Multiple tier list idea

[Zanarkin]

if anything, Leonardo/Mic combining kills things.

Except they are like ~5 points short.

[Anouleth]

Except they are like ~5 points short.

That's generous. Leonardo does something like 6-8 damage in 1-1 and Micaiah does like 9 damage per hit. So Leonardo doesn't even 3HKO.

[Lord Raven]

Edward does something like 6-8 damage as well.

Edward can't double in 1-1. Edward needs 14 AS to double consistently and he doesn't have that until Level 7. Edward and Leonardo have exactly the same offensive parameters except Leonardo doesn't risk counterattack; granted, Leonardo sucks, but that's why he's as low as he is. I'm contemplating placing him at the top of low, a full tier below Laura, but at the same time he helps Edward with kills, especially on an enemy that Nolan has weakened.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Zanarkin]

Edward does something like 6-8 damage as well.

Edward can't double in 1-1.

He can if he got a speed lvl up in 1-P IIRC. Which is likely with a 60% growth and the fact that he is getting almost every kill there.

[Lord Raven]

Oh sorry, 1-1 has 9 spd enemies, he can't double in 1-2 though. And even then, that helps him gang up on enemies with Leonardo and Micaiah effectively... and Edward's higher than Leo anyway because Edward can do better potshotting, but Leonardo *still* helps with chipping, and 6 + 6x2 + 9 damage = him, Micaiah, and Edward can gang up on enemies and kill them.

[Zanarkin]

Great now we need 3 Squares, 2 of which must be not be reached.

[Lord Raven]

Umm... it's perfectly possible to position them the right way in 1-1. it's quite easy, in fact; not like you're using leo/ed past the first half of the chapter anyway.

[-Cynthia-]

Part 2 seems to have the most issues.

Top tier- What makes Elincia a Top tier unit? 2-P is mostly irrelevant, which just leaves her 2-E. She's helpful there, but not as helpful as say, Brom in 2-1.

Haar- See above, though he's a bit better for an early 2-E clear.

How is there not a significant difference between Nephenee(T) and Nephenee(N) for Part 2? I could go into more details here, but long story short Nephenee(T)>Brom>Nephenee(N) is probably the correct order. Lucia should probably be between Brom and Nephenee(N). Brom is too important for clearing 2-1 in comparison to Lucia's 2-2 /Neph(N) to be below them and he's roughly comparable to Neph(N) for 2-2 as well.

The difference between Marcia(T) and Marcia(N) is irrelevant for 2-P and 2-E really (since we can't clear 2-P faster and Marcia's combat in 2-E doesn't matter too much). They should probably be combined.

Heather can net us the Dracoshield, acts like a Torch/can chip for a bit in 2-2, and Calill can Meteor the Energy Drop guy/finish off Ludveck. I don't think these contributions are tiers below what Marcia does in 2-E.

Makalov is not worse than Astrid for 2-3 and 3-9, he should be right under Danved. Calill should be above Astrid as well.

For the Part 3 list, Kyza is probably too high. Soren/Rolf's chip in 3-P/3-1 should outweigh all of what he does, since they don't take up a slot while doing it at least.

[Zanarkin]

Umm... it's perfectly possible to position them the right way in 1-1. it's quite easy, in fact; not like you're using leo/ed past the first half of the chapter anyway.

Hmm... 1-1, thats it? So all Leo has is 1-2 attacks chipping and then he's useless. While Fiona, Meg (eh won't argue for her), Laura, Vika, Aran, Ilyana have more utility than that.

Fiona has Rescue utility, Laura has healing, Aran has some 1-2 Range with his Javelin, Ilyana can be awesome at chipping in 1-3/1-4 and probably from ledges in 1-5. Vika can fly and sto annoying Dracos and ferry Rafiel up the ledges allowing for a 6 turns.

But of course, Leo is clearly better because he is chipping once or twice. Lol

[Lord Raven]

I placed Elincia there simply because of the concept of a potential 1-turn clear with her, same with Haar being in Top. But it's hard to compare that to like Neph/Lucia's usefulness, as well as Brom's usefulness, and god knows what else. The best we can do is split up part 2 into like 5 different tier lists LOL or scrap it entirely because of just how specific Part 2 tends to be about how to play. CRKs probably don't even deserve their own list either. What do you think, Cynthia?

The other thought I had was scrapping 2-P from the list entirely simply because of how little that chapter matters.'

I wanna hear more on Makalov's position.

This is how I re-arranged at any rate:

Top

Leanne

High

Nephenee (T)

Brom

Nephenee

Lucia

Nealuchi

Lethe

Mordecai

Haar

Elincia

Heather

Mid

Marcia

Bottom

Calill

Calill is Bottom simply because she does absolutely nothing, because 2-E is a 1-turn clear no matter what ends up happening. Same reason why CRKs aren't tiered here.

Hmm... 1-1, thats it? So all Leo has is 1-2 attacks chipping and then he's useless. While Fiona, Meg (eh won't argue for her), Laura, Vika, Aran, Ilyana have more utility than that.

Fiona has Rescue utility, Laura has healing, Aran has some 1-2 Range with his Javelin, Ilyana can be awesome at chipping in 1-3/1-4 and probably from ledges in 1-5. Vika can fly and sto annoying Dracos and ferry Rafiel up the ledges allowing for a 6 turns.

But of course, Leo is clearly better because he is chipping once or twice. Lol

QE posted a low-turn analysis of what exactly Leonardo is doing everywhere he has the potential to be deployed. I suggest you read that before continuing.

Javelin's also really inaccurate and Aran himself has less availability than Leonardo. Steel Bow Leonardo and Javelin Aran have similar damage output (Leonardo is winning here, in fact) anyway, and Ilyana is still gone for all of Part 3 on top of their chip pretty much evening out once 1-6 rolls around. In fact, Leo can off Pegasus in 1-6, Ilyana only has like 1-8 Wyverns that Vika 2RKOs anyway (though there is one that comes from the south that she can double team with another unit assuming Tormod hasn't already killed it off).

Fiona rescues in two chapters and chips in one other chapter, Laura's healing isn't all that its hyped up to be, and Vika should be higher than she is and I put her pretty low because everyone else kept telling me to.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Zanarkin]

I've been playing HM up to 1-7 and here's my take on Leo:

Leo's chipping is really useful in 1-1, he can take a counter from the javelin soldier and allow Miccy to kill him (since she cant survive him) Nolan can heal himself to help him last longer. He's also good at chipping other things like the boss to feed Nolan the boss kill. Alright I'll give you that.

1-2 he can chip here and there or ferry/shove Laura. He can shove Laura, but we could risk not getting all treasures.

1-3 his chipping sucks in this map so I'd rather him shove someone around but he was still helpful, him shoving Laura helped her get more people healed. Other people can shove here. Hes not that special really.

1-4 not so good of a chipper but he was helpful at finding a coin or trading the chest key to Meg(who traded it to Eddie for the robe), he also got the pure water. Not needed here at all.

1-5 His chipping is finally back in action here. Ilyana also out classes him here though. Plus its defend and we have ledges so we don't need chipping here.

1-6 He's a good shove bot here in both 1-6-1 and 1-6-2, I had him shove Sothe and then Meg rescue him to keep him safe(1-6-2). Meg can shove bot here as well. We could leave him base and have meg shove sothe. All he can do is kill a peg knigth but those are easily kill by Tauroneo on EP.

1-7 same as 1-6, good shove bot. again others can shove bot.

and then he returns for his chipping back in Part 3 ^_^' what chipping, a few measly points isn't doing much and we aren't giving him beastfoe. His lughnasabath isn't used very well since he isn't going to be doubling anyway and other DB members are way better and don't need this chipping to low turn this..

Ilyana was more helpful than Leo though once she was recruited (especially in 1-4 and 1-5), but his availability in DB chapters means he's helpful for longer so I can understand why he's higher than her. Leo does nothing to low turn on Part 3 in fact i'd consider him a hindrance since he does nothing.

stuff in bold are mine.

Leo's chipping is only good for like 2 chapters and he isn't even necessary for low turns in 1 of these chapters.

Edited August 7, 2011 by SlayerX

[Lilmik11]

I placed Elincia there simply because of the concept of a potential 1-turn clear with her, same with Haar being in Top. But it's hard to compare that to like Neph/Lucia's usefulness, as well as Brom's usefulness, and god knows what else. The best we can do is split up part 2 into like 5 different tier lists LOL or scrap it entirely because of just how specific Part 2 tends to be about how to play. CRKs probably don't even deserve their own list either. What do you think, Cynthia?

The other thought I had was scrapping 2-P from the list entirely simply because of how little that chapter matters.'

I wanna hear more on Makalov's position.

This is how I re-arranged at any rate:

Top

Leanne

High

Nephenee (T)

Brom

Nephenee

Lucia

Nealuchi

Lethe

Mordecai

Haar

Elincia

Heather

Mid

Marcia

Bottom

Calill

Calill is Bottom simply because she does absolutely nothing, because 2-E is a 1-turn clear no matter what ends up happening. Same reason why CRKs aren't tiered here.

QE posted a low-turn analysis of what exactly Leonardo is doing everywhere he has the potential to be deployed. I suggest you read that before continuing.

Javelin's also really inaccurate and Aran himself has less availability than Leonardo. Steel Bow Leonardo and Javelin Aran have similar damage output (Leonardo is winning here, in fact) anyway, and Ilyana is still gone for all of Part 3 on top of their chip pretty much evening out once 1-6 rolls around. In fact, Leo can off Pegasus in 1-6, Ilyana only has like 1-8 Wyverns that Vika 2RKOs anyway (though there is one that comes from the south that she can double team with another unit assuming Tormod hasn't already killed it off).

Fiona rescues in two chapters and chips in one other chapter, Laura's healing isn't all that its hyped up to be, and Vika should be higher than she is and I put her pretty low because everyone else kept telling me to.

I forgot a few things about Leo.His part 3 is good, like I already mentioned a few pages back. He can chip laguz in 3-6 to help your allies 1HKO or 1RKO one. He can kill Falco Knights in 3-12 pretty effectively. He can also take a ballista in 3-13 and deal some good damage. That's why, IMO, Leo>Aran. He doesn't need to be trained to help, and Aran does. That's a clear win. Anyway, Javelin Aran has sucky hit rates. His damage output isn't too impressive, either. I guess I can conceide Ilyana>Leo,Vika>Leo and maybe Laura>Leo, but I can't agree with Aran>Leo.

[Zanarkin]

I forgot a few things about Leo.His part 3 is good, like I already mentioned a few pages back. He can chip laguz in 3-6 to help your allies 1HKO or 1RKO one. He can kill Falco Knights in 3-12 pretty effectively. He can also take a ballista in 3-13 and deal some good damage. That's why, IMO, Leo>Aran. He doesn't need to be trained to help, and Aran does. That's a clear win. Anyway, Javelin Aran has sucky hit rates. His damage output isn't too impressive, either. I guess I can conceide Ilyana>Leo,Vika>Leo and maybe Laura>Leo, but I can't agree with Aran>Leo.

I can agree with your last sentence. Also, His ballistae in 3-13 isn't really happening, we have partner units and we are quickly finishing this chapter anyway. 3-6 base Leo does 12 against 12 def cats... and does 6 against tigers. He isn't helping much. Take into consideration these are the lowest defence enemies. 3-12, These falco knight don't pose too much of an emergency because again even if we don't have Leo they can be taken care of by the Partner units. you guys are overrating Leo's "chipping" too much here.

[aku chi]

As for Titania(T) vs Ike(T) we have sort of a stalemate. In fact, they're close, but the one thing that sets them apart is doubling; transfer Titania literally cannot double half the things transfer Ike can. Transfer Ike has things like Swordmasters, Warriors, Snipers that he can double whereas Titania(T) doesn't have that at all. AS of enemies starts to dwindle after the point, but frankly Titania's utility is not all that good once those chapters hit simply because a low turn clear of something like 3-2 doesn't require that much movement. 3-3 has _many_ 20 AS enemies that base Titania can't even double and LEvel 18 Titania has a 50% chance of doubling.

Ike can double many of these enemies, especially because his already maxed HP and Skl (only needs two level ups) allow him to BEXP a couple speed level ups (and he gets Str/Def in the meantime), but that doesn't really affect his doubling. With max Str, his offense is exactly on par with Titania (T) and Wind Edge takes care of anything a Hand Axe would.

Ike (T) also has a 3 Def and 13 HP advantage. That 3 Def gap is very likely to grow considering how Ike has 9 more levels before maxing and Titania's next Def gain is either at Level 20 or her +3 upon promotion. At that point, Ike still beats her in Def, and once he gets the Ragnell (3-7, right?) that gap grows wider. A 20/5 Titania has lesser offense in Part 1 (20/5 is extremely generous) than Ike with Ragnell at 20/0 (max HP/Str/Skl/Def with BEXP maxed Spd). His tranfer boosts actually place him higher than Titania (T), but not by that much.

Units Ike (T) can double that Titania (T) cannot:

- 7 units in 3-P

- 3 units in 3-1

- 2 units in 3-2 (and only if Titania hasn't proc'd Spd yet)

Starting in 3-3, Titania is likely to be at level 18, which gives her a 75% chance to double all of the 20 AS units. There's only a couple 21 AS units. 3-4 is a similar story. Then when Titania promotes, she has no trouble doubling every non-Swordmaster, non-boss enemy in Part 3. Ike's lucky if he has a Spd lead at all at this point. He certainly isn't doubling Swordmasters with any consistency.

Titania also has some other offensive advantages over Ike - Hammer access to ORKO Generals and forged Hand Axes starting in 3-7. Ike doesn't get Ragnell until 3-11, and so substantially trails Titania in 1-2 range offense in 3-8 and 3-10. Ike's defensive advantage is nice in the early GM chapters, but Titania becomes sufficiently durable post-promotion for it to be irrelevant at that point.

You obviously neglected to mention Titania's movement advantages, which are notable in 3-P, 3-3, 3-5, 3-10, and 3-E. Ike has the greater utility in 3-1 (due to durability and doubling) and 3-4 (rescue-dropped to kill the boss), but that can't offset Titania's advantages in most of the other chapters. Ike (T) wins Part 4, but Titania (T) has a pretty clear win in Part 3.

Now, Rolf and Soren... There's no way Rolf is that much lower than Soren. Absolutely no way. Rolf can one round Sages with transfer boosts in 3-P and 3-1, and he'd have grown a point or two in Speed by 3-2 or 3-3 in order to keep helping him one round. He can chip too, and not that badly either considering he'd have 27/29 atk. Soren with Fire has 28/30 atk and he is chipping for more damage, I will give you that, but 4 extra damage does not constitute the gap between them especially because Rolf(T) can actually kill something whereas Soren cannot. Soren also caps early whereas Rolf keeps on growing.

I know Soren has 1-2 range, but you wouldn't want to give him an enemy phase. He has no durability. At least Rolf with a Crossbow can provide *okay* offense (well, okay) but he has defense to back it up.

Let's try an accurate comparison, instead:

Base Soren (T) with Elwind: 31 Atk (hitting Res), 20 AS

Base Rolf (T) with Rolf's Bow: 27 Atk (hitting Def), 21 AS

Soren (T) can 2HKO almost every enemy unit in 3-P and 3-1 (only some Sages and Generals are borderline). And while he can't double much, he can pull off some very impressive ORKOs on a few Generals in 3-1. Rolf (T), meanwhile, is borderline on both doubling and 2HKOing the Sages in 3-P and 3-1 (from whom he takes terrible damage). Against the rest of the enemies, Rolf (T) is lucky to 3HKO, so to contribute to a kill he needs to be paired up with Mia or Titania instead of Oscar or Boyd, unlike Soren. Rolf does have some Ballista utility in 3-P, which is somewhat nice.

The base improves both Soren and Rolf.

Level 7 Soren (T) with forged Wind: 35.6 Atk (hitting Res), 20.7 AS

Level 3 Rolf (T) with forged Steel Bow: 35.5 Atk (hitting Def), 21.9 AS

With a Wind forge, Soren can cleanly 2HKO most every enemy in 3-2 and beyond (even the bosses). His Spd still doesn't let him double anything but the slowest Generals and Sages. Rolf gets a big boost from a forge, but he still struggles to 2HKO even the weakest physical enemies. He can cleanly 2HKO Sages and often doubles them, but he takes some serious damage in return. He otherwise fails to double any physical enemy that he can deal respectable damage to.

Let us consider what happens if we use Soren (T) and Rolf (T) in the latter Part 3 chapters. Rolf (T) can continue to grow his Str and Spd to 2HKO and double more foes, but it never gets to a consistent level like Shinon. Soren (T) does hit his caps rather early, and so needs a Master Crown around 3-8 to unlock his Spd and Mag. With it, he can finally start doubling slower enemies consistently and his durability becomes slightly better than paper-thin. Without it, he can't do much. I think Soren (T) is clearly better than Rolf (T), for being able to ORKO some of the toughest enemies (Generals), as opposed to some of the weakest enemies (Sages).

[Anouleth]

Edward does something like 6-8 damage as well.

Edward can't double in 1-1. Edward needs 14 AS to double consistently and he doesn't have that until Level 7.

He can reach level 6 if he takes every kill in 1-P. 13AS does not double everything but it doubles Fighters and it's not hard to set it up so he fights them. Edward is the person who takes on the Fighters on the RHS. Nobody else can do this if you want to move Nolan next to the Javelin Soldier on turn 1.

Edward has an enemy phase. That alone makes him better than Leonardo. Dealing twice as much damage as Leonardo, being able to set up wrathcounters are just the icing on the cake.

Edward and Leonardo have exactly the same offensive parameters except Leonardo doesn't risk counterattack; granted, Leonardo sucks, but that's why he's as low as he is. I'm contemplating placing him at the top of low, a full tier below Laura, but at the same time he helps Edward with kills, especially on an enemy that Nolan has weakened.

No, he doesn't. Leonardo cannot combine with Edward for kills unless Edward procs strength many times. Level 6 Edward cannot combine for kills with Level 4 Leonardo but he can with Level 1 Micaiah.

He certainly isn't doubling Swordmasters with any consistency.

I don't have any objections to Titania T over Ike T but Ike T can double swordmasters. He starts with HP and skill capped and is on the edge of strength and defense. BEXP easily gets him the two points he needs to double 23AS swordmasters.

Doubling SMs is treating as some sort of magnificent impossibility but it's really not that hard. If I can induce Boyd T to double Swordmasters, Ike T should be a cakewalk.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

I wanna hear more on Makalov's position.

How about this: Makalov with a Wind Edge can do anything Astrid can do. But Makalov also has better durability and better 1-range chip. And Makalov (T) can actually double a lot and is almost as good as Kieran (N).

Calill is Bottom simply because she does absolutely nothing, because 2-E is a 1-turn clear no matter what ends up happening.

That's just silly. Firstly, the 1-turn clear strategies aren't even close to 100% and so cannot be assumed off-hand to be more efficient than higher-certainty clears that take longer. Secondly, we should at least consider efficient clears that let us get some of the valuable items in this chapter. The Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Nullify are all valuable items. 2-E strategies which obtain these items should be considered. In that event, Calill is quite useful in 2-E for Meteor-bombing Ludveck for a higher-certainty clear or Meteoring the enemies which drop goodies. Heather is useful for nabbing the Dracoshield.

I don't have any objections to Titania T over Ike T but Ike T can double swordmasters. He starts with HP and skill capped and is on the edge of strength and defense. BEXP easily gets him the two points he needs to double 23AS swordmasters.

Doubling SMs is treating as some sort of magnificent impossibility but it's really not that hard. If I can induce Boyd T to double Swordmasters, Ike T should be a cakewalk.

Except there aren't many 23 AS Swordmasters. None past 3-4. And while it's possible to Bexp Ike (T) to the 28 AS needed to double some of the Swordmasters in 3-8, it isn't something that can be really counted on. It is a nice bonus if it happens, but nothing more. I have trouble seeing how Boyd (T), even with a Speedwings, could get to doubling Swordmasters...

For the Part 3 list, Kyza is probably too high. Soren/Rolf's chip in 3-P/3-1 should outweigh all of what he does, since they don't take up a slot while doing it at least.

I wouldn't want to take that logic too far, but I can agree with such a change. Upon further thought, I might want to bump Kyza, Zihark, Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd), and Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def) down to Low like so:

Lower Mid

...

Soren

Rolf

Low

Kyza

Zihark

Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def)

Brom

...

So Lower-Mid features the last units with any free deployment (well, except for the rest of Zihark's 3-7, but who cares about 3-7?). More than any other unit in Low or Bottom, I believe Kyza can be somewhat useful if deployed. He can shove like a pro with Wildheart and can actually have decent combat with some resources (Energy Drop and/or Speedwings, preferably).

Oh, and the GM tier list is missing Ilyana (T - Mag, Skl, Res). My bad. Perhaps she can find a home in Low tier near Brom?

Edited August 7, 2011 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

Units Ike (T) can double that Titania (T) cannot:

- 7 units in 3-P

- 3 units in 3-1

- 2 units in 3-2 (and only if Titania hasn't proc'd Spd yet)

Starting in 3-3, Titania is likely to be at level 18, which gives her a 75% chance to double all of the 20 AS units. There's only a couple 21 AS units. 3-4 is a similar story. Then when Titania promotes, she has no trouble doubling every non-Swordmaster, non-boss enemy in Part 3. Ike's lucky if he has a Spd lead at all at this point. He certainly isn't doubling Swordmasters with any consistency.

Ike will always have a Speed lead on Titania, he caps at 30 and his stats are plenty BEXP abusable that he can hit that. Ike(T) comes in with maxed Skill, 2 points away from capping Str, 5 away from maxing spd, 1 away from maxing HP and finally 3 away from maxing Def. He can actually BEXP 3 levels and get +1 HP, +2 Str, +3 Def, and +2 Spd (and +1 wherever the hell you want) and then get BEXP to fill his levels from there in order to max his Speed. In fact, the best way to raise Ike is to BEXP fill his levels, and his first two levels will most likely give him some boosts he'd really really like.

Titania also has some other offensive advantages over Ike - Hammer access to ORKO Generals and forged Hand Axes starting in 3-7. Ike doesn't get Ragnell until 3-11, and so substantially trails Titania in 1-2 range offense in 3-8 and 3-10. Ike's defensive advantage is nice in the early GM chapters, but Titania becomes sufficiently durable post-promotion for it to be irrelevant at that point.

Erm, Ike's defensive lead is always going to be a massive one, and Titania will never close the gap sufficiently. I repeat, she has 20.8 at Level 20/0, and her only guaranteed boost is upon promotion where, by that point, Ike will have around 26 anyway. On top of Titania's HP still being like 13 below Ike's base HP, with that gap almost never being closed. Ever. Comparing a 20/5 Titania end of part 3 is pushing it heavily but even her defense doesn't compare to base Ike's. (This is transfer Ike, by the way)

Forged hand axes in 3-7? I'm going to guess she's 19/0 at this point, 20/0 maybe (Haar gets the Crown). She beats Ike there, but that lead only exists until 3-11. 2 chapters of beating Ike at 1-2 range, essentially.

And Ike is capable of ORKOing early Generals with a forged Steel Sword, or even Ettard or a Steel Blade. You don't get Hammer access till 3-2 anyway, and 3-2 itself is the kind of map where you either Rescue chain or Shove Shinon into the right spot in order to kill the boss on turn 3 with either Adept or a Critical, or hell use Celerity to get there in time in order to take on the boss.

You obviously neglected to mention Titania's movement advantages, which are notable in 3-P, 3-3, 3-5, 3-10, and 3-E. Ike has the greater utility in 3-1 (due to durability and doubling) and 3-4 (rescue-dropped to kill the boss), but that can't offset Titania's advantages in most of the other chapters. Ike (T) wins Part 4, but Titania (T) has a pretty clear win in Part 3.

In 3-1 her movement is an advantage? In 3-1 much of the low turning comes from luck with the Beast Tribes, not really from Titania anyway -- but that's also beside the point, because movement is a bitch in the early stages of the chapter.

3-3 has everyone doing everything; Titania's massive movement just lets her reach the far end a bit faster, but I know when I was playing NM a Level 18 Titania had trouble being sent that far back all by herself simply because the 3-4 less Defense and the 14 less HP pretty much kills her. On NM, too; for reference Haar actually has the defense and HP parameters to deal with that shit.

3-10's movement I'll give you, and in fact I've conceded that 3-8 and 3-10 Titania is better. 3-E isn't necessarily the kind of chapter that really needs movement considering how the beast and bird tribes have got their respective sides covered, and the center will always be blockaded. On top of Ike's combat win here anyway.

*snip* (Soren v Rolf)

I actually don't think I made my point clear so I apologize! I was wondering why there was such a large tier gap between them, not why Soren was better. I indeed acknowledge Soren's better, and I may have actually ended up arguing Rolf > Soren but I think the intent was that Rolf shouldn't be that low compared to him (with transfer bonuses).

Transfer boosted Rolf actually gets exactly enough Speed he needs to double Sages. I'm also somewhat certain he OHKOs many of the 1-1 Sages with transfer boost. Without transfer boost.... ehhhh oh well, there actually should be a large gap between Rolf and Soren. But without it, Rolf should be closer. I'll rebrowse the list and see what's going on there.

How about this: Makalov with a Wind Edge can do anything Astrid can do. But Makalov also has better durability and better 1-range chip. And Makalov (T) can actually double a lot and is almost as good as Kieran (N).

Gotcha.

That's just silly. Firstly, the 1-turn clear strategies aren't even close to 100% and so cannot be assumed off-hand to be more efficient than higher-certainty clears that take longer. Secondly, we should at least consider efficient clears that let us get some of the valuable items in this chapter. The Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Nullify are all valuable items. 2-E strategies which obtain these items should be considered. In that event, Calill is quite useful in 2-E for Meteor-bombing Ludveck for a higher-certainty clear or Meteoring the enemies which drop goodies. Heather is useful for nabbing the Dracoshield.

Erm... If you place the Speedwing in 2-3 into the convoy (which you'd want to do) then give Haar a Hammer and a Speedwing, park him in front of the Steel Longbow Archer (I'm fairly sure that works in this mode, too), then he will ORKO Ludveck. Ludveck has 18 AS. That is pretty much 100% certainty. Worst case scenario, Marcia gets the Speedwing from Danved or whoever you have offing the Halberdier with the Speedwing, transfers it over to Haar through trade chains with Elincia and any other unit who exists there. It is definitely a 100% guaranteed strategy with Haar, Elincia's the one that requires a proc's Stun. And a 1-turn strategy with a simple Stun proc is something that you can easily reset for.

I also don't think Transfer Ilyana merits any difference from regular Ilyana in the GM tier list.

Also, Kyza > Brom shouldn't exist... here's why. The 3-turn strategy I have involving Shinon requires a Shove, and Brom basically has free deployment in that chapter iirc so Brom could easily Shove Shinon into place (or give that first initial Shove to at least get Shinon that far). I'll copy your low tier but fix that...

Also, Brom is *not* good, but I don't think Kyza is any better at all. Brom's got decent defense on his side at least despite being doubled later on in the part (and probably even at the time), whereas Kyza has all of that (well 22 AS, he doesn't get doubled) with an added Laguz gauge to worry about.

(I almost argued Mist and Rhys. I caught myself because she gets her promotion item in part 4 -_-)

No, he doesn't. Leonardo cannot combine with Edward for kills unless Edward procs strength many times. Level 6 Edward cannot combine for kills with Level 4 Leonardo but he can with Level 1 Micaiah.

Level 6 Edward cannot combine kills with Level 1 Micaiah. I don't think I said that Leonardo/Edward could combine kills, I'm fairly sure I said/meant that the three of them could combine a kill because Edward does exactly the same damage as Leonardo in 1-2 (except he doubles with it).

Edward has an enemy phase. That alone makes him better than Leonardo. Dealing twice as much damage as Leonardo, being able to set up wrathcounters are just the icing on the cake.

Edward also gets 2HKO'd on said enemy phase. Wratchcounters don't do anything for him when he gets killed as soon as the next thing hits. Besides, Edward's higher than Leonardo; no one is arguing Leonardo > Edward, they're arguing Leonardo > Ilyana if anything. Half the time I argue with you i'm not sure if you have any sort of point or objective to it. Edited August 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Ike will always have a Speed lead on Titania, he caps at 30 and his stats are plenty BEXP abusable that he can hit that. Ike(T) comes in with maxed Skill, 2 points away from capping Str, 5 away from maxing spd, 1 away from maxing HP and finally 3 away from maxing Def. He can actually BEXP 3 levels and get +1 HP, +2 Str, +3 Def, and +2 Spd (and +1 wherever the hell you want) and then get BEXP to fill his levels from there in order to max his Speed. In fact, the best way to raise Ike is to BEXP fill his levels, and his first two levels will most likely give him some boosts he'd really really like.

The Speed lead is not really useful or necessary. Titania can use BEXP herself since skill starts off capped and strength is a point away.

Erm, Ike's defensive lead is always going to be a massive one, and Titania will never close the gap sufficiently. I repeat, she has 20.8 at Level 20/0, and her only guaranteed boost is upon promotion where, by that point, Ike will have around 26 anyway. On top of Titania's HP still being like 13 below Ike's base HP, with that gap almost never being closed. Ever. Comparing a 20/5 Titania end of part 3 is pushing it heavily but even her defense doesn't compare to base Ike's. (This is transfer Ike, by the way)

Titania is durable enough to not have to worry about her durability and she always has the option of taking one of the several durability boosting resources like Imbue, one of the Seraph Robes, or one of the Dracoshields.

Forged hand axes in 3-7? I'm going to guess she's 19/0 at this point, 20/0 maybe (Haar gets the Crown). She beats Ike there, but that lead only exists until 3-11. 2 chapters of beating Ike at 1-2 range, essentially.

There's the other 6 chapters where Titania has Hand Axes or Short Axe or even Tomahawk and Ike has Wind Edge.

And Ike is capable of ORKOing early Generals with a forged Steel Sword, or even Ettard or a Steel Blade.

Uh, no, he isn't:

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

That is the weakest General in 3-P. Ike needs to have capped strength and a forged Steel Sword in order to 2HKO. He will have neither since you cannot make forges yet, the strongest weapon available is the Ettard. As it is Ike is a full two points behind Steel Poleaxe!Titania in attack in 3-P and 3-1 anyway, so if he can ORKO, so can she.

You don't get Hammer access till 3-2 anyway, and 3-2 itself is the kind of map where you either Rescue chain or Shove Shinon into the right spot in order to kill the boss on turn 3 with either Adept or a Critical, or hell use Celerity to get there in time in order to take on the boss.

You need to have Celerity to drop Shinon in the boss' range on turn 2. And the strategy that you describe that is reliant on Adept and critical is a 2 turn not a 3 turn.

And guess who contributes more to dropping Shinon, or getting into Istvan's range on turn 2 at all? 7 move Ike or 9 move+Canto Titania?

In 3-1 her movement is an advantage? In 3-1 much of the low turning comes from luck with the Beast Tribes, not really from Titania anyway -- but that's also beside the point, because movement is a bitch in the early stages of the chapter.

You are obviously thinking of 3-P, not 3-1.

3-3 has everyone doing everything; Titania's massive movement just lets her reach the far end a bit faster, but I know when I was playing NM a Level 18 Titania had trouble being sent that far back all by herself simply because the 3-4 less Defense and the 14 less HP pretty much kills her. On NM, too; for reference Haar actually has the defense and HP parameters to deal with that shit.

Try harder. I did not have issues on HM.

3-10's movement I'll give you, and in fact I've conceded that 3-8 and 3-10 Titania is better. 3-E isn't necessarily the kind of chapter that really needs movement considering how the beast and bird tribes have got their respective sides covered, and the center will always be blockaded. On top of Ike's combat win here anyway.

Titania ORKOes. Ike ORKOes. What is Ike winning? The occasional Swordmaster? I'd rather have a unit that can actually stay on the front lines.

I actually don't think I made my point clear so I apologize! I was wondering why there was such a large tier gap between them, not why Soren was better. I indeed acknowledge Soren's better, and I may have actually ended up arguing Rolf > Soren but I think the intent was that Rolf shouldn't be that low compared to him (with transfer bonuses).

Transfer boosted Rolf actually gets exactly enough Speed he needs to double Sages. I'm also somewhat certain he OHKOs many of the 1-1 Sages with transfer boost. Without transfer boost.... ehhhh oh well, there actually should be a large gap between Rolf and Soren. But without it, Rolf should be closer. I'll rebrowse the list and see what's going on there.

Rolf is horrible. With and without transfers. It's one thing to grapple with poor combat if you have an enemy phase, but Rolf doesn't even have that.

Level 6 Edward cannot combine kills with Level 1 Micaiah.

Given that I played this chapter today, I think I know what I'm talking about. Edward deals 8x2 damage to Fighters. Micaiah deals 9. That is 25 damage to their 25HP. Leonardo does 8 damage. He is short. 25HP/6DEF Fighters are more than half the enemies on the map.

Edward also gets 2HKO'd on said enemy phase. Wratchcounters don't do anything for him when he gets killed as soon as the next thing hits. Besides, Edward's higher than Leonardo; no one is arguing Leonardo > Edward, they're arguing Leonardo > Ilyana if anything.

Leonardo does some minor chipping and I'm not all that sure he saves a single turn in 1-1. Edward, Micaiah and Nolan have enough offense between them for a 6 turn strategy. 1-2 is even more questionable because enemies get tougher and Leonardo will not have gained a level yet.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

I keep forgetting that Titania has 23 Spd upon transfers, which is really killing me because she has 21 Spd without it and Ike already beats Titania without transfers. That 2 Spd is really a godsend for Titania, isn't it? Anyways, I'm out for that argument since Ike's only substantial lead is when he gets the Ragnell in part 3.

Rolf is horrible. With and without transfers. It's one thing to grapple with poor combat if you have an enemy phase, but Rolf doesn't even have that.

No, Soren can't possibly have an enemy phase. He gets killed very easily; which is why it's comparable. In fact, Rolf with Crossbow does just as much as he would with a Steel Bow so he's a good contender for that (which improves his range to 1~2 on top of him having enough durability to get like 3RKO'd as opposed to Soren getting easily 2RKO'd). Not that I'm saying Rolf's better, but transfer Rolf does not deserve to go that far below Soren.

Given that I played this chapter today, I think I know what I'm talking about. Edward deals 8x2 damage to Fighters. Micaiah deals 9. That is 25 damage to their 25HP. Leonardo does 8 damage. He is short. 25HP/6DEF Fighters are more than half the enemies on the map.

Leonardo does some minor chipping and I'm not all that sure he saves a single turn in 1-1. Edward, Micaiah and Nolan have enough offense between them for a 6 turn strategy. 1-2 is even more questionable because enemies get tougher and Leonardo will not have gained a level yet.

He can also steal kills from enemies Nolan attacks (Nolan does like 18 damage to each Fighter doesn't he?) which frees Nolan up to do more things. This is 1-1, as well.

[Zanarkin]

He can also steal kills from enemies Nolan attacks (Nolan does like 18 damage to each Fighter doesn't he?) which frees Nolan up to do more things. This is 1-1, as well.

Micaiah is sufficient for this, and again she is a better investment investment the EXP.

[-Cynthia-]

I placed Elincia there simply because of the concept of a potential 1-turn clear with her, same with Haar being in Top. But it's hard to compare that to like Neph/Lucia's usefulness, as well as Brom's usefulness, and god knows what else. The best we can do is split up part 2 into like 5 different tier lists LOL or scrap it entirely because of just how specific Part 2 tends to be about how to play. CRKs probably don't even deserve their own list either. What do you think, Cynthia?

I'm fine with it the way things are I guess. The way Part 2 is characters from different teams pretty much have to be compared.

Agreed that a 1 turn clear for 2-E isn't always going to work (though we're at least 2-3 turning it). You may have dropped Haar/Elincia a little too far, their role in 2-E is still probably more important than Nealuchi/Lethe etc.'s role in 2-2 (and 2-E)

[Lord Raven]

So we are saying that Micaiah and Edward are coming together to kill Fighters on the same turn Micaiah and Nolan get a combine kill?

@Cynthia: Yea, that's the problem I have with tiering Part 2 (and I presume Red Fox had because I feel he seems to have an understanding as to why I came up with this idea), because this tier list is meant to account for the fact that you'll be strategizing much differently between parts and chapters. You can't compare the fact that Brom/Neph are the only units to the fact that Haar can, with a Speedwing, 1-turn 2-E and at worst 2-turn it by himself. I wanted to avoid that sort of thing, so I honestly feel like a chapter-by-chapter tier list for Part 2 is more efficient LOL It leaves out 2-P at any rate, because there's no low turning that.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[incognit0]

Ike T versus Titania T in part 3:

3-P: Titania's movement lead lets her get to the boss faster

3-1: Titania's movement lead lets her head east then north to kill the random halberdier; as Xander has shown, Titania T makes a three turn possible

3-2: Titania can drop Shinon in the boss' range turn two EP

3-3: Titania's movement lead lets her reach the Master Crown tent and those supplies while Ike is stuck back with Shinon and Mia. He cannot do what she does; she can do what he does

3-4: Ike is riding in Haar's saddlebags for the majority of the map. He does nothing but seize. Titania has self-improvement. Draw

3-5: Titania contributes to killing the boss and getting the energy drop in two turns, although if you one turn this map it is also a draw

3-7: Titania can't move past the first island. Ike wins at self improvement, just as Titania did in 3-4

3-8: Titania takes Hand axe forges, promo bonuses and canto and is way more useful than Ike. Ike can head east or something I guess, although that is better as strike for wildheart Ulki. You can 4 turn the map and not use Ike T's combat once (just did it)

3-10: Movement advantage makes her invaluable for getting to and clearing the boss area. Ike's combat lets him be part of the crowd of foot units that goes south, whoop dee do. Titania is, once again, whooping Ike's ass

3-11: Similar to 3-4. Ike spends the whole time with Haar, doesn't do a drop of combat, Titania has self improvement

3-E: Ike has better two range Atk here, although he can only use it if dropped by Haar, Janaff, Ulki, etc. Titania doesn't need a ferry to kill stuff. Plus, Ragnell has 4 Mt over a Hand Axe forge, but Titania averages an extra 3.8 Str at 20/4, so he has about a .2 Atk advantage and the advantage of doubling Swordmasters. Then when Haar drops him, even if Ike has provoke, the Wyrmslayer Swordmaster will target Haar. With someone like Provoke Boyd T the Swordmaster ignores Haar

I honestly have no clue how Ike T could be ahead of Titania T. His actual combat contributions are not that great.

Edit: Yeah, I started typing this before Mercenary Raven responded. Oh well. Titania T still crushes Ike. They shouldn't even really be in the same tier.

Edited August 8, 2011 by incognito123

[Anouleth]

He can also steal kills from enemies Nolan attacks (Nolan does like 18 damage to each Fighter doesn't he?) which frees Nolan up to do more things. This is 1-1, as well.

He can, but why would we? Usually we can just have then suicide into Nolan, or Edward or Micaiah can clean them up. And generally it's much more desirable to have more experience on those units. He doesn't really have a lot of opportunities to weaken enemies for Nolan either.

[Lord Raven]

We'd do it so Nolan could spend a turn getting ahead? He can even help Edward get kills if Edward's doing 8x2, considering it prevents Edward from getting damaged a second time against a Fighter while Micaiah steals a kill from a Fighter.