're suggesting that I waste valuable BEXP that could easily go to any other deserving character on Tormod alone when I could've easily had a superior mage by this point? lolwut?

To begin with, grinding with BEXP not only heavily depletes the resource, but it also is extremely difficult to do in itself. By that point in time, I'd say you could get maybe two to three levels on BEXP alone without wasting all of it entirely. You placed higher emphasis on BEXP training instead of combat training, so by 9/-, he's barely noticeable.

Tormod 9/-: 21.5 HP, 2.6 Strength, 11.35 Magic, 10.2 Skill, 10.35 Speed, 9.05 Luck, 4.75 Defense, 10.35 Resistance

That's thoroughly unimpressive and not even deployable. He comes into Ch. 16 where prepromotes actually start showing up in numbers, meaning that you have to baby him relentlessly or beef him up with unreasonably high amounts of BEXP. He's not doubling anything but Knights and Bandits, which are something anyone else could handle in a safer and more efficient manner. Then you've got Day Breaks, the chapter where a majority of your units should be promoting. Let's not forget that this chapter isn't Tormod-friendly because units will bum rush the fuck out of you, leaving you little to no opportunities to weaken and baby. You'll be forced to use your best units to avoid serious damage, and Tormod cannot deliver in that regard with only one chapter of possible battle experience.

"Celerity is just that good."

No, it really isn't. Celerity doesn't make a unit less frail or stronger, it just makes them better at getting somewhere faster. This is Path of Paladins Radiance, the game with some of the most utilizable Paladins in the series. You have no reason to need a frail unit to move better when he's a ranged unit that wants to attack from afar anyway. At least the case for Astrid can be made because she joins frail and remains frail, but Paragon is such a great ability that it makes her workable. With Tormod, it just doesn't even work for him.

Sorry for side tracking the Calill debate but holy shit Tormod is an awful unit. I know it's your opinion but your reasoning is just wrong.

As for Calill, you've overrating what it means to 0RKO. She's 0RKOing most units, but barely better than Tormod at the same level. You might say that she's doing better than Ilyana, but Ilyana is walking in with supports from both Gatrie (lolheaven) and Zihark/Mia, something Calill doesn't get until at least Ch. 21. Let's not forget Soren, who will have deliciously amazing stats when levelled and B Ike to ride on as well. She's doing a job that anyone can do in a less efficient way than either of the two better sages that have great availability.

Lastly, you mention weapon ranks, but who honestly cares about having anything above D rank when Thunder magic is probably the only magic you'll ever need? I'm not trying to negate her advantage, which she does have, it's just kind of irrelevant and unimportant. It's sort of like giving Pent credit for starting with A rank with Louise. That's cool and all, but it's just not that important since no one ever uses Louise and it more or less traps him into it. Calill only really needs to be able to use Elwind and Elfire since most people will be using Elthunder. It's still a positive for her, just not nearly as grand of one as you make it out to be.

TL;DR: Use Calill if you're too lazy to use Soren/Ilyana even though they're better then yeah sure Calill is great.

[Radiant Dragon]

The game being dominated by high move units is why Celerity is so great. He is able to keep up much better than any of the other Sages. And we get so much BEXP in this game that running out is a non-issue unless you're trying to use way too many units.

It's not like Soren and Ilyana don't need BEXP, because they do. And they will continue to rely on it to keep up in levels because they get left behind and can't see as much combat due to their bad durability. They have more availability, which gives them a level advantage, but this gap is easily closed and then Tormod wins for the rest of the game.

@Calill: Yes, other units ORKO. Does that matter? Calill still comes in as a great combatant right out of the box, needing no resources to perform on par with your other units. Also, the weapon ranks comment was directed solely at the B-rank siege tomes, and the Mages will never be able to use them all like she can.

Also, Soren's stats aren't that great. Better than Calill's sure, but not enough to make much of a difference in performance (he dodges more than her if he has the Ike support, and that's about it).

[Florete]

"Tormod is the best sage imo"

I can side with this. My order would probably be Tormod > Calill > Ilyana > Soren.

No, I am not joking.

"BEXP training him isn't an issue"

You have to baby Tormod to get him anywhere, and you're suggesting that I waste valuable BEXP that could easily go to any other deserving character on Tormod alone when I could've easily had a superior mage by this point? lolwut?

Or you could keep the BEXP that you would have spent on another Mage and give it to Tormod, giving you a superior Mage in the end. Out of the three Mages in this game, Tormod has both the best Str and Spd, giving him the best AS by a longshot, and enough Mag considering enemies have poor Res (and who else should a Spirit Dust go to?). Add in Celerity and we have a winner.

Or you can use two. There's a lot of BEXP in this game as RD noted.

Tormod 9/-: 21.5 HP, 2.6 Strength, 11.35 Magic, 10.2 Skill, 10.35 Speed, 9.05 Luck, 4.75 Defense, 10.35 Resistance

That's thoroughly unimpressive and not even deployable.

That's also quite low. Give him a few more levels, then we'll talk.

"Celerity is just that good."

No, it really isn't. Celerity doesn't make a unit less frail or stronger, it just makes them better at getting somewhere faster. This is Path of Paladins Radiance, the game with some of the most utilizable Paladins in the series.

Let's recap what you just said:

-Celerity is not that good.

-This game is dominated by high move mounted units.

Did you miss something?

As for Calill, you've overrating what it means to 0RKO. She's 0RKOing most units, but barely better than Tormod at the same level. You might say that she's doing better than Ilyana, but Ilyana is walking in with supports from both Gatrie (lolheaven) and Zihark/Mia, something Calill doesn't get until at least Ch. 21. Let's not forget Soren, who will have deliciously amazing stats when levelled and B Ike to ride on as well. She's doing a job that anyone can do in a less efficient way than either of the two better sages that have great availability.

Ilyana's supports don't do much for her. She needs Spd more than anything, which she obviously isn't given, and she won't be particularly durable even with maxed out supports. Soren is even worse, if you ask me. His Str makes his Spd problematic with anything stronger than Wind, and does Ike really want to support him anyway? I'd take the likes of Titania, Oscar, and/or Reyson over Soren, especially considering instances where Ike needs to be Rescue-dropped for Seizing. SorenxIke is pretty one-sided when you consider Ike's alternatives. Soren's awful start isn't helping him.

Lastly, you mention weapon ranks, but who honestly cares about having anything above D rank when Thunder magic is probably the only magic you'll ever need?

Long range magic is pretty cool.

[dondon151]

As for Calill, you've overrating what it means to 0RKO.

So... KOing enemies as quickly as possible is not what we want?

She's 0RKOing most units, but barely better than Tormod at the same level. You might say that she's doing better than Ilyana, but Ilyana is walking in with supports from both Gatrie (lolheaven) and Zihark/Mia, something Calill doesn't get until at least Ch. 21. Let's not forget Soren, who will have deliciously amazing stats when levelled and B Ike to ride on as well. She's doing a job that anyone can do in a less efficient way than either of the two better sages that have great availability.

If Calill ORKOs, and Ilyana and Soren ORKO, then how is that a bad thing? It's more efficient to use Calill because we didn't have to put up with Soren's and Ilyana's sorry butts for 10-20 chapters.

Lastly, you mention weapon ranks, but who honestly cares about having anything above D rank when Thunder magic is probably the only magic you'll ever need?

Wow, I think you have serious reading comprehension issues. RD pretty clearly said "all 3 siege tomes" in his post. Are you able to put on a straight face and say that there is not one circumstance in the game where using a siege tome is advantageous?

Didn't think so.

It's sort of like giving Pent credit for starting with A rank with Louise. That's cool and all, but it's just not that important since no one ever uses Louise and it more or less traps him into it.

Pent's Louise support is one of like, 4 supports that are actually feasibly obtainable in an efficient playthrough, and the bonuses are situationally worth deploying Louise for. Louise is also a decent filler unit in a pinch (you are probably going to object to this and insist on Rebecca or Wil being better).

[Anouleth]

Good is a comparative term. You can't have good without bad. Soren is a far better Sage when levelled, albeit some people would bitch about leveling him. Ilyana is a good Sage as well, only lacking in Speed.

Since Speed is basically the most important stat in the game, I think that's actually a pretty serious flaw.

Tormod... is awful and should never be used unless you're lolgay for Celerity and shitty Est-esque units.

Tormod is a perfectly acceptable unit to use, that I frequently use in my own efficient runs. You fail to grasp that joining underlevelled in this game is not a serious handicap, and Tormod doesn't even join that late (for example, Ilyana has only 7 complete chapters on him). This is because of the existence of BEXP. In practice Tormod requires just as much EXP (or less due to a higher base level) as Ilyana and Soren, the handicap is that because he cannot gain it through CEXP, he needs to gain it through BEXP.

Calill is stuck with Knives instead of Staves, which is just a putridly bad option, and her only real advantages are that she starts out with good weapon ranks + Nihil. Other than that, she's pretty much a crappy pre-promote with crappy availability.

She's currently second worst. That's not "good" to me.

Ilyana needs to be level 20/11 to match Calill's base speed. That's not "good" to me.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Black★Star

[Bearissoslow]

WELL FUCK

k I responded to RD, Red, and don in this post and it magically got deleted. Time in my life I'll never get back /cutcutcut

Edited May 6, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[Radiant Dragon]

When did 'being able to keep up' become synonymous with 'tanking on the front lines'? The fact is that Celerity gives Tormod the flexibility to be more useful than any other Sage, letting him see more combat and letting him heal the high move units (When are Soren and Ilyana getting to C staves, unless you early promote them and neuter their offense?). This idea is why Mist > Rhys.

We get so much BEXP in this game, we can raise whoever the hell we want unless we try to use too many units. Unless you can somehow prove to me that Tormod can't get enough BEXP to hold his own (hint: It's not as much as you're making it out to be), I'm not going to continue to argue with you assuming near-base level Tormod in Chapter 16.

I don't particularly care about supports (I don't like chaining my units to each other), but I know Ike has better people to support than Soren (Oscar, Boyd, Titania), and Stefan doesn't give Soren anything Soren wants. At least Tormod can take Calill for some decent bonuses.

Also, on average Tormod has more speed than Ilyana, slightly less speed than Soren but more strength than either of them (for example, he'll have more AS than Soren if they both use Elthunder). Tormod also has more defense than them, but it's not enough to edge out a significant durability advantage.

@Soren vs. Calill: First off, 20/6 for Soren in chapter 20 seems a little high, but I'm not going to bother arguing that. Instead, let's take a closer look at their stats.

Soren has over Calill: 2.4 Magic, 5.2 Skill, 1.6 Speed, 5.2 Resistance. Everything else is pretty similar, or Strength and Luck, which Calill wins.

The Speed lead is negated by Calill's higher strength, letting her use Elthunder with equal AS than Soren. Also, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, at best.

So Soren has slightly more Magic, or slightly more Speed if he uses a weaker but lighter tome than Calill. The question is: Do these 'leads' let Soren ORKO anything Calill can't? If they don't, they don't mean anything. Keep in mind that Calill has required zero resources at this point, while Soren has needed BEXP and CEXP to reach this point. Also notice how their durability is eerily similar, so I don't know where this 'less safely and less efficiently' stuff came from.

Soren can use Staves, but Mist, Tormod and even Rhys use them better, and this game is so easy that healing isn't worth very much. It is a minor point in his favor, though.

[Bearissoslow]

When did 'being able to keep up' become synonymous with 'tanking on the front lines'?

It didn't, but what else would more movement help him do? Rush the enemy hypothetically? Sages only need 6 movement since they don't rush and they have no reason to be where Paladins and Fliers are.

The fact is that Celerity gives Tormod the flexibility to be more useful than any other Sage, letting him see more combat and letting him heal the high move units (When are Soren and Ilyana getting to C staves, unless you early promote them and neuter their offense?). This idea is why Mist > Rhys.

Mist is better than Rhys because she has Canto, not because she has more movement. Bad comparison is bad.

And again, I've already said that 2 movement isn't doing a great deal when you have Physics staves and long range attacking. There's no need to make rubber more flexible. I'm not negating this advantage, just that it's not that great.

Lastly, C staves is not difficult to reach. Heal spam at every turn for the first few chapters after a Sage is promoted and you can slap a Physic in their hand in no time.

We get so much BEXP in this game, we can raise whoever the hell we want unless we try to use too many units. Unless you can somehow prove to me that Tormod can't get enough BEXP to hold his own (hint: It's not as much as you're making it out to be), I'm not going to continue to argue with you assuming near-base level Tormod in Chapter 16.

If it's not as much BEXP as I'm saying it is, then how much is it? How much BEXP are you going to tap into for Tormod? If you're going to negate my argument, you need to provide numbers for a decent counterargument, jsyk. You've done nothing but say "You're wrong because I said so" thus far, use some actual data to support your argument.

I don't particularly care about supports (I don't like chaining my units to each other), but I know Ike has better people to support than Soren (Oscar, Boyd, Titania), and Stefan doesn't give Soren anything Soren wants. At least Tormod can take Calill for some decent bonuses.

"supporting with Boyd"

Sigh. He doesn't support with Boyd.

"supporting with Titania"

SIGH, the support is awful. Heaven is a trashy affinity that gives 15% hit (at A rank) and the support doesn't reach A rank for at least twenty something chapters (making it the longest to grow chapter). Guess what Darkness gives? 1.5% attack and 7.5% avoid (at A rank). Tell me why Ike wants lousy hit + low avoid over low attack + decent avoid when his hit is never an issue.

Also, on average Tormod has more speed than Ilyana, slightly less speed than Soren but more strength than either of them (for example, he'll have more AS than Soren if they both use Elthunder). Tormod also has more defense than them, but it's not enough to edge out a significant durability advantage.

Your point being? If Ilyana is slighted by Speed, oh darn, she has less Speed. She still has better availability and supports and doesn't need babying to the extent that Tormod does. Oh, and she has a better start in Thunder weapon levels. IMO the tradeoff is worth it, but even then, 2 movement + more Speed (when babied to an equivalent level comparable to Ilyana's) isn't that superb in itself.

@Soren vs. Calill: First off, 20/6 for Soren in chapter 20 seems a little high, but I'm not going to bother arguing that. Instead, let's take a closer look at their stats.

I can understand why you'd say that, but in my experience, all units promote by the end of Day Breaks, so I'd expect two chapters to give him a decent amount of experience. Mostly it was just for a comparison, but meh.

Soren has over Calill: 2.4 Magic, 5.2 Skill, 1.6 Speed, 5.2 Resistance. Everything else is pretty similar, or Strength and Luck, which Calill wins.

The Speed lead is negated by Calill's higher strength, letting her use Elthunder with equal AS than Soren. Also, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, at best.

Minor leads in Skill and Resistance? lolwut? 5.2 is significant. And by that point, Soren has 23.2% chance to activate Adept at any given time. I'm not riding Adept, but if Soren and Calill have the same AS, then Adept is only helping Soren win in that category. 1/5 happens once every five battles, meaning that he's going to double once for every five times Calill doesn't. Again, winning overall.

So Soren has slightly more Magic, or slightly more Speed if he uses a weaker but lighter tome than Calill.

If Soren drops to Thunder, he keeps his Speed lead but loses his Magic advantage. Oh darn. Wait, he has better Skill and Speed and Resistance. That's still a win.

The question is: Do these 'leads' let Soren ORKO anything Calill can't? If they don't, they don't mean anything.

I haven't been arguing that. Don't present an argument that isn't congruent to what I've been arguing. I'm saying that Soren's doing everything safer and more efficiently.

Keep in mind that Calill has required zero resources at this point, while Soren has needed BEXP and CEXP to reach this point.

Boyd has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Largo is superior.

Marcia has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Tanith is superior.

Jill has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Haar is superior.

etc.

Granted, I get what you're saying, but the CEXP is a resource that goes to waste if not utilized, and BEXP is meant to help shorten the babying process as much as possible. Soren needing a few levels of BEXP to become good is worth the 10+ chapters where he's good. Calill having 0 resources isn't necessarily an advantage when using normal resources on a good unit thus far in the game will make that unit better than her. Besides, Soren doesn't call for nearly as much BEXP as someone like TORMOD does (lololol).

Also notice how their durability is eerily similar, so I don't know where this 'less safely and less efficiently' stuff came from.

Also notice how Soren has B Ike and mass amounts of Skill and Adept where Calill doesn't. I'll admit now that A Nephenee is superior to B Ike, but then Soren could use A Stefan by the time Calill gets A Nephenee to get 7.5% more avoid, giving him 25% avoid that A Nephenee doesn't compare to + 15% hit. And sorry if I'm shortchanging Calill here, but I can't imagine using Tormod or Geoffrey if you're using her, lol.

The long and short of it is that Soren's winning here as well.

Soren can use Staves, but Mist, Tormod and even Rhys use them better, and this game is so easy that healing isn't worth very much. It is a minor point in his favor, though.

I wouldn't call using Staves a "minor point" considering that healing and restoring is one utility that Soren will always be able to do when Calill will never be able to. Plus, Knives offer nothing as opposed to a greatly used utility. Sure Mist and Rhys can heal, but that's also like saying "You shouldn't heal with Soren because you have a Bishop and a Valkyrie that can heal". Who cares, you can heal with Soren to raise his weapon rank when Rhys and Mist will be sitting on a fine A/S rank in staves. You can't downplay that shit advantage no matter how hard you try.

BTW lol Tormod uses Staves in the same way, but just with two more movement. Oh golly what a significant win.

Since Speed is basically the most important stat in the game, I think that's actually a pretty serious flaw.

I'd rather have a Sage that isn't always doubling than one that requires mass amounts of babying. And I'll admit that it's a flaw, but it's not nearly as bad as Tormod's flaws, namely lack of decent supports and did I mention requiring mass amounts of babying?

Tormod is a perfectly acceptable unit to use, that I frequently use in my own efficient runs. You fail to grasp that joining underlevelled in this game is not a serious handicap, and Tormod doesn't even join that late (for example, Ilyana has only 7 complete chapters on him).

7 complete chapters of usability and CEXP > No CEXP and needing BEXP immediately.

And it's not about joining late so much as it is joining later than Soren/Ilyana.

This is because of the existence of BEXP. In practice Tormod requires just as much EXP (or less due to a higher base level) as Ilyana and Soren, the handicap is that because he cannot gain it through CEXP, he needs to gain it through BEXP.

So you're saying he needs to play roughly 6-8 levels of catch-up solely through BEXP just to be mediocre? Fuck, if I want to not use Soren/Ilyana, I'll just use Calill.

Ilyana needs to be level 20/11 to match Calill's base speed. That's not "good" to me.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily care about Ilyana all that much, so I could be talking out my ass.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[Radiant Dragon]

You're severely underestimating the significance of more move when it comes to exposure, flexibility, etc.

It takes 24 Heals to reach C-rank. That's a lot more than 'a few chapters', even if you have them heal every single turn. Which obviously won't happen, due to usually not being able to heal on the first turn, or not being in range to heal someone (This is where Mist and Tormod's move leads become significant).

By the time Tormod joins, we should have gotten ~5750 BEXP. Tormod only needs 758 to get to level 14 from base, for example.

He doesn't support Boyd? Must be a base conversation I'm thinking of. Regardless, I wasn't talking about the bonuses; I meant that Titania and Oscar are better units than Soren. There's also Reyson, and he even gives Ike ATK. In addition, how often will Ike and Soren be near each other in chapters when Ike has to be charging/getting ferried toward a seize point?

My point is that Tormod's stats are better than Soren and Ilyana's, not worse like you were suggesting.

Let's say Soren promotes in the Chapter 18 base, making him 20/1 at the beginning of the chapter. He won't see much action in Ch.18 since it's a very move-oriented chapter. I'll cap him off in the Chapter 19 base, making him 20/2. Chapter 19 is extremely short (3 turns), so he's not getting a level here either. He's going into Chapter 20 at level 20/2, and then Calill joins.

Suddenly, Calill only loses 3 Skill and Resistance (both minor), while Calill wins 1 HP and Defense, 5 Luck (these are also minor), and 5 Strength. Magic and Speed are equal. I could compare Ilyana, but her stats are even worse.

Yes, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, since Calill will not have problems hitting enemies or surviving magic attacks. How does Soren do things 'safer and more efficiently'?

The difference between Soren vs. Calill and the other units you mentioned is that Calill will have better stats than Soren when she joins. The premotes you mentioned won't have that luxury.

[dondon151]

It didn't, but what else would more movement help him do? Rush the enemy hypothetically? Sages only need 6 movement since they don't rush and they have no reason to be where Paladins and Fliers are.

False. Strike one. All units rush in an efficient playthrough. The ones that get left behind after turn 2 do nothing but pick off stragglers, shove other units, and perform secondary objectives.

Also, going by your logic, sages do need to be right behind the front lines of paladins and fliers to do anything useful (attack from 2 range). If paladin unit moves 9 spaces and attacks on turn 1 from a fixed position, 6 move sage unit can't reach that enemy, but 8 move sage unit can. It actually doesn't help that mages have the same movement as armors, which means that after 2 turns of following normal infantry units, they already can't keep up.

Mist is better than Rhys because she has Canto, not because she has more movement. Bad comparison is bad.

False again. Strike two. Mist is better than Rhys because she has more movement and canto. Promoted Mist with 6 move and canto would actually be as bad as, if not worse than, Rhys because she loses mag.

Lastly, C staves is not difficult to reach. Heal spam at every turn for the first few chapters after a Sage is promoted and you can slap a Physic in their hand in no time.

False. Strike three. 70 WEXP is 24 Heals and/or Mends. That's 24 turns of not attacking or otherwise not really doing anything productive. You also won't always have a target to heal (particularly on turn 1, sometimes on later turns because the sage won't have enough movement to reach a wounded target or there just aren't any wounded targets), and maps get done pretty fast in this game. 24 turns is, IIRC, around 1/7 of the total turncount required on an efficient playthrough.

I can understand why you'd say that, but in my experience, all units promote by the end of Day Breaks, so I'd expect two chapters to give him a decent amount of experience. Mostly it was just for a comparison, but meh.

Of course, you personally don't mind infusing BEXP into Soren for him to be able to compare to Calill, but you deny BEXP for Tormod. Additionally, you're going off your personal experience, which may as well be, for all I know, 200 turns of turtling around before chapter 17.

And by that point, Soren has 23.2% chance to activate Adept at any given time. I'm not riding Adept, but if Soren and Calill have the same AS, then Adept is only helping Soren win in that category. 1/5 happens once every five battles, meaning that he's going to double once for every five times Calill doesn't. Again, winning overall.

I'm assuming that both Soren and Calill can 2HKO enemies by this point. If that's the case, then Adept is only significant for rounds of combat where neither Calill nor Soren double, or where neither 2HKO, which is quite a bit less than a flat 1 in 5 battles.

I'm saying that Soren's doing everything safer and more efficiently.

False yet again. The baseball analogy falls apart here, but this is strike four. "Efficiently" means that the resources pumped into Soren for him to reach that point were best used on him and not on other units. That is a very dubious claim. I'd believe it if Soren actually had good offense or other favorable traits, but as it stands, I don't think babying a unit that has a non-doubling 8 atk in his joining map is very efficient when you get both a substitute with more movement and a substitute that requires no investment whatsoever. With the assumptions present in this tier list, getting Soren to the point where he's doing about as well as Calill actually invokes a net cost, not a net benefit.

Boyd has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Largo is superior.

Marcia has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Tanith is superior.

Jill has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Haar is superior.

This is where you show your complete lack of understanding of opportunity costs and benefits. The opportunity cost of training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill is less than the benefits earned from training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill. Therefore, training those units is justified. Conversely, the opportunity cost of training Soren is greater than the benefits earned. Therefore, training Soren is not justified.

As for Tormod? Well, in his case, the opportunity cost of training him might actually be less than the benefits earned, or at least, the difference is smaller when compared to Soren's case. This is obviously assuming that Soren is a bad unit, which you seem to disagree with, but it's not hard to show that he is actually a terrible unit:

- He has 8 atk in his joining chapter and is 2HKO'd by everything. The map can also be 2 turned IIRC with Titania. In fact, all earlygame maps can be cleared very quickly with Titania, and with Soren's horrible offense and durability, he's not gaining much in the way of CEXP.

- This has 2 consequences: one is that other units are also getting less CEXP, and the other is that more BEXP is necessary to make up for it. BEXP is actually limited earlygame and is much better spent on Ike, Boyd, and Oscar; Marcia joins rather early and would like a massive BEXP infusion as well. Soren's also not getting much in the way of BEXP at this point in the game.

- The end result is a terribly underleveled Soren, which makes gaining CEXP even more difficult. A negative feedback loop.

- Soren has the same movement as armors. Ew.

- Soren's offense isn't actually even good without significant leveling up to the point where he can actually double enemies consistently.

You can't downplay that shit advantage no matter how hard you try.

Yeah you can. It's called "I cleared FE9 efficiently and I didn't have to heal with Soren once." (True story, by the way.)

I'd rather have a Sage that isn't always doubling than one that requires mass amounts of babying. And I'll admit that it's a flaw, but it's not nearly as bad as Tormod's flaws, namely lack of decent supports and did I mention requiring mass amounts of babying?

A sage that isn't always doubling is an offensive failure. You sunk all of your resources into that to get a dead weight. You should pride yourself on making inefficient choices; perhaps you deserve an award.

I also keep hearing supports being brought up in your post. Why? Supports are all but trivial in efficient play. They are the cherry on top of the frosting on top of the ice cream on top of the cake. Supports usually rarely in play, especially between units that have poor movement and units that need to move or be moved far ahead in the map.

7 complete chapters of usability and CEXP > No CEXP and needing BEXP immediately.

False. What is this, strike five? The usability of units is confined by the availability of unit slots. Ilyana's not really helping you in any significant way if she is the last slot on your deployed team (in fact, she is probably hurting you in most cases by taking the spot of a superior unit). With this logic, you'd think FE10 Ilyana was the second coming of Jesus because she's usable in more maps than anyone else. Just in case you haven't played FE10 yet, Ilyana sucks in that game, so that extra 6 chapters or so over most of the cast aren't helping her at all.

[Florete]

With the assumptions present in this tier list,

I feel like I should point out that this isn't a tier list topic .

[dondon151]

I feel like I should point out that this isn't a tier list topic .

Yeah, but it sure feels like it

[Anouleth]

I'd rather have a Sage that isn't always doubling than one that requires mass amounts of babying. And I'll admit that it's a flaw, but it's not nearly as bad as Tormod's flaws, namely lack of decent supports and did I mention requiring mass amounts of babying?

Well, since Ilyana needs her own babying, in the end, you're just picking the one that ends up inferior. If Ilyana can't kill anything on her own, and is too weak to have any real enemy phase, then she is unlikely to gain a significant number of levels through CEXP and will probably end up needing lots of BEXP herself, possibly just as much as Tormod, only to end up still inferior (remember that a level 16/1 Tormod has comparable stats to a 20/1 Ilyana, only with the advantage of higher movement). And it should be noted that Ilyana getting CEXP is not somehow 'free'. It's still CEXP that could have gone to another unit.

In addition, I think that there's not that much difference between their supports. Ilyana's supports are mainly questionable characters, such as Mia, Brom, and Zihark, all of which have a laundry list of flaws. Mia and Zihark in particular don't share movement. Lucia is terrible. Mordecai is... questionable, but possible, since he is largely smite-botting rather than moving ahead. However, what's more of an issue is that all these people give is defense. Not only is it highly unlikely that Ilyana will ever need it because she has only 6 movement, but all it does is close the defense gap between her and Tormod. Tormod's supports actually seem better. He gets full attack from Reyson, who is a great unit and almost always in play, which improves his attack lead over Ilyana.

7 complete chapters of usability and CEXP > No CEXP and needing BEXP immediately.

And it's not about joining late so much as it is joining later than Soren/Ilyana.

Now, it is a valid argument to suggest that Ilyana's performance over her 7 chapters before Tormod joins is more valuable than his advantages over the rest of the the game, but I don't think it's true. Chapter 9, she plays little role in because you can rush the boss with Titania. Chapter 10, she might be useful, and Chapter 13, because there are lots of enemies that need to be killed fast.

So you're saying he needs to play roughly 6-8 levels of catch-up solely through BEXP just to be mediocre? Fuck, if I want to not use Soren/Ilyana, I'll just use Calill.

When did I say that? I said that the only difference between Tormod and Soren/Ilyana is that while Tormod needs to take BEXP, Soren and Ilyana can supplement their BEXP with some CEXP, which is an advantage in their favour, since generally BEXP is more valuable than CEXP. However, ultimately, they are all taking roughly the same amount of experience away from 'other units'. In addition, if Tormod is mediocre when trained, then Soren and Ilyana, who are not as good, are simply bad units, since they have less movement, and in the case of Ilyana, inferior stats. So breaking it down into their respective pros and cons:

Tormod:

-Better movement

-Better stats

Soren/Ilyana:

-Earlier jointime

-Can supplement EXP gain with CEXP

Now, there's nothing wrong with preferring Soren/Ilyana's advantages to Tormod's advantages, but there's no problem with doing exactly the opposite, either. It might be that you use a lot of BEXP hungry units, such as Rolf, Mia, Marcia, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov, and don't complete Chapter 15 pacifistically, and you don't have enough BEXP to accomodate Tormod as well. It might be that you use a lot of low movement units like Brom, Gatrie, Nephenee, Mia, and Zihark, and you don't think that the extra 2 movement will be useful. But there are also plenty of cases where Tormod's advantages are more relevant than Soren/Ilyana's advantages.

[Kaoz]

Now, it is a valid argument to suggest that Ilyana's performance over her 7 chapters before Tormod joins is more valuable than his advantages over the rest of the the game, but I don't think it's true. Chapter 9, she plays little role in because you can rush the boss with Titania. Chapter 10, she might be useful, and Chapter 13, because there are lots of enemies that need to be killed fast.

I dunno about chapter 10... it's either a 12 turn with minimal combat or a 3-4 turn where she's getting left behind. I would consider adding chapters 12 and 15 to that list though (she can get a Wind for effective damage and has actually decent move in the desert for whatever it's worth).

[aku chi]

Are arguments in this topic germane to the tier list? If so, I'll make more indepth arguments. But there are a few points I couldn't let slide regardless.

False yet again. The baseball analogy falls apart here, but this is strike four. "Efficiently" means that the resources pumped into Soren for him to reach that point were best used on him and not on other units. That is a very dubious claim. I'd believe it if Soren actually had good offense or other favorable traits, but as it stands, I don't think babying a unit that has a non-doubling 8 atk in his joining map is very efficient when you get both a substitute with more movement and a substitute that requires no investment whatsoever. With the assumptions present in this tier list, getting Soren to the point where he's doing about as well as Calill actually invokes a net cost, not a net benefit.

This is where you show your complete lack of understanding of opportunity costs and benefits. The opportunity cost of training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill is less than the benefits earned from training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill. Therefore, training those units is justified. Conversely, the opportunity cost of training Soren is greater than the benefits earned. Therefore, training Soren is not justified.

As for Tormod? Well, in his case, the opportunity cost of training him might actually be less than the benefits earned, or at least, the difference is smaller when compared to Soren's case. This is obviously assuming that Soren is a bad unit, which you seem to disagree with, but it's not hard to show that he is actually a terrible unit:

- He has 8 atk in his joining chapter and is 2HKO'd by everything. The map can also be 2 turned IIRC with Titania. In fact, all earlygame maps can be cleared very quickly with Titania, and with Soren's horrible offense and durability, he's not gaining much in the way of CEXP.

- This has 2 consequences: one is that other units are also getting less CEXP, and the other is that more BEXP is necessary to make up for it. BEXP is actually limited earlygame and is much better spent on Ike, Boyd, and Oscar; Marcia joins rather early and would like a massive BEXP infusion as well. Soren's also not getting much in the way of BEXP at this point in the game.

- The end result is a terribly underleveled Soren, which makes gaining CEXP even more difficult. A negative feedback loop.

- Soren has the same movement as armors. Ew.

- Soren's offense isn't actually even good without significant leveling up to the point where he can actually double enemies consistently.

When discussing resource use (in particular, kill favoritism and Bexp) on Soren, you boo-hoo the idea by showing how bad Soren starts!? I can make the same bullet points for Tormod and even Marcia! It's what the unit gains from the resources that is relevant, not how bad they are before we give them the resources. You're also assuming your conclusion in bullet point 2, saying that Soren is a poor investment because he's a poor investment.

When arguing Tormod > Soren, you have to decide if it's worth it to Bexp dump the Mages.

- If it isn't worth it for either, Soren is obviously more valuable, because we can give him an early seal and use him as a staff-bot that is almost entirely superior to Rhys. Tormod is worthless without a Bexp dump. But if we give him enough for a Master Seal, then we can compare staff-bot Soren (more availability, higher level, and higher staff rank) with staff-bot Tormod (more movement).

- If both are worth a Bexp dump, then let's compare both units with Bexp dumps. Soren has a lot of extra availability and contributions to bring to the team before Tormod joins, but Tormod might be a little better in their shared chapters. If they both are worth Bexp dumps, let's explore this further.

- Now, if you want to claim that Tormod is worth a Bexp dump and Soren isn't, demonstrate why that is. If you can make such a demonstration, now we need to compare units with different resources, which is always tricky. But let's compare the low-resources Soren staff bot, with the Bexp infused Tormod, not forgetting that Tormod is depriving other units of the valuable Bexp, unlike Soren. You cannot handhave away the cost of Bexp in this comparison, because you've already claimed that we don't have enough to give to Soren instead of Tormod: so somebody is getting less Bexp as a result of Tormod's use, and that somebody makes better use of it than Soren.

Edit: I'd like to add that my preference is analyzing at least four {unit, resources} combinations (the ones mentioned in bullet-points 1 and 2), because making assumptions about resource use limits the scope of the discussion. It might be valuable to know how each of Soren and Tormod do with low and high resource use.

So breaking it down into their respective pros and cons:

Tormod:

-Better movement

-Better stats

Soren/Ilyana:

-Earlier jointime

-Can supplement EXP gain with CEXP

Now, there's nothing wrong with preferring Soren/Ilyana's advantages to Tormod's advantages, but there's no problem with doing exactly the opposite, either. It might be that you use a lot of BEXP hungry units, such as Rolf, Mia, Marcia, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov, and don't complete Chapter 15 pacifistically, and you don't have enough BEXP to accomodate Tormod as well. It might be that you use a lot of low movement units like Brom, Gatrie, Nephenee, Mia, and Zihark, and you don't think that the extra 2 movement will be useful. But there are also plenty of cases where Tormod's advantages are more relevant than Soren/Ilyana's advantages.

- Tormod's "better stats" over the other Mages might not hold up with similar resource use. Ilyana, for instance, has 7 Chapters to gain Cexp (and perhaps Sexp) and starts only one level less than Tormod. So with similar Bexp, Soren and Ilyana will have a level lead over Tormod.

- "Earlier jointime" can be split into "contributing to earlier chapters" and "more time to build up weapon levels". The latter is probably only relevant for staff weapon levels. Tormod has pretty much no chance to reach C staves, whereas Soren and Ilyana can each C staves, possibly before Chapter 21 with an early seal.

Edited May 6, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

Are arguments in this topic germane to the tier list? If so, I'll make more indepth arguments.

I really want to see Tormod and Calill > Soren and Ilyana there, but I doubt I'll be in the majority (especially since Cynthia doesn't even think Calill is > the Knights...). Here I'm just trying to prove that Tormod and Calill don't suck as badly as people seem to think.

When discussing resource use (in particular, kill favoritism and Bexp) on Soren, you boo-hoo the idea by showing how bad Soren starts!? I can make the same bullet points for Tormod and even Marcia!

The difference is that Tormod and Marcia join after we have access to BEXP, and we have to deal with Soren's bad start until BEXP becomes available.

When arguing Tormod > Soren, you have to decide if it's worth it to Bexp dump the Mages.

- If it isn't worth it for either, Soren is obviously more valuable, because we can give him an early seal and use him as a staff-bot that is almost entirely superior to Rhys.

How is a 10/1 Soren a better staff bot than Rhys?

- "Earlier jointime" can be split into "contributing to earlier chapters" and "more time to build up weapon levels". The latter is probably only relevant for staff weapon levels. Tormod has pretty much no chance to reach C staves, whereas Soren and Ilyana can each C staves, possibly before Chapter 21 with an early seal.

I honestly don't see the point of early promoting a Sage so they can use Staves when we already have Rhys and Mist. I have never found myself needing a third staff user enough that I couldn't wait until they reached level 20. (I've never found myself needing a third staff user period).

Edited May 6, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

I really want to see Tormod and Calill > Soren and Ilyana there, but I doubt I'll be in the majority (especially since Cynthia doesn't even think Calill is > the Knights...). Here I'm just trying to prove that Tormod and Calill don't suck as badly as people seem to think.

And I would argue against Tormod and Calill > Soren (and probably Ilyana), in more depth if I knew that arguments in this topic would be relevant to tiering in the tier list topic. I don't know how this forum's management works, but can this tiering discussion be moved?

The difference is that Tormod and Marcia join after we have access to BEXP, and we have to deal with Soren's bad start until BEXP becomes available.

I could argue how that's not an issue, but instead I'll say: Ilyana.

How is a 10/1 Soren a better staff bot than Rhys?

An unsealed Rhys? +1 Mov, more durability, more Magic, and half-decent offense. Rhys has a higher staff level which won't be particularly relevant until Chapter 16, after we've gotten our first Physic. But if Soren and Ilyana are sealed in Chapter 11, they can probably reach C Staves sometime in 17-3, so it's a short, small advantage for Rhys. If we early-seal Rhys (as is probably wise), Soren and Ilyana's advanatges are lessened to just slightly better durability and offense.

I honestly don't see the point of early promoting a Sage so they can use Staves when we already have Rhys and Mist. I have never found myself needing a third staff user enough that I couldn't wait until they reached level 20. (I've never found myself needing a third staff user period).

I'm suggesting that you use a sealed Soren or Ilyana as your sole staff user. Healing during Chapters 11-17 is probably more valuable than healing in any of Chapters 18-24, 26-28. Plus, promoting them earlier lets them raise their staff level. Being able to weild Restore in Chapter 21 and Physic in Chapter 25 is pretty important.

[Florete]

And I would argue against Tormod and Calill > Soren (and probably Ilyana), in more depth if I knew that arguments in this topic would be relevant to tiering in the tier list topic. I don't know how this forum's management works, but can this tiering discussion be moved?

It can and should be. I'd suggest the next post on this subject just be made in the tier list topic with a reference to where it came from.

[Bearissoslow]

It takes 24 Heals to reach C-rank. That's a lot more than 'a few chapters', even if you have them heal every single turn. Which obviously won't happen, due to usually not being able to heal on the first turn, or not being in range to heal someone (This is where Mist and Tormod's move leads become significant).

Ahahahahaha, that's funny. You say 24 like it's a huge number. Tormod has to hurdle to this gap as well, but the problem is that his movement won't be helping him get anymore heals that Soren would be. Most of the chapters in which Tormod could be a Sage in (Crimea Marches, Entrusted, Defending Talrega) are chapters where close knit groups are used. CM has narrow hallways that mean anyone can reach a unit, Entrusted has a main path that only Fliers can deviate from, and DT isn't a terribly large screen in the first place, meaning that Soren will never be getting left behind. I'm waiting for the chapter the ends up being 300 steps long and thus Tormod's 2 movement is somehow game-breaking. Oh wait, that's not happening. Whoops.

Besides, compare this to Calill. If Soren's promoting in Day Breaks, which he usually is, he has plenty of time for healing. For instance, let's just say that he's promoting at the end of part two of DB, meaning that he gets the ability to heal all through part 3 and 4, the combat centered chapters. Suddenly, that's 4 screens that Soren has to get 24 heals in. On average, that's 6 heals a screen. By the time Calill's coming in, Soren can easily use Physics. That's anything but unreasonable.

By the time Tormod joins, we should have gotten ~5750 BEXP. Tormod only needs 758 to get to level 14 from base, for example.

Ch. 4: 200

Ch. 9: 300

Ch. 10: 700

Ch. 15: 400

That's including the base BEXP you get from starting the game. I'm not aware of a figure on that, so I won't pretend to factor it in. If I've made a mistake here, let me know and I'll be glad to fix it. BEXP's never been an exact science for me.

Still, on the BEXP totals I found (assuming we're talking about Normal/Hard mode here), Tormod is tapping into nearly half of the 1600 BEXP you can earn by the time you get him just to get to an inferior level. Level 14 is somehow less than the expected level I gave you. I'll spoiler this shit for you so it doesn't rock your world: [spoiler2]Tormod at level 15 was awful. Tormod at level 14 won't be any better.[/spoiler2] I KNOW RIGHT SO CRAZY

The better question to ask is when does he become battle usable? When does he reach the point where he doesn't need to be babied? Are you implying 14 is a good level? Well, I disagree because of his 12 AS translates to him not doubling. His low Skill certainly isn't helping him guarantee attacks, but I'll let it slide. His 2 movement isn't helping him get any kill he can double, and where is the part where he starts performing profoundly better than Soren? If you feed Soren CEXP up to the point when you get Tormod (and I repeat the fact that CEXP is not comparable to BEXP because CEXP is wasted when not utilized), he'll be level 16-18 easily. Why should I be sinking half of my overall BEXP into a unit that isn't performing better at the same level and isn't taking proper advantage of his positives? I've said it once and I'll say it again: Celerity goes to waste on a Sage because Sages heal and use ranged attacks. If this was something like a bonus to a Knight or a Fighter we were speaking of here, that'd be another story entirely, but this is a unit that is meant to be on the lower spectrum supporting and ranged killing. I'm aware he's flexible, but unless the player makes a severe error every few turns, Tormod won't be needing to rush around with his 2 movement. He'll be sitting around trying to steal kills from someone else or healing someone that Soren could've easily reached as well.

He doesn't support Boyd? Must be a base conversation I'm thinking of. Regardless, I wasn't talking about the bonuses; I meant that Titania and Oscar are better units than Soren.

And you're trying to tell me that Ike and Titania should support, even though the bonus is awful and it means that Titania has to chain herself to Ike whenever possible? Why limit the movement of a Paladin just for Ike when Ike's already doing that to Oscar? It's bad enough he does it to him, but now you're suggesting he does it to her for a shitty support bonus? Where's the logic in that?

There's also Reyson, and he even gives Ike ATK.

Because Ike will be needing attack. Did you just completely ignore my point about Reyson's support being stupid or are you just trying to be convenient with what you pick and choose to acknowledge?

In addition, how often will Ike and Soren be near each other in chapters when Ike has to be charging/getting ferried toward a seize point?

I've never had to "ferry" Ike to a seize point, so I honestly don't know what you're talking about. But, I'll entertain this idea for a few moments.

If Ike is getting ferried to a seize point via rescuing, that means that he's either currently rescued or currently about to fight a boss. If he's rescued, support bonuses don't mean shit. If he's about to fight a boss, when has Ike ever had issues fighting a boss? Pre-DB Ike will mob the fuck out of any boss with the Regal Sword, Post-DB Ike will mob the fuck out of any boss with the Regal Sword and Aether. Soren not being there to give a support isn't a negative for Soren at all since if Soren's not keeping up, neither is Reyson. If anything, it's just realistic that a non-mounted can't keep up when a unit is rescued by a mounted. Tormod wouldn't be able to either even though he has that GLORIOUS TWO MOVEMENT OMG.

My point is that Tormod's stats are better than Soren and Ilyana's, not worse like you were suggesting.

What? What? What?

What are your comparisons and how are you able to make that claim? Maybe you could make it for Ilyana since her Speed leaves much to be desired, but Soren? Give me a good and realistic comparison for that and I swear to god I'll suck yo dick I'll show you why you're wrong. I've already shown that Tormod at 15/- with SD is still inferior to Soren at 17/- with no boosts.

Let's say Soren promotes in the Chapter 18 base, making him 20/1 at the beginning of the chapter.

He didn't promote in Day Breaks? I find that extremely hard to believe, but fuck it, I'll work with that.

He won't see much action in Ch.18 since it's a very move-oriented chapter.

"move-oriented"

EVERY CHAPTER IS MOVE-ORIENTED YOU FUCKING MORON

I'm sorry that was my Tourette's fucking acting up again.

Anyway, lol. Crimea Marches starts out with four units that will approach your units when they try to go through the hallway. You'll get a turn of being blockaded until you manage to kill them, and then you'll be running again. Guess what Soren's doing while everyone else is attacking the enemies? Healing them and getting closer to the way he needs to go. And here's a funny question, how and why is Tormod keeping up with the Paladins/Fliers? You can say TWO MOVEMENT OMG, but that doesn't account for the fact that:

a. The Paladins/Fliers start out closer to the goal than any unit by default (assuming we're trying to be optimal with deployment)

b. The Paladins/Fliers have Canto, meaning that Tormod constantly has to not heal and not attack just so he doesn't get left behind. If he's going to make full use of 8 movement, he can't stop to do anything unless it's right by his last movement. That's not optimal, that's just silly.

c. He can't tank so he has no place amongst the Paladins/Fliers.

d. His enemy turn is awful and he can take one to two hits at most before he needs to use his amazing movement to retreat.

The fact of the matter is that you keeping shilling out the fact that Soren can't keep up with the highest moving units in the game as a bad thing, but it doesn't matter. The Paladins/Fliers are tanking and going ahead of everyone. Boyd can't keep up, so I guess that means he's getting no CEXP, right? Soren doesn't need to keep up with them and I can't see why you'd ever imply that he'd need to anyway.

I'll cap him off in the Chapter 19 base, making him 20/2. Chapter 19 is extremely short (3 turns), so he's not getting a level here either. He's going into Chapter 20 at level 20/2, and then Calill joins.

Am I fucking crazy or did you just say that Entrusted is three turns? Explain this shit if you want me to accept it, since I see no way to power through the chapter in such a quick manner.

Suddenly, Calill only loses 3 Skill and Resistance (both minor), while Calill wins 1 HP and Defense, 5 Luck (these are also minor), and 5 Strength. Magic and Speed are equal. I could compare Ilyana, but her stats are even worse.

Suddenly you made an unrealistic comparison for Soren. I fail to see how Soren isn't getting higher than 20/2 based on anything you said. Maybe if you shortchange him in every regard, like funneling all of his potential heals to Mist and never letting him get a kill, then yes, Soren suxxx, but if you actually use every unit equally, you'll notice that Soren significantly out-performs Tormod and Calill when she joins. I've already explained why, so I'm not gonna bother to explain why again. You keep spouting Soren off as undeserving of anything, but you've yet to say why when most tier lists in which Soren is ranked higher than Calill are based on equal opportunity to CEXP and BEXP. You're going out of your way to fuck him over, and I want some good reasoning for why I should let you get away with that as an argument.

Yes, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, since Calill will not have problems hitting enemies or surviving magic attacks. How does Soren do things 'safer and more efficiently'?

zzz how many times have I said that Soren has B Ike and C Stefan walking into Ch. 20 and Adept? Actually, you've entirely ignored the Adept advantage in itself, which I find to be funny. Please, don't call Soren vs. Calill equal when I already said that them having equal AS = Soren winning because of Adept. Calill looks great when you ignore my arguments!

The difference between Soren vs. Calill and the other units you mentioned is that Calill will have better stats than Soren when she joins. The premotes you mentioned won't have that luxury.

And for you to even make this argument, you have to somehow explain to me why I should believe Soren's only going to be 20/2 after at least two chapters of usage.

[Radiant Dragon]

It can and should be. I'd suggest the next post on this subject just be made in the tier list topic with a reference to where it came from.

Agreed.

@Bearissoslow: Use this page for the BEXP we get each chapter.

[dondon151]

When discussing resource use (in particular, kill favoritism and Bexp) on Soren, you boo-hoo the idea by showing how bad Soren starts!? I can make the same bullet points for Tormod and even Marcia! It's what the unit gains from the resources that is relevant, not how bad they are before we give them the resources. You're also assuming your conclusion in bullet point 2, saying that Soren is a poor investment because he's a poor investment.

I think I made my point clear as day, but you somehow managed to not comprehend it. Soren's cost is a product of him having bad bases, having little opportunities to gain CEXP, and having a lot of competition for BEXP at a point in the game where he most needs it. The negative feedback loop of bad units getting worse over time is not something that's uncommon in Fire Emblem; it's rarer in FE9 due to the existence of BEXP, that's for sure, but BEXP isn't a magic solution to all of the world's problems at any point in the game. You can't even apply BEXP before the chapter 8 base, and when you do, you want to dump almost all of it on Boyd, Oscar, Ike, and then Marcia, who joins in chapter 9. This isn't even counting the units that are fairly mediocre but are still superior to Soren, which is pretty much everyone except for healers and Ilyana.

So if you have a dead weight that can't really be made significantly better until, say, chapter 11, then you might as well forego him and wait for Tormod 5 chapters or so later, who will at least have Celerity. Did I mention that Soren has armor knight movement?

[aku chi]

I think I made my point clear as day, but you somehow managed to not comprehend it. Marcia's cost is a product of her having bad bases, having little opportunities to gain CEXP, and having a lot of competition for BEXP at a point in the game where she most needs it.

[Kaoz]

The difference is that Marcia will actually be good after she got the BEXP.