FE: Dawn of Darkness Feedback Thread

[Anacybele]

Huh... I wonder why I never noticed them then. o_O

[Life]

But of course. I was taught this all throughout school. I try my best to show, not tell. I know the difference too. Example:

When Ike saw Elincia holding their newborn son, he was overwhelmed with joy and happiness.

This is just telling me that Ike is overwhelmingly happy to be a father and that his wife and child are healthy.

When Ike saw Elincia holding their newborn son, he paused at the doorway, the corners of his mouth curving upward in a large grin. He gazed upon the sleeping baby in his wife's arms and then returned Elincia's own smiling gaze as she cradled the infant.

Now this version of that scene is not telling us, but SHOWING us that Ike is overjoyed about being a father by describing his gestures and body language. It's also even showing that Elincia is just as overjoyed by saying that she's smiling.

Granted, I may not do a good job of this all the time. Nobody's perfect, after all. But I definitely understand how to show and not tell.

Only saw this now. And actually... you kinda of have it backwards. As in, you're completely wrong.

The first example is great. Very simple and clean. The second example is explicitly drilling into my head (AKA telling me outright) that Ike is very happy. I don't need all that description.

Basically, the first example is showing and the second example is telling. First lets me imagine the scene. The second has a firm picture splattered on the side of my skull.

[Anacybele]

Only saw this now. And actually... you kinda of have it backwards. As in, you're completely wrong.

The first example is great. Very simple and clean. The second example is explicitly drilling into my head (AKA telling me outright) that Ike is very happy. I don't need all that description.

Basically, the first example is showing and the second example is telling. First lets me imagine the scene. The second has a firm picture splattered on the side of my skull.

I...am really confused. How is the second one not showing you how happy Ike is? The first one is outright stating Ike is happy. It's not telling us how that is so. Is he smiling, crying tears of joy, or what? Now my second example actually explains that he's happy by saying he's got a big smile on his face. It even goes further and shows Elincia's happiness.

Also, I apologize for leaving this hanging for so long. I hadn't noticed there was a reply.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Anacybele

[Party Moth]

I...am really confused. How is the second one not showing you how happy Ike is? The first one is outright stating Ike is happy. It's not telling us how that is so. Is he smiling, crying tears of joy, or what? Now my second example actually explains that he's happy by saying he's got a big smile on his face. It even goes further and shows Elincia's happiness.

Also, I apologize for leaving this hanging for so long. I hadn't noticed there was a reply.

When he says that the first one is showing, he means that it is up to the reader to discern exactly how Ike is happy. This leaves the scene up to interpretation.

Though I'm not a huge Shakespeare fan, one of the greatest advantages of Shakespeare's plays (and plays in general) is that it shows rather than tells. How lines of dialogue are given to the audience is up to the actors of that particular performance. One story can have many different connotations. I think this is something you should experiment with as sometimes the reader can garner something out of it you may have never intended (but may consider more thought provoking or even more fitting). Sometimes, as Hemingway has proved again and again, it is the simplest of words that leave the greatest impact.

Gonna get back to this story (I promise); just been too busy to sit down and read novels at the moment. Edited September 16, 2013 by Duels at Dawn

[Anacybele]

When he says that the first one is showing, he means that it is up to the reader to discern exactly how Ike is happy. This leaves the scene up to interpretation.

Though I'm not a huge Shakespeare fan, one of the greatest advantages of Shakespeare's plays (and plays in general) is that it shows rather than tells. How lines of dialogue are given to the audience is up to the actors of that particular performance. One story can have many different connotations. I think this is something you should experiment with as sometimes the reader can garner something out of it you may have never intended (but may consider more thought provoking or even more fitting). Sometimes, as Hemingway has proved again again, it is the simplest of words that leave the greatest impact.

Gonna get back to this story (I promise); just been too busy to sit down and read novels at the moment.

Oh, I understand now. I honestly still prefer knowing exactly how Ike is happy, though. Because then I know some more about his character. That is, how he shows he's happy.

I know that there is such a thing as too much description, but there's also a such thing as too little. And it never hurts to add a little bit of extra.

[Life]

Oh, I understand now. I honestly still prefer knowing exactly how Ike is happy, though. Because then I know some more about his character. That is, how he shows he's happy.

I know that there is such a thing as too much description, but there's also a such thing as too little. And it never hurts to add a little bit of extra.

There's actually no such thing as "too little description". That's just called a plot hole. And in any case, it's better to be on the side of less than more. Two golden rules of literature are "Less is more" (meaning that the less of a clear picture the audience receives, the more their imagination takes flight and gets to interpret things their own way) and "Too many cooks spoil the broth".

[Anacybele]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The less clear of a picture the reader gets, the more confused they'll probably be. That's what I believe.

[NobodiePichu]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The less clear of a picture the reader gets, the more confused they'll probably be. That's what I believe.

i think he means that you need to tone it down a bit because you explain it to much. exposition is good once in a while but shoving down the meaning of everything you write is more like a lecture and can really take you out of a story. i admit i havent read your fanfic at the current point of time but from what ive seen of what pepole have said your too wordy. ive read my good shair of decent writings and most of them dont keep explaining everything 2 seconds after it happens. in short cut down on the lecturing on why we should care and let are minds come up with something. save exposition for later not earlier

also personal rant and you dont have to respond if you really dont want to but the ike x elincia relationship really peeves and bores me.

[Anacybele]

Oh, I see now. I can't promise my co-author will get less "wordy" but I can say I'll try to be. Plus, even after he adds his two cents, I can alter it a bit once more.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Anacybele

[Life]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The less clear of a picture the reader gets, the more confused they'll probably be. That's what I believe.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It doesn't mean that you're right, though (you're not).

Let's try an exercise. Describe what your room looks like. However, you may only use 60 words maximum. Go.

[Anacybele]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It doesn't mean that you're right, though (you're not).

Let's try an exercise. Describe what your room looks like. However, you may only use 60 words maximum. Go.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong either, because an opinion is neither right nor wrong.

And no thank you, I don't wish to do such a silly thing. Plus, my room has way too much in it to give a clear picture, no matter how many words are used.

[Life]

It doesn't mean I'm wrong either, because an opinion is neither right nor wrong.

And no thank you, I don't wish to do such a silly thing. Plus, my room has way too much in it to give a clear picture, no matter how many words are used.

First of all, if I'm of the opinion of 1 + 2 = 4, I'm wrong. Opinions can 100% be wrong.

Next. The point of the whole exercise is for you to a) pick out the details that stand out the most (being concise and to the point) and b) allow me to imagine everything else (showing, not telling).

Let's go with an example. If you say something like "my desk is cluttered with school work and other things", I don't have a clear picture of what your desk looks like. But (this is the important part since it is related to creative writing) I DON'T WANT a clear picture of your desk. I want to imagine it for myself. Same idea with the reader. Any reader feels more involved when he gets to imagine things for himself.

It's not a crime to be vague. In fact, it makes things sound a lot better on paper to others. Let the reader imagine stuff for himself.

But like always, you STILL don't know how to take advice. And this is why your stuff comes out mediocre at best.

[Anacybele]

First of all, if I'm of the opinion of 1 + 2 = 4, I'm wrong. Opinions can 100% be wrong.

That isn't an opinion. Because it's wrong. Opinions can neither be wrong nor right. But you don't seem to want to get this, so I'm done with this silly argument.

Next. The point of the whole exercise is for you to a) pick out the details that stand out the most (being concise and to the point) and b) allow me to imagine everything else (showing, not telling).

Let's go with an example. If you say something like "my desk is cluttered with school work and other things", I don't have a clear picture of what your desk looks like. But (this is the important part since it is related to creative writing) I DON'T WANT a clear picture of your desk. I want to imagine it for myself. Same idea with the reader. Any reader feels more involved when he gets to imagine things for himself.

It's not a crime to be vague. In fact, it makes things sound a lot better on paper to others. Let the reader imagine stuff for himself.

But like always, you STILL don't know how to take advice. And this is why your stuff comes out mediocre at best.

It IS a crime to be too vague. Because if you're not clear enough, the reader will have absolutely no clue what's supposed to be going on at all. I'm not saying you have to tell the reader every single little detail, I'm saying that you should be a little less vague than you're telling me.

Also, I fail to see how "I'll try to be less wordy next time" is not taking advice.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Anacybele

[NobodiePichu]

That isn't an opinion. Because it's wrong. Opinions can neither be wrong nor right. But you don't seem to want to get this, so I'm done with this silly argument.

It IS a crime to be too vague. Because if you're not clear enough, the reader will have absolutely no clue what's supposed to be going on at all. I'm not saying you have to tell the reader every single little detail, I'm saying that you should be a little less vague than you're telling me.

Also, I fail to see how "I'll try to be less wordy next time" is not taking advice.

if some one is of the opinion that the sky is purple, grass is blue, and horses sing it doesnt mean there right and youd think them a crazy lunitic as well.

also being vauge is a great help in books. the immagination of one person will most likely allways be diffrent then to one persons. if you want to make sure the reader knows that the grass is green with a nice mountain in the far east you dont have to go on about the crevices and the particular way the grass sways in the wind. leave the reader to do most of the work for you.

[Life]

That isn't an opinion. Because it's wrong. Opinions can neither be wrong nor right. But you don't seem to want to get this, so I'm done with this silly argument.

It IS a crime to be too vague. Because if you're not clear enough, the reader will have absolutely no clue what's supposed to be going on at all. I'm not saying you have to tell the reader every single little detail, I'm saying that you should be a little less vague than you're telling me.

Also, I fail to see how "I'll try to be less wordy next time" is not taking advice.

You don't get it. You keep attacking arguments that I don't make. I'm saying "be vague". I'm not saying "overdo it".

Let's go back to my example. "My desk is cluttered with school work and other things." Watch how much info comes from it.

"Cluttered" - Well, it could be either messy or just filled up. My own personal take is decently organized but just has so many things in such a small space.

"School work" - What subject? How much work? Textbooks? Notebooks? Computer? I get to imagine for myself what your desk looks like. I don't want to know all the details because that turns a vibrating and moving picture into a boring still life.

"Other things" - Even more vague but that's the beauty of this term. Whatever I want to see is on your desk. Maybe there's nail polish. Or a stuffed monkey doll. Or lots and lots of books? Or all three maybe? The possibilities are endless and that excites a reader's mind.

That's the last advice I'll give because your attitude is "Ugh I'll do this so that you'll shut up". You might not think that you're saying that but that's how you come across as. It's frustrating to attempt to help you because you take it grudgingly and only after a lot of headaches on our side. If you know better, don't bother asking for help because it's not fun talking to someone with their head in the sand. If you actually want help, you have my Skype. Otherwise, I'm done.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Tricky Dick

[Anacybele]

if some one is of the opinion that the sky is purple, grass is blue, and horses sing it doesnt mean there right and youd think them a crazy lunitic as well.

Yes, I would, but those aren't opinions. But whatever, this is going nowhere, so I am done.

You don't get it. You keep attacking arguments that I don't make. I'm saying "be vague". I'm not saying "overdo it".

Let's go back to my example. "My desk is cluttered with school work and other things." Watch how much info comes from it.

"Cluttered" - Well, it could be either messy or just filled up. My own personal take is decently organized but just has so many things in such a small space.

"School work" - What subject? How much work? Textbooks? Notebooks? Computer? I get to imagine for myself what your desk looks like. I don't want to know all the details because that turns a vibrating and moving picture into a boring still life.

"Other things" - Even more vague but that's the beauty of this term. Whatever I want to see is on your desk. Maybe there's nail polish. Or a stuffed monkey doll. Or lots and lots of books? Or all three maybe? The possibilities are endless and that excites a reader's mind.

Yeah, I don't know any of that stuff, so I would hardly know what the room looks like at all. I want more details so I can paint a clearer picture in my head. Also, there's no monkey doll or nail polish or a ton of books on my desk, so I don't want my readers to imagine it that way. The writer decides what the setting looks like in his or her story, not the reader. I'm sorry, but I'm still not understanding how your idea is supposed to work well.

That's the last advice I'll give because your attitude is "Ugh I'll do this so that you'll shut up". You might not think that you're saying that but that's how you come across as. It's frustrating to attempt to help you because you take it grudgingly and only after a lot of headaches on our side. If you know better, don't bother asking for help because it's not fun talking to someone with their head in the sand. If you actually want help, you have my Skype. Otherwise, I'm done.

I don't recall having any attitude like that nor ever intending to have one. I don't know where you're getting this at all. And it's also not fun to have someone insult you like you are me. Also, I don't have your Skype. Why do you think I do?

[Life]

I don't recall having any attitude like that nor ever intending to have one. I don't know where you're getting this at all. And it's also not fun to have someone insult you like you are me. Also, I don't have your Skype. Why do you think I do?

We spoke about a year and a half ago. I finally punched it through your brain that people correcting you is not a personal attack. Ring a bell?

And claiming that I'm insulting you is an insult to my intelligence. I have been trying to help you for over a year and a half and you still stubbornly say "I want criticism but the only type of criticism that matters are only positive things".

Edited June 27, 2013 by Tricky Dick

[NobodiePichu]

Yeah, I don't know any of that stuff, so I would hardly know what the room looks like at all. I want more details so I can paint a clearer picture in my head. Also, there's no monkey doll or nail polish or a ton of books on my desk, so I don't want my readers to imagine it that way. The writer decides what the setting looks like in his or her story, not the reader. I'm sorry, but I'm still not understanding how your idea is supposed to work well.

I don't recall having any attitude like that nor ever intending to have one. I don't know where you're getting this at all. And it's also not fun to have someone insult you like you are me. Also, I don't have your Skype. Why do you think I do?

i dont think he was directly insulting you but telling you in a mocking manner that you dont take any advice to heart. an insult is say me telling you that you as writer are either inherintly incompetent, you as

a person are thick skulled, or your just a plain old idiot who cant comprehend geniunely good advice.

you need to understand that your writing for other pepole not for yourself. other pepole might not want to know every exact thing that is in a scene. one thing you have to understand that if you take writing seriously and want others to take your writing seriously then you have to be more receptive to aadvice but all i see is you pushing all of it away. no ones going to take you seriously if you dont atleast consider there advice seriously and even try it out.

if you allow the reader to do most of the work for you you cut down on editing, words and allow for a generaly more pleasent experince when reading. you can flesh out more ideas and more characters. i know you might think that if you explain everything to the letter readers will like it and have a better idea of what your saying but unless your writing a scientific novel, textbook, or report then its completly unnecessary. fiction stems from the right handed side of the brain the creative side and boring ties to reality is what i want the least when im reading a fantasy, pre industrial, war mongering society light novel. movies dissipoint because they can never compare to ones own imagination.

if you seriously insist that the way you write is the best possible method than i have no sympathy for you you pathetic sorry exscuse for a writer.

also im sure TD has his skype name on his profile page info for contacts

[Anacybele]

We spoke about a year and a half ago. I finally punched it through your brain that people correcting you is not a personal attack. Ring a bell?

And claiming that I'm insulting you is an insult to my intelligence. I have been trying to help you for over a year and a half and you still stubbornly say "I want criticism but the only type of criticism that matters are only positive things".

Actually. no it doesn't. And I never said such a ridiculous thing at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

ShinyPichu, you're certainly insulting me by calling me a pathetic excuse for a writer. Do you really expect me to listen when I'm treated that way?

[NobodiePichu]

Just hammiring the point down hon ; ]

besides i was just saying that in the case that my hunch that you dont even listen to my advice was right on the button [wich it was but thats not really a suprise.]

[eclipse]

Actually. no it doesn't. And I never said such a ridiculous thing at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

ShinyPichu, you're certainly insulting me by calling me a pathetic excuse for a writer. Do you really expect me to listen when I'm treated that way?

Check his name history. He's better known as Life Admiral.

[Anacybele]

Check his name history. He's better known as Life Admiral.

Oh, my bad. I didn't know you could check username history on this site.

[NobodiePichu]

Check his name history. He's better known as Life Admiral.

ah alright. thanks for the advice eclipse.

[Vapo]

Really, on the vagueness argument, it's very opinionated: some readers like having a very clear, precise image of what happens in the books. Some readers like to imagine what's there, co-operate on the story with the writer in your mind. Neither style is necessarily more popular, or better than the other. Books with either style can become best sellers: the same applies with fanfic (except to a lesser extent). I personally, like being able to imagine what goes on in the story more, however other readers may not.

Though, Anacybele, Life had a point (even though he said it in a bit of an arrogant tone), and looking past the rudeness, it's actually some pretty great advice in there. It's clear both of you prefer a different writing style here (from what I can see, Life likes to imagine it more, and Ana likes a more precise picture), and neither of you are right or wrong on that matter - though personally I feel it's a tiny bit too much description regardless of that fact.

@Ana:

"It IS a crime to be too vague. Because if you're not clear enough, the reader will have absolutely no clue what's supposed to be going on at all. I'm not saying you have to tell the reader every single little detail, I'm saying that you should be a little less vague than you're telling me."

As I've said, it's not. Most readers, instead of having no clue what's going on, would imagine something clearer BASED on the vagueness. Like with Life said: "I get to imagine for myself what your desk looks like. I don't want to know all the details because that turns a vibrating and moving picture into a boring still life." If you over-exaggerate on the description and describe it in detail TOO much, it plain becomes a bit dull, since it becomes less of a fantasy world and more of a non-fiction type style of writing.

[Anacybele]

Hrm, I see. I understand what you're saying, Vapo. I can see how one would prefer to imagine things more for themselves. But as you said, I like to have a more precise picture and this is part of the reason I like my co-author's style so much. He does exactly that, with beautiful description and imagery and all.

Maybe I can try a compromise here. Less wordiness than I normally would use, but not quite as vague as Life would normally prefer.

Thanks for being polite, yet critical. :)

Edited July 2, 2013 by Anacybele