FE5 Balance Patch

[Shin]

Didn't dondon prove that Safy and Tina at BASE STATS are still useful at the endgame of FE5?

A link to this proof would be nice. Although I plan on introducing a fixed range on the infinite range staves, which may make them a little less useful.

[Desro]

Didn't dondon prove that Safy and Tina at BASE STATS are still useful at the endgame of FE5?

Sure, any staff user will still be useful, even with low stats, but that doesn't make them one of the best characters in the game. Specifically Tina, who joins with only an E in staffs, and her skill, which is fairly important to a healer, will be outdone by every other staff user. Nanna can get up to A staffs easier, who comes sooner with slightly more staff experience than Tina. Nanna has charisma and more mobility.

Salem, Sara, and Linoan can get to an A in staffs almost as easily as Saphy (actually Sara only needs to promote to reach it). They add decent offense to the mix, and Salem has high HP for a healer, making him fatigue much less. Saphy does have availably on her side, but I still don't see anything that makes her better than the others. She just needs to be fielded if you want to make use of the Repair staff.

Sleuf joins with an A in staffs if that is all that is desired.

I don't see how Tina and Saphy are among the best 2 characters in the game already? All I can think of to justify the statement is Saphy's availability, and their special staves which are low use, and will eventually break, and the actually use of the staves doesn't really benefit Saphy or Tina, it is only justifies their fielding in a late chapter. So what am I missing?

[Rodykitty]

Sure, any staff user will still be useful, even with low stats, but that doesn't make them one of the best characters in the game.

Nanna can get up to A staffs

Oh my gosh...

[Colonel M]

If we're considering boosting Tina and Saphy, I suggest that we give Othin +25% growths in all areas (including Movement), 3 extra movement stars, and Pugi infinite uses.

Seriously, you have to be fucking kidding me when you say:

In the long term, they are among the worst 2 healers in the game. They could definitely use a boost.

I haven't even played FE5 and I know this is complete bullshit. Saphy has access to exclusive Hammerne and Tina has Thief, Unlock, and 5 Movement Stars. The only two units to even BRAG 5 MSs is Sara and Galzus, and notice they join midgamish or lategame in Galzus's case.

I can't attest to the rest, but Tina suddenly lacking the capabilities of Warp doesn't mean she falls off the face of the Earth.

EDIT: Changed from 30% to 25% to make it a little more balanced. Credits to Rody for pointing that out.

Edited May 15, 2011 by _M_

[Shin]

I haven't even played FE5 and I know this is complete bullshit.

It's a fun game, try it some time :P. I'm still toying with ideas, although I may give your one for Othin a miss.

Personally I feel both are units with unique utility. Black Star, you do have a fair argument. Do you feel I should go the other way with them? Like I've said previously, it's possible to introduce a range on staves; I do need to research it a little. * weapons have all received a downgrade, Calibur losing a fair amount of accuracy and crit. I'm also looking into new weapons - A few unused ones can be overwritten.

[grandjackal]

I have thoughts here.

-20 caps are perfectly a-ok. Rody and dondon say it best as to why caps alone do not make the unit.

-Get rid of Warp...Please. Warp is just so dumbshit. If you must, replace all the Warp with Rescue staffs. At least Rescue takes some amount of brainpower.

-The only part I hate about the crit system is that you can only diminish crit with Luck/2 while Skill=crit, so at best you can only negate half the potential crit, which only opens up bullshit factor. Luck=Crit Evade, and I'll be a happy camper.

Those are basically whole-game balance issues. As far as characters go, I'm actually rather fond of this cast. Only a few I think need some shifting about.

-Ronin needs something, for the love of god. However, as Rody says, would be unfun to just totally change the way he plays and just boost his Strength in some shape or form (especially since all that would do is eliminate the point of Tanya). Give him Duel, perhaps higher Skill as well.

-Give Tanya more Str, make her the brute to Ronin's skillfulness.

-Give Selphina's troop weapon ranks that don't suck. Alva and Kein having sword ranks would help, since it would mean they aren't complete ass indoors to seperate them from other mounted units.

-That fire mage gal needs some sort of existing durability to put magic wrath to good use. Hell, maybe Celerity s well.

-Can we just give Armors normal move (since they already have mobility issues outside of that in the form of mounts being near incapable of carrying them), but to further boost them as Armors and Generals, give them wider support range, both giving and receiving. Generals should be a center attention of morale, their presence should be more notifiable, as to make sense as to why that change should be. Giving Generals natural charisma might be going too far though.

I wanna say Hicks needs something, since he's just a worse version of...That other axe knight with sword rank and Wrath. I'd say give Hicks better base stats?

[Fia]

Anyone who can use staff is already a high-tier in this game.

Anyone who can reach A (or come with A) in staff is considered as potential best-tier in usefulness, thanks to Warp/Rewarp/Rescue.

[Shin]

Ronan's original STR growth was abysmal, Tanya's still generally better. Her Luck goes well with Prayer. Hicks has some sword XP planned. Generally, his stats are better than Brighton's. Especially his Luck. A poll has been added for the stat caps, let's settle this one!

[General Spoon]

Nanna can get up to A staffs easier, who comes sooner with slightly more staff experience than Tina. Nanna has charisma and more mobility.

Oh yeah, well I can get Ronan to A bows. Beat that.

[Fia]

Ronan's original STR growth was abysmal, Tanya's still generally better. Her Luck goes well with Prayer. Hicks has some sword XP planned. Generally, his stats are better than Brighton's. Especially his Luck. A poll has been added for the stat caps, let's settle this one!

Make him a mage. Easiest choice, lol.

[Icon of Sin]

I haven't even played FE5 and I know this is complete bullshit. Saphy has access to exclusive Hammerne and Tina has Thief, Unlock, and 5 Movement Stars. The only two units to even BRAG 5 MSs is Sara and Galzus, and notice they join midgamish or lategame in Galzus's case.

Parn has that too. He's also a very good utility unit considering he can steal and fights really well thanks to his equally good PCC. And then there's Sun Sword.

-Get rid of Warp...Please. Warp is just so dumbshit. If you must, replace all the Warp with Rescue staffs. At least Rescue takes some amount of brainpower.

While I wouldn't suggest to kill Warp entirely, I'd make all warping staves (Warp/Rewarp/Rescue) 1 use only. This would especially make those Rewarping Dark Mages less fun to capture/steal from considering they'd have a broken staff rather than 4 uses out of a very good staff.

-The only part I hate about the crit system is that you can only diminish crit with Luck/2 while Skill=crit, so at best you can only negate half the potential crit, which only opens up bullshit factor. Luck=Crit Evade, and I'll be a happy camper.

You get up to 12 Iron Runes that on top of that give growths. Crits are fairly rare if you know how to use them. Besides, most enemies have 0-1 PCC if they even double you.

-Ronin needs something, for the love of god. However, as Rody says, would be unfun to just totally change the way he plays and just boost his Strength in some shape or form (especially since all that would do is eliminate the point of Tanya). Give him Duel, perhaps higher Skill as well.

Ronan was meant to be a movement oriented Sniper who could have more hits in. Duel seems to fit the bill perfectly. I mean Selphina doesn't have much strength herself and Duel is what make her offensively able until the Brave Bow pops up. I probably would raise his Speed, though.

-Give Selphina's troop weapon ranks that don't suck. Alva and Kein having sword ranks would help, since it would mean they aren't complete ass indoors to seperate them from other mounted units.

I can see them changing classes a bit. Maybe Alva a Social Knight and Kein an Axe Knight. They should also get a skill. Roberto seems perfect with Elite.

-That fire mage gal needs some sort of existing durability to put magic wrath to good use. Hell, maybe Celerity s well.

I just remembered something from TearRing Saga, which is the Sunflame tome, complete with a +10 Defense bonus. Maybe make Volcanon like that and make it personal to Miranda.

-Can we just give Armors normal move (since they already have mobility issues outside of that in the form of mounts being near incapable of carrying them), but to further boost them as Armors and Generals, give them wider support range, both giving and receiving. Generals should be a center attention of morale, their presence should be more notifiable, as to make sense as to why that change should be. Giving Generals natural charisma might be going too far though.

Considering Generals are uncommon on both sides, I don't think it would be that bad to give them Charisma as class skill. It would also help Dalsin if the General's weapon ranks were better than E across the board.

[dondon151]

Nanna can get up to A staffs easier, who comes sooner with slightly more staff experience than Tina.

This is completely untrue. Nanna doesn't get staff rank on promotion, but more importantly, she doesn't have 2 personal staves that give 10 WEXP each. Given that Tina only hits with her staves about 2 in 3 times, and given that she'll basically have around 14 total uses of Unlock and Thief combined throughout the entire game, she can probably get around 200 WEXP from her personal staves alone, which, with the +50 WEXP from promotion, puts her solidly at A. And if she falls short, there's always staves like M Up and Physic that can give a boost to her staff WEXP.

The problem with Nanna is that she only gets 1 WEXP per staff use until she reaches D, and then she can only get 2 WEXP per staff use... Even then, there is only 1 Torch staff in the game that is only usable in FoW maps, and I don't recall Mend being very easy to obtain. Then, she has to Physic and M Up spam her way from C to B, despite those staves being in high demand by units like Linoan and Salem, who can get from C to B and then to A on promotion. At B rank, there are no spammable staves, so Nanna has to trudge her way through another staff rank.

Tina reached A staves at around chapter 24 in my SSS 0% playthrough, while I don't think Nanna even reached D staves. Tina got there naturally with Thief and Unlock usage with some Mend thrown in, while Nanna wasn't useful enough to field in most maps and thus didn't get the opportunity to raise her staff WEXP in the first place.

I don't see how Tina and Saphy are among the best 2 characters in the game already? All I can think of to justify the statement is Saphy's availability, and their special staves which are low use, and will eventually break, and the actually use of the staves doesn't really benefit Saphy or Tina, it is only justifies their fielding in a late chapter. So what am I missing?

So actually using Pugi doesn't benefit Othin, because he only needs to be fielded to use it. Therefore, he is relatively worthless, right?

All A rank staff users and Tina are important on an SSS playthrough; most of them don't even see very much combat.

[Desro]

I forgot to consider that Tina got 10 Weapon EXP from using the personal staffs, so that helps her a bit. It still isn't great with her bad skill stat and joining time. It's not a good situation to have her miss with heal, and that will never completely fix itself.

What I'm saying about the personal staves is that it doesn't actually improve Saphy or Tina themselves, it helps you team as a whole but not them specifically (while Pugi does improve Othin). So it does mean using them for their personals, but once their staffs are gone, I don't know why they would be used over Sara, Linoan, or even Salem (except if they were fatiuged and an additional high rank staff user was needed).

[dondon151]

I forgot to consider that Tina got 10 Weapon EXP from using the personal staffs, so that helps her a bit. It still isn't great with her bad skill stat and joining time. It's not a good situation to have her miss with heal, and that will never completely fix itself.

So... don't rely on only her to heal your units. Simple as that. There's also a Skill Ring in chapter 15 that no one else wants.

What I'm saying about the personal staves is that it doesn't actually improve Saphy or Tina themselves, it helps you team as a whole but not them specifically (while Pugi does improve Othin).

I have no idea what sort of perverse logic you are using. You use Repair, and you get 3 brand new uses of Warp. You use Thief, and you get 3 brand new uses of Warp. You use Unlock, and you get a Knight Proof or something. These are tasks that only Tina or Saphy can do; therefore, it helps them directly. It's like saying that Nanna doesn't get credit for Charisma because you only need to deploy her for it and it doesn't benefit her directly. That's a stupid argument.

So it does mean using them for their personals, but once their staffs are gone, I don't know why they would be used over Sara, Linoan, or even Salem (except if they were fatiuged and an additional high rank staff user was needed).

You're completely ignoring the benefit obtained from their personal staves when you make this statement. Furthermore, Linoan and Salem are an entire staff rank away from A and require a chapter's worth of training on spare M Up and Physic uses to reach that staff level. Lategame maps sometimes also require deployment of all of your staff users for completion of the chapter objective:

- Tina, Saphy, Salem, and Sleuf to 2 turn chapter 16A while recruiting Sleuf and Eyrios and stealing a Sleep Sword

- Tina, Saphy, Salem, Linoan, and Sleuf to 2 turn chapter 17A while obtaining 2 Warp staves, a Rescue staff, and recruiting Misha and Sara

- Multiple staff users to rescue sufficient units in chapter 19 in 2 turns - at least Sleuf and another unit to recruit and rescue him and Amalda

- Tina, Saphy, Salem, Linoan, Sleuf, and Sara in chapter 21x to save 16 prisoners and steal 5 Warp staves in 5 turns

- 3 Warp users and Lara or 4 Warp users in chapter 22 to obtain a Warp staff, a Rescue staff, and seize in 1 turn

- At least 3 Warp or Rewarp users in chapter 24 to obtain the Kia staff reliably and seize in 6 turns

- Tina, Saphy, Salem, Linoan, Sleuf, Sara, and Sety in chapter 24x to recruit Eyvel and escape in 3 turns

I'm not entirely sure what is the basis of your argument when you clearly haven't attempted to SSS rank this game before. You don't know how powerful staves are in this game unless you've abused them yourself.

Edited May 16, 2011 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Parn has that too. He's also a very good utility unit considering he can steal and fights really well thanks to his equally good PCC. And then there's Sun Sword.

Shit, forgot Pahn. Sorry about that. :(

I think Dalshien needs bigger help than just Charisma and better weapon ranks though. His high Build is kind of nasty when he's being Rescued and he's still quite the mediocre combatant (2 base Spd with 25% growth? Not to mention no Movement Stars nor PCC). Xavier might have a little more feasibility I guess. bblade might be happy that Xavier could use Master Lance!?!

Edited May 16, 2011 by _M_

[Icon of Sin]

Shit, forgot Pahn. Sorry about that. :(

I think Dalshien needs bigger help than just Charisma and better weapon ranks though. His high Build is kind of nasty when he's being Rescued and he's still quite the mediocre combatant (2 base Spd with 25% growth? Not to mention no Movement Stars nor PCC). Xavier might have a little more feasibility I guess. bblade might be happy that Xavier could use Master Lance!?!

No worries man. You didn't play the game anyway.

The biggest problem about Dalsin is really that he is an Armorknight and that Hammers are seen VERY often, not to mention Rapiers and Mages who don't do him any favors. His speed can be slightly fixed since he comes right before the Sety Scroll, which gives him 30% speed growth bonus on a level up if he has it. It also blocks criticals from happening to him, which is great because his luck is abysmal. If you need another solution for him, maybe raising his movement growth to something higher (5-10% or so)? It's either that or a promotion to something else than General, like Great Knight or Mercenary.

Xavier's combat skills, especially Wrath, are what makes him decent. Considering he can use all axes except the Pugi, I don't think it's so bad that he has E lances. Glade would be happy to use those Master Lances outdoors I guess.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Dio

[Anouleth]

No worries man. You didn't play the game anyway.

The biggest problem about Dalsin is really that he is an Armorknight and that Hammers are seen VERY often, not to mention Rapiers and Mages who don't do him any favors. His speed can be slightly fixed since he comes right before the Sety Scroll, which gives him 30% speed growth bonus on a level up if he has it. It also blocks criticals from happening to him, which is great because his luck is abysmal. If you need another solution for him, maybe raising his movement growth to something higher (5-10% or so)? It's either that or a promotion to something else than General, like Great Knight or Mercenary.

I don't think that high movement growth is really a way to fix everyone, since even after gaining a lot of levels, it's still not something that can be relied upon (and it can also make characters really ridiculous if they get lucky). Plus, it's just inappropriate to have a high move armour, I think. Rather, you should endeavour to make his combat so good that you don't mind his low movement. So enough speed to double, enough luck/res/def he doesn't need to patch himself up with scrolls, enough strength to hit hard, or useful skills, or good weapon ranks.

[Rodykitty]

Again.

Just increase the # of supports Dalshien gets.

That's his gameplay in Vanilla FE5, to use Leaf Support to help his accuracy and boost his crit rate.

To solve Dalshien's problems other ways would just give you Marty. I would just improve Dalshien's utility in the manster and not worry about how he does past that.

[Shin]

It looks like it'll be a narrow victory for 30. I haven't had too much time to do much. (Un)fortunately, the ward I work on has gone under quarantine so I'm off work for the next 48 hours :P. With Dashin, I'm looking towards turning him into a brick wall. He is an armour after all. The problem is that there aren't too many feasible support options for him.

I guess he could keep Leaf, but otherwise there's not much. Both him and Hicks were in Manster's army, that could count, right?