Multiple tier list idea

[Lilmik11]

I disagree on Zihark being above Jill. Jill saves turns in both sections of 1-6, 1-7, 1-E, and 3-12; Zihark just doesn't really do much at all.

I agree with you. Zihark does not fly and he's like a inferior Sothe, who can't forge ranged weapons. He may have Earth affinity, but it won't be useful until at least part 3 because it takes time to build. Jill can fly and even though her bases aren't spectacular, she will grow into a very good unit while Zihark is good then mediocre. I think being mediocre then good>being good then mediocre.

[Lord Raven]

already done

I think being mediocre then good>being good then mediocre.

Erm... don't they cancel out?

As for Ilyana v Leonardo, I've just heard the stat crunching behind her post 1-2 performance... but the thing is that Ilyana is pretty much mediocre after 1-3, whereas Leonardo is helpful in 1-1, 1-2, and 3-6.

[RNG Princess]

Here's the 5 turn strategy with Fiona deployed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo-f3LH4oN8

The video was made on Normal mode but its just to demonstrate the strategy, and I don't have a 1-7 HM save but if requested i'll be willing to make one. It shouldn't affect the strategy anyway. There is a slight things I was missing like I usually have Sothe trade Tormod a thunder forge so Tormod will kill the mage on the ledge and have Muarim go up, and I was missing the pure water to feed Volug.

[aku chi]

I disagree on Zihark being above Jill. Jill saves turns in both sections of 1-6, 1-7, 1-E, and 3-12; Zihark just doesn't really do much at all.

What does Jill do in 1-E that Vika couldn't do, only better? And while Jill can contribute more than Zihark in 1-6-2, it's due to rescue-dropping, which she must share credit for. I suppose the 1-7 utility you're refering to is due to rescue-ferrying Micaiah? This is a pretty small contribution and it isn't even unique to Jill (Fiona can rescue-canto Micaiah and hand her off to Volug or something). Jill's contributions elsewhere depend on her getting a substantial cache of resources, which imposes steep opportunity costs.

Zihark, meanwhile, can be quite helpful in 1-6-1, 1-8, and 3-12 without many resources. He's also slightly helpful in 1-6-2, 1-7, and 3-6.

Jill can fly and even though her bases aren't spectacular, she will grow into a very good unit while Zihark is good then mediocre. I think being mediocre then good>being good then mediocre.

Don't forget that this tier list doesn't cover Jill's part 4 contributions which are, admittedly, superior to Zihark's.

Edited August 7, 2011 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

No, he's right. She can also snip off Pegs in 1-6-1 if she needs to. Your argument actually makes it seem like no transfer jill kinda blows, by the way... And Rescue dropping is a very good point in favor of Jill because it turns a like 6-7 turn into a 3 turn or something ridiculous like that.

Just because Fiona can also do it doesn't mean Jill is any less adept at doing it. Jill and Zihark's performance in 1-7 isn't all that different to begin with despite Zihark having much higher stats. Same with 1-E. If anything, Jill's rescue dropping makes up for the fact that she doesn't exist in 1-8.

Also thank you Queen_Elincia (err... kitty?), hero among man.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[RNG Princess]

You're welcome I'm glad to show that Fiona can have a use before P3.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

Your argument actually makes it seem like no transfer jill kinda blows, by the way...

No transfer Jill does kinda blow without an Energy Ring and Seraph Robe, though. Also, Sothe can 2 turn 1-6-2 by himself after being shoved once, so I don't know what 'rescue dropping' utility Jill has here.

[RNG Princess]

No transfer Jill does kinda blow without an Energy Ring and Seraph Robe, though. Also, Sothe can 2 turn 1-6-2 by himself after being shoved once, so I don't know what 'rescue dropping' utility Jill has here.

Theres another tactic where Jill can rescue/drop Tauroneo in 2 turns iirc, and its safer too I think. Its an alternate version of Sothe+Adept. I personally prefer using Sothe's because Jill can gain some CEXP that way ^^'

Edited August 7, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Anouleth]

What does Jill do in 1-E that Vika couldn't do, only better?

Vika needs to spend time transforming and does not have the weight necessary to pick up the Black Knight even while transformed. Ultimately you want to have two flying rescue-droppers anyway, because that allows you to both pick up and drop Rafiel in the same turn.

[aku chi]

No, he's right. He can also snip off Pegs in 1-6-1 if he needs to. Your argument actually makes it seem like no transfer jill kinda blows, by the way... And Rescue dropping is a very good point in favor of Jill because it turns a like 5 turn into a 3 turn or something ridiculous like that.

Just because Fiona can also do it doesn't mean Jill is any less adept at doing it. Jill and Zihark's performance in 1-7 isn't all that different to begin with despite Zihark having much higher stats. Same with 1-E. If anything, Jill's rescue dropping makes up for the fact that she doesn't exist in 1-7.

Jill (N)'s combat does kinda blow without resources. 11 Str isn't impressing anyone at this stage (Nolan had more at base 5 chapters earlier!). I believe 1-6-2 can be cleared in 3 turns without a Jill rescue drop (or Tauroneo). And for a 2-turn Tauroneo drop strategy, Jill needs to be sealed to canto away to safety - which impedes her growth.

As for "Jill and Zihark's performance in 1-7 isn't all that different to begin with despite Zihark having much higher stats", obviously the "much higher stats" allow Zihark to ORKO more and survive more, but Zihark also has 1 more move than Jill (unless she's been sealed) and has can shove.

Vika needs to spend time transforming and does not have the weight necessary to pick up the Black Knight even while transformed. Ultimately you want to have two flying rescue-droppers anyway, because that allows you to both pick up and drop Rafiel in the same turn.

Can't Nailah ferry the Black Knight? And we only need one canto rescuer to rescue/take/drop Rafiel forward: Volug or Muarim can perform the take/dropping. I can give Jill some credit for being able to ferry the Black Knight and/or Rafiel, but it hardly seems like unique utility.

Edited August 7, 2011 by aku chi

[RNG Princess]

I've done that rescue drop with Tauro and I don't remember sealing her then.

[Florete]

No transfer Jill does kinda blow without an Energy Ring and Seraph Robe, though. Also, Sothe can 2 turn 1-6-2 by himself after being shoved once, so I don't know what 'rescue dropping' utility Jill has here.

Dropping Tauroneo is a 100% clear while Shoving Sothe still relies on critical or Adept. And he has to live, though his chance of death shouldn't be too high.

[aku chi]

Why is Laura below Leonardo? Was my argument (reposted for convenience) in some way unconvincing?

Laura should at least be tiered above Leonardo. Her healing effectively allows Nolan or Sothe an extra player-phase action whenever they're injured enough to need to use a Vulnerary (quite often). I'd take an extra player phase from Nolan or Sothe over a player phase from Leonardo or Ilyana anyday. And the potshotters don't have enough of a durability advantage over Laura for that to be relevant - they must all be protected. Whether or not Laura's healing is more valuable than Edward's early utility or Tormod and Vika's good few chapters is harder to evaluate.

[dondon151]

What does Jill do in 1-E that Vika couldn't do, only better?

Vika needs 2 turns to transform and is only 1 unit.

And while Jill can contribute more than Zihark in 1-6-2, it's due to rescue-dropping, which she must share credit for. I suppose the 1-7 utility you're refering to is due to rescue-ferrying Micaiah? This is a pretty small contribution and it isn't even unique to Jill (Fiona can rescue-canto Micaiah and hand her off to Volug or something). Jill's contributions elsewhere depend on her getting a substantial cache of resources, which imposes steep opportunity costs.

Zihark, meanwhile, can be quite helpful in 1-6-1, 1-8, and 3-12 without many resources. He's also slightly helpful in 1-6-2, 1-7, and 3-6.

Let me tell you exactly what Zihark does that's unique.

Oh, that's right. Absolutely nothing.

[Lord Raven]

Why is Laura below Leonardo? Was my argument (reposted for convenience) in some way unconvincing?

In which chapters does this apply? In 1-2 Nolan would be fine given a couple Vulneraries. Sothe actually almost never needs healing, and when she goes up to the frontlines to heal she gets mauled very quickly.

The only scenario in which your argument would apply is if Laura healed at the beginning of the turn, then the character moves and attacks. Sadly, this is not always what you want to do, because that in itself is a very situational scenario that I'm not sure even exists. QE (do you mind if I call you that, Queen_Elincia?) had Micaiah use Sacrifice instead of Laura healing, and I guess it's a scenario like that which it applies. But even that shows up extremely rarely. The only other situation is that you heal after the attack -- in which case you're opening up Laura, and that's another scenario that sorta shows up extremely rarely if you're going for low turncounts. I'm not sure how that outweighs anything Leonardo does or is doing.

[Anouleth]

The only scenario in which your argument would apply is if Laura healed at the beginning of the turn, then the character moves and attacks. Sadly, this is not always what you want to do, because that in itself is a very situational scenario that I'm not sure even exists.

Uh, why? A character gets hit on enemy phase or takes damage or whatever, and you want them to move forward (and maybe attack something that will counter-attack them). So you heal them. Why is this situational? You are making it sound like we are never ever going to need to heal our units.

[aku chi]

Let me tell you exactly what Zihark does that's unique.

Oh, that's right. Absolutely nothing.

Oh, so we tier based on how unique a unit is, now? Nasir to top tier!

The only scenario in which your argument would apply is if Laura healed at the beginning of the turn, then the character moves and attacks. Sadly, this is not always what you want to do, because that in itself is a very situational scenario that I'm not sure even exists. QE (do you mind if I call you that, Queen_Elincia?) had Micaiah use Sacrifice instead of Laura healing, and I guess it's a scenario like that which it applies. But even that shows up extremely rarely. The only other situation is that you heal after the attack -- in which case you're opening up Laura, and that's another scenario that sorta shows up extremely rarely if you're going for low turncounts. I'm not sure how that outweighs anything Leonardo does or is doing.

Anouleth already covered this. It is quite common that Nolan or Sothe need healing. If Laura (or Micaiah) isn't used, they need to waste a turn using a Vulnerary instead of attacking. Or, they can't safely attack unless they are healed afterwards (by Laura). Healing with Laura increases the number of player phase attacks from Nolan and Sothe, which are always more valuable than the player phase attacks of Leonardo or Ilyana. And if Laura can't heal from a safe position, then Leonardo can't attack from a safe position, so the durability argument holds no water in this comparison. The durability argument is even in favor of Laura in Part 3 because she can heal from a distance with Physic, if needed. Leonardo must be close to enemies to attack.

[dondon151]

Oh, so we tier based on how unique a unit is, now? Nasir to top tier!

Do you look at your arguments before your respond to those of others?

[Lord Raven]

And if Laura can't heal from a safe position, then Leonardo can't attack from a safe position, so the durability argument holds no water in this comparison.

I'd like to put on the record that I'm arguing in favor of Leonardo for 1-1, 1-2, and 3-6; every other chapter he doesn't have much utility at all beyond shoving.

Uh, why? A character gets hit on enemy phase or takes damage or whatever, and you want them to move forward (and maybe attack something that will counter-attack them). So you heal them. Why is this situational? You are making it sound like we are never ever going to need to heal our units.

Erm my question was more of "is this absolutely necessary" than "you never need to heal but it's still somewhat situational." It's only necessary in few situations from my standpoint, and in 3-6 it *could* help but Leonardo's chipping isn't even that big a help past the initial stages of the chapter, not unlike Laura's healing (seeing as Laura's healing isn't convenient for her to do by that point either).

When does Sothe even need healing early on that he can't do with a Vulnerary? Generally he'll be rushing ahead quite quickly that Laura will not be able to reach him at all. Nolan's role isn't that much different from Sothe's in this regard, but the question stands about "is this necessary" and "does this apply all the time"?

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Erm my question was more of "is this absolutely necessary" than "you never need to heal but it's still somewhat situational." It's only necessary in few situations from my standpoint, and in 3-6 it *could* help but Leonardo's chipping isn't even that big a help past the initial stages of the chapter, not unlike Laura's healing (seeing as Laura's healing isn't convenient for her to do by that point either).

Very few things in this game are absolutely necessary, in my experience.

When does Sothe even need healing early on that he can't do with a Vulnerary? Generally he'll be rushing ahead quite quickly that Laura will not be able to reach him at all.

He doesn't but we are not going to be using Sothe alone to complete levels. Nolan will need healing and Edward will definitely need healing. If Aran is going to fight he will need healing. Laura is capable of keeping up with these people. In Part 3 all characters want to be healed because laguz.

Nolan's role isn't that much different from Sothe's in this regard, but the question stands about "is this necessary" and "does this apply all the time"?

No. You do not need to heal all the time. But most utility does not have to come into play every turn in order to be considered useful. Nolan does not have to fight enemies every turn of every chapter to consider it useful.

[Lord Raven]

Before we continue, what are you arguing in favor of exactly?

[aku chi]

Laura's healing is obviously not impressing you (it really doesn't need to do much to beat Leonardo's contributions), so consider this: Laura is the only unit that can put Ike to sleep in 3-13, which makes safely killing him and ending the chapter much easier.

[Lilmik11]

Very few things in this game are absolutely necessary, in my experience.

He doesn't but we are not going to be using Sothe alone to complete levels. Nolan will need healing and Edward will definitely need healing. If Aran is going to fight he will need healing. Laura is capable of keeping up with these people. In Part 3 all characters want to be healed because laguz.

No. You do not need to heal all the time. But most utility does not have to come into play every turn in order to be considered useful. Nolan does not have to fight enemies every turn of every chapter to consider it useful.

IMO, Leonardo>Laura. Laura's only utility is healing, which can be replaced by a vulnerary. In my experience, her low move makes it hard for her to reach units that are in the frontlines. Her durability sucks. Leo's too, but at least he doesn't need to promote to attack enemies. Laura is only useful in part 1, and even then she's not irreplaceable. Micaiah can sacrifice in part 1, which can help her get into Resolve or Wrath state, and then she becomes a killing machine.Come part 3, Micaiah completely outclass her as a healer, and she can still attack. OK, Leo's not irreplaceable either, but at least he can contribute in 1-P,1-1,1-2 and 1-3 by shaving a few turns there. Can Laura shave turns? No. In fact, she only ads turns because she needs protection to not get killed. Even in part 3, he does some chips, that are also very safe, since he never misses.

Edit:OK, I agree, Laura can put Ike to sleep, but my question: Is she able to at base(With the staff rank to use the Sleep Staff, of course)? It helps, but once again,I don't think it overweights Leo's contribution.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Lord Raven]

Laura's healing is obviously not impressing you (it really doesn't need to do much to beat Leonardo's contributions), so consider this: Laura is the only unit that can put Ike to sleep in 3-13, which makes safely killing him and ending the chapter much easier.

Well the problem with that is... the laguz absolutely maul her before she has any ability to do that.

With 8 base mag she has 1~4 range... she can't do anything with ranged healing from base level. If we inject like 6 lvls of BEXP into her + 2 levels from healing (i'm being pretty generous in your favor), that leaves her at 1~8 which is still not nearly enough. She can't put Ike to sleep until the last turn when he moves.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Laura requires tremendous amounts of BEXP and staff abuse to be able to Sleep Ike and not get obliterated by any of the Laguz that exist in the chapter. For a quick clear, yes, we may want to consider giving her said BEXP, and maybe in that case she'll have some use in 4-3 with the desert, utilizing full range (and possibly Celerity?) and Physic/Restore use is never a bad thing. Beyond that, though, Laura's pretty useless. Once Micaiah promotes she automatically becomes a better staff user who can use Physic right off the bat, which is important for 3-6 if Jill's going to be flying off on her own and hacking shit with the Brave Axe, or Nolan/Eddie who are abusing the Beastfoe scroll on the east side of the map. Laura by that time can probably also use Physic as well, but beyond that she becomes relatively useless.