Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

[aku chi]

The difference is that Marcia will actually be good after she got the BEXP.

Maybe dondon should talk about that, instead of Soren's bad start?

Maybe I'm not as effective at communicating as I thought. Let me be as direct as possible: Soren's poor start is irrelevant as to whether or not he's worth a Bexp dump. What is relevant is how much he benefits from the Bexp and how costly/valuable the Bexp is.

[Anouleth]

I dunno about chapter 10... it's either a 12 turn with minimal combat or a 3-4 turn where she's getting left behind. I would consider adding chapters 12 and 15 to that list though (she can get a Wind for effective damage and has actually decent move in the desert for whatever it's worth).

Wow, effective damage against Ravens? Shame that a level 11 Ilyana will still only deal about 6 damage out of ~30HP and gets 1-rounded back. You'd be better off with Rolf.

- Tormod's "better stats" over the other Mages might not hold up with similar resource use. Ilyana, for instance, has 7 Chapters to gain Cexp (and perhaps Sexp) and starts only one level less than Tormod. So with similar Bexp, Soren and Ilyana will have a level lead over Tormod.

Jesus christ, do I need to write it bigger for you idiots?

Tormod takes the SAME AMOUNT of EXP as Soren and Ilyana. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that Tormod is taking it through BEXP instead of CEXP. CEXP is NOT FREE, especially when you are as incapable of killing anything on your own as Ilyana or Soren, since they do not double or even 2HKO initially and have horrible durability. You are not going to get them more than five levels without BEXP and a funnel.

By the way, I would like to see someone seriously try to train Soren without BEXP and while pulling good turncounts. I think it would be funny, and I would be surprised if he could even reach level 7 by the time Tormod joins.

- "Earlier jointime" can be split into "contributing to earlier chapters" and "more time to build up weapon levels". The latter is probably only relevant for staff weapon levels. Tormod has pretty much no chance to reach C staves, whereas Soren and Ilyana can each C staves, possibly before Chapter 21 with an early seal.

This isn't GBA FE. High staff rank is practically worthless, the number of times you will care to use Restore are very rare and there are practically never any situations where you need to deal with multiple status staves (and generally they have crappy hit anyway. For example, even Kieran can reach about 17RES with a Pure Water and the Knight Ward, which reduces Sleep Bishops to about 25 display hit rate.) If all you want is extra staffbots, you would be better off with Mist + Rhys.

Maybe dondon should talk about that, instead of Soren's bad start?

Maybe I'm not as effective at communicating as I thought. Let me be as direct as possible: Soren's poor start is irrelevant as to whether or not he's worth a Bexp dump. What is relevant is how much he benefits from the Bexp and how costly/valuable the Bexp is.

Uh, he DID talk about that.

This is where you show your complete lack of understanding of opportunity costs and benefits. The opportunity cost of training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill is less than the benefits earned from training Boyd, Marcia, and Jill. Therefore, training those units is justified. Conversely, the opportunity cost of training Soren is greater than the benefits earned. Therefore, training Soren is not justified.

Am I fucking crazy or did you just say that Entrusted is three turns? Explain this shit if you want me to accept it, since I see no way to power through the chapter in such a quick manner.

The only requirement to complete Entrusted is to kill Homasa. He's not hard to reach, and not hard to 1-round either (for example, base level Tanith with a forged Steel Lance can kill him in 1-round of combat and has the movement to reach him with help from Reyson). Now, a lot of people don't like to do this since you forgo the Knight Ring and some BEXP, since the earliest you can have a Hawk talk to Naesala is Turn 2, and since Naesala moves after Homasa, killing Homasa would prevent Naesala from talking to Reyson. But even in that case, you can still kill Homasa on Turn 3. You don't really lose that much for killing Homasa early, since most of the enemies are unpromoted and the Ravens don't give particularly good BEXP, and there's no point in prolonging the chapter solely so some scrub sages can sit around and staff spam.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Black★Star

[dondon151]

Let me be as direct as possible: Soren's poor start is irrelevant as to whether or not he's worth a Bexp dump. What is relevant is how much he benefits from the Bexp and how costly/valuable the Bexp is.

Yes, you are correct, and I covered this point adequately. Please pay more attention.

Soren's benefit from BEXP and the value of the BEXP are directly related to Soren's poor start. If Soren had a better start and could reach Boyd-level offense with, say, just 200 BEXP, then it would be worth it. But right now his start is crappy, and he may require something like 800 BEXP to reach Boyd-level offense. Which, given the low availability of BEXP at that point in the game, will necessarily prevent a unit like Boyd or Marcia from reaching their offensive benchmarks.

Or think of it this way - which is better:

- Marcia and Boyd who ORKO everything and Soren who sucks

- Soren who ORKOs everything and Marcia and Boyd who suck

Obviously, the former is superior. Heck, even if it were just "Marcia ORKOing everything" vs. "Soren ORKOing everything," Marcia is still the superior option because she's just a better unit.

You seem to possess the notion that favoritism is unfair. You're right; it is unfair, but favoritism for units with good traits is justified with the results. Get with the times.

[aku chi]

Tormod takes the SAME AMOUNT of EXP as Soren and Ilyana. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that Tormod is taking it through BEXP instead of CEXP. CEXP is NOT FREE, especially when you are as incapable of killing anything on your own as Ilyana or Soren, since they do not double or even 2HKO initially and have horrible durability. You are not going to get them more than five levels without BEXP and a funnel.

There are several instances where Cexp is free, and others where Soren and Ilyana can actually contribute, but I'll save the analysis for the tier list topic. But Sexp is free, and Soren and Ilyana can early seal to get it before Tormod.

By the way, I would like to see someone seriously try to train Soren without BEXP and while pulling good turncounts. I think it would be funny, and I would be surprised if he could even reach level 7 by the time Tormod joins.

Ignoring the exaggeration, why is this relevant? Tormod without Bexp is at least as hopeless, so let's compare relevant scenarios.

This isn't GBA FE. High staff rank is practically worthless, the number of times you will care to use Restore are very rare and there are practically never any situations where you need to deal with multiple status staves (and generally they have crappy hit anyway. For example, even Kieran can reach about 17RES with a Pure Water and the Knight Ward, which reduces Sleep Bishops to about 25 display hit rate.) If all you want is extra staffbots, you would be better off with Mist + Rhys.

Restore is pretty crucial in Chapter 21: it has 3 Sleep Bishops. Physic is pretty crucial in Chapter 25, especially if you send units up to the top early.

Soren and Ilyana are better staffbots than Rhys, if you early-seal them, and they're much better staff-bots than unpromoted Mist. Promoting Mist in a reasonable timeframe takes more resources than early-seal Soren and Ilyana.

Uh, he DID talk about that.

Well, he assumed his conclusion: that Soren is a poor Bexp candidate. Demonstrating that as a conclusion would involve analyzing Soren's performance with and without Bexp, which I haven't seen.

Soren's benefit from BEXP and the value of the BEXP are directly related to Soren's poor start. If Soren had a better start and could reach Boyd-level offense with, say, just 200 BEXP, then it would be worth it. But right now his start is crappy, and he may require something like 800 BEXP to reach Boyd-level offense. Which, given the low availability of BEXP at that point in the game, will necessarily prevent a unit like Boyd or Marcia from reaching their offensive benchmarks.

If I ignore that you're assuming your conclusion again, I'd like to ask the relevant question: what makes Tormod's situation any different, if different they are? Tormod has even more competition for Bexp, considering that Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all joined recently. If neither makes positive use of the Bexp, how is Tormod better than Soren with no Bexp?

Or think of it this way - which is better:

- Marcia and Boyd who ORKO everything and Soren who sucks

- Soren who ORKOs everything and Marcia and Boyd who suck

- Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren and Ilyana to start ORKOing.

- Assuming we're using Marcia and Boyd makes assumptions.

You seem to possess the notion that favoritism is unfair. You're right; it is unfair, but favoritism for units with good traits is justified with the results. Get with the times.

I don't know where you got this from.

[dondon151]

If I ignore that you're assuming your conclusion again, I'd like to ask the relevant question: what makes Tormod's situation any different, if different they are?

I am not assuming my conclusion. The nature of a negative feedback loop is circular; if Soren starts out bad, then he is going to get worse without significant input, and if the significant input results in a negative overall impact, then the input is not justified.

Tormod has even more competition for Bexp, considering that Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all joined recently. If neither makes positive use of the Bexp, how is Tormod better than Soren with no Bexp?

Now you are assuming your conclusion: that Tormod doesn't make good use of BEXP. I can't accurately qualify Tormod's utility given that I have not played this game very much (I will leave that to others), but consider that at this point in the game, you may very well have BEXP left over after reaching your BEXP targets, there's much less opportunity cost giving Tormod the BEXP now than there was giving Soren the BEXP much earlier.

If you wanted to compare the results of the BEXP, all I have to say is that Tormod doesn't have armor knight movement.

- Assuming we're using Marcia and Boyd makes assumptions.

Why not? They're top and high tier units, and they exist in a part of the game where unit choices are very limited. Who are you going to use instead of Boyd? God forbid, Ilyana? Soren? Is Oscar going to spontaneously sprout wings and make up for the fact that Marcia is likely the unit, next to Titania, responsible for the greatest marginal increase in efficiency in the game?

I don't know where you got this from.

I think the quote below takes the cake:

- Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren and Ilyana to start ORKOing.

You're contending that because Marcia is justified x amount of favoritism, then Soren or Ilyana are also justified an equal amount of favoritism. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Marcia is a flying, 8-9 move ORKOing unit. Soren and Ilyana are grounded, 5-6 move ORKOing units. Marcia also has considerably higher physical durability than either mage. The disparity here is astounding.

[aku chi]

I am not assuming my conclusion. The nature of a negative feedback loop is circular; if Soren starts out bad, then he is going to get worse without significant input, and if the significant input results in a negative overall impact, then the input is not justified.

Unless I've been misunderstanding you, you've been assuming the 'if clause' here, that giving Soren Bexp results in a negative net impact. That was your argument, no?

Now you are assuming your conclusion: that Tormod doesn't make good use of BEXP. I can't accurately qualify Tormod's utility given that I have not played this game very much (I will leave that to others), but consider that at this point in the game, you may very well have BEXP left over after reaching your BEXP targets, there's much less opportunity cost giving Tormod the BEXP now than there was giving Soren the BEXP much earlier.

I'm not assuming it at all. I presented three scenarios to you, which you ignored. I suggested that we analyze all three (preferably in the tier list topic).

Why not? They're top and high tier units, and they exist in a part of the game where unit choices are very limited. Who are you going to use instead of Boyd? God forbid, Ilyana? Soren? Is Oscar going to spontaneously sprout wings and make up for the fact that Marcia is likely the unit, next to Titania, responsible for the greatest marginal increase in efficiency in the game?

Making assumptions about unit deployment and resource use limits the scope of the discussion. I prefer not to do that. Your preferences may differ.

You're contending that because Marcia is justified x amount of favoritism, then Soren or Ilyana are also justified an equal amount of favoritism. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Marcia is a flying, 8-9 move ORKOing unit. Soren and Ilyana are grounded, 5-6 move ORKOing units. Marcia also has considerably higher physical durability than either mage. The disparity here is astounding.

No. I made a factual statement: that Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren or Ilyana to start ORKOing. Any conclusions you draw from that observation are your own.

[Radiant Dragon]

I made a factual statement: that Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren or Ilyana to start ORKOing. Any conclusions you draw from that observation are your own.

Then what point are you trying to make with this statement? Also note that "Marcia is a flying, 8-9 move ORKOing unit. Soren and Ilyana are grounded, 5-6 move ORKOing units. Marcia also has considerably higher physical durability than either mage." is also a factual statement.

[aku chi]

Then what point are you trying to make with this statement? Also note that "Marcia is a flying, 8-9 move ORKOing unit. Soren and Ilyana are grounded, 5-6 move ORKOing units. Marcia also has considerably higher physical durability than either mage." is also a factual statement.

Or think of it this way - which is better:

- Marcia and Boyd who ORKO everything and Soren who sucks

- Soren who ORKOs everything and Marcia and Boyd who suck

- Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren and Ilyana to start ORKOing.

I thought it was obvious. If we have enough Bexp to make Marcia and Boyd ORKO everything, we have enough Bexp to make Soren and Boyd ORKO everything. It was a simple factual clarification, I am amazed how it could be misunderstood to imply that I believe that Soren should be given as much Bexp as Marcia.

[Anouleth]

There are several instances where Cexp is free, and others where Soren and Ilyana can actually contribute, but I'll save the analysis for the tier list topic. But Sexp is free, and Soren and Ilyana can early seal to get it before Tormod.

Sure they can chip at the odd enemy and gain some pathetic amount of CEXP, so in that sense, the CEXP is free, it's just unlikely to ever get them ahead of Tormod. But if you early Seal Soren and Ilyana around the time you get your first seal, then by the time Tormod joins, they will be unlikely to have gained many levels. Certainly, I don't think it's the case that Soren and Ilyana will have a significant statistical lead if you're early sealing them. As I mentioned before, even with a 4 level deficit, Tormod is still comparable to Ilyana statistically and superior in terms of movement.

Ignoring the exaggeration, why is this relevant? Tormod without Bexp is at least as hopeless, so let's compare relevant scenarios.

Because when you crib and moan about Tormod 'needing' BEXP, the implication is that Soren and Ilyana do not need BEXP, when in fact, they do, especially if you want to early seal them, or if you want them to make a meaningful contribution in the chapters before Tormod joins.

Restore is pretty crucial in Chapter 21: it has 3 Sleep Bishops. Physic is pretty crucial in Chapter 25, especially if you send units up to the top early.

And some of those Sleep Bishops are quite easy to kill before they can even use their staves. As before, it's unlikely you'll have to deal with more than one sleep staff at once.

Soren and Ilyana will not have the staff range in Chapter 25. The distance from the top to the bottom is about 10 squares, requiring about 20 magic to overcome. Given how slow staff EXP is in that game, neither of them will have the appropriate range. A level 10/10 Soren, for instance, is about 2 or 3 points off, 10/10 Ilyana is about 5 points off. Rhys, however, can do it fine at that level, with room to spare. If you're not dropping people at the top in Chapter 25, then Physic is not so necessary - not for Tormod, anyway, since he is much better at keeping up with your other units.

Soren and Ilyana are better staffbots than Rhys, if you early-seal them, and they're much better staff-bots than unpromoted Mist. Promoting Mist in a reasonable timeframe takes more resources than early-seal Soren and Ilyana.

Really? Ilyana is level 6 at the beginning of chapter 8. If you want her to be level 10 in time to use Danomill's Master Seal, she would need to level up pretty quickly given that she is a poor fighter. Certainly, Mist will in time need some BEXP of her own, but there's not a significant amount of difference between the BEXP that she takes and the BEXP that Ilyana takes, especially when you consider that BEXP in Chapter 11 is a good deal more valuable than BEXP in Chapter 16. Certainly, the additional movement that Mist has is far more valuable than saving a few points of BEXP.

Soren and Ilyana are not better staffbots than Rhys either. He can use some high-level staves that are out of their reach - I'm not even sure it's possible for Sages to have B Staves. That excludes them from using Rescue, which has some use in later chapters.

Well, he assumed his conclusion: that Soren is a poor Bexp candidate. Demonstrating that as a conclusion would involve analyzing Soren's performance with and without Bexp, which I haven't seen.

You make an analysis of Soren's performance sound necessary. dondon hasn't analysed Soren's performance, yet he's hit the nail right on the head - Soren is largely not worth an early BEXP dump. Analysis? All you need to know is that Soren has 5->6 move and unsalvagable durability.

If I ignore that you're assuming your conclusion again, I'd like to ask the relevant question: what makes Tormod's situation any different, if different they are? Tormod has even more competition for Bexp, considering that Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all joined recently. If neither makes positive use of the Bexp, how is Tormod better than Soren with no Bexp?

Do these things need to be spelt out for you? The 'benefit' of training Soren is less than the 'cost' of training Soren. But that does not mean that the 'benefit' of training Tormod is less than the 'cost' of training Tormod. Certainly, Tormod is giving you more benefit, and more cost, but that doesn't mean he's not worth it.

I thought it was obvious. If we have enough Bexp to make Marcia and Boyd ORKO everything, we have enough Bexp to make Soren and Boyd ORKO everything. It was a simple factual clarification, I am amazed how it could be misunderstood to imply that I believe that Soren should be given as much Bexp as Marcia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gricean_maxims#Maxim_of_Relation

[Radiant Dragon]

I thought it was obvious. If we have enough Bexp to make Marcia and Boyd ORKO everything, we have enough Bexp to make Soren and Boyd ORKO everything. It was a simple factual clarification, I am amazed how it could be misunderstood to imply that I believe that Soren should be given as much Bexp as Marcia.

I misread Dondon's comparison, and thought it was Marcia + Boyd vs. Soren + Boyd, not Marcia + Boyd vs. Soren. I tend to misread things quite often (as you may have noticed), so I apologize.

The Mages do need more BEXP to ORKO though, due to their lower speed (Ilyana probably needs a Speedwings as well). But there should be enough for Soren + Boyd, even if there's less left over for other units afterward.

@Anouleth: Sages cap at B staves, I believe.

[dondon151]

Unless I've been misunderstanding you, you've been assuming the 'if clause' here, that giving Soren Bexp results in a negative net impact. That was your argument, no?

Correction: I've been justifying that assumption with factual statements; namely, that Soren has poor physical durability and terrible movement.

I'm not assuming it at all. I presented three scenarios to you, which you ignored. I suggested that we analyze all three (preferably in the tier list topic).

Your assumption is no different from the assumption that you accused me of making, except for the fact that you didn't justify it to the same extent that I did.

Making assumptions about unit deployment and resource use limits the scope of the discussion. I prefer not to do that. Your preferences may differ.

Denying those assumptions is about as stupid as refusing to assume that a unit is deployed on a map because he is forced.

No. I made a factual statement: that Marcia takes at least as many resources as Soren or Ilyana to start ORKOing. Any conclusions you draw from that observation are your own.

So what? You weren't countering my argument? Why did you even post, then? I, too, can make factual statements completely irrelevant to the point of discussion: the limit as x approaches 0 of the function f(x) = sin(x)/x is 1.

[aku chi]

Because when you crib and moan about Tormod 'needing' BEXP, the implication is that Soren and Ilyana do not need BEXP, when in fact, they do, especially if you want to early seal them, or if you want them to make a meaningful contribution in the chapters before Tormod joins.

I've done no such thing. The way I see it, Soren and Ilyana can be used in two ways. The first is to get them the level ten, feed them a Master Seal, and let them primarily be a staffbot like Rhys. This requires minimal resources (the Master Seals are not in high demand and they don't need much Bexp or kill favoritism to reach level 10 before Chapter 11). The second involves feeding them about as much Bexp as you would feed Tormod, only a little less, and a little sooner, and use them primarily as attackers/siegers, with some staff utility on the side. Tormod also has both of these options, but staffbot Tormod is very underwhelming compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana/Rhys, entirely due to availability.

And some of those Sleep Bishops are quite easy to kill before they can even use their staves. As before, it's unlikely you'll have to deal with more than one sleep staff at once.

Okay... so you need a Restore staff user. Rhys or Mist qualify, but so do Soren and Ilyana. Tormod does not. Let me repeat myself: when discussing staffbot Soren/Ilyana, the intent is to use them as your sole staff user.

Soren and Ilyana will not have the staff range in Chapter 25. The distance from the top to the bottom is about 10 squares, requiring about 20 magic to overcome. Given how slow staff EXP is in that game, neither of them will have the appropriate range. A level 10/10 Soren, for instance, is about 2 or 3 points off, 10/10 Ilyana is about 5 points off. Rhys, however, can do it fine at that level, with room to spare. If you're not dropping people at the top in Chapter 25, then Physic is not so necessary - not for Tormod, anyway, since he is much better at keeping up with your other units.

In this response, Soren/Ilyana gain only 9 levels in 17 chapters of staff use, Spirit Dusts don't exist, Sages can't climb the mountain trail to get closer to the top, and Anouleth never wants to heal units on the other side of the mountain (who will get injured, due to set-damage rocks).

Really? Ilyana is level 6 at the beginning of chapter 8. If you want her to be level 10 in time to use Danomill's Master Seal, she would need to level up pretty quickly given that she is a poor fighter. Certainly, Mist will in time need some BEXP of her own, but there's not a significant amount of difference between the BEXP that she takes and the BEXP that Ilyana takes, especially when you consider that BEXP in Chapter 11 is a good deal more valuable than BEXP in Chapter 16. Certainly, the additional movement that Mist has is far more valuable than saving a few points of BEXP.

So, a difference of 5 levels worth of Bexp (445 to be exact) is not significant? Interesting.

Soren and Ilyana are not better staffbots than Rhys either. He can use some high-level staves that are out of their reach - I'm not even sure it's possible for Sages to have B Staves. That excludes them from using Rescue, which has some use in later chapters.

- Soren/Ilyana can reach B Staves. They miss out on Fortify and the Ashera Staff, so that's a minor endgame con.

- I've already mentioned that Rhys has a small window of time where Physics are available, he can use them, and staffbot Soren/Ilyana cannot. That counts for something, but not much.

- But Soren/Ilyana have better durability and offense than Rhys (and more advantages if you don't seal Rhys for some reason).

You make an analysis of Soren's performance sound necessary. dondon hasn't analysed Soren's performance, yet he's hit the nail right on the head - Soren is largely not worth an early BEXP dump. Analysis? All you need to know is that Soren has 5->6 move and unsalvagable durability.

Do these things need to be spelt out for you? The 'benefit' of training Soren is less than the 'cost' of training Soren. But that does not mean that the 'benefit' of training Tormod is less than the 'cost' of training Tormod. Certainly, Tormod is giving you more benefit, and more cost, but that doesn't mean he's not worth it.

<sarcasm>You're right, we shouldn't analyze the costs and benefits of Bexp for the Mages, all we need to do is trust in the divine, self-evident knowledge that Tormod is worth the Bexp and Soren and Ilyana aren't.</sarcasm>

Correction: I've been justifying that assumption with factual statements; namely, that Soren has poor physical durability and terrible movement.

I can't say that I'm impressed with that 1-phrase argument; I was expecting something more. Eh, I'll do it myself in the tier list topic this evening.

Your assumption is no different from the assumption that you accused me of making, except for the fact that you didn't justify it to the same extent that I did.

I haven't made a single assumption. I would like to analyze the costs and benefits of Bexping all three Mages.

Denying those assumptions is about as stupid as refusing to assume that a unit is deployed on a map because he is forced.

If this were truely an optimal deployment tier list, we wouldn't be considering training Soren, Ilyana, or Tormod. We are, so it is not. BTW, such a "tier list" would be pretty uninfomative: more than half of the cast aren't worth deploying in PoR assuming optimal deployment.

So what? You weren't countering my argument? Why did you even post, then? I, too, can make factual statements completely irrelevant to the point of discussion: the limit as x approaches 0 of the function f(x) = sin(x)/x is 1.

You made either a factual mistake or a disingenuous comparison. I pointed that out (apparently in a non-obvious manner). See my revious reply here.

[Radiant Dragon]

Is your argument for Soren/Ilyana > Tormod really 'they can promote at level 10 earlier so they can use Physics/Restore before he can'? Because if it is...

[Anouleth]

I've done no such thing. The way I see it, Soren and Ilyana can be used in two ways. The first is to get them the level ten, feed them a Master Seal, and let them primarily be a staffbot like Rhys. This requires minimal resources (the Master Seals are not in high demand and they don't need much Bexp or kill favoritism to reach level 10 before Chapter 11).

Yes, that is true.

The second involves feeding them about as much Bexp as you would feed Tormod, only a little less, and a little sooner, and use them primarily as attackers/siegers, with some staff utility on the side.

That also is a possibility.

Tormod also has both of these options, but staffbot Tormod is very underwhelming compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana/Rhys, entirely due to availability.

Um, how? Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are almost entirely reliant on Physics to heal the ubiquitous 9 move units in this game, and Physics are difficult to get because this game has such a fast pace. If anything, I would suggest that Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are the underwhelming ones because of their horrible movement.

Okay... so you need a Restore staff user. Rhys or Mist qualify, but so do Soren and Ilyana. Tormod does not. Let me repeat myself: when discussing staffbot Soren/Ilyana, the intent is to use them as your sole staff user.

In that case, I do not have any interest in discussing your idea of what making Soren/Ilyana/Tormod into staffbots is, because it is stupid to expect that they will use them and only them as staff users.

In addition, I do not consider it a serious flaw on the part of Tormod that he cannot use a Restore staff, any more than I consider a serious flaw on the part of Tanith or Reyson.

In this response, Soren/Ilyana gain only 9 levels in 17 chapters of staff use, Spirit Dusts don't exist, Sages can't climb the mountain trail to get closer to the top, and Anouleth never wants to heal units on the other side of the mountain (who will get injured, due to set-damage rocks).

Actually, I was being a little bit generous with EXP there. I don't really think it's reasonable to gain 9 levels in 17 chapters of staff use.

Spirit Dusts are generally reserved for non-staff bots in my playthroughs.

Sages can climb the mountain trail to the top. But if you want to heal someone that you dropped at the top on turn 2, you will probably not be in range to do so. And generally, if you are on the right hand side of the mountain, staying alive isn't very difficult.

So, a difference of 5 levels worth of Bexp (445 to be exact) is not significant? Interesting.

Using the Ward staff, it is definitely possible for Mist to be around level 7 at the beginning of Chapter 16, which is the first chapter where you will really care about promoted Mist (since she can help rescue-drop). That's about 300 BEXP to Ilyana's 200BEXP, but Mist is taking the BEXP later, when it is less valuable.

- Soren/Ilyana can reach B Staves. They miss out on Fortify and the Ashera Staff, so that's a minor endgame con.

- I've already mentioned that Rhys has a small window of time where Physics are available, he can use them, and staffbot Soren/Ilyana cannot. That counts for something, but not much.

- But Soren/Ilyana have better durability and offense than Rhys (and more advantages if you don't seal Rhys for some reason).

No they don't. 10/1 Ilyana has 16ATK with Thunder. 10/1 Rhys has 18ATK with Light, and a higher magic growth. I suppose Rhys is at risk of getting doubled, but otherwise his durability is on par with Ilyana. Soren is much the same.

<sarcasm>You're right, we shouldn't analyze the costs and benefits of Bexp for the Mages, all we need to do is trust in the divine, self-evident knowledge that Tormod is worth the Bexp and Soren and Ilyana aren't.</sarcasm>

Since we are giving roughly the same amount of BEXP, except that Tormod has better movement and Soren/Ilyana have better staff rank, I should say that it's perfectly evident that staffbot Tormod > staffbot Soren/Ilyana. And if we are giving roughly the same amount of BEXP, except that Tormod has better movement and Soren/Ilyana can make combat contributions in Chapters 10, 11, 13, 14, then again, it should be evident that Tormod is better as a combat Sage.

And this is borne out elsewhere on the tier list. There are plenty of situations elsewhere on the tier list where better movement is prized over better availability, such as Makalov being above Nephenee, or Kieran being above Boyd, or Geoffrey being above Brom. Tormod being relegated to Mid Tier is just a case where such logic hasn't been applied yet.

[aku chi]

Um, how? Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are almost entirely reliant on Physics to heal the ubiquitous 9 move units in this game, and Physics are difficult to get because this game has such a fast pace. If anything, I would suggest that Soren/Ilyana/Rhys are the underwhelming ones because of their horrible movement.

- The big benefit, as I said, is availability. Healing in chapters 11-15 > not existing.

- Another benefit is the higher staff level. Crucially, staffbot Tormod can't weild Restore in Chapter 21, probably can't weild Physic in Chapter 25, and probably can't weild Rescue at all.

- Yet another benefit is a higher level. If Ilyana gets sealed at level 10 before Chapter 11, she has 5 chapters in which to gain Sexp, so she'll probably be around 10/4 when Tormod gets sealed. This higher level slightly improves staff range, durability, and offense.

- Staffbot Tormod's only advantage is movement, which is almost completely negated by the other Mages and Rhys using Physic. (I guess he also has C Fire by default, but it isn't unrealistic for Soren to have C Wind and Ilyana C Thunder in time for siege tomes.)

In that case, I do not have any interest in discussing your idea of what making Soren/Ilyana/Tormod into staffbots is, because it is stupid to expect that they will use them and only them as staff users.

Why? From Chapter 11 and beyond, sealed Soren and Ilyana are at least as good as Rhys. Mist can be better, but she needs more resources to get there.

Actually, I was being a little bit generous with EXP there. I don't really think it's reasonable to gain 9 levels in 17 chapters of staff use.

You mad. If you blaze through Chapters 11-24, you still have 80 turns. With some modest Physic/Restore/Ward use, gaining 9 levels in that time is trivial, even if there is no staff target some of the turns. Not to mention, your staff bots can engage in combat on occasion if there is no need for their staves.

Sages can climb the mountain trail to the top. But if you want to heal someone that you dropped at the top on turn 2, you will probably not be in range to do so. And generally, if you are on the right hand side of the mountain, staying alive isn't very difficult.

Your Sages can advance 12 spaces on their own in 2 turns; it can definitely be done.

Using the Ward staff, it is definitely possible for Mist to be around level 7 at the beginning of Chapter 16, which is the first chapter where you will really care about promoted Mist (since she can help rescue-drop). That's about 300 BEXP to Ilyana's 200BEXP, but Mist is taking the BEXP later, when it is less valuable.

Then you're stuck with an inferior healer in Chapters 11-15. Un-promoted Mist has 1 less mov, paper durability, no offense, and insufficient Magic to heal serious injuries. Also, Mist needs C Staves to use Ward, which is unlikely before Chapter 16. Torch is a possibility, however.

No they don't. 10/1 Ilyana has 16ATK with Thunder. 10/1 Rhys has 18ATK with Light, and a higher magic growth. I suppose Rhys is at risk of getting doubled, but otherwise his durability is on par with Ilyana. Soren is much the same.

Hmm, Rhys does get a pretty snazy Magic promotion bonus. But Soren/Ilyana can hit weaknesses and double more often (especially Soren). Soren also has Adept to get more ORKOs. Forges are also a more realistic (cheaper) choice for the Sages. Soren, in particular, soundly beats Rhys in offense with a Thunder forge. I can actually agree with staffbot Rhys > staffbot Ilyana.

Since we are giving roughly the same amount of BEXP, except that Tormod has better movement and Soren/Ilyana have better staff rank, I should say that it's perfectly evident that staffbot Tormod > staffbot Soren/Ilyana. And if we are giving roughly the same amount of BEXP, except that Tormod has better movement and Soren/Ilyana can make combat contributions in Chapters 10, 11, 13, 14, then again, it should be evident that Tormod is better as a combat Sage.

And this is borne out elsewhere on the tier list. There are plenty of situations elsewhere on the tier list where better movement is prized over better availability, such as Makalov being above Nephenee, or Kieran being above Boyd, or Geoffrey being above Brom. Tormod being relegated to Mid Tier is just a case where such logic hasn't been applied yet.

I've outlined the advantages of staffbot Soren/Ilyana over staffbot Tormod above. As for the second, more complicated comparison, I would like to post my thoughts later this evening in the tier list topic (I'm hoping all of these posts get moved). (Edit: Or... this morning.)

Edited May 7, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

- The big benefit, as I said, is availability. Healing in chapters 11-15 > not existing.

Is it? Chapter 15 may be beaten pacificistically, which removes any need to heal, Chapter 12 requires almost no healing because the Ravens are rather weak and only come about 1 at a time.

- Another benefit is the higher staff level. Crucially, staffbot Tormod can't weild Restore in Chapter 21, probably can't weild Physic in Chapter 25, and probably can't weild Rescue at all.

Given that I've already shown that Physic in Chapter 25 is pretty useless without the magic to reach far with it, I don't think that's a significant issue. Rescue is much better off on Elincia and Mist than Soren/Ilyana anyway.

- Yet another benefit is a higher level. If Ilyana gets sealed at level 10 before Chapter 11, she has 5 chapters in which to gain Sexp, so she'll probably be around 10/4 when Tormod gets sealed. This higher level slightly improves staff range, durability, and offense.

As I have already shown, even with a level deficit, Tormod still has comparable stats to Ilyana, but better movement.

- Staffbot Tormod's only advantage is movement, which is almost completely negated by the other Mages and Rhys using Physic. (I guess he also has C Fire by default, but it isn't unrealistic for Soren to have C Wind and Ilyana C Thunder in time for siege tomes.)

Except that you can't always use Physic because there's only one in the entire game that doesn't waste time to get and they need to work up to C Rank staves.

Why? From Chapter 11 and beyond, sealed Soren and Ilyana are at least as good as Rhys. Mist can be better, but she needs more resources to get there.

Sealed Soren and Ilyana are not as good as Rhys. Mist needs basically just as much BEXP as Ilyana or Soren, if you're willing to wait the unbearable four or five chapters for her to gain some EXP.

You mad. If you blaze through Chapters 11-24, you still have 80 turns. With some modest Physic/Restore/Ward use, gaining 9 levels in that time is trivial, even if there is no staff target some of the turns. Not to mention, your staff bots can engage in combat on occasion if there is no need for their staves.

It would be just peachy if right away in Chapter 11, you could start spamming Physic and Restore and Ward left and right, but sadly, there is only one viable physic in midgame. The Restore staff is usable only very rarely.

I can say that personally, I promoted Mist in Chapter 16, and even in Chapter 26, she was still only a paltry 10/5. Which just goes to show how worthless being a healer is in this game, I guess, even if you do have 8 move and canto.

Your Sages can advance 12 spaces on their own in 2 turns; it can definitely be done.

Yet they can't walk straight up walls. They need to go all the way around the left and right. This means that they are actually even further away from the top of the map on turns 2 and 3.

Then you're stuck with an inferior healer in Chapters 11-15. Un-promoted Mist has 1 less mov, paper durability, no offense, and insufficient Magic to heal serious injuries. Also, Mist needs C Staves to use Ward, which is unlikely before Chapter 16. Torch is a possibility, however.

Tragic. How will I deal with those scaaaaary Ravens without Ilyana's magnificent 4HKOing ability, and how will Mist get around those huge ships, and how will healing a paltry 25HP a turn be enough?

Nor do I understand how Mist is going to have staff rank issues. In fact, that was one of the few areas I found that Mist didn't have problems with.

]

Hmm, Rhys does get a pretty snazy Magic promotion bonus. But Soren/Ilyana can hit weaknesses and double more often (especially Soren). Soren also has Adept to get more ORKOs. Forges are also a more realistic (cheaper) choice for the Sages. Soren, in particular, soundly beats Rhys in offense with a Thunder forge. I can actually agree with staffbot Rhys > staffbot Ilyana.

I'm sorry if I'm underwhelmed by Soren's ~15% chance to occasionally ORKO an enemy, or ability to take an expensive forge, or get a small attack boost against an enemy type that probably makes up about 1 in every 20 enemies, when we are probably never going to be using him seriously in combat anyway. If I was feeling charitable, I would say that all that might add up to one kill over the course of the entire game that we could get with Soren, but not Rhys.

[Bearissoslow]

I've said it somewhere, so I'll say it here: it just comes down to preference. The time I used Tormod he was abysmal and had no redeeming factors besides oh fucking cocks 2 movement. He always was in the way and I was missing some of dat branded love. As for Calill, never bothered with her since I'd go insane without using a Mage for that long.

At a certain point, you all can't convince each other to change which type of aspect you value most in a unit, so I think this shit's been going on too long. People can like their cake and eat it too, let it be with FE units.

And no, I'm not going to respond to the essays in this thread because most of us haven't come in here with an open mind, just the mentality of proving that we're right. It's honestly a waste of time.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[Anouleth]

I've said it somewhere, so I'll say it here: it just comes down to preference. The time I used Tormod he was abysmal and had no redeeming factors besides oh fucking cocks 2 movement. He always was in the way and I was missing some of dat branded love. As for Calill, never bothered with her since I'd go insane without using a Mage for that long.

That's fair enough. If Tormod always ends up very bad in your game, then you shouldn't feel like you 'have' to use him. However, you should realise that just because you had a bad experience with a character does not give you licence to characterise him as 'awful' and 'should never be used'. People will obviously try to correct you when you make statements like that.

[Bearissoslow]

It was on Fixed Growths.

[Anouleth]

It was on Fixed Growths.

Then he's not abysmal. Statistically, he's on par with Soren and slightly ahead of Ilyana at similar levels. It depends on what you think is a superior advantage, Tormod's movement and arguably better stats, or Soren/Ilyana's availability. Certainly, to talk about him like he's trash is just incorrect.

[dondon151]

And no, I'm not going to respond to the essays in this thread because most of us haven't come in here with an open mind, just the mentality of proving that we're right. It's honestly a waste of time.

Including you, you know that? Incidentally, whether or not we have an open mind doesn't change what's factually correct about the game. If you're going to cop out, you may as well do it graciously instead of treating it like it's out fault. You were the one who came in here denying facts, not us.

[StinDuh]

I would have enjoyed a Soren-Zihark support. Soren would be all pessimistic like always, while Zihark would try and be sympathetic because Zihark felt sorry for Soren. I think it'd be interesting.

[Bearissoslow]

Including you, you know that? Incidentally, whether or not we have an open mind doesn't change what's factually correct about the game. If you're going to cop out, you may as well do it graciously instead of treating it like it's out fault. You were the one who came in here denying facts, not us.

Call it copping out if you want, I call it not starting a pissing contest amongst people like you. And try not to feel so targeted or defensive, I'm not blaming any of you.

Calm your dick down, all you've done is be an aggressive douche to me.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[I.M. Gei]

Ever stop to think about why...? =/

[Colonel M]

I would've liked to see more interaction with Volke / Ike (see more of the Greil hiring backstory) or Mist / Ike (they're siblings and they don't support each other wtf). Maybe Shinon / Ike only because I'd like to see how he was so against Ike leading the GMs.

Also dondon needs to clam his dick downdown lol. Let's have more pot calling kettle black conversation shall we? I'd say "no".