[FE8] The Decision...... Draft

[Radiant Dragon]

I do think that if all drafters perform evenly, the teams with Vanessa and Franz will be the top 2 teams. Thats why i proposed the idea of adjusting the draft order to give them a weaker supporting cast.

Franz and Vanessa don't need a good supporting cast.

[Hawk King]

They need some sort of help. You cant solo the entire game with just Franz or Vanessa and expect to win.

I know they dont NEED good supporting casts but as it stands, they DO have good supporting casts, thats why i think they should have their supporting casts weaken.

[Integrity]

They need some sort of help. You cant solo the entire game with just Franz or Vanessa and expect to win.

I know they dont NEED good supporting casts but as it stands, they DO have good supporting casts, thats why i think they should have their supporting casts weaken.

I soloed the entire game with Vanessa and Eirika (and vague support from a shitty Tana and a worse Moulder, but almost anybody could have filled those slots) and lost to Horace by ...how many turns again? He had a full team of decent to good units.

EDIT: And I'm STILL not buying the "oh you picked your skill back up in that failed run" line, k.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Integrity

[Radiant Dragon]

They need some sort of help. You cant solo the entire game with just Franz or Vanessa and expect to win.

A weak supporting cast is not the same thing as no supporting cast. I just knew someone was going to try to Strawman that statement...

I know they dont NEED good supporting casts but as it stands, they DO have good supporting casts, thats why i think they should have their supporting casts weaken.

And changing the draft order is not the way to fix it. Not that I'm saying banning Franz and/or Vanessa is either, but the point of a snake draft is that it's fair for all players. Nothing should change that.

[eclipse]

Hmmm. . .I'd like to wait for Horace to finish his experimental Franz run first. I'm getting an idea. . .

[Junkhead]

Ever thought how things would change if characters were used with their average stats? I think luck is sometimes factored.

[General Horace]

I'm back, will finish the run today. Expecting to crush my last count with a strength screwed Franz. I'm 13 turns ahead already.

Chapter 11 - 7/74 Turns

Having Garcia and promoted Forde is better than having unpromoted Forde and Franz on this map. I want a Knight crest now. Franz went up the middle and killed everything, Marisa sat on a forest and killed the reinforcements, and the rest picked up kills where they could.

SALEH

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika      14.31    25   7   14    20  12    7    3   A Sword
Saleh    ??/01.00    30  16   18    14  11    8   13   A Anima B Light C Staff
Franz    17/09.35    41  15   17    22  10   18    7   S Lance B Sword
Forde       14.50    32  10   13    10  11    8    2   B Lance D Sword
Innes    ??/02.53    32  14   14    15  14   10    9   A Bow
Tethys      02.14    19   1    2    13  11    5    5   Dancer
Marisa      09.41    26   7   15    15  11    4    3   D Sword

Edited August 28, 2011 by General_Horace

[Hawk King]

A snake draft isnt fair when there are only 2 units worthy of a 1st round pick.

RK,

you agree that the 7th round should be reversed but also reversing the 3rd and 5th rounds is too much? You say something should change but you disagree with my suggestion. Do you have any bright ideas?

If no characters should be banned and the draft order should remain the standard snake style, what can be done to create more balance? The only thing left would be making Seth free for all, but that would be stupid because everyone would have identically low turns for all the early chapters, and Vanessa's value would sky-rocket while Franz' would greatly fall.

Is there some way to make the other units better? Does anyone else have any ideas?

[Integrity]

Look, kid, just because yours is the *only* idea that's been voiced doesn't make it a *good* idea by default.

And if I recall, sir, you're the only person who has advocated not banning the characters in question. So why are you assuming that that's not the solution?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

I don't want Franz or Vanessa to be banned either.

[Integrity]

I don't want Franz or Vanessa to be banned either.

You'd not said that before this, Soul dear.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Integrity

[General Horace]

Interrupting all this debating with an update:

Chapter 12 - 8/82 Turns

Same as last time, except insert Franz where Garcia was. Marisa is an Assassin.

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika      14.56    25   7   14    20  12    7    3   A Sword
Saleh    ??/03.00    31  16   19    15  12    8   15   A Anima B Light C Staff
Franz    17/11.50    43  15   18    24  10   19    7   S Lance B Sword
Forde       15.49    33  11   13    11  12    8    2   B Lance D Sword
Innes    ??/02.91    32  14   14    15  14   10    9   A Bow
Tethys      02.94    19   1    2    13  11    5    5   Dancer
Marisa   10/01.00    29   8   17    17  11    6    4   C Sword
Dolza    ??/02.56    44  17   11     9   4   11    7   B Axe

[Hawk King]

Look kid, I happen to be 2 years and 4 days older than you. So show some respect to your elders dammit!! (I mean no offense by this, im just having fun)

RK said he doesnt agree with banning them either.

I really think my idea would balance things out alot more than everyone thinks. It is at least worth an experiment, right?

[General Horace]

Look kid, I happen to be 2 years and 4 days older than you. So show some respect to your elders dammit!! (I mean no offense by this, im just having fun)

RK said he doesnt agree with banning them either.

I really think my idea would balance things out alot more than everyone thinks. It is at least worth an experiment, right?

While it's worth a try, I know Franz and some third/fourth round pick with half decent combat (or Eirika for that matter) will still stomp this game. Can't say for Nessie because I haven't used her recently.

If you do try it, I would participate though.

Edited August 28, 2011 by General_Horace

[Radiant Dragon]

RK said he doesnt agree with banning them either.

I'm not really sure where I stand with regards to banning them. I'd rather not, but if it's necessary then that's what we'll have to do.

I really think my idea would balance things out alot more than everyone thinks. It is at least worth an experiment, right?

Except it doesn't. Franz or Vanessa + scrub support will still be too good to beat, even if the other two teams have better scrubs. The Franz and Vanessa teams will lose maybe a turn on Rout maps, if that.

I've been toying with the idea of free Franz and banned Vanessa for a while, but I don't know if I actually like that idea.

[General Horace]

Chapter 13 - 2/84 Turns

Franz Heavy Speared Aias. He also got Ewan's energy ring prior to the chapter.

Forde promoted in the chapter 14 base.

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika      15.14    25   7   15    20  12    8    3   A Sword
Saleh    ??/03.54    31  16   19    15  12    8   15   A Anima B Light C Staff
Franz    17/12.34    44  18   18    24  10   20    7   S Lance B Sword
Forde    15/01.00    35  12   14    12  12   10    3   B Lance C Sword
Innes    ??/03.03    33  15   15    16  15   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      03.04    20   1    2    13  12    5    6   Dancer
Marisa   10/01.33    29   8   17    17  11    6    4   C Sword
Dolza    ??/02.77    44  17   11     9   4   11    7   B Axe

Why does Forde still suck :/

Chapter 14 - 8/92 Turns

This time, I needed no lucky crit for the 8 turn. Franz doubled Carlyle with Silver (and did ended up critting him, on turn 7) so the bosskill was no problem. Innes fetched me an Energy Ring to feed Franz, and it helped having two ponies to ferry Eirika and Tethys around. Saleh kept up somehow. Marisa looted the chests with a lockpick. Dolza killed cavs.

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika      15.97    25   7   15    20  12    8    3   A Sword
Saleh    ??/04.68    32  17   19    16  13    8   15   S Anima B Light C Staff
Franz    17/13.22    44  20   19    24  10   20    8   S Lance B Sword
Forde    15/01.51    35  12   14    12  12   10    3   B Lance C Sword
Innes    ??/03.82    33  15   15    16  15   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      03.84    20   1    2    13  12    5    6   Dancer
Marisa   10/01.78    29   8   17    17  11    6    4   C Sword
Dolza    ??/03.21    45  18   11     9   4   12    7   B Axe

Edited August 28, 2011 by General_Horace

[Integrity]

I really think my idea would balance things out alot more than everyone thinks. It is at least worth an experiment, right?

If you think it's worth an experiment, by all means go and do it. I'm willing to eat my words graciously if your solution turns out to fix everything.

Everything you need to host a draft is in your hands.

[General Horace]

Chapter 15 - 5/97 Turns

Franz did nothing extra, Saleh just critted two of the Rangers, the only enemies he didn't double, so the chapter ended early. Saleh Excalabur'd Valter, and Franz Steel Sword'd Calleach, who oddly enough hit him three times at hittrates of 21, 34, and 34.

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika      16.39    25   7   15    20  13    8    3   A Sword
Saleh    ??/08.91    34  18   21    18  14   11   17   S Anima B Light C Staff
Franz    17/14.59    45  20   19    24  10   20    9   S Lance A Sword
Forde    15/01.94    35  12   14    12  12   10    3   A Lance C Sword
Innes    ??/04.25    34  15   15    16  16   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      04.34    21   1    2    14  13    6    7   Dancer
Marisa   10/02.77    29   8   17    17  12    6    5   C Sword
Dolza    ??/03.92    45  18   11     9   4   12    7   A Axe

DOLZA YOU NEED GARM BRO

Chapter 16 - 6/103 Turns

This was actually ridiculously easy with Franz. Tethys got the boots. Franz and Saleh killed Orson. Eirika was fed a kill off one of the Heroes. Marisa silenced an enemy swordmaster. Myrhh got quite a bit of exp.

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika   17/01.00    30  10   18    21  14   11    9   S Sword
Ephraim  15/01.00    36  13   18    21  15   14   10   B Lance
Saleh    ??/10.79    35  19   21    19  16   12   17   S Anima B Light B Staff
Franz    17/15.47    46  20   19    24  10   20    9   S Lance A Sword
Forde    15/02.29    36  13   14    12  13   10    3   A Lance C Sword
Innes    ??/04.61    34  15   15    16  16   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      04.94    21   1    2    14  13    6    7   Dancer
Marisa   10/03.91    30   8   18    18  12    6    5   C Sword
Dolza    ??/04.27    46  19   11    10   4   12    7   A Axe
Myrhh       04.49    20  18   16     8   4   22   28   Dragonstones

It appears both twins are strength screwed.

Chapter 17 - 3/106 Turns

Forgot this one. Oops.

Standard three turn clear. Franz 4HKO'd Lyon with Silver.

Chapter 18 - 7/113 Turns

Pallystomp and Mounted Lord Stomp. Saleh killed things with Purge.

Forgot stats.

Chapter 19 - 2/115 Turns

Same as before, except Franz killed Riev.

U

NIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika   17/02.32    31  11   18    21  14   11    9   S Sword
Ephraim  15/03.01    38  13   20    23  16   16   12   B Lance
Saleh    ??/14.89    37  21   24    20  17   13   17   S Anima A Light A Staff
Franz    17/18.34    49  20   23    24  10   21   11   S Lance A Sword
Forde    15/03.23    37  14   14    12  13   11    3   A Lance B Sword
Innes    ??/05.64    35  15   15    16  16   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      05.54    22   2    2    14  13    6    7   Dancer
Marisa   10/05.45    32  10   20    20  12    6    5   C Sword
Dolza    ??/06.24    48  21   11    11   4   14    8   A Axe
Myrhh       08.56    24  22   20     8   4   26   32   Dragonstones

Chapter 20 - 3+4/121 Turns

Syrene penalty, Franz killed Morva, because Saleh was OHKO'd.

Final Part 1 - 3/125 Turns

Franz + Myrhh killed Lyon, Forde was not sacrificed to a dracozombie, as he could take one hit this time around.

Final Part 2 - 1/126 Turns

Saleh + Eprhaim + Franz + Tethys + Saleh again = win

UNIT        LEVEL    HP  STR  SKL  SPD  LCK  DEF  RES  WEP LVL             SUPPORT
Eirika   17/03.08    31  11   18    21  14   11    9   S Sword
Ephraim  15/06.34    38  16   22    22  16   18   12   A Lance
Saleh    ??/19.01    40  23   26    21  17   15   18   S Anima A Light A Staff
Franz    17/20.00    50  20   23    24  10   22   13   S Lance A Sword
Forde    15/07.90    41  16   18    12  15   15    3   S Lance B Sword
Innes    ??/07.09    36  15   15    16  16   10    9   S Bow
Tethys      07.01    24   2    2    16  16    6    7   Dancer
Marisa   10/08.00    36  12   21    22  12    6    7   B Sword
Dolza    ??/07.34    49  22   11    11   4   14    8   S Axe
Myrhh    Didn't record :/

Marisa had more strength than Eirika, who also lost in every single stat to her brother. Franz was strength screwed by 6 points, and defence blessed by 5 points.

Franz is broken. I beat my old turncount by a whopping 18 turns.

Edited August 30, 2011 by General_Horace

[eclipse]

Alright, random ideas. Since I don't draft for FE8, laugh as you will.

1. Would banning lord rescue for Franz/Vanessa help the situation?

2. What about delaying promotion for those two until you get both twins? Or do they break things so early that it doesn't matter?

[Whitefang]

Alright, random ideas. Since I don't draft for FE8, laugh as you will.

1. Would banning lord rescue for Franz/Vanessa help the situation?

2. What about delaying promotion for those two until you get both twins? Or do they break things so early that it doesn't matter?

I also don't draft for FE8, but it's fairly short, so how about these suggestions?

3. Require a Tower Clear, and add those turns to the total. (No retreating once you enter until you clear the entire tower). You could also possibly do a Ruins clear after defeating the Demon King.

4. Allow/Force skirmishes as though they were gaiden chapters in the other games. (For example you could allow one skirmish after a certain chapter, but all others must be retreated from).

5. Franz and Vanessa both free or both given a penalty for being used. Alternatively you could have a pool of (Seth?), Franz and Vanessa, and each drafter could use one but not the rest.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Whitefang

[Integrity]

I'll give an early morning thought on each of those five.

1: That's actually not a terrible idea, to be honest. Vanessa's most broken point is C7, where she just ferries Eirika straight over the river, no questions asked. I'd amend it to banning Lord rescue for Nessie/Franz before Chapter 9, eh?

2: Their brokenness is primarily early. The later promotion would hurt them, but it wouldn't address the problem - it would just be an arbitrary handicap.

3: There's been some talk of Tower Clears and other related shit in other drafts, if I recall. The problem with that is that Franz and Vanessa are still among the top units FOR those clears, and also that I don't think it makes much sense.

4: Darros did something of the sort in That One Draft. Skirmishes are such lucrative XP, though, so I'm not entirely sure how fond I am of it. It might go some ways towards equalizing draftees rather than blanket handicapping Franz and Vanessa - and maybe that's what we need to look at. I'll dwell on this and wait for RD and my new rival to put some thoughts down.

5: What's the difference between this and just banning them, really?

I'd focus on 1 and 4 as solutions to maybe try.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Integrity

[Whitefang]

5: What's the difference between this and just banning them, really?

It's probably not the solution, but the idea is that if they have a penalty, then they won't get as many growths, and the other characters (the draft picks) will quickly outpace them. Their only use, therefore, would be as early rescue/rout help (if their help outweighs the standard penalty per map.) This would make them quickly become less desirable to later units who will be more effective.

[Integrity]

Hm. Okay, I see the point - but I think your other was much more solid.

[eclipse]

1. I'm not sure how the particulars of that would work out, but I noticed a lot of "Franz/Vanessa carrying Eirika somewhere" in the earlier chapters.

2. I remember seeing a comment by The Great Integrity involving a reset because of a missed Elysian Whip, so I wasn't sure if Franz had that same "problem".

[Integrity]

2. I remember seeing a comment by The Great Integrity involving a reset because of a missed Elysian Whip, so I wasn't sure if Franz had that same "problem".

Heh. Fair point. On the other hand, by that point your supporting cast (if you didn't fuck up like I did) is showing up (Kyle/Forde/Duessel/etc) or getting to promotion time themselves (given that I promoted LUTE of all people in C9, yeah.) so a regular team wouldn't be as handicapped as I was.