Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Shadow Mir]

These weapons allow her to do more damage to enemies which is more than can be said for Ewan and Amelia, especially Amelia who is dealing like 1damage on base.

Still, it's pretty questionable when you're handicapping her already low survivability in the process...

[RNG Princess]

Still, it's pretty questionable when you're handicapping her already low survivability in the process...

Ok maybe you're right ^_^ but you can't disagree with Shamshir.

[Radiant Dragon]

How often does Marisa 4HKO with Shamshir, though? It doesn't sound too implausible, know that I think about it...

[Shadow Mir]

Ok maybe you're right ^_^ but you can't disagree with Shamshir.

I'm not going to argue against Shamshir at all - the Armorslayer and Zanbato, however...

Edited June 11, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Anouleth]

Still, it's pretty questionable when you're handicapping her already low survivability in the process...

How so? Obviously Marisa is not going to be using these weapons for protracted enemy phase action, or indeed, is ever going to face enemy phase action ever.

However, her combat really is awful. Compare say, a level 10/1 Marisa to base level Rennac. I'd be really hard pressed to call Marisa better. And Rennac is an awful combatant, and 5 levels in two chapters is ridiculous for a character as bad as Marisa (not to say the cost of taking the hero crest).

[-Cynthia-]

How so? Obviously Marisa is not going to be using these weapons for protracted enemy phase action, or indeed, is ever going to face enemy phase action ever.

However, her combat really is awful. Compare say, a level 10/1 Marisa to base level Rennac. I'd be really hard pressed to call Marisa better. And Rennac is an awful combatant, and 5 levels in two chapters is ridiculous for a character as bad as Marisa (not to say the cost of taking the hero crest).

I dunno, her low base level does allow her to level up quickly. 5 in two might be a little much, but I could see her being 10/1 in three chapters.

Are you talking combat wise? I'm pretty sure a promoted Marisa is better than Rennac.

Rennac 28 HP 10 Str 17 Spd 9 Def 11 Res

10/1 Marisa(SM) 31 HP 10.5 Str 16 Spd 7 Def 5 Res

Really close except for Res, but Marisa has about 15 more Crit from being a SM (or Silencer if you're into that). Also Rennac's 5 base Lck probably gets some random crit chances against him Marisa doesn't have to worry about.

Ewan and Amelia are probably doing worse. If Marisa got a few levels, they're probably out of trainee status (which probably takes less Exp, but it's easier to feed Marisa kills).

10/1 Ewan 20.5 HP 7 Str 10 Spd 2 Def 9 Res

10/1 Amelia 23 HP 8 Str 9 Spd 7 Def 4 Res

Worse durability and worse offense (Ewan might hit similarly, but doesn't double or have crit). Also, Marisa has C Swords, which means she'll have Killer acess and thus can hope to kill things with criticals. Amelia and Ewan...not so much. Amelia and Ewan will improve faster, but they can only get as many hits as long as the chapter takes us and are difficult to feed kills.

[Shadow Mir]

How so? Obviously Marisa is not going to be using these weapons for protracted enemy phase action, or indeed, is ever going to face enemy phase action ever.

However, her combat really is awful. Compare say, a level 10/1 Marisa to base level Rennac. I'd be really hard pressed to call Marisa better. And Rennac is an awful combatant, and 5 levels in two chapters is ridiculous for a character as bad as Marisa (not to say the cost of taking the hero crest).

Like I said, she gets weighed down by the armorslayer and zanbato (and the latter doesn't even come until chapter 13).

[Rewjeo]

I dunno, her low base level does allow her to level up quickly. 5 in two might be a little much, but I could see her being 10/1 in three chapters.

Are you talking combat wise? I'm pretty sure a promoted Marisa is better than Rennac.

Rennac 28 HP 10 Str 17 Spd 9 Def 11 Res

10/1 Marisa(SM) 31 HP 10.5 Str 16 Spd 7 Def 5 Res

Really close except for Res, but Marisa has about 15 more Crit from being a SM (or Silencer if you're into that). Also Rennac's 5 base Lck probably gets some random crit chances against him Marisa doesn't have to worry about.

Uh, 3 HP, .5 STR, and 15 CRIT isn't that awesome. Especially when he has 2 DEF and 6 RES putting his durability higher, and the better luck, as you pointed out, can prevent random crits, putting his durability even higher up. And mind you, Rennac shows up for free. Marisa has to suck for three chapters in which we feed her kills, slowing us down more, and then we have to use a Hero Crest on her. Now, after that investment of EXP, turns, and a Hero Crest, we have Rennac with marginally better offense, worse defense, and no thief utility. Are you telling me that doesn't deserve a tier gap?

Ewan and Amelia are probably doing worse. If Marisa got a few levels, they're probably out of trainee status (which probably takes less Exp, but it's easier to feed Marisa kills).

10/1 Ewan 20.5 HP 7 Str 10 Spd 2 Def 9 Res

10/1 Amelia 23 HP 8 Str 9 Spd 7 Def 4 Res

Worse durability and worse offense (Ewan might hit similarly, but doesn't double or have crit). Also, Marisa has C Swords, which means she'll have Killer acess and thus can hope to kill things with criticals. Amelia and Ewan...not so much. Amelia and Ewan will improve faster, but they can only get as many hits as long as the chapter takes us and are difficult to feed kills.

Because it's not like Marisa "can only get as many hits as long as the chapter takes us and [is] difficult to feed kills."

Oh, wait.

She still may not (I'd say probably not) be able to actually contribute. The way bottom tier seems to work (with the exception of Syrene, who really should move out of it. Any objections?) is that they're all worthless when the join, and if you put resources into them, they still fail to contribute anything. Marisa may have better stats than them, but her stats are still really, really awful.

[Shadow Mir]

Uh, 3 HP, .5 STR, and 15 CRIT isn't that awesome. Especially when he has 2 DEF and 6 RES putting his durability higher, and the better luck, as you pointed out, can prevent random crits, putting his durability even higher up. And mind you, Rennac shows up for free. Marisa has to suck for three chapters in which we feed her kills, slowing us down more, and then we have to use a Hero Crest on her. Now, after that investment of EXP, turns, and a Hero Crest, we have Rennac with marginally better offense, worse defense, and no thief utility. Are you telling me that doesn't deserve a tier gap?

Who were you talking about having higher Luck? Because Rennac only has 5 base Luck and a 25% growth.

[Rewjeo]

Never mind that.... The way Cynthia worded it, it sounded like Rennac had 5 more luck, and didn't have luck in those stats. Well, it did to me when I first read it. I don't really know how I read it that way now...

[General Horace]

The way bottom tier seems to work (with the exception of Syrene, who really should move out of it.

I could see her moving above L'Arachel, as by the time we have L'Arachel, we already have Natasha and Moulder doing her job, if either of them are promoted, they equal or better her movement. Artur/Lute will be nearing promotion, and Lute has more movement and Artur has C staves, while both have average combat. L'Arachel also starts level 3, with D staves, and the only spammable staff she can use is the torch staff (no FoW maps aside from the map she is recruited on).

Syrene is useful in chapter 18 in taking out the eggs, and she can ferry someone to Morva in chapter 20, or carry Ephraim there the seize. She can rescue drop people across gaps in final as well, although you should still have some warp charges left.

[Jaybee]

Joshua ought to be over Natasha in Eph route. Josh is pulling 15 Atk, 14 AS and 36 Crit with a KE, and he gets 13 Atk with an Iron Sword. At this point, the only units beating him in offense are Franz with 9 Str at level 6 and Garcia, but Garcia only really outdamages Josh on Soldiers. I can't really go into very much detail, but Josh is able to consistently pull good offense on the team for the entire game, and he gets the Hero Crest on C10. No one else can really claim this Crest since Gerik comes with his own, Garcia's speed flops lategame, Ross is iffy and SM!Josh gets that beautiful +30 crit. After this, Josh is also one of the stronger competitors for Audhulma due to only perhaps Gerik being able to compete for it, and even if Josh doesn't get Audhulma he can buy Killing Edges in order to critblick at roughly 60% rates.

Natasha, on the other hand, starts out two levels below Moulder while coming 3 chapters later. It's quite possible that Moulder has already gained another level on Natasha, meaning that she's approximately 27 heals in levels behind him. There are 3 guiding rings before C15, and one more can be stolen there. Moulder and Artur probably get the first two because of Moulder's level lead and Artur's ability to engage in combat, leaving Natasha stuck on the third ring at C14.

I'm not sure if this can apply on Eirika route, because on Eir route Joshua only gets his Crest at C14, assuming Gerik is taking the early promo. This severely dents his offense because he'll be unable to utilize the +30 crit from SM, and his 35% Str growth also isn't exactly spectacular.

[Anouleth]

I can't really go into very much detail, but Josh is able to consistently pull good offense on the team for the entire game, and he gets the Hero Crest on C10. No one else can really claim this Crest since Gerik comes with his own, Garcia's speed flops lategame, Ross is iffy and SM!Josh gets that beautiful +30 crit.

Joshua also completely lacks 1-2 range, Garcia can patch up his speed with Garm, and the SM bonus is only +15. The only game that gives +30 is FE6. I don't know about Joshua being better lategame. Garcia has high enough strength to ORKO some lategame bosses: for example, 20/5 Garcia with Garm ORKOes Riev. If you give him a Speedwing, he ORKOes Morva.

After this, Josh is also one of the stronger competitors for Audhulma due to only perhaps Gerik being able to compete for it, and even if Josh doesn't get Audhulma he can buy Killing Edges in order to critblick at roughly 60% rates.

Joshua does not really offer anything in lategame. He doesn't deal great damage to lategame bosses, nor does he have flight or a mount or staves or 1-2 range or any of the other wonderful things that help. I guess he's good against Caellach, maybe Riev.

Natasha, on the other hand, starts out two levels below Moulder while coming 3 chapters later. It's quite possible that Moulder has already gained another level on Natasha, meaning that she's approximately 27 heals in levels behind him. There are 3 guiding rings before C15, and one more can be stolen there. Moulder and Artur probably get the first two because of Moulder's level lead and Artur's ability to engage in combat, leaving Natasha stuck on the third ring at C14.

It doesn't matter. Sure, Moulder can promote earlier. So what? Artur can also promote earlier. Who cares? Extra staff users are still helpful. I mean, I could go on about the number of combat units that are better than Joshua.

[Vykan12]

I think Eph route Cormag needs to go up.

A 10/1 Cormag has 34 hp/15.5 str/13 spd/11 skl/12 def/3 res/4 luck

Base level Duessel has 41 hp/17 str/12 spd/12 skl/17 def/9 res/8 luck

Cormag has very similar offense, the extra point of spd compensates somewhat for Duessel's complete WTC. Defensively, it appears Duessel crushes him, but most of that is overkill. On the pirate ship, a common enemy is an iron lance gargoyle, who does a whopping 6 damage to him (i.e. a 6HKO). Who cares if Duessel is invincible if Cormag's only going to die through extreme negligence? Granted, he'll occasionally need attention from healers that Duessel won't, or loses a player phase to a vulnerary, but it's no big deal.

Okay, Duessel is obviously winning, so why is this even an argument? Simple, AS, flight and leveling potential. Duessel's only shortcoming is his spd, and with a base level of --/8 and a 30% growth, he'll have trouble doubling anything promoted, possibly even with a speedwing. Cormag, on the other hand, already has a 1 base advantage, a much lower level, and a 15% growth advantage.

It's probably better not to promote Cormag so early, I just wanted to illustrate a point at how similar he is to Duessel when a whip is thrown at him (no pun intended?). Indeed, at level 9 he is easily levelling every 3-4 kills, and the upcoming maps are chock full of enemies. The pirate ship has over 40, the next one starts with 48, and there's even another Eph route rout map with 55. Even in efficient play he could easily gain 2-3 levels/chapter.

The advantages of flight should be obvious, Cormag has a 1 move advantage (2 once promoted), doesn't get obstructed by terrain (Duessel loses 3 move on forests and stuff) and has all that usual awesomeness like skipping large chunks of C19, desert utility, etc.

Granted, Cormag is already ranked pretty high, but I don't see a tier difference between the two. I might give this more thought later if I'm bored enough.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Vykan12

[grandjackal]

Some nice points. If I may interrupt, however...

Okay, Duessel is obviously winning, so why is this even an argument? Simple, AS, flight and leveling potential. Duessel's only shortcoming is his spd, and with a base level of --/8 and a 30% growth, he'll have trouble doubling anything promoted, possibly even with a speedwing. Cormag, on the other hand, already has a 1 base advantage, a much lower level, and a 15% growth advantage.

Leveling potential and flight he has for sure, but you forget 2 things. 1. This is if we promote Cormag early, who if we don't promote him early for his leveling potential, has only 10 AS. I believe there are steel lance gargs as well in these maps, whom at the slowest had 7 AS. A poor reflection upon Cormag when Deussal's doubling more. In fact, give Deussal speedwings, he gets the iron gargs as well. Granted he can't fly, but I would thin the quicker way to kill them would be having them come close for Deussal to destroy rather than hope Cormag having to take 2 turns to kill 1.

Also, Speedwings. Deussal's among the best cantidates for it, if not the best.

It's probably better not to promote Cormag so early, I just wanted to illustrate a point at how similar he is to Duessel when a whip is thrown at him (no pun intended?). Indeed, at level 9 he is easily levelling every 3-4 kills, and the upcoming maps are chock full of enemies. The pirate ship has over 40, the next one starts with 48, and there's even another Eph route rout map with 55. Even in efficient play he could easily gain 2-3 levels/chapter.

These maps are also nightmares for Cormag. Pirate Ship has steel bow skeletons roaming around with an effective 32 mt, doing a meaty 20 damage to him, along with Mogals flying alongside those gargs he wants to take on, doing some nice damage to his much weaker resistance stat if we're not promoting. Landing at the port I suppose isn't that big a deal, but then we've got the bolting mage Selena, and Grado Keep has status staffs just waiting to berserk him.

I would agree with the rest of your points, just these ones kinda bugged me.

[-Cynthia-]

I agree that Cormag should go up, possibly above Duessel. Though I suppose there's the question of Cormag vs. Vanessa. His stats are a bit better in most areas (except for like Res and Spd), but she's got an availability advantage.

Duessel's stats are great and all, but 6 Mov just gets him left in the the dust in comparison to Franz/Vanessa/Cormag/promoted Kyle or Forde etc. I might say the same for Eph.route Ephraim, but he gets 7 Mov eventually and is probably the best candidate for a C10 bosskill.

[Anouleth]

Duessel is a very fine Boots canditate anyway. In addition, while his base speed is not very good, he has almost sole access to Garm later on in the game, which lets him double faster promoted enemies.

[-Cynthia-]

Boots only help from C16 and on, and even then I'm not sure he's necessarily the best candidate. I think one might be able to save more turns with a 10 Mov flier than another 8 Mov unit. It's not like Duessel's performance in certain tasks (killing Riev for example) can't be duplicated by other high Mov units without using the Boots.

[Anouleth]

Boots only help from C16 and on, and even then I'm not sure he's necessarily the best candidate. I think one might be able to save more turns with a 10 Mov flier than another 8 Mov unit.

Really? I'd rather have two 8 move units than one 10 move and one 6 move unit in Chapter 16 and Chapter 18. Maybe a 10 move flier might help a little bit more in Chapter 20 and Final.

[Rewjeo]

Mind you, depending on our team, we might have so many 8 MOV units already that a 10 MOV unit is more helpful than yet another 8 MOV unit. It's not all that inconceivable, either. Franz, Kyle, Forde, Seth, Cormag, Tana/Vanessa, and then 7 MOV units with the lords. Then Syrene shows up. That's 6-7 8 MOV units, and, with the exception of Tana/Vanessa and maybe Syrene, they're all very likely to be in use.

[Reikken]

A change log and a list of current discussions? This tier list may be top tier.

I still never completed this game, though.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Reikken

[Rewjeo]

Okay, so Syrene is no longer in bottom. I think she could still go higher, but that at least is out of the way. And, well...

[spoiler=Changelog]

June 4, 2011: Colm out of Top

June 20/21, 2011: Syrene from top of Bottom to bottom of Low

[spoiler=Current Discussions]

Franz in his own tier? Eph. Ephraim, Eph. Duessel, Vanessa in Top Tier w/ Franz?

Neimi<Knoll, Rennac, L'arachel

Lute+Artur Down

Giliam Down

Garcia<Eir. Cormag, Duessel

Tana up

Joshua up

Eph. Gerik<Kyle, Forde

Eir. Innes>Ephraim

Syrene up

Colm far down

Whether the boots are better used on a 6 MOV unit or an 8 MOV unit...

Two things in the changelog. Twelve in the current discussions. Can we at least settle a discussion before moving on to the next one? Going down the list...

Top tier shit: Don't wanna touch right now.

Neimi<Knoll, Rennac, L'arachel: Works for me.

Lute+Artur Down: Since I brought this up, well, I agree. Where to, though? I haven't thought all that much about it

Giliam Down: Everyone seems to agree. Where do people want him to go?

Garcia<Eir. Cormag, Duessel: I don't have an opinion on this right now.

Tana up: Makes sense to me.

Joshua up: This too.

Eph. Gerik<Kyle, Forde: I concur

Eir. Innes>Ephraim: No opinion here.

Syrene up: I still say she needs to go up higher.

Colm far down: Needs to happen.

Whether the boots are better used on a 6 MOV unit or an 8 MOV unit...: Who gives a flying rat's ankle right now? ignore my post just before this one

Edited June 21, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Giliam Down: Everyone seems to agree. Where do people want him to go?

Lower Mid? Between Dozla and Ross, maybe? that might be too nice

That's assuming he's even used earlygame.

[-Cynthia-]

Neimi<Knoll, Rennac, L'arachel: Works for me.

Agreed.

Lute+Artur Down: Since I brought this up, well, I agree. Where to, though? I haven't thought all that much about it

Maybe below Saleh or Eir route, right above Natasha on Eph. I'd say they're both better than Natasha though, staff lock means it takes her forever to promote and all she really ends up having on Artur/Lute is staff rank. Granted, Warp can save some turns, but it's easier to get Moulder to that rank than Natasha anyway (and almost as easy to get Artur there). Also switch Lute/Artur order due to staff rank.

Giliam Down: Everyone seems to agree. Where do people want him to go?

He's probably not worse than Ross, though Ross eventually becomes kind of decent it's difficult to do while low turning. Somewhere in that tier is probably best though.

Garcia<Eir. Cormag, Duessel: I don't have an opinion on this right now.

Disagree, Garcia's earlygame contributions are better than Cormag/Duessel's lategame. In a Sethless run we need all the decent combat units we can get earlygame and Garcia qualifies more than most.

Tana up: Makes sense to me.

I'd put her above Cormag in Eir route wouldn't really change her in Eph route. I don't really think her flying utility outweighs Garcia's earlygame when we already have Vanessa and Eph Cormag to work with once she joins.

Joshua up: This too.

I disagree, I think he's fine where he is. He doesn't have enough Mt to ORKO a lot of enemy types later in the game, he's locked to 1 range and he has no mount. He's good at jointime, but there aren't many chapters until people like Kyle/Forde show up and make Joshua kind of irrelevant. He's also got some promotion issues in Eir route, since he either has to take the Crest from Gerik or wait until C14 which is pretty late.

Eph. Gerik<Kyle, Forde: I concur

Definitely agreed.

Eir. Innes>Ephraim: No opinion here.

Meh I'd guess I'd give Innes the nod, about double the availability helps.

Syrene up: I still say she needs to go up higher.

How useful are Phantoms really? Not sure whether they're better than a mediocre combat flier or not, haven't really used them personally. She's probably better than L'Arachel regardless though.

Colm far down: Needs to happen.

How far though? He does get us an Energy Ring no one else can get and some desert items. Combat...not so good, but not absolutely terrible either. Maybe right below Joshua or something?

Whether the boots are better used on a 6 MOV unit or an 8 MOV unit...: Who gives a flying rat's ankle right now? ignore my post just before this one

It's important for Eph Duessel's placement, without the Boots he compares more unfavorably to Cormag/Vanessa. He still has the disadvantage until C16 though and there's an opportunity cost either way (giving someone like Gerik the Boots for example, gives us a similar result). If he needs the Boots to beat Vanessa/Cormag I say he should go under them.

Edited June 21, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Joshua up: This too.

I disagree, I think he's fine where he is. He doesn't have enough Mt to ORKO a lot of enemy types later in the game, he's locked to 1 range and he has no mount. He's good at jointime, but there aren't many chapters until people like Kyle/Forde show up and make Joshua kind of irrelevant. He's also got some promotion issues in Eir route, since he either has to take the Crest from Gerik or wait until C14 which is pretty late.

The one thing about Joshy is that he's probably one of the best Audhulma candidates, especially on Eph. Mode where Gerik comes in three chapters late, giving Josh less competition for the C10 hero crest (Ross and Garcia are virtually useless by this point, especially because Duessel joins that chapter), not to mention the fact he doubles a lot of things, things that Base Kyle and Base Forde can't. On Eir. Mode Hero!Gerik will probably get Audhulma unless you go for Garm on him (which is doable if he starts using axes upon join time), because Duessel joins much later and has movement issues in the desert.

Looking at the list though, he should stay where he is, because he's right below Natasha in both routes, and she has healspamming, which is always useful, especially with no Seth.

Also, I think Lute and Artur should drop to around Natasha's level. At least below Forde and Moulder, at any rate. Even if they're in the same tier, but below Forde and Moulder seems smart.