Lyle's Character review topic.

[Ether]

Nice reviews Lyle,it's nice to see someone else who likes Ilyana,we're sort of lacking...anyway,so next is your Laguz PT right?

[Florete]

You really shouldn't give people plus or minus for being forced/competing with someone who's forced. Being forced on the map doesn't mean you have to use that character. Like with Sanaki, I've her twice out of about 5 runs of the game, so Calill shouldn't be scored lower because Sanaki is forced for two maps.

Oh, and why the hell does Rhys have a higher score than Laura? Both Saint versions suck, but the male version is worse, and Laura has early game utility, whereas Rhys is weak in an overpowered team.

[Mufasa]

Nice reviews Lyle,it's nice to see someone else who likes Ilyana,we're sort of lacking...anyway,so next is your Laguz PT right?

Yeah. Next is my laguz playthrough. Thought there are a lot of laguz to cover.

Plus I still need to do the two reavers.

You really shouldn't give people plus or minus for being forced/competing with someone who's forced. Being forced on the map doesn't mean you have to use that character. Like with Sanaki, I've her twice out of about 5 runs of the game, so Calill shouldn't be scored lower because Sanaki is forced for two maps.

Oh, and why the hell does Rhys have a higher score than Laura? Both Saint versions suck, but the male version is worse, and Laura has early game utility, whereas Rhys is weak in an overpowered team.

Calill isn't scored lower than Sanaki though. And if another unit is forced of the same class, it does diminish the value of other units. You don't bring a second desk to a job if you've already got one there.

-Rhys has the potential for a boost from Por.

-He's somewhat battle ready from the moment you get him, where Laura needs to be protected for the entirety of part 1 depending on how much you abuse.

-He has better availability as well.

Laura is a utility, but she's also a liability. And in a team like the DB, where everyone is a liability, you have to weigh the pros and cons of a unit before using them. Sometimes the cons will outweigh the pros like with Leonardo, and sometimes the opposite is true. Like with Aran.

But it really all depends on personal preferece.

[Kintenbo]

LOL at Oliver being the most hated Saint. The dude is amazing personalitywise. and appearancewise He isn't good as Laura, though, and him and Rhys are iffy.

[Mufasa]

LOL at Oliver being the most hated Saint. The dude is amazing personalitywise. and appearancewise He isn't good as Laura, though, and him and Rhys are iffy.

Laura takes a lot of work to raise at the beginning. And she turns out pretty good when she's good, but when Rhys shows up, he's already at an acceptable level. So I think he's better suited for the job than Laura.

But again, it doesn't really matter because of Micaiah.

[Kintenbo]

Laura takes a lot of work to raise at the beginning. And she turns out pretty good when she's good, but when Rhys shows up, he's already at an acceptable level. So I think he's better suited for the job than Laura.

But again, it doesn't really matter because of Micaiah.

But what's with the Oliver being the most hated thing? This is the only forum I've been to that had any significant signs of Oliver hate. (Xanatha, CGV, Black Luster Soldier come to mind)

[Mufasa]

But what's with the Oliver being the most hated thing? This is the only forum I've been to that had any significant signs of Oliver hate. (Xanatha, CGV, Black Luster Soldier come to mind)

I actually like Oliver myself.

I think people still hold grudges from Path of Radiance. And he is kinda hideously ugly.

But I think he's pretty cool. Though quite insane. Stat wise he's pretty inferior. There's no way to sugarcoat that.

[_____]

Bah, PoR boosts. You should give a score with the boosts, and one for stats without the boosts, for people like me, who lack PoR.

[Mufasa]

Bah, PoR boosts. You should give a score with the boosts, and one for stats without the boosts, for people like me, who lack PoR.

I suppose. But it's the oppurtunity that helps. They have the potential to be better or more useful than the others. That's what really counts.

Plus, it's tedious enough to go through the game using all the characters at least once. I don't want to have to play through another few times.

[Florete]

Calill isn't scored lower than Sanaki though. And if another unit is forced of the same class, it does diminish the value of other units. You don't bring a second desk to a job if you've already got one there.

-Rhys has the potential for a boost from Por.

-He's somewhat battle ready from the moment you get him, where Laura needs to be protected for the entirety of part 1 depending on how much you abuse.

-He has better availability as well.

Laura is a utility, but she's also a liability. And in a team like the DB, where everyone is a liability, you have to weigh the pros and cons of a unit before using them. Sometimes the cons will outweigh the pros like with Leonardo, and sometimes the opposite is true. Like with Aran.

But it really all depends on personal preferece.

About Calill: It's different for Micaiah, because she is forced to the map and statistically superior to the Saints, easily. Sanaki is only forced to the final chapter, not to the maps. Sanaki is pretty horrible anyway with her base 2 strength; she can be doubled by generals. It's like with Sothe. You don't skip out on Volke because you have Sothe, do you?

For Laura and Rhys: Wanna take this to the debate forum?

[Mufasa]

About Calill: It's different for Micaiah, because she is forced to the map and statistically superior to the Saints, easily. Sanaki is only forced to the final chapter, not to the maps. Sanaki is pretty horrible anyway with her base 2 strength; she can be doubled by generals. It's like with Sothe. You don't skip out on Volke because you have Sothe, do you?

For Laura and Rhys: Wanna take this to the debate forum?

I still gave Calill a better score than Sanaki. Though strength doesn't really do much for Sanaki, her base does suck. As does her growth. And Sanaki can be useful in some cases. She's not an awful unit. So she does the job with Rexflame fine.

Though your example with Sothe and Volke does touch a chord. (Don't think to much about that analogy, I didn't.) Though Volke has more history with me than Calill. So I'm more inclined to take him than I am her. But I see your point. If given a choice between the three fire sages, Calill would be my first choice. Though to be honest, I'm usually not too keen on the mage/bishop characters, and prefer to take swordmasters, or Halberders and such. Which is why I would take Volke over Calill.

As for the debate, it's tempting, it would be interesting to say the least, but I'm pretty sure I'd get thrashed.

And of course, I'm not saying that Laura is bad at all, I just think that Rhys is more useful. Stat wise, Laura may be better, but as far as usefullness, I believe that Rhys has the upperhand.

[Florete]

I still gave Calill a better score than Sanaki. Though strength doesn't really do much for Sanaki, her base does suck. As does her growth. And Sanaki can be useful in some cases. She's not an awful unit. So she does the job with Rexflame fine.

Though your example with Sothe and Volke does touch a chord. (Don't think to much about that analogy, I didn't.) Though Volke has more history with me than Calill. So I'm more inclined to take him than I am her. But I see your point. If given a choice between the three fire sages, Calill would be my first choice. Though to be honest, I'm usually not too keen on the mage/bishop characters, and prefer to take swordmasters, or Halberders and such. Which is why I would take Volke over Calill.

As for the debate, it's tempting, it would be interesting to say the least, but I'm pretty sure I'd get thrashed.

And of course, I'm not saying that Laura is bad at all, I just think that Rhys is more useful. Stat wise, Laura may be better, but as far as usefullness, I believe that Rhys has the upperhand.

Rexflame weighs 13. Without abuse, she's still losing AS, even though it gives +3. And yes, Calill is better. Calill might be the best Archsage for Endgame overall, though they aren't good for Endgame in general as you mentioned.

You won't know until you try.

That would be the entire point of debating them. I would say Laura has the upperhand.

[Mufasa]

Rexflame weighs 13. Without abuse, she's still losing AS, even though it gives +3. And yes, Calill is better. Calill might be the best Archsage for Endgame overall, though they aren't good for Endgame in general as you mentioned.

You won't know until you try.

That would be the entire point of debating them. I would say Laura has the upperhand.

Actually I was thinking something similar about Calill.

But yes. Arcsages, or any magic users, have a hard time killing some of the endgame people. Half the dragons are quite resistant, at least half the people in the first part of the engame are bishops or mages. You should probably only have one extra sage if even that. Sanaki and Micaiah can handle the magic user job on their own. Despite their diffeciences.

And I guess what the hell? The worst thing that could happen is I'm owned in the worst case of humilation since Richard Nixon vs JFK, all my friends ditch me and I'm left on the street and die of nuemonia.

Which isn't that bad considering that it could be worse.

So I'm game. I have to read up on the rules of the debate though. And it's fairly late. Should we start tommorow? I have off tuesday.

[Florete]

I'll open the debate. You can take all the time you need to make a reply (Just don't wait a week). As for rules... I'll propose some and you can see if you agree.

[Mufasa]

I'll open the debate. You can take all the time you need to make a reply (Just don't wait a week). As for rules... I'll propose some and you can see if you agree.

Alright. Sounds fair.

*Puts on his John McCain debating hat.*

Hm...On second thought.

*Throws John McCain debating hat across the room. Puts on Obama hat instead.*

[Florete]

I'd rather it didn't deviate too much from what are normal standards, but some things must be noted:

Transfer bonuses: Yes, Rhys has the advantage of potential transfer bonuses. However, performance aside from these must also be considered, since not everyone owns PoR. Furthermore, only the stats he's likely to cap should even be considered to be transferred. This means Magic, Skill, and Resistance, and maybe Speed. A speed transfer means almost nothing though, as it has a rather low chance to cap in PoR. The other 3 are almost definitely capping.

Bonus experience: The potential to effectively use BEXP can definitely be considered here. I assume you know how it works.

Difficulty: I've only played Normal (and lolEasy), and I assume you'd prefer to debate normal. Hard mode can be considered, but in no way definite.

Average stats: I don't put huge emphasis on them, but they're a nice guideline. BEXP will end up throwing them out the window, anyway.

Battle saving: We aren't doing any battle save abuse to get better level ups, ever.

Performance throughout the entire game matters, even endgame, but with less emphasis there.

Other than that, I'm good to go. If you ok this, I'll kick things off.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mufasa]

I'd rather it didn't deviate too much from what are normal standards, but some things must be noted:

Transfer bonuses: Yes, Rhys has the advantage of potential transfer bonuses. However, performance aside from these must also be considered, since not everyone owns PoR. Furthermore, only the stats he's likely to cap should even be considered to be transferred. This means Magic, Skill, and Resistance, and maybe Speed. A speed transfer means almost nothing though, as it has a rather low chance to cap in PoR. The other 3 are almost definitely capping.

Bonus experience: The potential to effectively use BEXP can definitely be considered here. I assume you know how it works.

Difficulty: I've only played Normal (and lolEasy), and I assume you'd prefer to debate normal. Hard mode can be considered, but in no way definite.

Average stats: I don't put huge emphasis on them, but they're a nice guideline. BEXP will end up throwing them out the window, anyway.

Battle saving: We aren't doing any battle save abuse to get better level ups, ever.

Performance throughout the entire game matters, even endgame, but with less emphasis there.

Other than that, I'm good to go. If you ok this, I'll kick things off.

That all seems fine and fair. Though to be honest, I've only been playing easy mode when I've used the two of them. It makes using specific characters...well, easier.

[Florete]

That all seems fine and fair. Though to be honest, I've only been playing easy mode when I've used the two of them. It makes using specific characters...well, easier.

You know what normal mode is like, so that shouldn't put you in too bad of a position. I'll go make my opening statement.

*Cracks knuckles*

[Mufasa]

You know what normal mode is like, so that shouldn't put you in too bad of a position. I'll go make my opening statement.

*Cracks knuckles*

True.

What have I gotten myself into?

Anyway, you're gonna make the topic in the debate forum right?

[Florete]

True.

What have I gotten myself into?

Anyway, you're gonna make the topic in the debate forum right?

Already did. ;)

[Mufasa]

Already did. ;)

Lol. I see that.

I'll wait for you to post your argument first. I should be getting to bed soon. I have to get up early.

[Killer Poleax]

But of course he's a slaughter fest! He's a motherfucking MURDERER!

For me, he dodges almost everything, doubles almost everybody, and kills everybody!

Yeah, this is how he is for me too. He always turns out good for me and just DESTROYS the whole map! His strength is just incredible and he dominates everything. He doesn't even need criticals or Colossus against the majority of enemies nor does he need skills like Adept, vantage, whatever cause he gets it done. I've never had to use bexp to make him good. He's just badass and is my fave character!

[Mufasa]

Volug

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Howl, Savage, Cancel, Renewal, Parity

Weapon: SS level fang

Support: Nolan

It’s hard to judge laguz by beorc standards. In the previous game, laguz stayed transformed longer, and you had no real control over when they transformed. Now you have the freedom to do what you want with the laguz transformation, but at the cost of the time transformed itself. But enough about that, let’s talk about Volug. Volug is the first laguz you get your grimy little hands on. He is a member of the wolf tribe, which is a brand new form of Laguz from Hatari. Of course, you only have Nailah’s word that there’s a whole civilization out there, for all we know the two we meet could be the only wolves. When you get Volug, for the entirety of part one, he is half-transformed using wildheart. Which is actually one of the laguz’s worst enemies. It only raises the stats of the laguz by 1.5 times the current stats, and it halves exp. You might almost thing that there’s no point to using Volug, as he won’t gain anything. But there is one reason that you should use him in battle. The main reason is that it increases Volug’s weapon level. One major key in training a laguz, is to get their weapon level up. Which is sometimes difficult to do, but it helps a laguz to get better. Volug is hard to use in part one because of his deficiencies, and then it shows that you didn’t train him when part 3 rolls around, but if you did spend some time on him in part one, it helps. Volug is a fairly decent unit if you train him well, and he can help out a lot in some of the later levels of part 3.

I’m gonna try to overlook the fact that the laguz are laguz, and judge them on a different scale. Since it’s not their fault they have the gauge. When they’re transformed, they’re better than beorc, when they are untransformed, they’re worse than beorc. On the laguz scale, I give Volug 7/10. He’s the only other wolf laguz, so there’s no one to compare him too, and he’s the only laguz on Micaiah’s team, excluding Maurim for a brief period of time. Volug does a decent job, and can help in very tight situations for part 1.

Maurim

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Resolve, Roar, Miracle, Wrath

Weapon: SS level fang

Support: Caineghis

Maurim is the second laguz you get (as well as Vika of course) and he has a slight advantage over Volug because 1. He can transform and untransform, 2. His stats are doubled when he transforms, because of the lack of halfshift, and 3. Because of the possible boost from Por. Now, when I played Por, I used Maurim a lot. He was a great unit, even with the demi-band lowering his prowess. He still did really good for me. And due to my broken playthrough from Por (and using my handy dandy Action replay) Maurim comes in with extremely high stats, and almost, capped in many areas. In fact, by level 30, he was capped in everything but HP and Luck. However, there is the case of the low availability. Of the three members of Tormod’s little group, Maurim has the easiest time keeping up with your other members because of his sheer power. Of all the tigers, Maurim is my favorite. Mostly because of personal reasons. But he’s the easiest to get to cap everything for me.

So I give Maurim a 8/10 on the laguz scale. His low availability hurts him, but if you want to use him, you won’t have trouble making him good.

Lethe

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Adept, Gamble, Pavise, Guard

Weapon: SS level Claw

Support: Ranulf

Lethe is the first cat laguz you’ll get in the game. Now, before I get into this, there’s been a lot of hate on Lethe and her sister, Lyre. I never really got the reason for all the hate, but I think it went something along the lines of low str. Of the feline sisters, Lethe is better. Considering that the pair is almost exactly the same, even in appearance, Lethe has the advantage because of the boost from Por. And because she has higher availability. The method for raising laguz works well with Lethe, and anything she doesn’t cap on her own, can be made up for in BEXP. After playing through the game using the two, (Three if you include Ranulf.) I though that I would dread using them, and that they would be the biggest pain in the ass since the creation of ass, but I’ve found that they aren’t. I’ll get into further detail when I get to Lyre.

As for Lethe, I give her a 7/10 on the laguz scale. She’s not as bad as people make her out to be. And she can be quite useful when she starts out.

Mordecai

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Smite, Provoke, Roar, Pass, Savior

Weapon: SS level Fang

Support: Skrimir

Mordecai is the second tiger you come across in the game, and he appears in the order I place him in as far as tigers are concerned. He starts out at a fairly low level of 16, though with the boost from Por, he’s very well nourished. Though it doesn’t matter too much, because of the limitations of Laguz level up. Anyway, Mordecai is very useful as a temporary tank, and will help to get you out of some sticky situations, if he’s available to do so. He has some trouble leveling up, but he does gain stats in the appropriate places (Hp, STR, DEF), unlike a certain other tiger that will be mentioned later.

As for Mordecai himself, he deserves a 7/10 on the laguz scale. He’s hard to start, but when he does, he keeps going, if slowly. And he’ll be a tank when he’s needed to be.

Lyre

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Howl, Vantage, Adept, Imbune, Miracle

Weapon: SS level claw

Support: Kyza.

Now. Here’s the biggie. A lot of people claim, that Lyre is the worst unit in the game (other than Gareth.) And I’m here to tell you, that you are flat out wrong. Lyre starts out low leveled, and even for that level she’s at, undernourished. It takes a lot of work to get her to an acceptable level, with acceptable stats, but it’s possible. A lot of people complain about the str of the cat twins. But I think that’s just because people are stupid. Not every unit can be a monster with amazing str growths. Lethe, and Lyre specialize in speed and skill. For them, str is not so important, so, you counter that with BEXP. Just like you would for any other unit who lacks in Skill or speed. I managed to cap the str of both the cats, which ends up at 36. Which when compared to Sothe, is 8 more points. Another reason people might complain about the laguz str, is because their claws aren’t strong enough. Well, that’s easily countered by raising the weapon level of the laguz. Which is simple to do if you plan for it. In the end, the claw for the cat laguz ends up with 18MT, which is the same as Sothe’s Baselard. So. What we’ve established is, that Lethe and Lyre, have the potential to be even stronger than Sothe. So, either people need to stop complaining about the cat twins, or stop trying to defend Sothe and his weakass.

As for Lyre, I give her a 6.5/10 on the laguz scale. She’s not all that bad, though she is a challenge to use. If you’re looking for a challenge, you can’t go wrong with Lethe. (Well, you CAN go wrong. But that’s the point of the challenge.)

Kyza

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Quickclaw, Counter, Pavise, Nullify, Vantage

Weapon: SS level Fang

Support: Lyre

If there were ever to be a unit that I would hate, simply because he’s a laguz, It would be Kyza. Kyza....he’s hard for me to like, but it’s hard for me to hate him. Of all the beast laguz, he gave me the most trouble. In some areas he gained quickly, like Magic, and luck, and speed, and resistance. But in the areas you expect a tiger to thrive, Hp, STR, and Def, he faltered. It was quite close that he was able to cap them all. I had to use a Energy drop to get him a chance to cap STR. Counter is a good skill for him to have, because he gets injured quite a bit. When compared to the other tigers, Maurim is already way better and Mordecai you get more satisfaction from using, and he’s easier to use. Kyza will lose out to the other tigers, because he is harder to use, and the others are available in Por. So you’ll have an emotional attachment to them.

Kyza is probably my least favorite of the beast laguz. I give him a 5/10 on the laguz scale. He’s not terrible, but when you have other laguz that are better available, and when you have a bunch of great Beorc available as well, Kyza will more than likely be benched.

Ranulf

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Rend, Quickclaw, Daunt

Weapon: SS level claw

Support: Lethe

Ranulf is probably the most used of all the laguz. One, because he’s forced to be used in a lot of the part three chapters, and two, because he has a lot of fangirls. Of the three cat laguz, he has the best str growths, and for the level he’s at, he’s well nourished. With the boost from RD, he’s even better. There’s not much more to say about Ranulf. He does his job, and he’s the laguz that is forced into many of the levels so that you have to a least TRY to learn how to use laguz. Ranulf has more purpose to the story than someone like SOTHE, and rend is a nicer tool than something line BANE, but I’ve already beaten the fact that I dislike Sothe over the head of people so many times, that they’re starting to stop noticing, and will feel lost if they don’t have me constantly prattling on about him.

Anyway, that last bit was just to fill up space. Ranulf deserves an 8/10 on the laguz scale. He’s pretty good. But has limitations of being a laguz.

Skrimir

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Resolve, wrath, Roar, Nullify, Parity

Weapon: SS level Fang

Support: Mordecai

At first I though Skrimir would be a real pain to use. But when I was first able to get him, the first thing I gave him was paragon and Blossom. The combination of those two skills were passed around a lot during this playthrough. But that’s not all I gave him. I also gave him Wrath and resolve. And I went through most of the prologue of part 4, with Skrimir untransformed, gaining levels and weapon levels, like crazy. By the end of the level, Skrimir was at level 33, capped in a few spots, and at S and a half weapon level. So it turned out that he was no pain to use at all. In fact, it was a lot of fun to watch a half dead, untransformed Skrimir, kill several paladins with his bare fists while resolve kept him alive and wrath made him even more deadly.

I give Skrimir a 9/10 on the laguz scale. He takes a little care, and while you have a free Giffca coming, you probably won’t need to use Skrimir. But he’s not too bad after all.

Nailah

Stats: Capped all

Skills: Vantage, Nihil

Weapon: SS level fang

Support: Rafiel

Nailah is the first laguz king-er queen, that you get. And like any of the laguz kings, she stands a foot and an arm above other laguz, simply because of the magical formshift scroll. What separates her from the other laguz kings, is a strange little technique called “Glare”. Glare really has no explanation as to why Nailah has it, but you can infer that one of her eyes has some sort of basilisk power or something. It barely hits, but on the few occasions it has, it was quite amusing. Not enough for me to take her every time though.

I give Nailah 10/10. She’s the only laguz queen, and she’s good. She doesn’t have wings, which is an advantage other laguz kings have, and she doesn’t have her own battle theme music. But she does well for herself.

Caineghis

Stats: Capped all cept magic (4), luck (32) and Res (11)

Skills: Fortune, Nihil, Guard

Weapon: SS level fang

Support: Maurim

Of all the laguz kings, Caineghis is my favorite. For one reason. His theme music. It was my favorite piece of music in Por. And is still my favorite in RD. He’s, no joke, a beast, and the only thing he lacks is wings. Which he makes up for in pure kickass power.

I give Caineghis a 10/10. Because his theme music is so good, it’s sexy.

[Killer Poleax]

Awesome post Lyle Dayek. I agree with pretty much everything you posted except I think Lethe and Lyre still suck. Sothe sucks too. Lethe & Lyre's low strength and low transformation time are mostly why they are hated. At least Ranulf has decent strength. Also, most people compare them to the rest of the team (Greil Mercenaries FTW) and they don't get the job done without lots of bexp which could be used on better characters.

[Mufasa]

Awesome post Lyle Dayek. I agree with pretty much everything you posted except I think Lethe and Lyre still suck. Sothe sucks too. Lethe & Lyre's low strength and low transformation time are mostly why they are hated. At least Ranulf has decent strength. Also, most people compare them to the rest of the team (Greil Mercenaries FTW) and they don't get the job done without lots of bexp which could be used on better characters.

True. Lethe and Lyre have a high standard to meet when being compared to the rest of the team.

As for strength, the easiest way to counter that, is to get their weapon level up. That'll carry them for a while until their str caps.

Here's my method for leveling up laguz:

You start them out untransformed. And you find either a boss that won't move, or you surround a general with as many laguz as it takes for them to not move. Then you let them attack you. The laguz will either do no damage at all, and it'll increase their weapon level, or if they do at least 1 damage, it'll increase their exp as much as it would if you did 10 damage. So you abuse the crap out of that enemy unit, until his weapon breaks or he dies. What's even better, is if there's an enemy healer around, or if that unit has a vulnerary. That'll give you even more time to abuse the unit. As for the laguz themselves, there's a lot of luck involved, and sometimes they can avoid the attack, odds are, that they will be hurt. So you simply have a healer around, and you buy a lot of heal staves. I was able to get Mist to level 7 valkyrie by the end of the game simply by healing laguz.

So I've nearly reviewed all the characters in the game. All it leaves are the three Herons, the four dragons, Giffca (Whom I was deeply saddened I didn't get to use this time.) Nolan, and Boyd. I did a review on Boyd before, but it wasn't very official.

-And though I don't agree with Lethe and Lyre sucking, at least you admit that Sothe isn't that good either. They have similar shortcomings, o you should have similar opinions about them. *Is aware of hypocracy.*

Edited November 22, 2008 by Lyle Dayek