Multiple tier list idea

[Florete]

I was thinking the exact opposite. Muarim is just as useful as Nailah in 1-8 (he dominates his section of the map like she dominates hers). Muarim isn't as good as Nailah in 1-E because he needs to take some time and Olivi grass to transform (and stay transformed) but Nailah doesn't have an answer for Muarim's 1-7, in which he is the resident god unit.

yet Tormod can (almost) single-handedly clear the south in 1-8.

Kind of weakens Muarim's claim to 1-8, doesn't it? With the no damage trick, Vika can transform by turn 2, but Muarim is ironically too strong for that. I daresay Muarim has little to no use in 1-8 except for Shoving Tormod so he can be reached by the Dracoknight on turn 1. Nailah is pretty essential for the west considering how fast Volug gets fried by the Mages and the Bandits can whittle him down rather fast as well.

I don't know exactly how valuable Muarim is in 1-7 but I really doubt it beats Nailah's significance in 1-8 and 1-E advantages. With the exception of Jarod, Nailah's performance in 1-E does not change even when carrying Micaiah, confirmed by the fact that she OHKOs everything except possibly some stronger Armor Knights that she will still double with 19 AS.

[aku chi]

Kind of weakens Muarim's claim to 1-8, doesn't it? With the no damage trick, Vika can transform by turn 2, but Muarim is ironically too strong for that. I daresay Muarim has little to no use in 1-8 except for Shoving Tormod so he can be reached by the Dracoknight on turn 1. Nailah is pretty essential for the west considering how fast Volug gets fried by the Mages and the Bandits can whittle him down rather fast as well.

Nah, Nailah is (pretty close to) unnecessary in 1-8, also. If we weren't using Nailah, we could have Muarim head west and clean up with Volug and Rafiel. Nailah, Rafiel, and Muarim are all nice to have in 1-8, but I think you could remove any single one of them and clear the chapter just as fast. It's in the east where the battle is won.

I don't know exactly how valuable Muarim is in 1-7 but I really doubt it beats Nailah's significance in 1-8 and 1-E advantages. With the exception of Jarod, Nailah's performance in 1-E does not change even when carrying Micaiah, confirmed by the fact that she OHKOs everything except possibly some stronger Armor Knights that she will still double with 19 AS.

Nailah certainly wins 1-E, but Muarim can still be awesome there - ORKOing everything when transformed. He can transform first thing on turn 2 with Rafiel's help and so only wind up 2 spaces behind Nailah, which probably isn't significant. And 3-4 uses of Olivi Grass isn't a terrible price to pay for that kind of performance. I don't think it's enough to overcome Muarim's 1-7, where he can do anything except attack at 2 range. As for unique contributions, isn't Muarim the only unit that can 1RKO the boss of 1-7? He is certainly the unit that can kill the boss fastest (9 mov + not caring about being attacked). He is the only god unit in 1-7, unlike in 1-E.

Edited August 8, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

For people talking about Vika, sometimes she can't do the no damage trick. It depends on how much defense the Bandit has.

The Black Knight, on the other hand, bests Muarim chapter-for-chapter. He is more valuable in 1-E for his unique 1-2 range godliness. Muarim's 1-7 may be awesome, but nothing can compare to the Black Knight solo in 1-9 for per-chapter contributions.

I think that Micaiah being able to Seize is pretty comparable to the Black Knight being necessary for 1-9.

3-6 and 1-8 are their least valuable chapters, but I'd still give the nod to the Black Knight, because nobody can do what he does in 3-6 (even if he does it for a short while), yet Tormod can (almost) single-handedly clear the south in 1-8.

I don't understand how if what Muarim does in 1-8 isn't unique, then what the BK does in 3-6 is unique.

Nah, Nailah is (pretty close to) unnecessary in 1-8, also. If we weren't using Nailah, we could have Muarim head west and clean up with Volug and Rafiel. Nailah, Rafiel, and Muarim are all nice to have in 1-8, but I think you could remove any single one of them and clear the chapter just as fast. It's in the east where the battle is won.

That's not true. There are four enemies on the LHS of the map that need to be killed on player phase. In order to 3-turn, you need both Nailah and Volug there. In order to 4-turn, you still need Nailah (if Volug tries to do it on his own he will probably die and he cannot ORKO the Javelin Soldier anyway).

Edited August 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

I think that Micaiah being able to Seize is pretty comparable to the Black Knight being necessary for 1-9.

I don't think so. It's a combat contribution. And Micaiah can theoretically complete the chapter on her own. It's just made much, much easier if we solo with the Black Knight. I would find it weird if the Black Knight didn't get at least as much credit for his performance in 1-9 as Muarim gets for his performance in 1-7.

I don't understand how if what Muarim does in 1-8 isn't unique, then what the BK does in 3-6 is unique.

Theoretically remove Muarim from 1-7. Now Tormod can (try to) solo the south, perhaps with some help from Vika, Volug, or a DB unit from the north. Theoretically remove the Black Knight from 3-6. Now there's no god unit fall-back that can clear this difficult chapter himself if your other units aren't up to scratch.

That's not true. There are four enemies on the LHS of the map that need to be killed on player phase. In order to 3-turn, you need both Nailah and Volug there. In order to 4-turn, you still need Nailah (if Volug tries to do it on his own he will probably die and he cannot ORKO the Javelin Soldier anyway).

Did you miss my suggestion that Muarim head west? He can get there (transformed) on turn 3, ready to clean up. And don't forget Rafiel, which allows Volug to either (a) attack twice in one turn or (b) heal and then attack in one turn.

Edited August 8, 2011 by aku chi

[Florete]

Nah, Nailah is (pretty close to) unnecessary in 1-8, also. If we weren't using Nailah, we could have Muarim head west and clean up with Volug and Rafiel. Nailah, Rafiel, and Muarim are all nice to have in 1-8, but I think you could remove any single one of them and clear the chapter just as fast. It's in the east where the battle is won.

If we want to clear it in 3 turns, having Muarim for only turn 3 is definitely not going to be long enough. Removing Muarim has much less of an impact than removing Nailah has, especially since there will hardly be any difference without Muarim for the first two turns.

And 3-4 uses of Olivi Grass isn't a terrible price to pay for that kind of performance.

Every dose of Olivi Grass is another player phase Muarim loses for the same performance as Nailah. Don't forget that ranged enemies tend to prioritize units like Muarim who will lose gauge.

I don't think it's enough to overcome Muarim's 1-7, where he can do anything except attack at 2 range. As for unique contributions, isn't Muarim the only unit that can 1RKO the boss of 1-7? He is certainly the unit that can kill the boss fastest (9 mov + not caring about being attacked). He is the only god unit in 1-7, unlike in 1-E.

Muarim also doesn't have the first couple of turns in 1-7 as it is. I believe he's the only one who can ORKO the boss 100%, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to beat him, especially if someone gets there before Micaiah can Seize and is able to do an enemy phase + player phase kill.

For people talking about Vika, sometimes she can't do the no damage trick. It depends on how much defense the Bandit has.

Won't he always as long as he's in a Thicket? There's one right at the starting area you can use for that.

Did you miss my suggestion that Muarim head west? He can get there (transformed) on turn 3, ready to clean up. And don't forget Rafiel, which allows Volug to either (a) attack twice in one turn or (b) heal and then attack in one turn.

Especially if Volug is taking time to heal, Rafiel is going to have a rather difficult time Vigoring and not getting targeted. No, Volug is not taking this without Nailah unless he's been power-leveled.

[aku chi]

If we want to clear it in 3 turns, having Muarim for only turn 3 is definitely not going to be long enough. Removing Muarim has much less of an impact than removing Nailah has, especially since there will hardly be any difference without Muarim for the first two turns.

Arguable, but either way its an inferior contribution to Muarim's 1-7 and 1-E.

Every dose of Olivi Grass is another player phase Muarim loses for the same performance as Nailah. Don't forget that ranged enemies tend to prioritize units like Muarim who will lose gauge.

The lack of player phase tends not to matter much because all 1-range enemies suicide into Muarim and we have other units that can handle Snipers and Sages (Zihark, Volug, and Sothe come to mind). Muarim will probable only need to grass once or twice once he transforms unless we're sending him completely unaided...

Muarim also doesn't have the first couple of turns in 1-7 as it is.

Can't Tormod and company be recruited on turn 2? And Muarim starts with a full guage, in the event that there was any confusion on that matter.

Especially if Volug is taking time to heal, Rafiel is going to have a rather difficult time Vigoring and not getting targeted. No, Volug is not taking this without Nailah unless he's been power-leveled.

Nah, Volug has more movement than any of the enemies, so Rafiel can stand in a safe corner. Volug runs to him and uses a Vulnerary or Concoction. Then Rafiel vigors and Volug runs back and attacks a 2-range enemy. Rafiel's poor movement does make it difficult for him to vigor if Volug doesn't need a heal, though... Also, Resolve, Imbue, and Renewal are all options to increase Volug's durability.

I can't be certain, but I believe that Volug, Rafiel, and Muarim can clear the west in 1-8 without Nailah in either 3 or 4 turns. It's only a theoretical curiosity, though, because Nailah and Muarim are force-deployed in 1-8 and it would be foolish not to use them both.

[Anouleth]

I don't think so. It's a combat contribution. And Micaiah can theoretically complete the chapter on her own.

Most of the time, Jarod will OHKO her or double her or both.

It's just made much, much easier if we solo with the Black Knight. I would find it weird if the Black Knight didn't get at least as much credit for his performance in 1-9 as Muarim gets for his performance in 1-7.

I would find it weird if the Black Knight didn't get at least as much credit for his 1-9 performance as Edward gets for his 1-P performance, which is not a whole lot by the looks of the list.

Theoretically remove Muarim from 1-7. Now Tormod can (try to) solo the south, perhaps with some help from Vika, Volug, or a DB unit from the north. Theoretically remove the Black Knight from 3-6. Now there's no god unit fall-back that can clear this difficult chapter himself if your other units aren't up to scratch.

So when we remove a god unit from 1-8 it doesn't matter, but when we remove a god unit from 3-6 suddenly we're running around like headless chickens? Muarim is necessary to 3-turn 1-8. It is not possible without him.

Did you miss my suggestion that Muarim head west? He can get there (transformed) on turn 3, ready to clean up. And don't forget Rafiel, which allows Volug to either (a) attack twice in one turn or (b) heal and then attack in one turn.

Muarim is needed to perform key shoves, and also to ORKO Bandits, something that Tormod cannot achieve. Rafiel cannot move south. He will probably die. Volug cannot kill something and then be Vigored.

[-Cynthia-]

It all comes down to how 1-9 is weighed really, because obviously the BK's performance there trumps anything Muarim does ever, but without it Muarim is probably slightly better.

[aku chi]

I would find it weird if the Black Knight didn't get at least as much credit for his 1-9 performance as Edward gets for his 1-P performance, which is not a whole lot by the looks of the list.

You're not saying anything different than I am here. But the Black Knight is even more essential/important in 1-9 than Edward is in 1-P. Micaiah and Leonardo can clear 1-P by themselves in less than double the time it takes with Edward. And Edward by himself would take about as long to clear as Micaiah and Leonardo by themselves (depending on crit luck). So, Edward and Micaiah should get some hefty credit for being top contributors in 1-P (Leonardo less so), but it still can't match what the Black Knight gets for 1-9.

1-9 is certainly an extreme case. I don't think we should award the Black Knight (near) infinite utility or some such for 1-9, but we also shouldn't ignore that his performance is at least as good as any single unit's performance in any similar-length chapter.

[Florete]

Arguable, but either way its an inferior contribution to Muarim's 1-7 and 1-E.

Then it's a good thing Nailah is also in 1-E.

The lack of player phase tends not to matter much because all 1-range enemies suicide into Muarim and we have other units that can handle Snipers and Sages (Zihark, Volug, and Sothe come to mind). Muarim will probable only need to grass once or twice once he transforms unless we're sending him completely unaided...

Having the player phase > not. There's a number of things you can do with player phases. Shoving, opening the Door/Chests, killing ranged enemies others can't or can't get to, killing enemies in the way of others, etc.

Can't Tormod and company be recruited on turn 2? And Muarim starts with a full guage, in the event that there was any confusion on that matter.

They can, although I'm not sure if that's part of the best way to clear the map.

Nah, Volug has more movement than any of the enemies, so Rafiel can stand in a safe corner. Volug runs to him and uses a Vulnerary or Concoction. Then Rafiel vigors and Volug runs back and attacks a 2-range enemy. Rafiel's poor movement does make it difficult for him to vigor if Volug doesn't need a heal, though... Also, Resolve, Imbue, and Renewal are all options to increase Volug's durability.

This is still not getting the west done fast enough. Volug can't ORKO Bandits or the Soldier and can't OHKO Mages (so they still counter him). He is even prone to missing and there is a healer that also needs to be taken out. You need Nailah.

Honestly, this seems pretty obvious to me. Nailah is clearly winning 1-8 and 1-E, that's just too easy no matter how "necessary" or not either one is. The only thing Muarim has against her is 1-7, but I hardly think that alone more than cancels out Nailah's significant advantages later.

Most of the time, Jarod will OHKO her or double her or both.

Jarod doesn't move in 1-9.

So when we remove a god unit from 1-8 it doesn't matter, but when we remove a god unit from 3-6 suddenly we're running around like headless chickens? Muarim is necessary to 3-turn 1-8. It is not possible without him.

Muarim is needed to perform key shoves, and also to ORKO Bandits, something that Tormod cannot achieve. Rafiel cannot move south. He will probably die. Volug cannot kill something and then be Vigored.

What is he necessary for in 1-8 other than a Shove? Can't Tormod 2HKO Bandits with a Fire forge? He won't double all of them, but that's what player phase + enemy phase + Vika is there for.

[nflchamp]

You're not saying anything different than I am here. But the Black Knight is even more essential/important in 1-9 than Edward is in 1-P. Micaiah and Leonardo can clear 1-P by themselves in less than double the time it takes with Edward. And Edward by himself would take about as long to clear as Micaiah and Leonardo by themselves (depending on crit luck). So, Edward and Micaiah should get some hefty credit for being top contributors in 1-P (Leonardo less so), but it still can't match what the Black Knight gets for 1-9.

1-9 is certainly an extreme case. I don't think we should award the Black Knight (near) infinite utility or some such for 1-9, but we also shouldn't ignore that his performance is at least as good as any single unit's performance in any similar-length chapter.

And we usually just call this a tiebreaker and move on.

[Lord Raven]

I've set it on Nailah > BK > Muarim... because a 4-turn clear relies on Nailah, whereas Muarim doesn't necessarily matter in 1-7 or 1-8. 1-E Muarim is doing *slightly* worse than Nailah in some ways (Nailah can more effectively ferry, though; Muarim cannot, on top of the obvious Grass problems). BK is invaluable in 1-9, is very good for clearing ledges in 1-E, and in 3-6 he comes a little bit late. His 1-9 I can't weigh as hard; someone said it well when they said that "it's like saying Micaiah can seize is a point in her favor" -- it is true, because he's absolutely necessary if you wish to win the map, and the purpose of the map is to use him if that makes sense. It's entirely because Micaiah cannot solo the chapter unless you get hyper lucky with her defensive parameters and she has Resolve or some shit, idk.

(If it's worth anything, my Edward didn't get a level up in 1-P and didn't get a speed gain in 1-1, so Leonardo actually helped finish off some of Nolan's scraps. In 1-2, i have to have SPECIFIC stats on the Fighter right above the if I want Leonardo to be of any use beyond ferrying Laura, because he can weaken a 6 Def Fighter enough for Nolan to get the kill. 1-3; my original 7 turn didn't have him at all, he might've chipped one Fighter but that's about it. I may just redo this run, but in 1-1 I got a 6 turn clear because Leonardo actually cleaned off some of the enemies Nolan attacked, cause they actually took 8 damage extra to kill. Leonardo otherwise hung back and prevented a Fighter from breaking through, whereas Edward took out the fighter adjacect to the boss with a Wrath crit and Micaiah [and Edward] escaped.)

I posted 3 new sets of tier lists, all are quite different as you can see; none are ordered within tiers, before anyone comments. I want to argue tier position before arguing any sort of comparison and specifics within tiers, since I see that jumping into specifics too early was kind of bad for discussion. But what I generally did was place more offense emphasis for Ike's route (since he has two rout chapters), more mobility emphasis on Micaiah's (due to the desert chapter), and I'm not sure what I did for Tibarn's route but I did work under the impression that we'd be taking into account a 1-turn clear as the most efficient way (Elincia gets shoved a bunch, rescues Volke and Volke delivers the kill, it was either 1 or 2 turns).

Edited August 10, 2011 by Mercenary Raven