(FE10) Another another another RD draft

[incognit0]

It would have been much better if you just hadn't said anything and let it die. What you did just makes you look arrogant and unable to come up with a proper response. And who's to say you're not being stubborn? As far as I'm concerned, the argument has barely gotten anywhere and right now you've made it look like you bailed out early because you didn't think you could win. Which is smart if that's the case, but you should not have made it so obvious, nor should you have attempted to give off the impression of being right when you couldn't even see the discussion to its end.

To me it just looks like Fenrir is agreeing to disagree. He simply thinks that part of the spirit of the draft is allowing the game to force penalties on the player, and you have expressed your disagreement:

Forcing penalties on the player shouldn't be in the spirit of drafts.

What would you suggest, then? Make sure it doesn't involve forced penalties.

To be honest, I think Fenrir has a point; less free units and more penalties across the board adds more complexity to the choice of each draftee, now that they are picked not just on their merit but also on the ability to avoid penalties. I can certainly see how people would enjoy the extra complexity, but you forcing your opinion on Fenrir (that forced penalties are bad) isn't exactly 'winning' you the argument anyways.

Edited August 11, 2011 by incognito123

[Florete]

To me it just looks like Fenrir is agreeing to disagree. He simply thinks that part of the spirit of the draft is allowing the game to force penalties on the player, and you have expressed your disagreement:

I might be inclined to believe you if he didn't have lines like:

I'm not going to continue this pointless argument. But your still wrong, and I'm still right :awesome: :awesome:

"I'm right, you're wrong" is just rude and childish like PegKnightLover pointed out. If he'd instead said something like:

"It doesn't really matter who's right, I just don't feel like continuing."

I would not have even responded. He did not agree to disagree.

To be honest, I think Fenrir has a point; less free units and more penalties across the board adds more complexity to the choice of each draftee, now that they are picked not just on their merit but also on the ability to avoid penalties. I can certainly see how people would enjoy the extra complexity, but you forcing your opinion on Fenrir (that forced penalties are bad) isn't exactly 'winning' you the argument anyways.

I'm not "forcing" anything, I'm expressing. In fact, I was ready to state in my next reply to him (had there been one) that it was largely an opinionated matter and this is just the method that was agreed upon. It's true that more penalties adds different reasoning to draft units, but I'd hardly call it more "complex" as opposed to just giving extra value to specific units.

But I can also say that there's accuracy in saying that it isn't in the spirit of drafts to force penalties. The idea of a draft is to get the lowest turn count using the units you draft and, usually, no others, so being forced to use someone you didn't draft and getting penalized for something beyond your control doesn't follow that very well.

[Xander]

This argument is fun to read Edited August 11, 2011 by Xanderdog

[Fenrir]

To me it just looks like Fenrir is agreeing to disagree. He simply thinks that part of the spirit of the draft is allowing the game to force penalties on the player

You're correct. Smart man.

I might be inclined to believe you if he didn't have lines like:

"I'm right, you're wrong" is just rude and childish like PegKnightLover pointed out. If he'd instead said something like:

"It doesn't really matter who's right, I just don't feel like continuing."

Well i am right, And you are wrong. So what's so bad in saying it? ;D

I would not have even responded. He did not agree to disagree.

I was just leaving it at what i thought was a good ending. But what do you know, more fireworks! Bang for my buck!

But I can also say that there's accuracy in saying that it isn't in the spirit of drafts to force penalties. The idea of a draft is to get the lowest turn count using the units you draft and, usually, no others, so being forced to use someone you didn't draft and getting penalized for something beyond your control doesn't follow that very well.

Well, it's your ruleset that proposes we use units we don't draft. Now, my question is, how is that in the spirit of the draft at all?

"usually, no others"? You want us always always to use others.

I'm not going to sugar coat this, but. Most of your shit makes no sense.

This argument is fun to read

I am glad somebody isn't so serious.

[Florete]

This argument is fun to read

Thanks. I do try.

Well i am right, And you are wrong. So what's so bad in saying it? ;D

If you're too young to understand I'm not going to hold your hand long enough for you to figure it out.

Normally I'd think you're being sarcastic but you already said you were completely serious.

I was just leaving it at what i thought was a good ending. But what do you know, more fireworks! Bang for my buck!

No, you left it at what would have been your preferable ending, an ending you had not earned the right to have.

Well, it's your ruleset that proposes we use units we don't draft. Now, my question is, how is that in the spirit of the draft at all?

Um, due to how RD works, you will always have to use someone you didn't draft. Remember how we wanted to get rid of "forced penalties?"

"usually, no others"? You want us always always to use others.

What are you talking about?

I'm not going to sugar coat this, but. Most of your shit makes no sense.

I have to sugar coat what I want to say, unfortunately, because I'd get fired if I didn't. You are infuriatingly arrogant and I seriously wonder if you're actually just trolling, in which case I'm the sucker for being trolled.

EDIT: And in which case I'd have to warn you for trolling.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Fenrir]

Thanks. I do try.

If you're too young to understand I'm not going to hold your hand long enough for you to figure it out.

Normally I'd think you're being sarcastic but you already said you were completely serious.

I think I should get more credit.(but that's just me)

I know exactly what I'm doing.

Are you really going to play my game to see who's the more arrogant ass? You cannot win.

No, you left it at what would have been your preferable ending, an ending you had not earned the right to have.

You have no right to say that i have no right.

Um, due to how RD works, you will always have to use someone you didn't draft. Remember how we wanted to get rid of "forced penalties?"

What are you talking about?

Geoffrey on 2-3 and all of your other free units.

[Florete]

I think I should get more credit.(but that's just me)

I know exactly what I'm doing.

Are you really going to play my game to see who's the more arrogant ass? You cannot win.

No, but I can warn you for trolling instead, since that continues to look like the situation here.

You have no right to say that i have no right.

Except I do. You can't declare "I win" until you've beaten an opponent. In no way did you "beat" me, so you have no right to declare yourself a winner of any sort.

Geoffrey on 2-3 and all of your other free units.

Elaborate.

[Fenrir]

No, but I can warn you for trolling instead, since that continues to look like the situation here.

Stop threatening to abuse your power, I have just made a series of condescending remarks and you are offended.

Except I do. You can't declare "I win" until you've beaten an opponent. In no way did you "beat" me, so you have no right to declare yourself a winner of any sort.

Well how come you can declare that I lost?

Elaborate.

If it is not in the spirit of the draft to use units you did not pick, why are they free? You should have to pay a price(a big 7 turn price for Tibarn) for using somebody no matter what. That's the way I see things.

I've never seen penalties as the massive monster of a problem that you do.

[Florete]

Stop threatening to abuse your power, I have just made a series of condescending remarks and you are offended.

So now you are openly admitting to flaming. Where would the abuse be here? I have ample reason to warn you right now. If anything I'm being too lenient with you.

Well how come you can declare that I lost?

I never declared that you lost or that I won.

If it is not in the spirit of the draft to use units you did not pick, why are they free? You should have to pay a price(a big 7 turn price for Tibarn) for using somebody no matter what. That's the way I see things.

I've never seen penalties as the massive monster of a problem that you do.

They are free so that you don't get penalized for something beyond your control. Is this really so hard to comprehend? And using units you didn't pick is fine in certain situations. It's very possible to purposely plan out taking a penalty in 4-2 to strengthen your other teams, for example, or if you just aren't skilled enough to get past something like 3-1 without Titania. This is why I said "usually." These examples are not a problem because the penalty is the drafter's fault and is within their control. Penalties as a whole are not a problem to me and are, in fact, a good thing to have. Forced penalties beyond a player's control are what I see as going against the spirit of a draft.

Can you disagree with this? Yes, you can. This is largely an opinionated matter and I can understand someone not seeing a problem in forced penalties and even liking having them. However, enough people didn't like that to make what you see now the standard set of rules.

[Lilmik11]

I swear I'm not coming here until someone signs up, this argument is ridiculous,childish and very rude.There's way of arguing without insulting someone.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Junkhead]

Poor Fenrir.

[Fenrir]

So now you are openly admitting to flaming. Where would the abuse be here? I have ample reason to warn you right now. If anything I'm being too lenient with you.

Warn your own ass while your at it, you've been just as offensive.

Lilmik called the whole argument offensive and you've responded to my every statement in just as childish ways.

I never declared that you lost or that I won.

If i didn't have the right to declare that i won then I only had the right to declare I lost in your mind, correct?

They are free so that you don't get penalized for something beyond your control. Is this really so hard to comprehend?

Some things are just going to be out of your control. That's how life works, so why make a draft so different?

And using units you didn't pick is fine in certain situations. It's very possible to purposely plan out taking a penalty in 4-2 to strengthen your other teams, for example, or if you just aren't skilled enough to get past something like 3-1 without Titania. This is why I said "usually." These examples are not a problem because the penalty is the drafter's fault and is within their control. Penalties as a whole are not a problem to me and are, in fact, a good thing to have. Forced penalties beyond a player's control are what I see as going against the spirit of a draft.

I'm one of these who "just aren't skilled enough" to beat 3-1 without taking a penalty,(Condescend MOAR?) I see absolutely no problem with it.

As you said below, it's just a conflict of ideals.

Can you disagree with this? Yes, you can. This is largely an opinionated matter and I can understand someone not seeing a problem in forced penalties and even liking having them. However, enough people didn't like that to make what you see now the standard set of rules.

When exactly was this decision made? There wasn't ever a topic or anything to vote on IIRC.

I swear I'm not coming here until someone signs up, this argument is ridiculous,childish and very rude.There's way of arguing without insulting someone.

funny that a mod is acting this way if it's so so horrible...

Poor Fenrir.

Take no pity.

[Florete]

Warn your own ass while your at it, you've been just as offensive.

Lilmik called the whole argument offensive and you've responded to my every statement in just as childish ways.

I have not been nearly as condescending nor did I start saying anything even close to offensive until you began lashing out. Even then, most of my "offensive" comments have been calling you out on faulty logic and arrogance, with reason, something you refuse to use. I don't agree with people who think an attitude is always necessary to back up a point, but sometimes you really need one to get a point through.

Lilmik is not God. I will not begrudge him for his comment because I can see where he's coming from, but that doesn't mean he's 100% correct.

If i didn't have the right to declare that i won then I only had the right to declare I lost in your mind, correct?

You also had the right to let it be and leave it as a "draw."

Some things are just going to be out of your control. That's how life works, so why make a draft so different?

Because a draft isn't life. A draft is something we have much, much more control over than life.

And you said my points were bad. You're grasping at straws now.

I'm one of these who "just aren't skilled enough" to beat 3-1 without taking a penalty,(Condescend MOAR?) I see absolutely no problem with it.

I wasn't referring to you with that note, and that was also one of the things I mentioned that isn't a problem. In fact I wasn't even being condescending with that point since some people simply aren't as good as others. 3-1 is a difficult map for drafts, anyway, so there's really no shame in taking a Titania penalty there.

When exactly was this decision made? There wasn't ever a topic or anything to vote on IIRC.

The main discussion happened in Integrity's topic.

I will apologize to Lilmik, though, for taking up his topic with this (it is not really off-topic but neither is it what the topic was made for). If he requests it, I'll move the conversation to PM. Plus I can be more brutal there.

[Lilmik11]

I wasn't trying to be mean, in fact while I agree with Fenrir, what I'm saying is that both of you have crossed limits. While Fenrir you have been arrogant and kinda jerkish, Rfof you are using your mod powers to help you win this argument, which is not fair.Don't hate me for what I'm saying, I'm just trying to be honest here. You can still talk here, but please try to do so nicely without being mean. If you want to get at each other's throat, use private messages. Although, thanks for apoligising Rfof, although I would have been fine without one,but still it's nice and polite of you :)

Edited August 12, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Junkhead]

Because a draft isn't life. A draft is something we have much, much more control over than life.

Oh I'm not too sure about that.

[Florete]

I wasn't trying to be mean, in fact while I agree with Fenrir, what I'm saying is that both of you have crossed limits. While Fenrir you have been arrogant and kinda jerkish, Rfof you are using your mod powers to help you win this argument, which is not fair.Don't hate me for what I'm saying, I'm just trying to be honest here. You can still talk here, but please try to do so nicely without being mean. If you want to get at each other's throat, use private messages.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. I called him out on the possibility that he is legitimately breaking rules. It has nothing to do with the argument at large as you don't need to break rules to make bad points. He even pretty much explicitly stated that he was flaming. If I weren't a mod, I may have reported him by now. Flames incite more flames, and all I want to tell him to do is to calm down.

If I was only threatening to warn him for disagreeing with me, then I'd be abusing power. But I'm not doing that. You can disagree with me all day and I won't even acknowledge my position. What I won't allow is flaming and trolling in the disagreeing. From an outside perspective I suppose I can see how you might think I've been abusing, but if you look closely you should notice that I'm really not.

[Lilmik11]

I'm not doing anything of the sort. I called him out on the possibility that he is legitimately breaking rules. It has nothing to do with the argument at large as you don't need to break rules to make bad points. He even pretty much explicitly stated that he was flaming. If I weren't a mod, I may have reported him by now. Flames incite more flames, and all I want to tell him to do is to calm down.

If I was only threatening to warn him for disagreeing with me, then I'd be abusing power. But I'm not doing that. You can disagree with me all day and I won't even acknowledge my position. What I won't allow is flaming and trolling in the disagreeing. From an outside perspective I suppose I can see how you might think I've been abusing, but if you look closely you should notice that I'm really not.

OK, it's just that I didn't exactly think <<I'm still right and you're wrong>> was trolling. I suck at argumenting anyway :P

[incognit0]

OK, it's just that I didn't exactly think <<I'm still right and you're wrong>> was trolling. I suck at argumenting anyway :P

Exactly. Mostly because one, it was Fenrir, and two, there was the smiley afterwards, it seemed to another opinion that with <<I'm still right and you're wrong>> Fenrir was leaving the comment in a lighthearted manner not meant to be taken seriously as it related to the argument. I honestly don't know how Fenrir was trolling. Flaming is a different question. I would venture to say, having watched and closely followed the developments, that both of you escalated the argument gradually and equally. However, I don't think either poster wanted to flame the other; this also seemed fairly clear that both of you merely felt very strongly about your side of the argument. It is much as Radiant Kitty quotes dondon in his signature:

Facts don't have as much punch without an attitude to back them up.

It is difficult to convey tone across the internet, but I don't believe Fenrir flamed or trolled, although I understand RFoF's position/point of view.

Edited August 12, 2011 by incognito123

[Fenrir]

EDIT:

Fenrir was leaving the comment in a lighthearted manner not meant to be taken seriously as it related to the argument.

DUDE READS MY FUCKING MIND!!! your a genius.

I have not been nearly as condescending nor did I start saying anything even close to offensive until you began lashing out.

I don't think stating my opinion really counts as "lashing out"

Lilmik is not God. I will not begrudge him for his comment because I can see where he's coming from, but that doesn't mean he's 100% correct.

they're an objective person here.

You also had the right to let it be and leave it as a "draw."

That wouldn't be any fun.

Because a draft isn't life. A draft is something we have much, much more control over than life.

Control freak is a mega control freak.

And you said my points were bad. You're grasping at straws now.

Well they were.

I wasn't referring to you with that note, and that was also one of the things I mentioned that isn't a problem. In fact I wasn't even being condescending with that point since some people simply aren't as good as others. 3-1 is a difficult map for drafts, anyway, so there's really no shame in taking a Titania penalty there.

If you said, I hate white people, you would be referring to me, I'm in that group and can't change it.

I will apologize to Lilmik, though, for taking up his topic with this (it is not really off-topic but neither is it what the topic was made for). If he requests it, I'll move the conversation to PM. Plus I can be more brutal there.

No, this is much to entertaining for PMs.

If I was only threatening to warn him for disagreeing with me, then I'd be abusing power. But I'm not doing that. You can disagree with me all day and I won't even acknowledge my position. What I won't allow is flaming and trolling in the disagreeing. From an outside perspective I suppose I can see how you might think I've been abusing, but if you look closely you should notice that I'm really not.

I have been disagreeing with you all day, and you have acknowledged you position.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Fenrir

[Florete]

Exactly. Mostly because one, it was Fenrir, and two, there was the smiley afterwards, it seemed to another opinion that with <<I'm still right and you're wrong>> Fenrir was leaving the comment in a lighthearted manner not meant to be taken seriously as it related to the argument. I honestly don't know how Fenrir was trolling. Flaming is a different question. I would venture to say, having watched and closely followed the developments, that both of you escalated the argument gradually and equally. However, I don't think either poster wanted to flame the other; this also seemed fairly clear that both of you merely felt very strongly about your side of the argument. It is much as Radiant Kitty quotes dondon in his signature:

That is why I first made sure of whether or not he was serious. He said he was completely serious.

I don't think stating my opinion really counts as "lashing out"

Read this post again. Suddenly you started regularly cursing and insulting my points despite the fact I had done nothing to provoke you.

Control freak is a mega control freak.

You are still responding.

Well they were.

And you choose to usually do nothing to back that up while I've backed up pretty much every point I made.

If you said, I hate white people, you would be referring to me, I'm in that group and can't change it.

Nice strawman.

No, this is much to entertaining for PMs.

Statements like this are what make me wonder if you are trolling. If you seriously cared about the discussion past "Oh, it's fun," you probably wouldn't mind going to PMs.

I have been disagreeing with you all day, and you have acknowledged you position.

Now if only disagreement was the only part of it.

DUDE READS MY FUCKING MIND!!! your a genius.

If you're not being serious and I ask if you're serious, don't fucking tell me you're serious. You had better have a damn good explanation for this shit or I will warn you for trolling because it is just too obvious right now that you were intentionally trying to anger me earlier.

[Fenrir]

That is why I first made sure of whether or not he was serious. He said he was completely serious.

that was about me being right, which i obviously think I am. And you being wrong, which I think you are. The smiles should've implied that I added something a little lighthearted to it.

Read this post again. Suddenly you started regularly cursing and insulting my points despite the fact I had done nothing to provoke you.

I just curse alot, and I thought we were debating the better draft ruleset? In a debate don't you usually think the other person is wrong, that's all i was saying.

You are still responding.

What does this have to do with you being a control freak?

And you choose to usually do nothing to back that up while I've backed up pretty much every point I made.

I've backed up my points plenty enough.

Nice strawman.

Lol

Statements like this are what make me wonder if you are trolling. If you seriously cared about the discussion past "Oh, it's fun," you probably wouldn't mind going to PMs.

That's actually a bit of a misquote, I said, "this is much to entertaining" sounds a little more proper, y'know?

Now if only disagreement was the only part of it.

If it is infact PART of it, abuseabuseabuse. I liked arguing with you more when you weren't a mod.

If you're not being serious and I ask if you're serious, don't fucking tell me you're serious. You had better have a damn good explanation for this shit or I will warn you for trolling because it is just too obvious right now that you were intentionally trying to anger me earlier.

Why would you suggest that? You just wanna banhammer me really bad.

That's the only explenation!!

[Xander]

you guys should take it to pm, and while your at it apologize to Lilmik for ruining his draft since it appears to be dead.

[PKL]

Its not dead because of rfof and fenrir's little discussion. Its dead because there are way too many drafts going on atm. Heck, i joined to help fill the spots but i know i wont be able to finish anytime soon. I have 4 other drafts i have to finish first and i start college this monday.

[Lilmik11]

you guys should take it to pm, and while your at it apologize to Lilmik for ruining his draft since it appears to be dead.

It's not their fault, it's more a question of timing, since there's way too many RD draft going at the moment. With or without their fight, it's wouldn't have worked. Although I agree that this should have been taken to PMs like Rfof and you sugested, but Fenrir didn't want to. Anyway, I suggest digging this topic up once a few drafts are over, for now, let's just let it drown

[RNG Princess]

You can count me in ^_^