Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Aquilae]

I've found Joshua to be very useful for dealing with Mercs / Myrms, since he can do substantial damage and possibly ORKO them. 16/1 Joshua has 14 Str, which allows him to ORKO most Mercs and all Myrms with Steel. His higher speed also allows him to take on Calleach easily, 3RKOing with a Silver Sword, or 2RKOing with Audhulma. He can also double fast enemies like Mauthe Doogs or Gwylggis. Promoting in Chapter 14 doesn't handicap him too much, as he can still do his job in chapters 12 and 13 without the Crest.

I'd say that Joshua's ability to dispatch some of the toughest enemy types puts him above Lute and Artur on both lists. Lute and Artur have to contend with a worse start compared to Joshua and poorer durability.

I also think Eir!Saleh should move to the bottom of High. Saleh has 1-2 range and great offense, ORKOing most enemies at base. He does have trouble with faster enemy types that he can't double, like Mercs and Myrms, but most other units have problems with them too.

Saleh is very useful in Chapter 12 as he can take out the spiders easily, and pulverizes most other enemy types. He is very useful in Chapter 14, as he can take on the lower-left corner by himself, clearing out the enemies in the treasure rooms. He shrugs off magic, and can take on the Knights easily, freeing up more units to charge the throne room and help out on the boss.

Saleh is the only unit that can ORKO Wyvern Riders at 1-2 range in Chapter 15. The Cavs need the Dragonspear, and Gerik needs Steel / Silver to nab ORKOs on the Wyvern Riders. He also has good Move in the desert, and can deal huge amounts of damage to the promoted enemies.

Saleh's durability is pretty lacking, he gets 3RKOed by a lot of enemies. However, his evasion is good and he normally faces ~40% hit chances from unpromoted enemies. Saleh's Staff Rank is just icing on the cake, allowing him to use Restore, and he stands a good chance at being able to use Physic and Rescue by endgame.

[Anouleth]

I'd say that Joshua's ability to dispatch some of the toughest enemy types puts him above Lute and Artur on both lists. Lute and Artur have to contend with a worse start compared to Joshua and poorer durability.

They're better later on due to staff utility, and in Lute's case, a horse.

[Rewjeo]

I'd say that Joshua's ability to dispatch some of the toughest enemy types puts him above Lute and Artur on both lists. Lute and Artur have to contend with a worse start compared to Joshua and poorer durability.

I agree.

I also think Eir!Saleh should move to the bottom of High. Saleh has 1-2 range and great offense, ORKOing most enemies at base. He does have trouble with faster enemy types that he can't double, like Mercs and Myrms, but most other units have problems with them too.

I've argued this before. I still agree.

They're better later on due to staff utility, and in Lute's case, a horse.

Awesome. They're better than Joshua later on. Y'know, once we've gotten past the phase where they 3RKO and are 2RKO'd in return.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

They're better later on due to staff utility, and in Lute's case, a horse.

This, also because Joshua is a swordlock, which hurts him especially against lategame Generals and Paladins that he can't ORKO unless he's got some good levels and Audhulma.

To echo your Saleh point, I agree, he has a lot of utility. He starts with Restore instantly which is good because there's a decent amount of poison weapons in C12 IIRC, and odds are Lute can't use Restore (Artur can maybe, and Natasha and Moulder are probably too frail to be that far up in the lines). So he's a strong candidate for a restore staff that he can get on T1 from someone. Sadly Elfire weighs him down but honestly it weighs everyone not named Sage!Moulder down, and Saleh is affected the least by it (his con is 8 and Elfire's weight is 10). He can use Thunder without AS loss though, and I'm pretty sure he still doubles the monsters in C12 except for the Mauthe Doogs, IIRC, but he has 26 ATK with Elfire which should OHKO them or leave them with roughly 1-2 HP. Without any weight penalties he starts at base with 39 AVO which can dodge most monsters with their lolskill. He has 8 base DEF, so he'll really only see hurt from Fetid Claws which are rare, and he doubles every monster who has that anyway. Looking ahead, he can use Recover as well as Restore at base, which gives him good staffbot potential. I'm unsure of how much staff uses it takes to reach B, but assuming in the process he gains ~3 levels, he'll average 16.9 magic, so he has ~8-9 range with Physic which we can get in the C14 Secret Shop. He'll be very useful in C15 because he can move freely and staffbot anyone who needs it, especially Knoll who has lolable avoid, glass cannons with their loldefense, and other magic users who don't have high avoid. He's probably going to get a lot of kills anyway because he can move freely, and he's better to take out the Wyverns at the top of the map and the Wyverns near Valter, because your fliers are probably not going to ORKO them except for Cormag if he procs speed. Continuing onward his utility drops a bit because of his growths, he averages at --/10 34.5 HP, 18.7 MAG, 20.25 SKL, 17.6 SPD, 14.6 LCK, 10.7 DEF, and 16.15 RES, which will be outclassed by Artur and Lute who have better growths, and especially Lute because she has a pony.

I think Eir!Saleh can move, at any rate, above Lute (maybe Artur) because his contributions in midgame outweigh her while she's still going for self improvement.

[dondon151]

They're better later on due to staff utility, and in Lute's case, a horse.

I don't think this qualifies as an automatic win. Lute's staff utility is worthless and I'd argue that her horse is not very useful lategame either compared to Joshua being consistently good against enemy sword users.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

In any case, though, Joshua is consistently good against sword users, something very few units can say barring Franz, Ephraim, Cormag, and Duessel (having the speed to double/avoid or the defense to take little damage). Joshua's doubling early and he's doubling throughout, but by lategame he's not going to do a lot of damage to some of the units that start appearing more, i.e. Generals and Paladins.

Bringing up this:

This, also because Joshua is a swordlock, which hurts him especially against lategame Generals and Paladins that he can't ORKO unless he's got some good levels and Audhulma.

[Anouleth]

I don't think this qualifies as an automatic win. Lute's staff utility is worthless and I'd argue that her horse is not very useful lategame either compared to Joshua being consistently good against enemy sword users.

I'm not saying it's an automatic win, but it's more complicated than just pointing at Joshua's better combat and declaring victory. If anything, her horse is most useful in lategame. She is a much better choice for a deployment slot in Chapter 16 and 18, for instance.

In any case, though, Joshua is consistently good against sword users, something very few units can say barring Franz, Ephraim, Cormag, and Duessel (having the speed to double/avoid or the defense to take little damage). Joshua's doubling early and he's doubling throughout, but by lategame he's not going to do a lot of damage to some of the units that start appearing more, i.e. Generals and Paladins.

Bringing up this:

There are Generals and Paladins in lategame?

Awesome. They're better than Joshua later on. Y'know, once we've gotten past the phase where they 3RKO and are 2RKO'd in return.

I don't see what Artur and Lute's shitty combat have to do with anything. Rather, I was thinking "past the phase where they can't use staves". Which is like, Chapter 11.

[Radiant Dragon]

There are Generals and Paladins in lategame?

In Chapters 17 and 19. However, the Paladins in 17 aren't in our way and we're probably Warping someone past the Generals in 19.

I don't see what Artur and Lute's shitty combat have to do with anything. Rather, I was thinking "past the phase where they can't use staves". Which is like, Chapter 11.

Isn't this what we have Moulder, Natasha and Saleh for? Just how many staff users do we need?

Edited June 25, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Anouleth]

Oh, I missed the bit where dondon said Lute's staff utility was "worthless": it isn't. Healing is useful, and Lute can reasonably reach C Staves by about Chapter 16 (not really sure about this, it might be possible earlier) for using Barrier, Hammerne and Restore.

Isn't this what we have Moulder, Natasha and Saleh for? Just how many staff users do we need?

Saleh barely exists in Ephraim Route (he certainly isn't worth deploying over Lute in Chapter 16 or 18), and both Moulder and Natasha lack combat or mounts. Lute's combat is not good, but she can contribute, and she can also help with rescue-dropping and just in general, keep up with other units.

All of this is besides the point: Obviously, Lute and Artur do not deserve High Tier and should move down, but Joshua should not be taking their place. I'm not really happy with the idea of Lute and Artur being overrated being used to catapult another undeserving unit into High, which is already way too big.

[Radiant Dragon]

All of this is besides the point: Obviously, Lute and Artur do not deserve High Tier and should move down, but Joshua should not be taking their place. I'm not really happy with the idea of Lute and Artur being overrated being used to catapult another undeserving unit into High, which is already way too big.

I don't believe Joshua is High Tier either, but I do think he's better than Lute and Artur. He's a great help from the moment he joins, and continues to fare well throughout the game. Swordlock sucks, but it's not nearly as debilitating as people make it out to be.

[Anouleth]

I don't believe Joshua is High Tier either, but I do think he's better than Lute and Artur. He's a great help from the moment he joins, and continues to fare well throughout the game. Swordlock sucks, but it's not nearly as debilitating as people make it out to be.

Lute and Artur between Joshua and Eirika sounds fine to me.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not seeing Natasha>Artur really. Depends how soon we promote Artur I guess (C9/C10 or so?), but I don't think it will be so late that Natasha will have passed C staves, meaning that they can have the same staff rank. Artur will also have some offense (as opposed to none), +1 Mov, and some durability over her.

Natasha could eventually catch up in some areas after promoting, but she just takes forever to promote. Staves generally don't give out much exp if we're low turning and she starts off at level 1.

[Radiant Dragon]

I could see Natasha moving between Artur and Lute.

[dondon151]

Healing is useful,

Ahaha, good one. It is if you do it from 8 tiles away. Not really if you have to be adjacent to an ally. I don't remember healing being very useful in 0% growths and I certainly don't think it would be useful when every other character is not gimped by Seth.

Edited June 25, 2011 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

I don't see how Lute being a third (or worse) string healer and a subpar rescuer is better than Joshua's earlygame contributions alone when you consider the resources that need to be invested in Lute. Then there's the part where Joshua is good for quite a while against the faster enemies. Now, Artur can do more in chapter 4, needs less EXP, and gets to C staves on promotion, so I'm not as opposed to him being above Joshua, but I still feel Joshua contributes more.

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, Artur is still a second or third string healer and is 2HKO'd by anything not a mage until he promotes. Not to mention he doesn't have the attack to ORKO enemies even when he doubles until he promotes (and even then, he might miss the ORKO on some).

[-Cynthia-]

Well, Artur is still a second or third string healer and is 2HKO'd by anything not a mage until he promotes. Not to mention he doesn't have the attack to ORKO enemies even when he doubles until he promotes (and even then, he might miss the ORKO on some).

What do you mean by "second or third string"? For the chapters before we get Warp, Artur heals more than Moulder/Natasha, has more Mov than them, and has enough staff rank to use Restore. He's also more durable and less of a liability on the Enemy Phase because he counters.

Same goes for Lute really, though she has 1 more Mov and can't use Restore.

[Radiant Dragon]

What do you mean by "second or third string"? For the chapters before we get Warp, Artur heals more than Moulder/Natasha, has more Mov than them, and has enough staff rank to use Restore. He's also more durable and less of a liability on the Enemy Phase because he counters.

I only meant that Artur isn't healing early on, when it's more important.

[Anouleth]

I don't see how Lute being a third (or worse) string healer and a subpar rescuer is better than Joshua's earlygame contributions alone when you consider the resources that need to be invested in Lute. Then there's the part where Joshua is good for quite a while against the faster enemies. Now, Artur can do more in chapter 4, needs less EXP, and gets to C staves on promotion, so I'm not as opposed to him being above Joshua, but I still feel Joshua contributes more.

What earlygame contributions? You mean the bit where Franz charges Novala, then Vanessa drops Eirika across the lake to seize? And then in Chapter 9, he's dead weight since you really need 1-2 range to be of significant use. Chapter 10 is a defend chapter. Chapter 11 is another Rout chapter with lots of ranged enemies where Joshua will struggle to survive on the front lines. Joshua is good against faster enemies, but there just aren't that many sword-using enemies in the game.

[Jaybee]

I am curious to find out why Gilliam is above Garcia in both routes when Garcia provides better offense, has better movement and can also take hits relatively well (Fuck it if Gilliam is being 10HKO'd by physical attacks, he's not getting to them in the first place). Both face pretty strong competition for promotion items (Garcia has Josh and Gerik, Gilliam has to wait until C13 Eir/C14 Eph since the C10 Eph cavs ARE dying, and also Kyle + Forde). However, Garcia's competition is slightly smaller, and with no Seth he's like the second-best damage dealer earlygame.

[RNG Princess]

Howcome Ephraim is top tier in his mode but Eirika is not in her mode?

[Jaybee]

Howcome Ephraim is top tier in his mode but Eirika is not in her mode?

Eirika doesn't have his better durability and Might, and she's swordlocked. Ephraim also has Reginleif, which smmashes Rapier into the ground.

[-Cynthia-]

How can we not save the C10 Cavs again? Assuming an Ephraim drop near Beran, he should be able to KO him and end the chapter before they're in any real danger. Plus, we can move Franz/Kyle/Forde over to the cavs pretty quickly to help them out.

[RNG Princess]

Eirika doesn't have his better durability and Might, and she's swordlocked. Ephraim also has Reginleif, which smmashes Rapier into the ground.

She has 2 rapiers in her route and more availability though. I'm assuming she's as good in her route as he is in his own but i'm not entirely sure.

[Rewjeo]

What earlygame contributions? You mean the bit where Franz charges Novala, then Vanessa drops Eirika across the lake to seize? And then in Chapter 9, he's dead weight since you really need 1-2 range to be of significant use. Chapter 10 is a defend chapter. Chapter 11 is another Rout chapter with lots of ranged enemies where Joshua will struggle to survive on the front lines. Joshua is good against faster enemies, but there just aren't that many sword-using enemies in the game.

We're talking about both routes, here. If it makes that much of a difference between routes for him, though, then that's worth looking into.

I am curious to find out why Gilliam is above Garcia in both routes when Garcia provides better offense, has better movement and can also take hits relatively well (Fuck it if Gilliam is being 10HKO'd by physical attacks, he's not getting to them in the first place). Both face pretty strong competition for promotion items (Garcia has Josh and Gerik, Gilliam has to wait until C13 Eir/C14 Eph since the C10 Eph cavs ARE dying, and also Kyle + Forde). However, Garcia's competition is slightly smaller, and with no Seth he's like the second-best damage dealer earlygame.

Because everyone has said that Gilliam sucks, but we don't know where he should go.

Howcome Ephraim is top tier in his mode but Eirika is not in her mode?

I actually think this is worth looking into. After all, she has her whole awesome earlygame before he exists. I'm not sure that he's really so much better in his route that he should be that much higher than her.