Why all the hate for SS?

[Anouleth]

I was being a little facetious with that description, but it is true that a good many (probably the majority) of branching class choices are no-brainers. In fact, why not make a comprehensive list, just to know for sure?

Recruit -> Knight / Cavalier ; A sword and extra movement versus, uh, nothing.

Knight -> General / Great Knight ; Both have complete weapon dominance, and GK has extra movement compared to the General's low-activation, low-use skill.

Cavalier -> Great Knight / Paladin ; Axes are nice, but unnecessary, and two movement is just too sweet to pass up.

Like I said, if you disregard that efficient play relies overwhelmingly on movement, many of these promotions are quite balanced. General gives better promotion bonuses than Great Knight, Great Knight gives better promotion bonuses than Paladin, and Knight gives better promotion bonuses than Cavalier (E Swords is also pretty crap).

Pirate -> Warrior / Berserker ; An additional weapon type is always more practical than a meager crit. bonus, particularly when that weapon is effective against fliers.

E Bows are useless. Ross should be capable of ORKOing all flying enemies without need to recourse to a bow. If nothing else he can use the Dragon Axe. This also has the huge advantage of letting him fight on enemy phase. Berserker also gets +1 speed, which is really the most important thing.

Thief -> Assassin / Rogue ; Lockpicks aren't exactly hard to come by, which is the only advantage Rogues have going for them.

Rogues can also steal items and find desert items (which are abilities that cannot be replicated).

Pegasus Knight -> Falcon Knight / Wyvern Knight ; Swords versus a completely useless (and sometimes game-freezing) skill.

Wyvern Knight gets better promotion bonuses; specifically, Wyvern Knight F has three more CON than Falcoknight. That extra 3 speed while wielding anything heavier than an Iron Lance can come in handy: more often than being able to wield weak Iron Swords.

Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Knight / Wyvern Lord ; See above. It's worth noting that, as far as promotion gains go, this one's close, with the +1 STR/HP and +2 DEF of the WL versus the +3 SP of the WK.

It's not close at all. The SPD is far more desirable. As if Cormag would ever want to use a Steel Sword...

Pupil -> Mage / Shaman ; Dark magic is heavy and basically unusable.

Mage -> Mage Knight / Sage ; An unnecessary magic type (are dark magic users ever a threat in FE8?) versus a higher movement stat.

Gorgons are the most threatening enemy type in the game. Stone is basically instant failure for any efficient strategy, and Gorgons have such absurdly high attack power that they typically 2HKO. Druids also hit quite hard. I don't think that's as good as the movement in an efficient run, but you're wrong to describe dark magic users as unthreatening.

Shaman -> Sage / Summoner ; I personally feel that Summoners are an underrated class, but there's no denying that anima is better than Phantoms.

Really? Summons are one of the most important abilities, capable of distracting long range magic that in FE8 can be very powerful.

Monk/Priest -> Bishop / Sage ; In a game dominated by monster units, Slayer is simply too good to pass up.

Actually, the advantage of Bishop is that it gets C Staves. Sage can typically ORKO most unpromoted monsters on it's own. And there are far more human enemies in the game that need to be killed than monster enemies. An attack advantage against humans is much more useful.

Troubadour -> Mage Knight / Valkyrie ; It's a choice between one magic type and a clearly inferior alternative.

Valkyrie also gets much faster exp gain from combat, such that from killing an enemy, the Valkyrie will get 20 more experience than the Mage Knight. That translates into higher stats.

By my count, that's four fairly equal choices (one of which is a trainee choice) out of the 18 total. That doesn't exactly scream "balance," and- except in a rare number of situations- it means that the choice is all but made for the efficiency-savvy tactician.

Clearly, that's not you, since you frequently made the wrong choice, and failed to appreciate the advantages of the alternative. For a player who doesn't play for efficiency, the choice is much more difficult, and there are many people who prefer the "less efficient" promotion anyway. Are you saying that their preference is invalid because they're not playing the game efficiently enough? Are you saying that there's no point in giving a player a choice if there's a right choice and a wrong choice?

[Florete]

Pirate -> Warrior / Berserker ; An additional weapon type is always more practical than a meager crit. bonus, particularly when that weapon is effective against fliers.

Pegasus Knight -> Falcon Knight / Wyvern Knight ; Swords versus a completely useless (and sometimes game-freezing) skill.

Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Knight / Wyvern Lord ; See above. It's worth noting that, as far as promotion gains go, this one's close, with the +1 STR/HP and +2 DEF of the WL versus the +3 SP of the WK.

I disagree on these. FE8 enemies, monsters in particular, aren't so weak that the crit/Pierce are useless, and Swords/Bow aren't exactly a great alternative anyway, especially considering fliers almost always wield Lances as it is. Berserkers can also walk over Water and Peaks.

Also, by this line of reasoning, we can say that FE7 having more characters than FESS isn't a point in FE7's favor since the efficiency-savvy tactician is only going to use the select handful of clearly superior units when playing the game.

You can say the same about any FE game as far as efficiency goes. I mean, seriously? What are you even saying here?

[Anouleth]

I disagree on these. FE8 enemies, monsters in particular, aren't so weak that the crit/Pierce are useless, and Swords/Bow aren't exactly a great alternative anyway, especially considering fliers almost always wield Lances as it is. Berserkers can also walk over Water and Peaks.

You can say the same about any FE game as far as efficiency goes. I mean, seriously? What are you even saying here?

He has a point. I think it's a good thing that the game has lots of different options for different players to play the game their way. Just because a character, or a promotion path doesn't fit into efficient play doesn't mean that it's pointless or worthless.

[General Banzai]

You can say the same about any FE game as far as efficiency goes. I mean, seriously? What are you even saying here?

That's my point. I'm saying that it's stupid to say that just because one option is better than another, all we're ever gonna do is use that better option and thus it's a point against the game for having that worse option, which is what Doomguy seems to be saying with his claim that most of the branched promotions have one clear choice and that the other choice is pointless.

[Florete]

He has a point. I think it's a good thing that the game has lots of different options for different players to play the game their way. Just because a character, or a promotion path doesn't fit into efficient play doesn't mean that it's pointless or worthless.

Sure, but I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. And in any case, I like FE7's larger cast not for having more classes to choose from, but for having more actual characters to choose from. In that way, FE8's branched promotions don't really mean anything because whether she's a Bishop or a Valkyrie she's still Natasha.

That's my point. I'm saying that it's stupid to say that just because one option is better than another, all we're ever gonna do is use that better option and thus it's a point against the game for having that worse option, which is what Doomguy seems to be saying with his claim that most of the branched promotions have one clear choice and that the other choice is pointless.

Oh, well, I agree on that, then.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

Sure, but I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. And in any case, I like FE7's larger cast not for having more classes to choose from, but for having more actual characters to choose from. In that way, FE8's branched promotions don't really mean anything because whether she's a Bishop or a Valkyrie she's still Natasha.

Well there are advantages to both! A larger cast of characters might make them feel less unique or special. Or maybe someone wants to use Natasha, but in a different way.

[Florete]

Well there are advantages to both! A larger cast of characters might make them feel less unique or special. Or maybe someone wants to use Natasha, but in a different way.

That's what supports are for. Fire Emblem games have never made characters seem less unique or special just because the cast is bigger. I think the branched promotions idea in itself is great, to be honest. There's nothing wrong with it, I just feel FE8 didn't use it well because of how often you'll get just one or two characters in any given base class. Or even none if you make Ross a Fighter.

[Geriba]

Man, I haven't gotten into a good FE debate in a while. fun fun fun

Like I said, if you disregard that efficient play relies overwhelmingly on movement, many of these promotions are quite balanced. General gives better promotion bonuses than Great Knight, Great Knight gives better promotion bonuses than Paladin, and Knight gives better promotion bonuses than Cavalier (E Swords is also pretty crap).

Then what standard would you like to use? It's easy to say "this game would be balanced IF such and such"; give me some specifics.

E Bows are useless. Ross should be capable of ORKOing all flying enemies without need to recourse to a bow. If nothing else he can use the Dragon Axe. This also has the huge advantage of letting him fight on enemy phase. Berserker also gets +1 speed, which is really the most important thing.

Bottom line, bows have the occasional use, such as wyverns and when you want a long-distance option that isn't a hand axe. Still, I think I can concede this one. (Especially given Foxy's point about walking over mountains/water, which I'd forgotten about.)

Rogues can also steal items and find desert items (which are abilities that cannot be replicated).

Remember, the only unit making this choice is Colm. When you've got Rennac- and Colm won't be promoting before then- what are the benefits of another Rogue? Are there really that many stealable items? As far as the desert goes, you'll have completed that chapter before Colm promotes, and if not, you've still got Rennac by that point.

Wyvern Knight gets better promotion bonuses; specifically, Wyvern Knight F has three more CON than Falcoknight. That extra 3 speed while wielding anything heavier than an Iron Lance can come in handy: more often than being able to wield weak Iron Swords.

Interesting. I might have to give you this one too.

It's not close at all. The SPD is far more desirable. As if Cormag would ever want to use a Steel Sword...

Except that at 20/0, Cormag's got an average of 15 speed, far more than is necessary to double most every enemy at that point. That extra tankiness fits his strengths better.

Gorgons are the most threatening enemy type in the game. Stone is basically instant failure for any efficient strategy, and Gorgons have such absurdly high attack power that they typically 2HKO. Druids also hit quite hard. I don't think that's as good as the movement in an efficient run, but you're wrong to describe dark magic users as unthreatening.

It's a rare enemy type only present in a handful of chapters, and can be dealt with in a number of ways without too much hassle. "Most threatening enemy type" in FE8 still isn't saying too much.

Really? Summons are one of the most important abilities, capable of distracting long range magic that in FE8 can be very powerful.

I've never heard this before. Care to go into more detail?

Actually, the advantage of Bishop is that it gets C Staves. Sage can typically ORKO most unpromoted monsters on it's own. And there are far more human enemies in the game that need to be killed than monster enemies. An attack advantage against humans is much more useful.

Sages get C Staves? Not according to this link:

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/class_base.htm

And the reason monster-slaying is so important is that, by the time promotion rolls around for Artur and (especially) Moulder, late-mid/late game has started, a time dominated by weak human units and monster units.

Valkyrie also gets much faster exp gain from combat, such that from killing an enemy, the Valkyrie will get 20 more experience than the Mage Knight. That translates into higher stats.

Is that right? I didn't realize MK were without the experience gain. If that's the case, then the choice is still unbalanced, but tipped in favor of the Valkyrie. Thanks for the heads-up.

Clearly, that's not you, since you frequently made the wrong choice, and failed to appreciate the advantages of the alternative. For a player who doesn't play for efficiency, the choice is much more difficult, and there are many people who prefer the "less efficient" promotion anyway. Are you saying that their preference is invalid because they're not playing the game efficiently enough? Are you saying that there's no point in giving a player a choice if there's a right choice and a wrong choice?

Again, if we're not talking efficiency, what are we talking? What's the standard? And I'm perfectly willing to admit that the class selection option is nice, but that in most cases, it's just for the sake of flair.

That's my point. I'm saying that it's stupid to say that just because one option is better than another, all we're ever gonna do is use that better option and thus it's a point against the game for having that worse option, which is what Doomguy seems to be saying with his claim that most of the branched promotions have one clear choice and that the other choice is pointless.

That's not quite what I'm getting at. The branched promotions feature was touted at the game's release as the defining gameplay addition over its predecessor; for it to contain few meaningful choices makes it a low-impact addition, and one of wasted potential.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Doomguy

[Florete]

Sages get C Staves? Not according to this link:

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/class_base.htm

It's Bishops that get C staves.

Again, if we're not talking efficiency, what are we talking? What's the standard? And I'm perfectly willing to admit that the class selection option is nice, but that in most cases, it's just for the sake of flair.

I think what he means is that, while one option may generally be superior, it's usually not such a blowout that one option is way better than the other and you can't really go wrong either way.

[Geriba]

It's Bishops that get C staves.

Can you tell I'm tired yet?

I think what he means is that, while one option may generally be superior, it's usually not such a blowout that one option is way better than the other and you can't really go wrong either way.

Sure, but this is more because every unit in the game is a superhero. If you threw FE8's class system into, say, Thracia 776, the differences in class quality would become more apparent.

[Salad Utensil]

Man, I haven't gotten into a good FE debate in a while. fun fun fun

Then what standard would you like to use? It's easy to say "this game would be balanced IF such and such"; give me some specifics.

Bottom line, bows have the occasional use, such as wyverns and when you want a long-distance option that isn't a hand axe. Still, I think I can concede this one. (Especially given Foxy's point about walking over mountains/water, which I'd forgotten about.)

That's not quite what I'm getting at. The branched promotions feature was touted at the game's release as the defining gameplay addition over its predecessor; for it to contain few meaningful choices makes it a low-impact addition, and one of wasted potential.

It's funny, I used to think games were just for fun until I realized they were actually serious business; why does there even need to be a standard since an individual's criterion is based upon subjective personal preferences. Suppose people don't play for efficiency and may prefer a class for it's caps for post-game, want to experiment around a bit, or prefer to promote a character in a way that would fit his/her personality.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Geriba]

It's funny, I used to think games were just for fun until I realized they were actually serious business; why does there even need to be a standard since an individual's criterion is based upon subjective personal preferences. Suppose people don't play for efficiency and may prefer a class for it's caps for post-game or prefer to promote a character in a way that would fit his/her personality.

Without a standard, it's impossible to determine unit quality- which, in turn, makes it impossible to determine how well-made or "balanced" an sRPG truly is. If you want to play a game for fun, variety, personality, etc., no one should tell you otherwise; we're just trying to analyze strategy games from a more objective position.

[Anouleth]

Then what standard would you like to lose? It's easy to say "this game would be balanced IF such and such"; give me some specifics.

If you're a player that isn't focused on getting low turncounts. I would be understandable if Great Knight had less weapon choice, worse stats, and worse movement than it's competition. But I think it's very arrogant of you to dismiss the advantages that Great Knight has just because they're not as useful in efficient play. Not everyone plays efficiently. Would you say that Nino shouldn't be in FE7 because she's not useful for efficient players, even though many players love using her?

Bottom line, bows have the occasional use, such as wyverns and when you want a long-distance option that isn't a hand axe. Still, I think I can concede this one.

Ross has a perfectly fine way of killing Wyverns: Axe.

Remember, the only unit making this choice is Colm. When you've got Rennac- and Colm won't be promoting before then- what are the benefits of another Rogue? Are there really that many stealable items? As far as the desert goes, you'll have completed that chapter before Colm promotes, and if not, you've still got Rennac by that point.

Why won't Colm be promoting before then? In an efficient playthrough, Colm would never promote. As a result, we have to consider what an inefficient player might do... which is anything. And they might very well like the idea of not having to drag around a sub-standard combatant in order to steal stuff.

Except that at 20/0, Cormag's got an average of 15 speed, far more than is necessary to double most every enemy at that point. That extra tankiness fits his strengths better.

In an efficient playthrough, Cormag will never reach 20/0.

I've never heard this before. Care to go into more detail?

Tethys is OHKOed by basically every siege tome user in the game except for Eclipse tome users, and there are many regular enemies that also OHKO her. Most regular units are 2HKOed by Gorgons (who climb as high as 40 magic attack), and Dracozombies also do huge amounts of damage. Enemy AI is designed to always prioritise killing Summons even when another unit can be attacked.

There are other advantages, such as Summons acting as basically a 6 range attack in any direction and Summons being able to contribute to Rescue-dropping (bizarrely, Summons can be Given units, they can Take them, and they can Drop them, but they can't use the Rescue command to pick them up in the first place).

Sages get C Staves? Not according to this link:

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/class_base.htm

It's a good thing that I said that Bishops get C Staves, then. C Staves, crucially, gives access to Barrier which gives high WEXP and can be used at any time as long as another character is in range. They're also buyable in Secret Shops. C Staves is therefore vital to building B and A staff ranks which are needed for Warp and Rescue. C Staves also gives Restore access.

And the reason monster-slaying is so important is that, by the time promotion rolls around for Artur and (especially) Moulder, late-mid/late game has started, a time dominated by weak human units and monster units.

I promote Artur or Lute in Chapter 11, so I don't know what you're talking about. Moulder I promoted in Chapter 14. That leaves them with four and three monster-fighting chapters left in the game compared to ~7 human fighting ones. In addition human enemies are usually a lot harder to kill than monsters. And Chapter 18 is almost entirely filled with Eggs who Sages can kill just as well as Bishops.

Is that right? I didn't realize MK were without the experience gain. If that's the case, then the choice is still unbalanced, but tipped in favor of the Valkyrie. Thanks for the heads-up.

I don't know. There are advantages both to the higher attack power that MK gives, and to the higher levelling that Valkyrie gives. I don't think that either path is clearly better.

Again, if we're not talking efficiency, what are we talking? What's the standard? And I'm perfectly willing to admit that the class selection option is nice, but that in most cases, it's just for the sake of flair.

Is being able to pick characters "just for the sake of flair"? How about picking pairings (for FE4) and supports? How about distributing stat boosters, or skills, or BEXP? I mean apparently we're just going to use the most efficient option anyway, so perhaps the game should just remove all this choice. I mean, a player might very well (and they often do) pick the wrong choice from an efficient perspective because they believe it to be superior. And for their purposes, it very well might be. Falcoknight's superior durability might be more attractive than Wyvern Knight's superior offense. I don't think it's right to say that these choices are pointless, or just for variety, when a player might very rationally choose one or the other, depending on how they want to play the game.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[Geriba]

If you're a player that isn't focused on getting low turncounts. I would be understandable if Great Knight had less weapon choice, worse stats, and worse movement than it's competition. But I think it's very arrogant of you to dismiss the advantages that Great Knight has just because they're not as useful in efficient play. Not everyone plays efficiently. Would you say that Nino shouldn't be in FE7 because she's not useful for efficient players, even though many players love using her?

Nino certainly has use in ranked runs (experience rank). And no, I wouldn't dismiss GK off-hand simply for not being useful in efficiency plays; however, for the branched class choice to have substance beyond "flair" and "variety," you'd need to give me an agreed-upon standard.

Why won't Colm be promoting before then? In an efficient playthrough, Colm would never promote. As a result, we have to consider what an inefficient player might do... which is anything. And they might very well like the idea of not having to drag around a sub-standard combatant in order to steal stuff.

Why isn't Colm promoting?

In an efficient playthrough, Cormag will never reach 20/0.

Again, not an expert in FE8 runs. Why is this?

Tethys is OHKOed by basically every siege tome user in the game except for Eclipse tome users, and there are many regular enemies that also OHKO her. Most regular units are 2HKOed by Gorgons (who climb as high as 40 magic attack), and Dracozombies also do huge amounts of damage. Enemy AI is designed to always prioritise killing Summons even when another unit can be attacked.

Is that true about the priority? Summoners would have way more use than I imagined if that's the case.

It's a good thing that I said that Bishops get C Staves, then. C Staves, crucially, gives access to Barrier which gives high WEXP and can be used at any time as long as another character is in range. They're also buyable in Secret Shops. C Staves is therefore vital to building B and A staff ranks which are needed for Warp and Rescue. C Staves also gives Restore access.

Yeah, I acknowledged this slip-up. My mistake.

I promote Artur or Lute in Chapter 11, so I don't know what you're talking about. Moulder I promoted in Chapter 14. That leaves them with four and three monster-fighting chapters left in the game compared to ~7 human fighting ones. In addition human enemies are usually a lot harder to kill than monsters. And Chapter 18 is almost entirely filled with Eggs who Sages can kill just as well as Bishops.

Chapter 14 sounds about right for Moulder; Chapter 11 sounds early for Artur, especially since Lute will be getting the priority. I haven't looked at the enemy stats in a while, but from what I remember, the monster chapters were much more problematic than the human ones. But I'll take your word for it.

I don't know. There are advantages both to the higher attack power that MK gives, and to the higher levelling that Valkyrie gives. I don't think that either path is clearly better.

Sorry, but I just can't see this happening. Experience boosts are very important, as additional levels are more important than modest advantages in magic type. For example, who would you take all other things being equal: a 20/5 MK, or a 20/10 Valkyrie?

Is being able to pick characters "just for the sake of flair"? How about picking pairings (for FE4) and supports? How about distributing stat boosters, or skills, or BEXP? I mean apparently we're just going to use the most efficient option anyway, so perhaps the game should just remove all this choice.

Look, there's a difference between encouraging new ways to play, and variety simply for the sake of variety.

Still, you've done a good job defending FE8's promotion choices on the whole, and it's clear that I wasn't giving the game enough credit. Still a couple of wonky branches in the bunch, but pretty balanced on the whole.

[Salad Utensil]

Nino certainly has use in ranked runs (experience rank). And no, I wouldn't dismiss GK off-hand simply for not being useful in efficiency plays; however, for the branched class choice to have substance beyond "flair" and "variety," you'd need to give me an agreed-upon standard.

Why isn't Colm promoting?

His combat is mediocre and the experience it takes for him to reach promotion would be better funneled toward a unit with better combat stats and gets kills easier. Like say Joshua...

Colm can still do things like steal, open doors/chests, and find desert objects unpromoted.

Again, not an expert in FE8 runs. Why is this?

You might need the promotion gains earlier rather than later in order to complete some low turn strategies and it's not like Cormag gains a level every time he kills something.

Chapter 14 sounds about right for Moulder; Chapter 11 sounds early for Artur, especially since Lute will be getting the priority. I haven't looked at the enemy stats in a while, but from what I remember, the monster chapters were much more problematic than the human ones. But I'll take your word for it.

Whether Artur or Lute gets prior is up to the player and what he/she wants or needs for his/her team. Monster chapters might just be tougher because they tend to route maps?

Sorry, but I just can't see this happening. Experience boosts are very important, as additional levels are more important than modest advantages in magic type. For example, who would you take all other things being equal: a 20/5 MK, or a 20/10 Valkyrie?

Most of L'Arachel's experience is coming from staves anyway since her combat is really mediocre if promoted at level 10 and the boost isn't THAT high...

Edited August 10, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Geriba]

His combat is mediocre and the experience it takes for him to reach promotion would be better funneled toward a unit with better combat stats and gets kills easier. Like say Joshua...

Colm can still do things like steal, open doors/chests, and find desert objects unpromoted.

You might need the promotion gains earlier rather than later in order to complete some low turn strategies and it's not like Cormag gains a level every time he kills something.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Whether Artur or Lute gets prior is up to the player and what he/she wants or needs for his/her team. Monster chapters might just be tougher because they tend to route maps?

Definitely a possibility.

Most of L'Arachel's experience is coming from staves anyway since her combat is really mediocre if promoted at level 10 and the boost isn't THAT high...

That only makes the experience boost more important, since L'Arachel isn't so concerned with her magic type thanks to low offensive potential.

[Anouleth]

Nino certainly has use in ranked runs (experience rank). And no, I wouldn't dismiss GK off-hand simply for not being useful in efficiency plays; however, for the branched class choice to have substance beyond "flair" and "variety," you'd need to give me an agreed-upon standard.

Why do I need to give an agreed upon standard? Different players use different standards, and different promotions meet those standards.

Why isn't Colm promoting?

He's just not a worthwhile combatant. Simple as.

Again, not an expert in FE8 runs. Why is this?

Cormag wants to promote quite soon to get the good promotion bonuses from Wyvern Knight, and the +1 movement.

Chapter 14 sounds about right for Moulder; Chapter 11 sounds early for Artur, especially since Lute will be getting the priority.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Artur and Lute want to promote ASAP since their combat is poor and it lets them focus on using staves, which is more useful. Lute's mount is also quite useful. There is not really such a thing as priority since you're probably not going to use both. It's enough of a pain to train one.

This is assuming you're not using Seth by the way. If you are using Seth neither of them will promote since it is impossible to train them when chapters are completed so fast.

I haven't looked at the enemy stats in a while, but from what I remember, the monster chapters were much more problematic than the human ones. But I'll take your word for it.

Well in efficient play, Artur does not really see much combat later in the game and is used more for his staves. The same applies for Moulder. The last time where they might have combat duties are the Chapter 15 and 17 Routs.

Sorry, but I just can't see this happening. Experience boosts are very important, as additional levels are more important than modest advantages in magic type. For example, who would you take all other things being equal: a 20/5 MK, or a 20/10 Valkyrie?

In order for Valkyrie to have a five level lead over MK, L'arachel would need to kill 25 enemies, which does not seem likely to me given how late she would promote and how mediocre her combat is.

Look, there's a difference between encouraging new ways to play, and variety simply for the sake of variety.

It's not about encouraging new ways to play. It's about letting the player play in the way they want to. And I don't think that the promotion branches in FE8 are a case of variety for the sake of variety. If anything they should have provided more choice, perhaps with triple promotion branches.

[General Banzai]

I think the fact that you guys are able to argue like this over which class is better means that there isn't "one obvious choice for every promotion path", even in efficient play.

You get to pick the class that suits you. Maybe dark magic is heavy and not very good. But it has cool animations and its tomes have cool effects, so that's a reason to use it. Maybe you don't like the Mage Knight sprites, so you use Sage even though it's not as good (that's what I do, at least).

Honestly though, from a gameplay standpoint I don't think FESS and FE7 are much different, at least not in overall quality. FESS has less characters but still has variety with the class choices. FESS is shorter but makes up for it by having two completely different routes and the Tower/Ruins. And other than that they're pretty similar. It's all the same mechanics and weapons and such.

[Florete]

To be honest, I don't like the Mage Knight sprite much myself and have chosen against it for that very reason.

I am perfectly willing to admit that part of the reason FE7 is likely seen as better is because it came first. I do think it's a better game overall despite that for various reasons, but I'd be lying if I said I don't also enjoy Sacred Stones. I've had plenty of time playing and re-playing it and doing all manner of things in the Creature Campaign, including unlocking Lyon and using the RNG trick to get lots of Swiftsoles.

If FE8 had a bigger cast I think it would hold up much better. Branched promotions is awesome and I think they did quite well as far as balancing it goes, but it feels wasted on a game with so few characters to actually make use of it. I'm not saying the option is a point against it, but I find it difficult to really use it as a point in the game's favor.

[Geriba]

Honestly though, from a gameplay standpoint I don't think FESS and FE7 are much different, at least not in overall quality. FESS has less characters but still has variety with the class choices. FESS is shorter but makes up for it by having two completely different routes and the Tower/Ruins. And other than that they're pretty similar. It's all the same mechanics and weapons and such.

The complete lack of difficulty and absence of a proper rating system really hurt FE8 compared to its predecessor. And regarding chapters, even when you exclude Lyn's Mode, 7 has 36 unique maps compared to 8's 30.

[Rewjeo]

The complete lack of difficulty and absence of a proper rating system really hurt FE8 compared to its predecessor. And regarding chapters, even when you exclude Lyn's Mode, 7 has 36 unique maps compared to 8's 30.

I forgot about FE7's ranking system until I read this. That tells you how much I care about it having one.

[Anouleth]

The complete lack of difficulty and absence of a proper rating system really hurt FE8 compared to its predecessor.

Except that it doesn't have a complete lack of difficulty.

And regarding chapters, even when you exclude Lyn's Mode, 7 has 36 unique maps compared to 8's 30.

20 Chapters

+ Prologue

+ Both Final maps

+ 5x

8 Tower Maps

8 Ruins Maps

Apparently, 20+3+8+8 = 30.

[Geriba]

Except that it doesn't have a complete lack of difficulty.

Of course it does. You have to go out of your way to make the game remotely difficult, i.e. purposefully not use Seth, not use the Tower, etc.

20 Chapters

+ Prologue

+ Both Final maps

+ 5x

8 Tower Maps

8 Ruins Maps

Apparently, 20+3+8+8 = 30.

Obviously, I was talking about the main campaign. People will differ on the importance of optional maps.

[Anouleth]

Of course it does. You have to go out of your way to make the game remotely difficult, i.e. purposefully not use Seth, not use the Tower, etc.

If anything, using the Tower is more out of the way than not using the Tower, since it is optional.

Obviously, I was talking about the main campaign. People will differ on the importance of optional maps.

If you don't count optional maps, then FE7 only has 24 maps (since the Lyn Mode and Hector Mode and Gaiden maps are all optional) to FE8's 30. 34 if you don't count Lyn Mode as optional. You said there were 36. And even if optional maps are not as important, FE8 has a lot more. You're counting the Ephraim and Eirika versions of Chapter 15 and 16 as different maps. What about all the skirmish maps, of which there are nine? All in all, FE8 has 25 optional maps. So FE8 ties FE7 in terms of required content (24 maps versus 24 maps) and wins in terms of optional content unless you include Lyn's mode in required content.

[Florete]

If you don't count optional maps, then FE7 only has 24 maps (since the Lyn Mode and Hector Mode and Gaiden maps are all optional) to FE8's 30. 34 if you don't count Lyn Mode as optional. You said there were 36. And even if optional maps are not as important, FE8 has a lot more. You're counting the Ephraim and Eirika versions of Chapter 15 and 16 as different maps. What about all the skirmish maps, of which there are nine? All in all, FE8 has 25 optional maps. So FE8 ties FE7 in terms of required content (24 maps versus 24 maps) and wins in terms of optional content unless you include Lyn's mode in required content.

Lyn mode is forced on a first run, so it technically isn't optional. And if Hector mode won't be counted, only one of Eirika/Ephraim should be counted since you only need to beat one to officially beat the game. FE8 easily wins in terms of optional content, though.