Haradi Jews vs. Israel

[Life]

There's a bunch of woman who have become famous in the world of Israeli politics. I'll link you to articles about each of them.

Yocheved Horowitz

Na'ama Margolese - If you are going to read only one article, read this one.

Doron Matalon

The thing is, this topic isn't about Israeli politics. It's about the amount of blatant hypocrisy in the world.

Haradim Jews (beyond Ultra-Orthodox) are supposed to be extremely pious. They sit all day and study Torah (the Bible) and that's all they do. They don't work or contribute to society in any way whatsoever. They just live off of handouts from the government. And these people are abusing women like this? Especially an 8 year old girl. Eight years old. Surrounded by 20ish men and spat on simply because of the way she was dressed on her way to fucking school. And she was religious too.

I could go on about the riots and problems that these people are causing but no need. The articles speak for themselves. Just look under the national section of Haaretz if you want to read more.

What are your thoughts on situations like this? What should be done (realistically, if you post something along the lines of "the world should be full of sunshine and rainbows", don't bother contributing here since you're being purposely naive) about it from both ends?

Personally, I've never liked Haradi Jews and this pisses me off. One of these days, they're going to kill someone over the way that they dress and the government is going to declare them a terrorist sect. Which means the end of Haradis. Which means a civil war. One that Israel really can't afford to have, especially with Iran acting the way they are.

[eclipse]

IMO, I think the first one does a better job of outlining the problem. The second one and third ones are symptoms of it.

How are they qualifying for the "government handouts"? As an outsider looking in, the logical solution seems to be to force these people to work, but my gut tells me that this isn't going to solve the problem outright. Does the Torah allow for killing a woman if she's not dressed properly?

[Life]

Does the Torah allow for killing a woman if she's not dressed properly?

Are you kidding? The Torah (and Judaism in general) is all about sanctity of life. You can break any law in the Torah simply to save a person's life. There is only one nation that Jews are allowed to kill and that's Amalek (basically anyone who tries to kill the Jews are descendants of Amalek).

In fact, there's no rule about modesty to that extreme whatsoever. It's all teachings from it and that's where it gets fucked up.

[eclipse]

So if that hypothetical woman were to die because of the way she was dressed, wouldn't that directly violate the Torah?

[Life]

So if that hypothetical woman were to die because of the way she was dressed, wouldn't that directly violate the Torah?

For them to act this way in the first place is directly violating the Torah. They just become the ultimate hypocrites in the world if they pull such a stunt.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Cocaine

[eclipse]

For them to act this way in the first place is directly violating the Torah. They just become the ultimate hypocrites in the world if they pull such a stunt.

Hmmm, okay. Thanks.

I reread the first article, and I think the government withdrawing support from them might alleviate the problem, if only a little bit.

[Life]

I reread the first article, and I think the government withdrawing support from them might alleviate the problem, if only a little bit.

I think so too. The president (Shimon Perez) has already started calling for the public to join the rallies against Haradim Jews. This is starting to become a really big problem in this country.

[Excellen Browning]

Read some of it, thought lol what the fuck that's illegal in my country and then stopped reading it.

[Hero]

What really gets under my skin is that media outlets controlled by Israel's enemies are getting so much meat out of this story when women in their countries who are judged "promiscuous" by their standards have it 100,000 times harder. The character assassinations against the Israeli government and Israeli society are gaining momentum with every month.

If I hadn't lived there for six months as an adult and I still read as much al-Jazeera and left-wing news sources as I do, I would think it was the most backwards, bloodthirsty and racist state in our time rather than one of the most educated, innovative and progressive societies in Asia or indeed the world. The truth is that, at least outside of Palestinian-controlled areas, multiculturalism is strong and people respect others of different backgrounds to a greater degree than I see in the US. If a few non-Arab Israelis hate all Arabs or some Arab Palestinians hate all non-Arab Israelis, they know better than to express this in public in areas where regular law enforcement operates because they will all have to go to work together in the morning. When I was there I hitchhiked a lot, often with Arabs, and I visited Egypt and Jordan and never encountered any hostility toward me, even though I could be identified as a Westerner or Russian with one look because of my fair coloring.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Hero

[Rehab]

Thanks for linking those articles Coke, I can only imagine how much longer it would have taken for me to hear this much about the issue without them. The Haradi doing the active offending seem to be acting like certified tunnel-visioned and possibly dangerous zealots, to be sure, but some of the first article's suppositions about media/majority response might be just as frightening, to me. I'd hate to think that nobody feels like they can do anything to combat hateful intimidation, even when they know it's harmful and not supported by the majority.

One thing I'm not sure I could fully distinguish is whether people may be inactive because they're afraid of the Haradi, themselves, or because they think Israel as a whole has bigger problems and so end up sweeping this under the rug. I'm worried there's some culture clash in my interpretation, since I'm used to hearing that I'm supposed to bite, kick and scream to the bitter end if I'm either being oppressed or witnessing oppression. That makes me wonder if I'm failing to understand the rules and atmosphere of Israel, which I'm assuming has values that might be better served by keeping this kind of inner pseudo-religious conflict quiet, but no matter how I look at it part of me wants to say "What are you doing throw the bums out"

I also hadn't expected something like spouse-hunting to have a significant role here:

He can't vent his opinions in the Haredi press. "If I write in Yated Neeman, I'll be immediately thrown out of the community. The community is terrorized by way of such issues as matchmaking. After all, everyone has to arrange marriages for his children. But if you say a word or two in favor of secular people, they won't want to match anyone to your children. So you have a responsibility. The upshot is that your average Haredi is captive. Therefore only those handful of people who are not submissive can do something that might lead to change."

That sounds kind of alien to me, makes me wonder whether the Haradi directly have power over those newspapers or whether it's impossible to draw attention to yourself at all without backlash, even from people who agree with you. Sounds like it'd be a bitch to get organized opposition together in that condition.

"All this has done is strengthen the extremists, because the attack was on us as a Haredi public, and it was brutal," Glasner says. "Right now, people feel they are under heavy artillery fire, that the discussion has gone beyond the legitimate. In this state we cannot respond to the issue at hand, and that places the entire public reluctantly on the extremists' side. Even if there is a sane public that opposes segregated buses, they cannot speak out right now." Glasner adds, "It would be like proposing a vote of no-confidence during wartime. After the war, as it were, we'll set up a committee of inquiry. And we'll do the reckoning ourselves."

Getting the feeling that the atmosphere might be kinda "if you're not with us, you're against us (read: Israel)" with a lot of things these extremists are up to. That is scary, and if true, I hope it fades.

Edit- thanks for posting direct experience, Hero, that's a relief.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Rehab

[Life]

What really gets under my skin is that media outlets controlled by Israel's enemies are getting so much meat out of this story when women in their countries who are judged "promiscuous" by their standards have it 100,000 times harder. The character assassinations against the Israeli government and Israeli society are gaining momentum with every month.

Since I live in Israel currently (and am an Israeli soldier), I don't exactly have access to anti-Israel outlets to know what's being said. Mind helping a bro out over here?

[buttmuncher.ops]

Haradim Jews (beyond Ultra-Orthodox) are supposed to be extremely pious. They sit all day and study Torah (the Bible) and that's all they do.

I didn't read any of the articles but this part of your post stands out to me because of a story they tell young kids in Sunday school as a part of a lesson. Long story short:

A man would sit and pray to Allah five times a day, practicing peace, meditation & fasting and nothing else. His wife would cook and bring his meals to him, his children would go to school and local people would come visit him to witness his discipline. However, he ignored all for the sake of praying.

After the teacher finished the story, she asked the class (of 10 year olds and younger) if they thought the man went to heaven, to which they all immediately responded with yes. She promptly told them that the man went to hell and in response to the confusion she stated it was because the man did not take care of or provide for his family and wasted away his life ignoring life (a gift not to be ignored.)

A little harsh for young kids I agree, but the overall theme is that practicing the simplicities of your religion and only that is not enough; one must also take care of family, friends and provide for the welfare of their fellow man to live a good life. If things are truly as you say then I feel that my previous sentence is probably the main reason people want to persecute this particular sect: people probably feel that they aren't contributing enough to the society they are a part of.

While this may or may not be true, I feel that judging a person's worth or contribution to a society falls under the opinions category and the only way to end hatred is with understanding. Maybe a little naive, but that's what I believe.

[Rehab]

I don't object to your point, but I'd suggest reading the articles to understand why the Haradi are catching shit.

[buttmuncher.ops]

I got the gist from the OP, they contribute nothing to society and attempt to force their own views (such as what's proper attire) on others that don't follow their doctrine. I'm just bringing a semi devil's advocate attempt to the table that maybe the sect was persecuted first and as such acted out, starting a cycle of hatred that could spiral out of control.

[Life]

I got the gist from the OP, they contribute nothing to society and attempt to force their own views (such as what's proper attire) on others that don't follow their doctrine. I'm just bringing a semi devil's advocate attempt to the table that maybe the sect was persecuted first and as such acted out, starting a cycle of hatred that could spiral out of control.

Your argument falls null and void when they start spitting on young children. The Torah specifically says that you should not treat others as if they are beneath you because you are brothers. I'm specifically speaking about Joseph when he held a position of power in Egypt. He did not treat his brothers as if they were beneath him just because he was second in control and they sold him into slavery and whatnot.

This is where the hypocrisy lies. Derech Eretz (respect for people) is one of the most essential parts of Judaism. And the Haradim seem to have forgotten that.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Honestly, the Haradi are practicing just another form of religious extremism, and it really is no surprise that it's causing problems. I think the problem is that, in general, society tends to be far more willing to accept people doing terrible things if it can be rationalized as part of their religion, which is of course absurd. So yeah, I agree that taking away their government funding would be an important step, but it's also important for it to be made known that what they're doing is unnacceptable, and that it doesn't matter whether it's their religion or not.

[Life]

Honestly, the Haradi are practicing just another form of religious extremism, and it really is no surprise that it's causing problems. I think the problem is that, in general, society tends to be far more willing to accept people doing terrible things if it can be rationalized as part of their religion, which is of course absurd. So yeah, I agree that taking away their government funding would be an important step, but it's also important for it to be made known that what they're doing is unnacceptable, and that it doesn't matter whether it's their religion or not.

Here's where I start playing Devil's Advocate.

The Haradim technically haven't done anything wrong in the eyes of the law. Why should all of them suffer for the stupidity of a few in Beit Shemesh and other places?

[Defeatist Elitist]

Here's where I start playing Devil's Advocate.

The Haradim technically haven't done anything wrong in the eyes of the law. Why should all of them suffer for the stupidity of a few in Beit Shemesh and other places?

Well if you're asking me, I don't believe any religious organizations should inherently recieve government funding though I highly doubt that most people in Israel would agree with me.

Basically, have they done anything to merit the funding in the first place?

Regardless though, by not denouncing the actions of the extremely radical Haradim, the more moderate ones are sort of complicit in what they've done (though I understand from those articles that a few have denounced their actions).

Edited December 30, 2011 by Defeatist Elitist

[buttmuncher.ops]

Sects that practice only the simplest and self-favorable of tenets tend to ignore the ones that won't allow them to force their views on others. It's the same way in Islam.

It takes a different type of upbringing for a person to truly want to understand another person, regardless of race, religion or fear. I'm not arguing for or against this particular sect, all I'm saying is that any and all types of persecution, whether originating from small extremist sect or from majority society, could be prevented if people spent some internal effort to just understand each other and respect a person for who they are.

I don't agree and I don't disagree that they're not contributing to society. They can do whatever they want to do and I'll respect that. But if people start harming each other collectively in the name of their sect / majority, each side needs to understand the other in order to prevent harm. The sect has to respect that people will dress differently than they will and the majority has to respect the sect's commitment to only practicing religious doctrines and nothing else. People are entitled to their beliefs and you may try to convince them differently with words or actions as long as it doesn't involve hateful language or violence.

Life isn't black and white and we can't afford to ignore the shades that make us uncomfortable lest we lose sight of color.

[Snowy_One]

Wow... That's just... sad. I mean, it's far better than being stoned to death, but still... The punishment even existing is shameful. As an American though I can't see much of what can be done beyond voicing public disapproval and possibly pulling their funding, but voicing disapproval won't result in change of necessity and pulling funding is... like punishing a child for something he didn't understand was wrong. Still... it only took one voice being raised to start the civil rights movement, so speak out against it I guess?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Random Tolerance Stuff

The problem is that the Haradis in this instance are the ones not being tolerant -- I mean, spitting on a woman for dressing slightly differently than they would like or segregating buses because they're taking advantage of the situation. I could make this point akin (although this example is a bit extreme compared to the Haradis, but I have no better examples atm) to saying that you should have been tolerant to the views of the KKK in the early- to mid-1900s because they are entitled to their own view of life and condemning them is wrong, despite the fact that allowing them to exist ultimately leads to more intolerance. Making informed and fair judgments about a group of people based on their actions and beliefs is not wrong -- you can't paint all such judgments with such a broad brush and call it intolerence, because sometimes it's just a simple combination of logic and personal morality.

I think, reading this article, that it's obvious that Israel feels great pressure to stay unified under the threat of common extinction by the hands of Iran, and the more radical sects to impose their vision of what Israel should be. It's the same old song and dance that's been done for...well, forever, like when a country goes under martial law in times of crises. You could point to hundreds of books and movies that address this same issue: Fear drives many people to compromise their own beliefs in favor of what they think will ensure their survival, and while they may personally be against the series of events, they dare not speak out against it. And once the sects get in charge, they also get the power of authority on their side. I bet the government backs them simply because they think they'll anger their constituents if they don't or will look like they don't support the Torah or something akin to that. It's a bit of a vicious self-sustaining cycle.

I hardly believe that most Isrealis agree with segregation and spitting on 8-year-olds, but Cocaine hinted at their viewpoint -- they feel like they can't overthrow the current religious regime because a civil war (or hell, even a civil conflict) will be the sign of weakness that ultimately leads to the end of the Jewish state. And if you think I'm wrong, look at that first article...how many anonymous quotes are in there, despite the fact that what they said is hardly controversial?

Realistically, it may be entirely possible that the Islamic states that want Israel to disappear off the map could win without even declaring direct war with the country. The threat of destruction may cause the state to rot and crumble from within if the Isrealis aren't careful -- and no military support from countries like America can prevent that from happening; only the Isreali people themselves can.

Of course, maybe I'm just blowing this out of propotion. It's hard to make a truly informed decision without actually being there.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[buttmuncher.ops]

i'm glad you read my post with the same care that you quoted it with because you obviously missed the part where i wrote about communicating and understanding with non hateful words and non violence. gg serious discussion being belittled

[Rehab]

Come again? I thought it was a good post, the similarity of my opinion not notwithstanding <:

[Life]

i'm glad you read my post with the same care that you quoted it with because you obviously missed the part where i wrote about communicating and understanding with non hateful words and non violence. gg serious discussion being belittled

Actually blackie, KoT's also right (you are too). Lemme explain why.

First off, for the case in Beit Shemesh with Na'ama, about 20 or so Haradi men took the time to walk up to her and spit on her while she was doing something innocent like walking to school. They went out of their way just to belittle a little girl simply because she wasn't dressed to their standards. If there's a circle of violence happening, it's starting from their side, not anyone else's. It's not that they're misunderstood, they're purposely treating other women like shit because those women are in their eyesight.

However, you're right about a circle of violence and the fact that the hate is two ways. There's the demonstrations, the clashes and that one incident at a Burger Ranch where a cashier publicly insulted 3 Haradi kids. He got fired for it, of course. Happened earlier this week and I think it was also in Beit Shemesh.

But don't try to claim that this is a case of the two sides misunderstanding each other and hating them for it. Both sides know where the other is coming from.

As for why Haradim get funding... I wish I could answer that. I don't think they deserve it either but I don't know why they get it.

[Aere]

Radicals of any means (Politics, religion, etc.) will ALWAYS receive attention. Something different cannot be left alone by the populace. It must be protected or harmed or affected in some way, because that's just human nature. If one is seeking for attention, he doesn't act as his peers do; he does something different.

The Haradim won't be destroyed (obviously), and all the fuss about religion all over the world just garners even more attention. If somebody intervened, they couldn't alter the religion either, because that defeats the purpose of the religion. That leaves helping the Haradim as the most obvious option. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but that's how the world works.