Change Seal

[CrashGordon94]

Just wondering, could you use a Change Seal to promote someone Level 10+ to a different promoted class? Like Level 10 Cavalier Krom into a Great Lord?

[Othin]

Just wondering, could you use a Change Seal to promote someone Level 10+ to a different promoted class? Like Level 10 Cavalier Krom into a Great Lord?

You need to be LV10+ promoted to do that, or LV30 in a single-tier class. Otherwise you'll just have Tier 1 options available.

Also, based on the above tests, my current hypothesis to explain some of the variation is that demoting from a LV10+ promoted class adjusts your total levels in a different way compared to demoting from a LV1-9 promoted class, such that the latter gives you a lower effective level and therefore more Exp.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

You need to be LV10+ promoted to do that, or LV30 in a single-tier class. Otherwise you'll just have Tier 1 options available.

Ah right, there goes my plan for Krom...

[Saethori]

I've compared your calculations to an experience formula, and there are some things I've determined.

- FE13's experience formula appears to be similar to FE11/12's. The 'promotion bonus' appears to be 20 instead of 15, however.

- Promoting seems to count the levels from your unpromoted class, but sets your level as the standard 'current level + promotion bonus' system.

- Unpromoted units seem to only count half of their extra levels. This is likely a temporary level adjustment, and the unit's experience will likely plummet on re-promotion.

I'm not sure what to make of the data from Noire, Jerome, and to a lesser extent Unn's; they seem somewhat inconsistent compared to the rest of the data. These are all second-gen characters, and the only such characters included in the tests, I wonder if that's relevant or a coincidence.

[spoiler=Experience gains cross-referenced with effective level (excuse my shorthand)]Roy

11 Merc - Level 11

Merc > Hero - Level 21

Merc > Myrm - Level 6

Merc > Strat - Level 6

Merc > Hero > Myrm - Level 11

Noire

15 BowK - Level 36~38 (Off by 1)

BowK > Grif - Level 39~40 (*2)

BowK > Drac - Level 18

BowK > Grif > Drac - Level 21~23

Jerome

10 DrgM - Level 30

DrgM > GrtK - Level 36~38

DrgM > Drac - Level 13~15

DrgM > GrtK > Drac - Level 21~23

Caeda

10 PegK - Level 10

PegK > FalK - Level 21

PegK > Cavl - Level 5

PegK > FalK > Cavl - Level 11

Saria

20 Sorc + 10 Sorc + Snip

1 Snip - Level ?? (*1)

Snip > Arch - Level 21~23

Velvet

18 Tagu - Level 18

Tagu > Drac - Level 9

Unn

30 Mana > 1 Grif - Level 36~38 (*2)

Grif > Drac - Level 21~23

Grif > Mana - Level 21~23

Alm

21 DmnF - Level 21

DmnF > Drac - Level 11

Sigurd

20 Pldn > 1 Pldn - Level 39~41

Pldn > Cavl - Level 21~23

Navarre

20 Swrd > 1 Swrd - Level 39~41

Swrd > Hero - Level 39~41

Guest MU

Strt > Merc > BowK - Level ?? (*1)

BowK > Pldn - Level ?? (*1)

BowK > Cavl - Level 21~23

BowK > Pala > Cava - Level 21~23

Ogma

15 Hero - Level 36~38

Hero > Cava - Level 18

*1 - This hits the minimum experience value, so it's impossible to determine exact level on just level 13 archers.

*2 - This doesn't seem to match up with the experience formula.

There's still a lot unanswered about this data, but at least progress has been made on the framework.

This kind of discussion, however... it should probably be in a different topic. I feel like we've overtaken this thread with this math nonsense. x.x

[Othin]

Heh heh heh heh heh!

I do believe I've solved this little conundrum. So I think we can wrap things up here, especially as the conclusions are quite relevant.

First off, I returned to Roy and Noire, leveling them up slightly in other skirmishes and then returning to Linde. Roy's increased levels decreased his Exp gains as a Merc and as a Merc --> Myrm, but his Exp gains as a Hero and as a Hero --> Merc were unaffected. Meanwhile Noire's Exp gains were always affected. This leads me to the first of my conclusions:

Using a Master Seal clears all past cumulative levels and resets them to 20. I believe this change is permanent. For the characters that promoted during the test, it explains their Exp gains when plugging the resulting levels into the FE11/12 formula, as observed.

Then there's the matter of Change Seals. As people noted, using a Change Seal causes the character's past levels and cumulative levels to be added together, then cut in half and rounded down to produce their new cumulative levels. If the resulting class is unpromoted, this is the end of the story. Then we have the matter of Noire, Jerome, and Unn. In truth, it is indeed a coincidence that they were children characters: they just happened to be the characters I used Change Seals on to turn them into Tier 2 classes. Their levels are another coincidence that masked the truth: their total levels are all slightly below LV40. This made it appear that they were keeping their past levels and simply getting an increase on top of that, but the truth is slightly different, as my second conclusion:

Using a Change Seal cuts cumulative levels in half. If the resulting class is promoted, it then adds 20. This is why the changes appeared to be a slight increase, and it explains how the characters ended up where they did. Again, I believe this change is permanent.

So in other words, those levels units build up don't actually lead to huge, permanent drops in their ability to gain Exp. You can cut down on those cumulative levels built up, to an extent, and they get cleared completely upon promotion, so like in past FE games, levels gained before promotion do not impact Exp gains after promotion. The difference is, you can keep unpromoting and repromoting units to manage their Exp gains. Their stats may get squashed a bit by the decreased unpromoted caps with this method, but I can confirm that stats lost because of cap constraints return when the character promotes to a class with room for their original stats.

The one thing that seems off by a bit is Sol. He gained 14 Exp from the kill, but according to my calculations, he shouldn't have gotten more than 12. I don't remember everything I did with him or the exact levels he gained, but it seems odd. On the other hand, that's just if the scroll I used on him to turn him into a Demon Fighter actually functioned as a Change Seal. Thinking about it again, the Exp gains fit perfectly if the scroll actually functioned as a Master Seal - clearing out all the penalties from the 50 levels he gained in the process of becoming crazily powerful and just leaving him as a functionally LV23 unit with LV53 stats. This, I think, serves as a good example of how you can manipulate those mechanics to make endgame grinding easier, rather than just turning into the dull 1 Exp fest it had threatened to be. Might even be feasible in the main story without grinding to just make level gains faster, but I dunno.

[Saethori]

So, in other words, bouncing between unpromoted and promoted classes (causing a reset of 'stored levels' every time a Master Seal is used) provides better experience, in the long run, than sticking to promoted classes (causing 'stored levels' to gradually accumulate until they hover around the 40 range)?

As for Demon Fighter... well, the circumstances for that class are VERY unusual, so it's no real surprise that it acts unusually in the formula.

I still can't figure out any possible effective level the three children characters could be that would sync up, but your theory works for everything else. The issue here might be, in part, to not entirely knowing how this game rounds, which can cause one-point deviations and make getting exact levels a pain.

One way or another though, it should take only casual observation at this point to verify your formula.

[Zyriex]

Using a Master Seal clears all past cumulative levels and resets them to 20. I believe this change is permanent. For the characters that promoted during the test, it explains their Exp gains when plugging the resulting levels into the FE11/12 formula, as observed.

Sorry to butt in, but does the bolded mean that there's actually no exp benefit to promoting early? Or is there a distinction between '"cumulative levels" and "current level at promotion?"

[Othin]

So, in other words, bouncing between unpromoted and promoted classes (causing a reset of 'stored levels' every time a Master Seal is used) provides better experience, in the long run, than sticking to promoted classes (causing 'stored levels' to gradually accumulate until they hover around the 40 range)?

As for Demon Fighter... well, the circumstances for that class are VERY unusual, so it's no real surprise that it acts unusually in the formula.

I still can't figure out any possible effective level the three children characters could be that would sync up, but your theory works for everything else. The issue here might be, in part, to not entirely knowing how this game rounds, which can cause one-point deviations and make getting exact levels a pain.

One way or another though, it should take only casual observation at this point to verify your formula.

I thought I had checked everything to confirm that those three would work out. Unn, for example, has her 30 Manakete levels turn into (15+20) 35 cumulative levels, so as a LV1 Griffin Knight, she's LV36, which fits. I'll have to re-check the others, because I remember getting levels that worked, but yours don't seem to agree.

Sorry to butt in, but does the bolded mean that there's actually no exp benefit to promoting early? Or is there a distinction between '"cumulative levels" and "current level at promotion?"

I meant the former, but now I'm not sure, since I realized a potential problem with how I calculated that part. Roy gained the same Exp as a LV11 Merc --> 1 Hero as as a LV13 Merc --> 1 Hero, but because of how the formula works, that might not have been enough to cause any Exp difference anyway.