Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Radiant Dragon]

Eirika should be above Colm on her route. As for whether she should be in Top Tier? I'm against that, due to lack of 2-range and she misses the 2HKO on a lot of things.

[Jaybee]

She has 2 rapiers in her route and more availability though. I'm assuming she's as good in her route as he is in his own but i'm not entirely sure.

She phases out of ORKOing stuff, and is kinda ... frail. Also, Rapier does effective damage while on WTD, Reginlief gets WTN and is also a great weapon against other enemies (It's a Steel Lance that doesn't weigh Eph down and is more accurate).

Though comparing Eir route Eirika to Eph route Ephraim is kinda stupid admittedly.

[Rewjeo]

I don't think Eirika deserves Top Tier, but I do question how much of an impact Ephraim makes in his route. The more and better units there are available, the less of an impact a unit makes.

[Darros]

On Eirika's Route, Innes is too high. No player phase is not fantastic here. Definately should be brought below Duessel and Cormag.

Garcia > Gilliam, just switch the two's order. Garcia has higher movement and speed, and it's not like either of them will be used long term anyway.

Neimi to low, at least. Her class sucks, and you have to give her 9 levels for her to have a melee weapon. I have no idea how she's above Rennac (who can pick things) or Syrene (extra flier).

Saleh to the bottom of high. He may not have the best of growths, but his bases are decent, and there is that one chapter he's forced in, so he doesn't cost a deployment slot then. 16 Mag/14 Speed is good for bases, and he has slightly more room to grow here because he starts off at level 1 compared to level 4.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Spykor

[Radiant Dragon]

On Eirika's Route, Innes is too high. No player phase is not fantastic here. Definately should be brought below Duessel and Cormag.

Duessel and Cormag have less availability than Innes, and their offense isn't as good as Innes' right off the bat (they both have doubling problems).

[Anouleth]

How can we not save the C10 Cavs again? Assuming an Ephraim drop near Beran, he should be able to KO him and end the chapter before they're in any real danger. Plus, we can move Franz/Kyle/Forde over to the cavs pretty quickly to help them out.

How can Ephraim kill Beran? A level 12 Ephraim with Reginleif does only 20 damage to Beran's 45 HP, at 15 display hit, and doesn't double. In return, Beran 2HKOes at more than 90 display hit. If Ephraim switches to an Axereaver, his accuracy improves to 60 display hit, but he's now dealing 7 damage per hit, which barely even beats throne healing.

Garcia > Gilliam, just switch the two's order. Garcia has higher movement and speed, and it's not like either of them will be used long term anyway.

If all we're using Garcia for is the Chapter 4 Rout, I question why he's in Upper Mid in the first place. Even Syrene sees action in more than one chapter. Gilliam might not even be brought to Chapter 4.

Why is Myrrh above Saleh? Myrrh joins a chapter later (after the important desert chapter, no less). Saleh is better than her. He has 1-2 range. Staff access. Movement advantage. More speed.

I could see Myrrh and Gilliam moving into Bottom Tier.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Anouleth

[Radiant Dragon]

How can Ephraim kill Beran? A level 12 Ephraim with Reginleif does only 20 damage to Beran's 45 HP, at 15 display hit, and doesn't double. In return, Beran 2HKOes at more than 90 display hit. If Ephraim switches to an Axereaver, his accuracy improves to 60 display hit, but he's now dealing 7 damage per hit, which barely even beats throne healing.

How is Ephraim's accuracy increasing with the Axereaver when Beran has a Sword? EDIT: Oh, he has a Lancereaver.

Why is Myrrh above Saleh? Myrrh joins a chapter later (after the important desert chapter, no less). Saleh is better than her. He has 1-2 range. Staff access. Movement advantage. More speed.

I could see Myrrh and Gilliam moving into Bottom Tier.

Myrrh OHKO's monsters (except Dracozombies and Cyclopses) and flies. Not better than Saleh, but not Bottom Tier.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Psych]

How can Ephraim kill Beran? A level 12 Ephraim with Reginleif does only 20 damage to Beran's 45 HP, at 15 display hit, and doesn't double. In return, Beran 2HKOes at more than 90 display hit. If Ephraim switches to an Axereaver, his accuracy improves to 60 display hit, but he's now dealing 7 damage per hit, which barely even beats throne healing.

If all we're using Garcia for is the Chapter 4 Rout, I question why he's in Upper Mid in the first place. Even Syrene sees action in more than one chapter. Gilliam might not even be brought to Chapter 4.

Why is Myrrh above Saleh? Myrrh joins a chapter later (after the important desert chapter, no less). Saleh is better than her. He has 1-2 range. Staff access. Movement advantage. More speed.

I could see Myrrh and Gilliam moving into Bottom Tier.

It might have to do with Myrrh being 3x effective against the last 2-3 chapters of the game and she can fly.

[-Cynthia-]

How can Ephraim kill Beran? A level 12 Ephraim with Reginleif does only 20 damage to Beran's 45 HP, at 15 display hit, and doesn't double. In return, Beran 2HKOes at more than 90 display hit. If Ephraim switches to an Axereaver, his accuracy improves to 60 display hit, but he's now dealing 7 damage per hit, which barely even beats throne healing.

Have Vanessa/Cormag stand 3 spaces away, Beran will shoot at them with the Longbow and Ephraim won't take Lancereaver penalties, even if he's standing right next to Beran. I suppose he doesn't double without a Speedwing though. Even discounting Ephraim, it's probably better to try Vanessa with a Horseslayer or something rather than waiting out the entire map for no particular reason.

Edited June 25, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

How is Ephraim's accuracy increasing with the Axereaver when Beran has a Sword?

Because the sword that Beran carries is a Lancereaver. Have you even played this chapter?

Myrrh OHKO's monsters (except Dracozombies and Cyclopses) and flies. Not better than Saleh, but not Bottom Tier.

Flight at 5 movement is almost worthless. It's certainly much worse than a typical 6 move unit in Chapter 16 and 18, and you could make a good case for it being worse in Chapter 20 and Final.

Being able to ORKO a monster is not a great asset. Most decent characters can ORKO monsters; all can do so if they're using an S Rank weapon; a lot can do it at 1-2 range; and a lot of them do it with better movement. I can't imagine Myrrh being comparable to anyone outside of bottom tier. Even a dumbshit like Eph. Route Innes is at least useful in Chapter 15.

Have Vanessa/Cormag stand 3 spaces away, Beran will shoot at them with the Longbow and Ephraim won't take Lancereaver penalties, even if he's standing right next to Beran. I suppose he doesn't double without a Speedwing though. Even discounting Ephraim, it's probably better to try Vanessa with a Horseslayer or something rather than waiting out the entire map for no particular reason.

Vanessa gets OHKOed by Beran for a long time (until level 19). Even if she isn't OHKOed, there are Wyvern Knights and Fleets that can also hurt her.

Ephraim needs to be level 18 with a Speedwing to double Beran. That's a pretty high level.

Vanessa with a Horseslayer is an even worse idea than using Ephraim. Quite besides the difficulty of training her to a decent level in the first place, she has even greater hit issues than Ephraim and deals even less damage.

I am not suggesting that we wait out the map. However, in my opinion, the most effective strategy is to use Duessel with either the Silver Axe or the Halberd to kill Beran. While it is slower, it is not as absurdly risky as having Vanessa try to tank bow shots, or Ephraim try to land 15 hit rates.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Anouleth

[Radiant Dragon]

Because the sword that Beran carries is a Lancereaver. Have you even played this chapter?

I forgot that he had a Lancereaver. It's been a long time since I played that chapter, and I thought he had a Killing Edge instead.

As for Myrrh, being able to OHKO monsters and take almost no damage in return should at least put her above the likes of Neimi and the Trainees. Definitely not Saleh though, and I'm not sure about Dozla. His offense and durability are suspect on many enemies, if I remember correctly.

[Anouleth]

I forgot that he had a Lancereaver. It's been a long time since I played that chapter, and I thought he had a Killing Edge instead.

As for Myrrh, being able to OHKO monsters and take almost no damage in return should at least put her above the likes of Neimi and the Trainees. Definitely not Saleh though, and I'm not sure about Dozla. His offense and durability are suspect on many enemies, if I remember correctly.

Since Dozla can pick up Garm and OHKO most monsters, I wouldn't call him worse than Myrrh. His defense and HP are fine, he has more movement and much more availability than Myrrh, as well as existent 1-2 range. Admittedly, his speed is dire, but Myrrh's is even worse.

[Radiant Dragon]

Since Dozla can pick up Garm and OHKO most monsters, I wouldn't call him worse than Myrrh. His defense and HP are fine, he has more movement and much more availability than Myrrh, as well as existent 1-2 range. Admittedly, his speed is dire, but Myrrh's is even worse.

Myrrh doesn't care about Speed, though. And Dozla only starts with B Axes, so I'm not sure he'll reach Garm in time, with his Speed prohibiting doubles on a fair amount of enemies.

[Anouleth]

Myrrh doesn't care about Speed, though. And Dozla only starts with B Axes, so I'm not sure he'll reach Garm in time, with his Speed prohibiting doubles on a fair amount of enemies.

Huh, really?

Still, monsters are only a small minority of the enemies that you face, since there are very few monsters that need to be fought in lategame. Dozla is far superior in Chapters 11 through 15 due to existing, and probably better in 16 and 18 as well.

[Darros]

Myrrh doesn't care about Speed, though. And Dozla only starts with B Axes, so I'm not sure he'll reach Garm in time, with his Speed prohibiting doubles on a fair amount of enemies.

That's 65 swings of a Steel Axe, Hammer, or Swordreaver. But not many other people are using axes here. Gerik. But he wants Audhulma more.

[Radiant Dragon]

Still, monsters are only a small minority of the enemies that you face, since there are very few monsters that need to be fought in lategame. Dozla is far superior in Chapters 11 through 15 due to existing, and probably better in 16 and 18 as well.

As long as Myrrh stays in Lower Mid, whether or not she's above Dozla isn't too important (to me, anyway). They're roles are pretty different, so it's tough for me to compare them. Myrrh's better when she's around, but Dozla's around longer.

[Anouleth]

As long as Myrrh stays in Lower Mid, whether or not she's above Dozla isn't too important (to me, anyway). They're roles are pretty different, so it's tough for me to compare them. Myrrh's better when she's around, but Dozla's around longer.

Is she? Dozla is better in Chapter 16 and 18, I think, because of his mobility and range advantage. Myrrh is probably better for Final. Chapters 17, 19, 20... not so much. Whereas Dozla has an additional 5 chapters of use under his belt. Clearly, Dozla is much better than Myrrh.

[Radiant Dragon]

How good is he in those chapters, though? I question Dozla being much more useful than Myrrh in Chapter 16, since they're both going to fall behind fairly quickly.

[Anouleth]

How good is he in those chapters, though?

Not very. How useful are Dozla and Myrrh in any of their chapters? Not very. Such is the lot of characters that should be relegated to Low or Lower Mid tier.

I question Dozla being much more useful than Myrrh in Chapter 16, since they're both going to fall behind fairly quickly.

I guess that's true.

[dondon151]

Flight at 5 movement is almost worthless. It's certainly much worse than a typical 6 move unit in Chapter 16 and 18, and you could make a good case for it being worse in Chapter 20 and Final.

Myrrh has 6 move.

[Anouleth]

Myrrh has 6 move.

Really? Er, my mistake. I don't think I've ever actually used Myrrh before, to be honest.

If that's the case, then she does have a case against Dozla. She ignores the small amount of terrain in Chapter 18 and is much easier to rescue-drop. I still don't think it's as important as Dozla's midgame, but that's just me.

[-Cynthia-]

Vanessa gets OHKOed by Beran for a long time (until level 19). Even if she isn't OHKOed, there are Wyvern Knights and Fleets that can also hurt her.

I also mentioned Cormag who you're...ignoring for some reason. I don't know where you're getting OHKOs from either, Beran only has 30 effective Mt with the Longbow, Vanessa stops getting OHKOd by that at like level 12. I wasn't suggesting we have Tana try and take Longbow shots or anything.

Ephraim needs to be level 18 with a Speedwing to double Beran. That's a pretty high level.

What? Beran has 13 AS with the Longbow. Ephraim has 15 AS more often than not at level 12+2 from the Speedwing= 17 AS. I don't know why he'd need 19 AS, which is what he has at Level 18+ Speedwing.

I am not suggesting that we wait out the map. However, in my opinion, the most effective strategy is to use Duessel with either the Silver Axe or the Halberd to kill Beran. While it is slower, it is not as absurdly risky as having Vanessa try to tank bow shots, or Ephraim try to land 15 hit rates.

Ephraim doesn't have to land 15 hit rates, because as I said before, the AI prioritizes hitting things that can't counter rather than reaver bonuses. Duessel can't double Beran and the hit rates are worse (though I guess you can manipulate him into using the Lancereaver).

Edited June 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

While we're on the topic of Dozla, the dude's money in C12 Eir. You only have access to 2 fliers at this point, which limits your effectiveness at taking out baels. By virtue of being able to climb up mountains, Dozla's already shaving off at least a turn here. Moreover, his combat is not half bad.

He boats impressive concrete durability with 43 hp/11 def.

Baels 4HKO

Revenants do 2 damage (lol)

Gargoyles do 4 damage (11HKO)

Mogalls do 5 damage (9HKO)

And so on. The only enemy that doubles him in C12 is a mauthe dog, but with 11 atk it's a double tink. Even tougher enemies like Tarvos and Entombed don't scare him (6HKO). Oh yeah, when he's in the mountains he has 62 avo, that's more than what people like Seth and Vanessa can pull.

Offensively, he doubles more than you'd expect. Revenants, baels and mogalls are slow as molasses (3-6 spd), and he can double the steel axe tarvos. With 29 atk he 2HKOes anything with a pulse. Just to give you an example of how hard he hits, he does 22/28 damage to a gargoyle (79% damage/hit). Whatever he touches is finger food for the rest of your army. Even better, he has a display crit of 20, so roughly 1/5th of the time he'll be doing 100% damage instead of ~80% (or whatever ridiculous amount it is). Hell, he can even 2HKO at range.

Obviously he's not so special for long-term use (though I suspect he's still underestimated), but there's no denying he rules in C12. I'm sure someone's going to point out "but Seth/Franz/Saleh/Gerik are already 1RKOing like machines". True, but it's a rout map, and even with that many key units you still have to spread out your firepower as much as possible, and again, Dozla has that key terrain advantage that lets him take out Baels (aka turn wasters) sooner than anything without wings.

[dondon151]

Dozla's accuracy against baels when both are on peaks leave something to be desired.

[Anouleth]

I also mentioned Cormag who you're...ignoring for some reason. I don't know where you're getting OHKOs from either, Beran only has 30 effective Mt with the Longbow, Vanessa stops getting OHKOd by that at like level 12. I wasn't suggesting we have Tana try and take Longbow shots or anything.

Cormag gets doubled and ORKOed, and there's the difficulty of recruiting Cormag early in the first place.

Beran actually has 31 effective mt, I was looking at Iron Bow mt for some reason. Vanessa needs to be around level 14 or 15. But even if she survives that, there's still a Fleet that can finish her off.

What? Beran has 13 AS with the Longbow. Ephraim has 15 AS more often than not at level 12+2 from the Speedwing= 17 AS. I don't know why he'd need 19 AS, which is what he has at Level 18+ Speedwing.

Beran has 15 speed on Hard Mode. I forgot that the Longbow weighed Beran down.

Ephraim has 15AS more often than not. Well, good for him. I was just thinking that what this absurd strategy needed was an even higher change of failure.

Ephraim doesn't have to land 15 hit rates, because as I said before, the AI prioritizes hitting things that can't counter rather than reaver bonuses. Duessel can't double Beran and the hit rates are worse (though I guess you can manipulate him into using the Lancereaver).

Duessel doesn't double Beran, but neither does Ephraim unless you get him 12 levels over the course of three chapters and a Speedwing that is otherwise completely useless for Ephraim. Vanessa definitely doesn't double with a Horseslayer.

In addition, if Ephraim is reduced to low HP by... the large number of enemies in Beran's area (for example, he's in Cormag's range), Beran will certainly target him in an effort to kill him. Ephraim needs to be level 20 just to not be at risk of dying if Cormag crits him, let alone all the other enemies.