Why cavalier-Great knights suck

[OriginalRaisins]

FE8 introduced upon us the class of great knight as an option for cavalier promotion, and I must admit, the great knight with all three weapons looked a lot better than the paladin who couldn't use axes as I was first playing through the game. But then the subtle but rather weighty flaws began to catch my attention. Let me tell you the difference between great knights and paladins, and why the latter is a better promotion choice for cavaliers.

Great knight advantages:

slightly better promotion gains

axes

My question is, however, do these advantages outweigh the cons of turning a cavalier into a great knight (irrelative to paladin)

CONS:

-1 move

Unit is now armored, and can be killed by armorslayers and the like. Also can only move 1 space on a desert tile.

In my opinion. The great knight's pros seem to just outweigh the cons, making them a slight upgrade from cavaliers.

Now lets look at the paladin:

+1 move

can use swords better

And no direct cons from promotion. The only things the great knight has over paladins are 5 more points of promotion gains and the ability to use axes. But let me tell you why axes arent as good a promotion gain as one might think.

Lets look at the CON of each cavalier if they are promoted to great knight.

Kyle: 14

Franz and forde: 13

And now lets look at the axes, most specifically the weight.

http://www.serenesfo...net/fe8/axe.htm

most of the axes are simply much too heavy for them to use. and lets not forget that they start with a d in axes, and you cannot train them well with the devil axe because it is too heavy. Simply put, cav-great knights simply do not have the con or wlevel to wield the more powerful axes.

now lets see the con of a cav-paladin:

Kyle: 12

Franz and forde:11

And the lances of FE8: http://www.serenesfo...t/fe8/lance.htm

Clearly, there are not many lances that inhibit AS for paladins. And only one sword that inhibits kyle. Coupled with the sword EXP upon promotion. Paladins can properly use the weapons they need to beat the lategame, while great knights are stuck with the most basic of axes, and that isn't counting in the move advantages and the fact that paladins are not armored. The lack of extra con also means that the paladins are better at rescuing than the great knights

All in all, great knights are inferior to paladins because they gain a weapon that they cannot use well, and also receive penalties such as move and armor. While the paladin receives a straight, undeniable upgrade and is overall better for both efficiency and non-tower playthroughs.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Fetchystick

[whase]

I agree on paladins being better than GKs, but only because of the move and armored weakness. the other reasons don't seem important enough to count IMO.

Great knight advantages:

slightly better growths

I didn't know promoting changed growth rates....

[OriginalRaisins]

I agree on paladins being better than GKs, but only because of the move and armored weakness. the other reasons don't seem important enough to count IMO.

I didn't know promoting changed growth rates....

Sorry, promotion gains. This is what I get for making a post in the morning.

[Tables]

GK Franz/Forde loses:

2 AS to Steel Axes

3 AS to Brave Axes

2 AS to effective Axes

None to Swordreavers (not they need them)

None to Hand Axes

None to Iron Axes

Paladin Franz/Forde loses:

2 AS to Steel Lances

3 AS to Brave Lances

2-3 AS to effective Lances

None to Axereavers

None to Javelins

None to Iron Lances.

Please explain to me how 2 AS loss to axes is "simply much too heavy for them to use" while 2 AS loss to lances is "not many lances that inhibit AS for paladins." ESPECIALLY considering GK has +1 SPD from promotion.

[Integrity]

The only thing I'm right rarin' to argue about at oh-dark-thirty here is your second GK con. Armorslayers aren't exactly common at all and when they show up they're often on the weakest enemy type in the game (skeletons/myrmen), and the desert squares consist of exactly one chapter in the entire game plus endgame+ where Paladins aren't exactly much better off (read: certainly not deployed over GKs for their +1 mov).

The CON thingy, you have a point but it's also worth mentioning that Hand Axes are, from my experience, distinctly better than Javelins due to higher Lance/Axe enemy density as compared to Sword and trading 5 Hit for a delicious 1 MT. The extra CON GKs have also lets most notably the blondies use a couple extra Lances without getting weighed down - most notably Steel and Horse/Armorslaying ones. Plus Blades if you're ever inclined to turn them in that direction.

Paladins gain extra sword ability, yes, but they gain a whopping 30 points of WEXP. That's not even a full bar and, if you want your Paladins/GKs using Swords, you've found opportunities to make them use them. There are certainly Enemy Phases out there where Kyle can get away with whipping out a Steel Sword for a cool 12-ish WEXP (four kills, doubling and 1RKOing isn't inconceivable) and you've just made up half the Paladin's WEXP bonus. Add to that - what swords are Paladins using that GKs won't? The best (reliably available) sword I can come up with is Killing Edges at C - B gets you a whopping Brave Swords and that's it, and A gets you Silvers which is nice, but aren't exactly readily available until late, when even a GK can have A Swords.

And it ain't like any self-respecting Paladin is getting S Swords (unless you're lumi) when there're Javelins to be thrown and Lances with which to stab, thanks to the lock on one S-rank weapon.

All of this essay down, I still think Paladins are better for efficient playthroughs thanks to the +2 MOV, but I don't think it's as STEAMROLLING BETTER OVERALL as you call it. And this was way longer than I intended.

EDIT: Also GKs have an infinitely cooler sprite and name and animations so nyeh.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Integrity

[Swordsalmon]

Great Knights' access to Axes isn't much of a benefit when it starts at an E rank and promotion doesn't occur until fairly late in the game. :/

[Thor Odinson]

And it ain't like any self-respecting Paladin is getting S Swords (unless you're lumi) when there're Javelins to be thrown and Lances with which to stab, thanks to the lock on one S-rank weapon.

Only on Sethsolos where Audhulma's +5 res helps tremendously in C18 with the gorgons and Lyon and has 3 mt over Vidofnir. Otherwise, Paladin for S lance.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Tables]

Great Knights' access to Axes isn't much of a benefit when it starts at an E rank and promotion doesn't occur until fairly late in the game. :/

Two things:

1) E axes gets you instant acess to Steel AND Hand axes - and hand axes are pretty much the best weapon on the game in terms of cost/availability effectiveness

2) They start with D axes, granting access to Halberds and Hammers, and being only 40 WEXP (that's, like, 7 2RKOs with a Steel axe) from C axes and Reavers/Killers.

[Colonel M]

Great Knights' access to Axes isn't much of a benefit when it starts at an E rank and promotion doesn't occur until fairly late in the game. :/

They have D Axes, not E. Source - Click.

Paladins have +2 Mov over Great Knights and the Con can also screw up Rescue chains (i.e. Kyle's 14 Con won't allow him to Rescue unpromoted Gerik. Pity that promoted Gerik is so fat that he can only be Rescued by unpromoted L'Arachel and other crap like that). It's a minor point, but it's a slightly bigger one than the AS loss.

[Junkhead]

I don't think GK's suck because they're vulnerable to an extremely rare weapon that enemies will rarely carry and because they can hardly move in a particular chapter. I mean, has the latter ever been a reason for Paladins sucking?

[Mekkah]

99% of the axes (especially the heavy ones) don't matter. It's all about being able to use Hand Axes for better ranged WT control. They never need the Brave Axe because they can use the Brave Lance, they never need the Devil Axe cause you can gain WEXP with the Steel Axe, etc. You're listing pro's and cons as if they all weigh equally, when in fact the only 2 things that matter are the 2 mov difference and axes. I think 2 more mov is better, personally.

[Blaze the Sage]

In addition to all that above, there's also the caps. If you're expecting a character to horribly ram the Paladin's strength or defense cps, it's a good idea to take them the route of the Great Knight instead, where they can squeeze out a few more points from those growths.

Great Knights, in terms of caps, get 3 more strength, and 4 more defense, with identical speed and resistance. The only place they lose out over Paladins is 2 points in skill - and that's only for the guys! Female Great Knights (see: Amelia) have an even BIGGER stat cap advantage (if she manages to take advantage of them), as both strength and defense gain another point in their advantage due to female paladin caps, and the female Great Knight Skill cap is actually a point higher than the female Paladin. Speed and resistance are still identical to her paladin caps.

Movement and vulnerability to slayer weapons are the ONLY real downsides to going Great Knight over a Paladin.

[Just call me AL]

In addition to all that above, there's also the caps. If you're expecting a character to horribly ram the Paladin's strength or defense cps, it's a good idea to take them the route of the Great Knight instead, where they can squeeze out a few more points from those growths.

Outside of Creature Campaign, I don't see why caps should be brought up. Especially if we're assuming scenario in that the player is actively trying to make it through AQAP. No unit would realistically reach their stat caps in such a scenario.

[Raven]

GKs are consistent with the majority of foot units anyway (outside of forests and desert), yet we don't penalise them for having only 6 MOV.

[Tables]

Depending on your frame of reference, penalising for having 6 move instead of 8 move is the same as rewarding for having 8 move instead of 6 move.

Also GK's are more slowed by terrain than foot units. That doesn't matter TOO much but looking at the chapters after likely promotion time (about chapter 14-15):

Chapter 15: Sand. Paladins can skirt the edges okay, GK's are considerably slower at it than foot units.

Chapter 16: Little if any terrain.

Chapter 17: Moderate terrain. If you aren't rushing Lyon with a flier, GK's are slowed a bit.

Chapter 18: IIRC, no terrain that slows GK's but not foot units

Chapter 19: No terrain

Chapter 20: GK's are pretty terrible here. Foot units are considerably faster.

Endgame: No terrain.

So there's one or two cases that GK's are actually worse movement wise than all but Generals.

[Lord Raven]

If enemies were stronger, then Great Knight would be a little bit better for efficiency. Frankly, they're not strong enough for the pros of a stronger 1-2 range and a stronger weapon type to really matter that much.

[Junkhead]

Chapter 16: Little if any terrain.

The terrain at Ch 16 isn't honestly worth mentioning...unless...unless on Ephraim's route, you have your GK/s go up up door through the bushes. The rest of the action takes place indoors.

[Mekkah]

Even in Creature Campaign, their caps don't matter as the enemies would still fall just fine vs a capped Paladin. If something survives, a Great Knight probably wouldn't be able to ORKO it either, and you might just be facing a Draco Zombie that you want to use Vidofnir against anyway.

[Tables]

The terrain at Ch 16 isn't honestly worth mentioning...unless...unless on Ephraim's route, you have your GK/s go up up door through the bushes. The rest of the action takes place indoors.

Forgot that Ephraim starts in a different place. That does make a difference I suppose.

[Anouleth]

99% of the axes (especially the heavy ones) don't matter. It's all about being able to use Hand Axes for better ranged WT control. They never need the Brave Axe because they can use the Brave Lance, they never need the Devil Axe cause you can gain WEXP with the Steel Axe, etc. You're listing pro's and cons as if they all weigh equally, when in fact the only 2 things that matter are the 2 mov difference and axes. I think 2 more mov is better, personally.

There is also the matter of the promotion gains and the CON, which can be useful if you use some of the heavier units like Garcia. Paladins can rescue GKs, for instance.

Shame that Franz doesn't have 8 base CON. He certainly doesn't look like he should have the same CON as generic cavaliers, and it would let him rescue Gerik and Duessel post-promotion.