Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Vykan12]

Dozla's accuracy against baels when both are on peaks leave something to be desired.

Indeed, he pulls 35 display hit with a battle axe. Using an iron axe brings that up to 50 hit, but then he 3HKOes now.

In 2 rounds he has a 31.25% chance to kill, in 3 he has a 64.06% chance, in 4 I'd imagine it goes above 80%. This is all before factoring in crit. Now I suppose 4 rounds of combat sounds like a lot, but that's only 2 turns really (2 player phase + 2 enemy phase). I guess the problem is Dozla only has 1 move in the mountains just like baels, so your fliers really need to be preoccupied, and you can't have any units who can take out the bael at 2 range.

[Randoman]

I hope it's not too awkward that I'm bringing up Artur and Lute again randomly.

Anyways, about them moving down to upper mid, that makes sense to me seeing how they're outclassed by Forde's movement and Weapon Triangle coverage without being promoted and Moulder's staff utility. They probably both belong either right above or below Saleh in Eirika's route, and right above Natasha in Ephraim's route. And since there's quite a lot of evidence and people agreeing on it during the first few pages, we should put Artur above Lute.

I'm also for Garcia and Gilliam switching places.

[Rewjeo]

Switching Gilliam with Garcia, dropping Artur and Lute to the top of Upper Mid. There hasn't been discussion much beyond that, and there has been some opposition to Artur>Lute, so that's all I'm doing for now.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Gilliam still needs to drop. His movement hinders him greatly, he's got shit combat in his first two full chapters (if he'll be seeing any), and he easily falls behind when you have Franz, who has better combat, and Vanessa, who dodges like a pro and flies everywhere. And when Kyle, Forde, and Ephraim join, he's outclassed by five units all with the same weapon as him.

[Psych]

Why is Moulder above Natasha? His magic sucks and he gets like a max of 8 range with Warp if that. She comes a few chapters later, but not enough to matter, since he's got like 1 staff and isn't going to be massively leveling. She also has a horse option, something he doesn't/ He might have better supports than her though, but Joshua is quick with her, Gilliam and Colm might like him and all the others come too late or are mounted.

[Rewjeo]

He has a higher base staff rank, and healing is more helpful in those few chapters than any point after Natasha joins. And neither of there staff ranges are all that impressive. In fact, at 10/1, both have 9 MAG. Moulder should be at a higher level than her, too. She has one more MOV, though.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

He also has two levels above her, which, with staff usage, is crucial. Not to mention he could pull off another level before Natasha joins (takes ten heals without entering any battles, doable in three chapters).

[grandjackal]

Let's also not forget he's got 3 chapters of healing EXP plus a higher base level than her (lvl 3 base compared to her 1), meaning he gets to promotion first. He will be undoubtedly be promoting first.

Even considering, she won't necessarily be better at combat either. Worse durability, only 5 or 6 con meaning she will get weighed down by 2 or 3 with Shine, rendering her speed down to 9 as either class (Moulder can wield Divine and still have more AS). Her one only real advantage is that when she promotes, she has the choice of a horse.

C rank also lets Moulder level up faster sooner. Using early Restores to heal random poison, abusing Barrier, getting to higher rank faster means faster Physic, etc.

Basically Moulder's just a better version of Natasha who comes earlier, but Natasha later has a horse.

EDIT: Dammit, semi-ninja'd

Edited June 28, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Rewjeo]

Neither of them should ever enter combat, but Moulder will actually WIN in magic at times, in fact all the time until after promotion, and he is closer to higher level staffs like Physic and Warp. Compare, say, 10/1 Moulder to 6/0 Natasha. 8.8 MAG to her 5. He will also have B staves to her C, maybe still D.

Would anyone object to Gilliam in, like, Low Tier?

Edited June 28, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Anouleth]

Neither of them should ever enter combat, but Moulder will actually WIN in magic at times, in fact all the time until after promotion, and he is closer to higher level staffs like Physic and Warp. Compare, say, 10/1 Moulder to 6/0 Natasha. 8.8 MAG to her 5. He will also have B staves to her C, maybe still D.

It's impossible for Natasha to have D Staves at level 6. She reaches C Staves at level 3.20 maximum and probably earlier because of Mend and Torch. At level 5 she will probably have B Staves (he'll likely have A).

Would anyone object to Gilliam in, like, Low Tier?

No.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

What if Dozla uses secret book, would that make his hit better?

I suggest Tana moving up 1 tier for flight which is helpful in many situations like ch.15 or getting to that rapier on 9A

Edited June 28, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Jaybee]

That's like an additional 4 hit.

Aka no.

I'd honestly say Gills to Lower Mid below Neimi, but ehh. Not sure if he should even be below Neimi.

Edited June 28, 2011 by JBCWKitty

[Jaybee]

remove this

Edited June 28, 2011 by JBCWKitty

[Anouleth]

That's like an additional 4 hit.

Aka no.

So having 74 hit is not better than having 70 hit? I mean, the Secret Book isn't exactly a hotly contested item (although I'd rather give it to Duessel).

[Radiant Dragon]

I'd honestly say Gills to Lower Mid below Neimi, but ehh. Not sure if he should even be below Neimi.

I don't see Gilliam below Neimi. He's bad, but not that bad.

So having 74 hit is not better than having 70 hit? I mean, the Secret Book isn't exactly a hotly contested item (although I'd rather give it to Duessel).

I'd rather sell it, personally. Lets us buy more Killers/Reavers/Silvers later.

[Rewjeo]

And does anyone feel like Neimi isn't a Low Tier unit, too?

[Anouleth]

I don't see Gilliam below Neimi. He's bad, but not that bad.

And Neimi is? Neimi at least has a mount on promotion. I can certainly see Gilliam below Knoll or Syrene.

I'd rather sell it, personally. Lets us buy more Killers/Reavers/Silvers later.

By the time those weapons are available you have S Rank weapons. Secret Book fixes accuracy issues vs bosses (such as Orson or Vigarde or Beran) and when fighting at 1-2 range.

[Darros]

And does anyone feel like Neimi isn't a Low Tier unit, too?

Neimi should be a bottom tier unit. She has to level

9 times in order to get a player phase, and she's not even that great.

[Radiant Dragon]

I can certainly see Gilliam below Knoll or Syrene.

Me too.

Secret Book fixes accuracy issues vs bosses (such as Orson or Vigarde or Beran) and when fighting at 1-2 range.

+4 hit does not 'fix' accuracy issues.

Neimi should be a bottom tier unit. She has to level

9 times in order to get a player phase, and she's not even that great.

Neimi isn't bad solely because she's an Archer. She's bad because she has bad bases and a low starting level in addition to not being able to get experience as quickly as other units due to being Bow-locked.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Rewjeo]

And Neimi is? Neimi at least has a mount on promotion. I can certainly see Gilliam below Knoll or Syrene.

Technically, Gilliam does, too. And I feel like he has an easier time reaching promotion, if only because of he needs less EXP than her. He also has 1-2 range and WTC on promotion.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Technically, Gilliam does, too. And I feel like he has an easier time reaching promotion, if only because of he needs less EXP than her. He also has 1-2 range and WTC on promotion.

How long will that take? He has to fight Franz, Kyle, and Forde for a promotion item, because they can all get 8 move and run all over the map. Gilliam is fourth in line for a Knight Crest, and when will that even be?

[dondon151]

+4 hit does not 'fix' accuracy issues.

Wishing for an item that brings hit from like 60 to 100 is a bit too much. There's not much reason to sell the Secret Book; the player gets more than enough money to buy a copious amount of equipment anyway. Even I, who religiously sells Secret Books, chose not to in my playthrough.

If +4 hit raises displayed hit from 60 to 64, it raises true hit by about 6%. A 31.6% chance to miss becomes a 25.6% chance to miss - a marked improvement.

+2 skl is a shitty boost, but I can't emphasize enough how every increment of hit matters if it's applied often enough. The one thing that was making me angry about Zealot more often than Marcus was that Zealot had 7 less hit at base and would miss enemies in situations where Marcus wouldn't.

[Rewjeo]

How long will that take? He has to fight Franz, Kyle, and Forde for a promotion item, because they can all get 8 move and run all over the map. Gilliam is fourth in line for a Knight Crest, and when will that even be?

Further, a team isn't chosen randomly. If two units compete for resources and fill the same role, then the player won't use both of them. And the reverse is true, as well: if two units benefit from both being in play at the same time, then the player will usually use both if he/she uses one.

These rules exist for a reason. I don't want discussion stifled because a Lower Mid unit is a Lower Mid unit.

[Salad Utensil]

How long will that take? He has to fight Franz, Kyle, and Forde for a promotion item, because they can all get 8 move and run all over the map. Gilliam is fourth in line for a Knight Crest, and when will that even be?

Well, Gilliam is kinda-sorta necessary to get a low turn count in chapter 1-4 and he is forced in chapters 1-3 and can get a few kills. Admittedly they would be better spent going to someone else, but he does contribute positively and is kinda-sorta necessary for clearing a chapter quickly even if it just rescue chaining. Whereas Neimi is never really necessary for anything.

The first knight's crest going to Gilliam may seem unlikely, but it is still a consideration since it makes him significantly better with +2 move (and he stops getting doubled by everything) and Franz/Forde/Kyle may want to take advantage of their good growths and not promote at level 10. In Eirika route the first chapter is a route map and I can't think of anyone durable enough to be clear the south end of the map besides Seth (who doesn't exist) or an early promoted paladin or great knight (and remember Gilliam's base level is higher than Franz's with worse growths).

I still think Gilliam is better than Ross at least...

Edited June 29, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[RNG Princess]

Neimi should be a bottom tier unit. She has to level

9 times in order to get a player phase, and she's not even that great.

I don't agree with this, she joins early enough where she has several chapters of free deployment and has automatic support with Colm raising accuracy, attack and critical iirc. She also starts with D in bows which at least gives her the opportunity to use steel bow on enemies she can't double, Amelia and Ewan are stuck at E for their respective weapons and join a lot later. On a No-Seth team I'm sure Neimi's early game chipping is appreciated.

Technically, Gilliam does, too. And I feel like he has an easier time reaching promotion, if only because of he needs less EXP than her. He also has 1-2 range and WTC on promotion.

Gilliam has to compete for the Knight Crest, Neimi has the advantage over him because Orion's Bolt is hers.

He has 4.8 speed at 10/1 she has 11.4 speed at 10/1 he only beats her in str, hp, and def she beats him everywhere else and has better move.

Oh nvm that I forgot promotion bonuses ^^'

Edited June 29, 2011 by Queen_Elincia