Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Darros]

It shouldn't be assumed that Gilliam gains strength in Chapter 1. His growth is only 30%.

[Salad Utensil]

Well, I got Lute to level 10 halfway through chapter 11 on Eph. Route. Neimi and Artur can probably reach that level a little bit earlier, but I don't know how Gilliam would do. 4 move instead of 5 is a big difference.

I got Gilliam to level 6 with his forced maps and chapter 4. After that I dropped him because the chapter 5 fighters would double him since he didn't gain speed and my strategy required Colm and Lute. Though I'd imagine he could have reached level 7 if I didn't prioritize kills to other people/if he gained speed and if I had continued to use him in later chapters I'd say it isn't impossible to have him reach level 10 by chapter 9 even (just in time for Eirika's route map).

Edited June 29, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

Chapter 1 he's good, chapter 4 he's good if he got SPD in chapter 1 (which I feel should be assumed. I think that the team should be fluid, not set.)

Sure, why not. Let's assume Vanessa gets STR/SPD/DEF for her first three levels as well, or that Neimi gets good level ups, or whatever. If you're willing to rig Gilliam's first level, why not every level.

and then can get some EXP in chapter 5 and 6. He can probably get some EXP in chapter 8, too, even though he's only really contributing in chapters 1 and 4. That's just over a level per chapter on average to be in line for a chapter 9 promotion, and I think he could get a lot of experience in the top left corner of chapter 4.

Even so, there's the not inconsiderable cost of a Knight's Crest. We could easily promote one of the Cavs at the same point.

[Darros]

Allright, I just started a no Seth HM playthrough and just started Chapter 4.

I'm here to state my opinions on the "Hot Topics" of the moment.

Gilliam: This guy was weird. In Chapter 1 he was helpful indeed, but as soon as we hit axeland he got doubled and cuoldn't hit. Chapter 3 he sucked in too because he couldn't reach anything.

Garcia: Better than this list says. In Chapter 2 if Vanessa rescues him and Ross talks to him (can be done on turn 3), he helps a ton with the bandits. He was also helpful in Chapter 3 by doing a lot of damage, because he could actually reach.

Neimi: The only things she did was talk to Colm and damage a wall. Ross did better than her in Chapter 3 because of her needing to talk to Colm. She also doesn't even have great hit rates. She had 83 on a bandit compared to Ross' 81.

In Chapter 4 I'm deploying everyone except Seth and Neimi. Gilliam has a use in Chapter 4 as well.

EDIT

Chapter 4: Gilliam and Garcia managed to be useful here. Gilliam stayed behind to deal with the reinforcement Revenants. He toko all four of them with plent HP to spare. Garcia went with my main group. Lute and Artur are preforming similarly. Good damage output, but gets killed by nearly everything.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Spykitty

[Rewjeo]

*sigh*

I'm not saying that we're assuming Gilliam gets SPD on his first level up. I'm saying that it should be assumed that the player will only use him if he DOES get speed on his first level up. But why? Wouldn't not doing this for other units be a double standard? Doesn't this make the list pointless as it is now assumed that units are all awesome all the time?

No.

This is a level up that you don't have to go out of your way to get. It's gonna happen anyways, and if it goes well, that's great. That doesn't happen with any other units (except Eirika, who WILL be used, and Franz, who will be used virtually 100% of the time) so it's not a double standard. What other unit is going to get a level up for sure that relies on it to be a decent unit? I certainly can't think of anything. It's generally assumed that if a unit is really screwed, the player will drop them, and that if a unit the player wasn't going to use gets really blessed, they'll probably end up getting used.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Anouleth]

*sigh*

I'm not saying that we're assuming Gilliam gets SPD on his first level up. I'm saying that it should be assumed that the player will only use him if he DOES get speed on his first level up. But why? Wouldn't not doing this for other units be a double standard? Doesn't this make the list pointless as it is now assumed that units are all awesome all the time?

No.

This is a level up that you don't have to go out of your way to get. It's gonna happen anyways, and if it goes well, that's great. That doesn't happen with any other units (except Eirika, who WILL be used, and Franz, who will be used virtually 100% of the time) so it's not a double standard. What other unit is going to get a level up for sure that relies on it to be a decent unit? I certainly can't think of anything. It's generally assumed that if a unit is really screwed, the player will drop them, and that if a unit the player wasn't going to use gets really blessed, they'll probably end up getting used.

Do you not think that if 70% of the time, Gilliam is unusably bad, that is a negative quality that the tier list should reflect? Do you think that it is irrelevant that two out of every three playthroughs, Gilliam will fail to scrape together enough levels to dig himself out of his hole and promote?

In addition, is it really the case that we don't have to go out of our way for him to gain those levels? I don't remember Chapter 1 exactly, but surely Franz (a good unit) could take those kills instead?

[Rewjeo]

30% of the time, Gilliam gets the SPD level up. He'll be used less than 30% of playthroughs. Why not be smart and choose those times you use him from the times he's good?

I don't think Franz cares all that much, and, IIRC, he isn't so durable that he can enter all the combat he wants. He won't mind Gill taking some hits instead.

[Darros]

30% of the time, Gilliam gets the SPD level up. He'll be used less than 30% of playthroughs. Why not be smart and choose those times you use him from the times he's good?

I highly doubt one point of speed changes Gilliams entire game. He still can't hit or even get in range, for that matter.

[Salad Utensil]

Do you not think that if 70% of the time, Gilliam is unusably bad, that is a negative quality that the tier list should reflect? Do you think that it is irrelevant that two out of every three playthroughs, Gilliam will fail to scrape together enough levels to dig himself out of his hole and promote?

In addition, is it really the case that we don't have to go out of our way for him to gain those levels? I don't remember Chapter 1 exactly, but surely Franz (a good unit) could take those kills instead?

Yeah, it is really difficult to get Gilliam kills, but I'd say it's easier than say feeding Neimi or Ross those kills (in other words I think Gilliam should move above those two to low tier since we want to figure out a proper location for him). Even without Seth, these chapters are only being completed 1 or 2 turns more so even Franz has trouble getting kills since he can't double anything until his descent speed growth starts to kick in and is spending a lot of his time ferrying Eirika/Garcia/Joshua.

In chapter 1, it's really hard to funnel kills into a Franz since his offense and durability is worst and there are so few enemies while the AI has a tendency to target Gilliam for fighters and Eirika for soldiers. If you want to feed Franz extra kills it'll definitely cost an additional turn at least and have to be during player phase unless Franz is the only PC in range.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[RNG Princess]

Eirika is a shinning star in a no Seth PT, she's the best until Franz gets solid.

So is Gilliam > Neimi/Ross or Neimi/Ross > Gilliam?

[Anouleth]

30% of the time, Gilliam gets the SPD level up. He'll be used less than 30% of playthroughs. Why not be smart and choose those times you use him from the times he's good?

But that doesn't matter. Gilliam is only good "sometimes". This is a negative quality. I don't think it's irrelevant to consider the case where the RNG God does not smile upon Gilliam, in which case he's trash, pure and simple.

Yeah, it is really difficult to get Gilliam kills, but I'd say it's easier than say feeding Neimi or Ross those kills (in other words I think Gilliam should move above those two to low tier since we want to figure out a proper location for him). Even without Seth, these chapters are only being completed 1 or 2 turns more so even Franz has trouble getting kills since he can't double anything until his descent speed growth starts to kick in and is spending a lot of his time ferrying Eirika/Garcia/Joshua.

I can't comment on how difficult it is to get him those kills since I've never used him, but I know that it's possible to do it with Neimi (since I did it with Lute). I don't know about Ross either since Ross has only 4 move.

I don't understand how Franz has trouble getting kills. I had Franz at level 15 at the end of Chapter 8. It is so easy to get him to kill stuff, it's hilarious.

Plus, why is he ferrying Joshua or Garcia or Eirika in earlygame?

In chapter 1, it's really hard to funnel kills into a Franz since his offense and durability is worst and there are so few enemies while the AI has a tendency to target Gilliam for fighters and Eirika for soldiers. If you want to feed Franz extra kills it'll definitely cost an additional turn at least and have to be during player phase unless Franz is the only PC in range.

All the Soldiers are on the north side of the map. Franz does not have the worst offense: he probably has the best, because he ORKOes Soldiers and 2HKOes Fighters (with perfect hit). I don't know where you people get it from that Franz is somehow a bad unit in this chapter. Franz can move south immediately and kill the Soldier. One kill. The second soldier suicides into him. Two kills. The third fighter hits him and he kills it back on player phase. Three kills. That's three kills already on turn 3, and Franz has 0% chance of death. It is so easy. Certainly, it is a lot easier than doing it with Gilliam (since he can't double the Soldiers and has lower hit on the Fighters).

Edited June 30, 2011 by Anouleth

[Rewjeo]

But that doesn't matter. Gilliam is only good "sometimes". This is a negative quality. I don't think it's irrelevant to consider the case where the RNG God does not smile upon Gilliam, in which case he's trash, pure and simple.

He's bad because he's bad? Basically, that's what I'm hearing. You use a unit in the best possible way, and it's very easy with Gilliam to ensure that this best possible way happens to involve him have 4 SPD at the end of chapter 1.

[Salad Utensil]

But that doesn't matter. Gilliam is only good "sometimes". This is a negative quality. I don't think it's irrelevant to consider the case where the RNG God does not smile upon Gilliam, in which case he's trash, pure and simple.

I can't comment on how difficult it is to get him those kills since I've never used him, but I know that it's possible to do it with Neimi (since I did it with Lute). I don't know about Ross either since Ross has only 4 move.

I don't understand how Franz has trouble getting kills. I had Franz at level 15 at the end of Chapter 8. It is so easy to get him to kill stuff, it's hilarious.

Plus, why is he ferrying Joshua or Garcia or Eirika in earlygame?

All the Soldiers are on the north side of the map. Franz does not have the worst offense: he probably has the best, because he ORKOes Soldiers and 2HKOes Fighters (with perfect hit). I don't know where you people get it from that Franz is somehow a bad unit in this chapter. Franz can move south immediately and kill the Soldier. One kill. The second soldier suicides into him. Two kills. The third fighter hits him and he kills it back on player phase. Three kills. That's three kills already on turn 3, and Franz has 0% chance of death. It is so easy. Certainly, it is a lot easier than doing it with Gilliam (since he can't double the Soldiers and has lower hit on the Fighters).

The speed Proc only helps him a bit for chapter 4 since he can still handle the reinforcements without it, but just as a buffer to prevent him from getting doubled by 7AS enemies when his tanking would be useful. Even without the speed proc he is a good option to solo enemies in chapter 5's middle entrance and a good rescue drop option for Vanessa in chapter 7 (since Garcia and Franz won't survive without the dragon shield and enough level ups).

While it's true that Neimi CAN get kills (anyone can), someone else loses out on exp due to having to set up those kills especially when you have a lot of potentially useful characters that really want to reach promotion ASAP.

If you kill the first soldier with Franz (the one that doesn't attack you) you are not in range of the other soldier. If Franz gets hit in the counter attack of that first soldier (which is likely) he also has to dodge at least one of the two fighters with around 50 hit on him otherwise he dies (though sometimes the stats may vary depending on the RNs), unless Eirika already KOs one or both of them (in which case it doesn't matter). BTW my statement about costing turns was regarding giving him those chapter 1 reinforcement kills (my bad we were implying different situations).

If Eirika does not proc "Str" at some point before fighting the boss there is a chance she can't 1RKO the boss (since the boss' stats vary slightly due to the RNG), so Franz needs to deal the additional required damage the previous turn in order to secure a potential 5 turn completion. Franz is of course the best candidate since he can reach the boss on turn 3, but it also ties him up from getting too much experience in this chapter so some of it gets "wasted" on Gilliam. At most I can see Franz barely gaining a level up. I have no idea how you got Franz to level 15 by the end of chapter 8 considering mine is barely level 8 at the end of chapter 7 when I've been prioritizing kills for him (Though Franz missed the boss kills in chapter 2 and 3 because Eirika and Garcia like getting critical hits when they are completely unnecessary).

Edited June 30, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Rewjeo]

4 SPD means he ORKOs revenants (and loldiers later) in chapter 4. That's a lot of experience he's not getting if it's faster to put someone else there.

Do the boss's stats really vary? I thought all non-generic stats were fixed?

[-Cynthia-]

They do vary, at least the Hard Mode bonuses do.

I'm inclined to say Gilliam>Ross>Neimi, because Gilliam has the most use in earlygame chapters. Ross and Neimi are kinda similar statistically, but Ross levels up a lot faster so he becomes not terrible more quickly.

[Aquilae]

Gilliam has 14 Con unpromoted / GK, 16 if he goes general, so it's pretty infeasible to Rescue / Drop him, since the only units who can do that are unpromoted Vanessa / Tana.

Gilliam is not a good option to drop in Chapter 7. He is boned by the Thunder Mage up top, and the Archers will swarm him and block his path. Franz does have the durability to survive since he can ORKO Archers and Mages, unlike Gilliam, who can't double them. Eirika is pretty much the only character who can do substantial damage to Murray at this point though.

I concur with Anouleth, it's reasonable to get Franz up to level 15 by Chapter 8. Mine was level 13 after Chapter 7, with the Chapter 4 and Chapter 6 bosskills under his belt. He gets kills pretty easily, ORKOing Soldiers and Archers with a few levels, and dealing substantial damage to Fighters.

[Anouleth]

He's bad because he's bad? Basically, that's what I'm hearing. You use a unit in the best possible way, and it's very easy with Gilliam to ensure that this best possible way happens to involve him have 4 SPD at the end of chapter 1.

What you're saying makes no sense at all. It's not very easy to ensure that Gilliam has 4 speed at the end of chapter 1. In fact, I would go so far as it say it's quite difficult since the player is assumed to have no control over whether the RNG rolls above or below 30.

[dondon151]

I'm inclined to agree with Brighton's level estimate for Franz. I've played other games where the earlygame isn't completely dominated by the Jeigan unit (i.e., FE6) and if I wasn't able to get Dieck from level 5 to level 10 within the span of 5 maps, I'm highly skeptical about getting Franz from level 1 to level 15 in the span of 6 maps.

[Anouleth]

I'm inclined to agree with Brighton's level estimate for Franz. I've played other games where the earlygame isn't completely dominated by the Jeigan unit (i.e., FE6) and if I wasn't able to get Dieck from level 5 to level 10 within the span of 5 maps, I'm highly skeptical about getting Franz from level 1 to level 15 in the span of 6 maps.

Franz kind of does dominate earlygame after some levels, though. And he has 8 maps to gain those levels, not 6.

[RNG Princess]

Franz kind of does dominate earlygame after some levels, though. And he has 8 maps to gain those levels, not 6.

Feed him boss kills and he gets there faster Ch.2 Boss has lolhit I always feed him to Franz or Vanessa.

[Rewjeo]

What you're saying makes no sense at all. It's not very easy to ensure that Gilliam has 4 speed at the end of chapter 1. In fact, I would go so far as it say it's quite difficult since the player is assumed to have no control over whether the RNG rolls above or below 30.

I'm not saying what you're saying I'm saying. Gilliam will get SPD 30% of the time, but will only be used, in, say, 5% of playthroughs. So, over 20 playthroughs, he will get SPD in chapter 1 6 times, but will only be used once. Why wouldn't the player choose to use him when he has 4 SPD at the end of the chapter? The player doesn't have to rig any level ups, he/she just has to take advantage of a good level up.

I've had Franz at something like level 14 going into chapter 8. However, I'm pretty sure that I did not just fly Eirika over to the boss to finish the chapter really quickly, so there was a lot of EXP there for him.

[Anouleth]

I'm not saying what you're saying I'm saying. Gilliam will get SPD 30% of the time, but will only be used, in, say, 5% of playthroughs.

When discussing a unit, you should generally assume they are being used.

So, over 20 playthroughs, he will get SPD in chapter 1 6 times, but will only be used once. Why wouldn't the player choose to use him when he has 4 SPD at the end of the chapter? The player doesn't have to rig any level ups, he/she just has to take advantage of a good level up.

And he will only be able to do this 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time, Gilliam is even more trashy. If a character is so unusably poor that they won't be touched, "we weren't going to use them anyway" is not a valid excuse.

[Life]

Garcia: Better than this list says. In Chapter 2 if Vanessa rescues him and Ross talks to him (can be done on turn 3), he helps a ton with the bandits. He was also helpful in Chapter 3 by doing a lot of damage, because he could actually reach.

Garcia can be recruited on Turn 2.

Turn 1: Vanessa rescues Ross, Moulder take/drops him.

Turn 2: Vanessa rescues Garcia, Franz take/drops him, Eirika recruits Ross who recruits Garcia.

[Rewjeo]

When discussing a unit, you should generally assume they are being used.

I am, but seeing as we won't use Gilliam in 100% of playthroughs, there are only certain times he will be used.

And he will only be able to do this 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time, Gilliam is even more trashy. If a character is so unusably poor that they won't be touched, "we weren't going to use them anyway" is not a valid excuse.

Except Gilliam isn't so unusably poor that he won't be touched. Some of the time, yes, but that's true with all characters. Yes, this will happen to Gilliam more often than other units, but the player does not have to go out of his/her way to take a chance, and, if he is going to be unusably bad, then he won't be used. You can ignore his bad times because it is so easy for the player to do while still actually using him sometimes.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm also going to concur with Anouleth on Franz's level, I had him at 15 entering Chapter 8 as well.

Also the Gilliam Spd level up thing seems sort of off track, is he better/worse than Ross or not? (and if worse than Ross, is he better than Neimi?)

Edited June 30, 2011 by -Cynthia-