Radiant Dragon Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 As useless as L'arachel is, we DO have to assume she's being used, and when she's used she can heal. (Yes, I'm semi-conceding a point here.) It's not that simple. Neimi is one of a limited amount of fighters we have in the early chapters, and one of 2 (4 once Artur and Lute join) with good 2-range. By the time L'Arachel joins, we have no more use for yet another healer, especially one with only D staves. I still don't see how Knoll's poor combat and summoning is better than Rennac's mediocre combat, thieving, autopicks, and chest items. Summoning vs. Chest items is something I'm not going to bother arguing. I'm leaning towards Knoll solely because his use is unique while Colm can loot chests just as well as Rennac. I prupose trainee characters brought to level 10/1 in the tower (trainee/first tier, obv.) so perhaps they can be more helpful. If that gets accepted, Ross is easily above Gilliam. Ross can get to 10/1 before the route split if we're using him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 I still don't see how Knoll's poor combat and summoning is better than Rennac's mediocre combat, thieving, autopicks, and chest items. All Rennac really has is half credit for desert items. His combat probably still isn't contributing much and his thieving is worse than some person on a horse with keys. I prupose trainee characters brought to level 10/1 in the tower (trainee/first tier, obv.) so perhaps they can be more helpful. If that gets accepted, Ross is easily above Gilliam. Ross will reach 10/1 before the route split. The impact on Amelia/Ewan, though, would be interesting... It's not that simple. Neimi is one of a limited amount of fighters we have in the early chapters, and one of 2 (4 once Artur and Lute join) with good 2-range. By the time L'Arachel joins, we have no more use for yet another healer, especially one with only D staves. We don't need Neimi's chip damage, either, though. Besides, I wouldn't call her 2 range good, and all she has is whatever her chipping does. I guess that is more than the Bottom Tier people, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 We don't need Neimi's chip damage, either, though. Besides, I wouldn't call her 2 range good, and all she has is whatever her chipping does. I guess that is more than the Bottom Tier people, though. Few units are 'necessary', though. What matters is that Neimi's medicore 2-range damage when our team is at it's smallest and weakest is more useful than L'Arachel's medicore healing when we have a party full of great units that can't die. Healers are more easily outclassed by other healers than fighters are by other fighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquilae Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Keys only have 1/1 uses in this game, and it really clogs up the inventory if you're hoping to pilfer more chests. Besides, Rennac's better combat allow him to survive in places where Colm can't, which is helpful in the desert where Colm gets slaughtered by almost everything, while Rennac is 2RKOed at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salad Utensil Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Few units are 'necessary', though. What matters is that Neimi's medicore 2-range damage when our team is at it's smallest and weakest is more useful than L'Arachel's medicore healing when we have a party full of great units that can't die. Healers are more easily outclassed by other healers than fighters are by other fighters. I'm actually inclined to support this statement, while it's true she's basically outclassed by Lute, Garcia, and Artur in every way possible, I did NEED at least 3ish, 2 range chippers in chapters 5, 6, 8 to complete it efficiently (clearing away enemies that are in the way to the boss/throne). Take my sample playlog for what it is though (I'm not sure how valid it is). I'm not so sure about Ross though, 9 attack hitting defense is useless and deploying him in chapter 5, 6, and 8 if still unpromoted means you will actually end up eating more turns because of him. However, if someone can prove that they can promote Ross before chapter 5 without wasting turns I think he should be below Gilliam. Edited July 4, 2011 by Salad Utensil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Neimi only has 10 ATK to Ross's 9, and he grows much faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salad Utensil Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Neimi only has 10 ATK to Ross's 9, and he grows much faster. Neimi has twice as high of a speed growth and base and no competition for her weapons or promotion item (besides being sold of course). Her strength for all intents and purposes is the same as Ross' until he promotes. Neimi gets kills easier due to higher base speed and base attack. Even if Ross grows quickly he still doesn't grow quickly enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ross also only has 4 move in his trainee form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Leave it to DD151 to bring up the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Okay, changed the tier list. All I did was drop Gilliam/Ross/Nemi into Low and then put Syrene at the top of Low. Now Lower Mid is tiny, though. I could see quite a few of the Low Tier units moving there. I could see any or all of Syrene, Knoll, Rennac, and L'arachel in Lower Mid for at least not needing resources. Or in Knoll's case needing either the master seal (which he can get turn 1 on Eirika's route, and I remember showing that he is pretty solid in chapter 15 a long time ago if he promotes. Not sure how true it is, though) or a guiding ring (of which he have I think enough for all but one magic user to promote, and, well, we are NOT promoting every magic user in this game.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I will oppose L'Arachel's uselessness being any higher than the bottom of Low Tier. Syrene (and Eph. Innes) should definitely be in Lower Mid, although I'm less sure about Rennac (I'd be willing to support this) and Knoll (not so sure I'll support this one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 I will oppose L'Arachel's uselessness being any higher than the bottom of Low Tier. Syrene (and Eph. Innes) should definitely be in Lower Mid, although I'm less sure about Rennac (I'd be willing to support this) and Knoll (not so sure I'll support this one). L'arachel was the one I was least supportive of going into Lower Mid, but she doesn't take any resources to heal. I was looking at Eirika's list, so I didn't see Eph. Innes. I can see him in Lower Mid, too. Rennac and Knoll are not receiving 100% support from me, either, but, again, at least they aren't demanding resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) L'arachel was the one I was least supportive of going into Lower Mid, but she doesn't take any resources to heal. So? How useful can a 6 move healer with D staves as late as she joins be when we already have (or will have, in Ephraim's route) at least 2 other 6 move staff users with higher rank? Edited July 8, 2011 by Radiant Kitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 So? How useful can a 6 move healer with D staves as late as she joins be when we already have (or will have, in Ephraim's route) at least 2 other 6 move staff users with higher rank? The question, to me, is: We're guaranteed to use her, but does that mean that we will ignore those who also do her job since she will be on the field and we have no reason to use more than two healers? I mean, we DO have to use her, but we'll have Moulder/Natasha who can use Physic and Saleh who can fight, making them both so much better than her at her job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Speaking of Low/Lower Mid units, Tana's position is still a little weird. Somehow she's in Lower Mid on Eir route but Upper Mid on Eph route...even though on Eir route she has one more chapter and less competition (later joining Cormag). She could probably go above Eir Duessel. Myrrh has a similar issue of being higher on Eph route than Eir route, though I'd be fine with her in Lower Mid, since her limited availability limits her usefulness by quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yeah, I think that Tana's position must be a byproduct of something. Anyone object to Tana in Upper Mid in Eirika's, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 we'll have Moulder/Natasha who can use Physic and Saleh who can fight, making them both so much better than her at her job... Exactly. We don't need a 3rd staff user, and she's the worst of them. When debating her, we consider what she can do when she's around, but when a character is outclassed as a staff bot there's no incentive to deploy them over the others. However, just saying that she won't be used and relegating her to Bottom Tier isn't fair, either. But I honestly don't see her any higher than Low Tier. Yeah, I think that Tana's position must be a byproduct of something. Anyone object to Tana in Upper Mid in Eirika's, too? I have no objections. Tana's kind of underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Quoting myself from TEB I think Lute and Artur could drop to Lower Mid. 3RKOing earlygame just isn't spectacular, especially when you can only do that once a turn. There are enemies they do better against, but they still don't have the easiest time getting EXP. Generally they then want to promote ASAP (around chapter 10/11 at level 10) for staves and their combat isn't great in the long run. Actually, Artur might be able to stay higher. I got a pretty good turncount in my draft with him, and he got lots of EXP in chapter 4. More than Lute could, at least.Edit: Also, they promote just in time for Saleh to show up, and, well... Lute Saleh Artur HP 24 30 26 MAG 15 16 12 SKL 10 18 11 SPD 11 14 11 LUK 12 11 4 DEF 6 8 6 RES 11 13 12 He also has A Anima, C Light, and C Staves. So he also covers everything either of them can do, except he does it better. Except we have to give resources to get either of them to be... worse than Saleh. We also have Moulder/Natasha running around with A Staves. Edit 2: If Saleh is in Lower Mid, these guys need to be in Low. I think Saleh should be, at worst, top of Upper Mid. I mean, from here they need 6-7 more levels just to match his SPD. And if they can get 6-7 levels, then he can, too, putting him at 17 SPD, not 14. Yeah, I think those two should be in Lower Mid, or at the very least not > Saleh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Clarify- Eir route Saleh or Eph route Saleh? I certainly wouldn't put Lute/Artur below Eph route Saleh, except for C15 he really doesn't help to clear any of the remaining maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Artur can certainly outdo Saleh's staff rank. Lute might be able to match it, but even if she doesn't her movement trumps his in every chapter post C15. I'm not even sure why Saleh is as high as he is. I could certainly see him below Syrene on Eph. Route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Over there Saleh is in Lower Mid on Eir. Route. Sorry for that miscommunication. Anouleth, I assume you're talking about Eph. Saleh, right? Because Artur will hardly have more Staff WEXP than Saleh, and, as I showed, he is much better at combat than them. I agree with Eph. Route Saleh<Syrene, though. Still, no comments on Artur/Lute in lower mid? That was a comparison I was making there because Eir. Saleh was about where I saw them being. Here they are currently directly above him. Anyways: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salad Utensil Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Over there Saleh is in Lower Mid on Eir. Route. Sorry for that miscommunication. Anouleth, I assume you're talking about Eph. Saleh, right? Because Artur will hardly have more Staff WEXP than Saleh, and, as I showed, he is much better at combat than them. I agree with Eph. Route Saleh<Syrene, though. Still, no comments on Artur/Lute in lower mid? That was a comparison I was making there because Eir. Saleh was about where I saw them being. Here they are currently directly above him. Anyways: Being marginally worse at combat than Saleh on Eirika's route makes them lower mid because Saleh is lower mid on Ephraim's route? I don't follow your logic... Move Tana up a tier first since everyone agrees on that. Edited August 9, 2011 by Salad Utensil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Being worse at combat than Saleh on Eirika's route makes them lower mid? I don't follow your logic... Move Tana up a tier first since everyone agrees on that. I don't. Flight is just not that useful on Ephraim's route. It is only relevant in Chapters 13, 15, and 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I don't. Flight is just not that useful on Ephraim's route. It is only relevant in Chapters 13, 15, and 20. I disagree with this. In 11, flight allows for combat with the Mogalls/Gargoyles before they reach the ship (saving us turns), and in 12 fliers can go over water/the walls to get to the Dracoshield village and boss more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Flying helps in Ch17 as well, bypassing the river and all, unless we're 1-2 turning this with Myrrh crit/Warp/Tethys or something. It also allows you to bypass the gap in the middle in the final chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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