Anonymous Mafia - Game Over

[No Elimination]

Hey all, sorry for inactivity. I had an unexpected 2 nights in a row without internet and honestly I expected to be modkilled when I got back on here so yeah...re-reading and catching up since as far as I can tell I am still me and still alive in this game.

[All Might]

Bold: Lying might be bad WC, as I used it to mean that you seem to be scummy and that you are overly afraid of a lynch bomb. Which I still believe to be the case, albeit to a lesser degree.

I see. Personally I see no reason not to be wary of a lynchbomb claim; I am willing to lynch Sundown, but if equally scummy targets exist I see no reason not to prefer them over a possibly dangerous one. Now that we know we have a day Persuader it's not that bad though, since we can just force someone scummy to be the last voter.

Underline: I strongly disagree with you here, seeing as he doesn't jump to the thread every time he's mentioned.

I don't see jumping in thread when mentioned as an aspect of lurking OR active lurking; active lurking = posting (that is, being active) but not really contributing, yes?

Also

@ Italics: As I said, I think Yoshi did his whole d1 clusterfuck to divert the lynch from Sundown, which doesn't make sense if Sundown is legit. If they were legitimate, Yoshimi would've had no reason to go and dayvig asp, seeing as a double-mislynch + a night kill, a day vig, and all town vigs disabled for one scum far outweighs just two kills. Like, there was 17 minutes left in the day phase, with people evidently active and a lynch in place. All he had to do is wait it out. The fact that he chose to act suggests to me that Sundown is a mafia power role, which means we should lynch him today.

There's one problem with that though, which is that Yoshimi claimed because he had the most votes. He was saving himself, not Sundown. His flipflop on Sundown earlier does make me think they could be scumbuddies, but the doctor fakeclaim seems purely self-serving. Note also that after fakeclaiming doctor, Yoshimi moved his vote away from Eternity onto Vanilla; Vanilla had only one vote at the time I think and was much less likely to be lynched than Eternity, so it's a poor move for scum trying to get a counterwagon going. Eternity fits the scenario you're describing better than Sundown. Also, how do you know that Yoshimi killed Asparagus? Did I miss something in the thread?

I think Sundown is scummy, but Yoshimi's fakeclaim doesn't seem related.

Wrt to the dayvig, once scum had a doctor claim in thread, why WOULDN'T they day vig him? Getting rid of the doctor D1 is a huge boon to scum.

Sidenote: If Sundown isn't scum by some miracle of god I hope the host rips Yosh a new one for that move. And definitely me for tunneling.

Personally I think fakeclaiming doctor without confirmation that there was no Town doc is a bad move regardless of the situation...

[Ochako Uraraka]

already did, tails

Was that really all you saw from D1? You yourself said you may have more to add; I strongly suggest you do.

So you could idle? My confusion was over why you felt you had to die to protect Town from your role.

Final noteworthy thing from iso is that Yoshimi had a habit of agreeing with people easily. Me, Sparrow, Colin, Aspagarus...lots of backing off and agreeing.

Currently would agree to a lynch on Letters or Sundown, Trafalgar's last post has made me somewhat suspicious of him as well.

Out of the rest of what would normally be town roles, is it that much of a disaster if a persuader goes down? If my role was something helpful, instead of middling/dangerous, you'd have a point.

Excessive agreeing allows buddying to slip by. Two of the people you mentioned are dead and town. I see this as a null read on you and Sparrrow.

So you were suspicious of Trafalgar's post, and answered it. Noted.

Wrt to the dayvig, once scum had a doctor claim in thread, why WOULDN'T they day vig him? Getting rid of the doctor D1 is a huge boon to scum.

Personally I think fakeclaiming doctor without confirmation that there was no Town doc is a bad move regardless of the situation...

Did it occur to you that fakeclaiming doctor was a GOOD idea, if scum had a dayvig? If no one counter-claimed, then Yoshimi could get off scot-free. If someone did counter-claim, then scum had a dayvig target. Your logic makes no sense. On top of it all, you're trying to lynch someone who said they can't be lynched today. Be suspicious if it makes you happy, but look for a viable lynch target. The town gains nothing off of lynching someone who can't be lynched. I still don't like Trafalgar, but I refuse to let this go.

##Unvote

##Vote: VoltTackle

[Estelle]

sorry guys just came back

1) numbers is telling the truth as he knows it, he cannot be lynched today- unless i'm voting for him (i am claiming a really screwed up version of lynch doctor here). so that part is not a fakeclaim.

2) i am like 95% sure i know who the new sundown is, and while i know this is stupid in a game designed especially to counteract against meta, the new sundown is displaying what i consider their towntell. ugh my gut tells me that sundown is probably telling the truth.

3) it was pretty likely imo that yoshimi was going down even before the doc counterclaim. since he had a dayvig ability, he probably fakeclaimed doc to draw out the counterclaim so that he could use up his dayvig shot before getting lynched.

[Kamina]

Seriously, VoltTackle, how did you miss the whole Yoshimi day-vigging Asparagus thing? And play it off for this long? It sounds like you're not actually even reading the thread.

Who wants to be unlynchable tomorrow?

[Ochako Uraraka]

Why are we trying to meta in an anonymous game? I believe your claim.

[Estelle]

to clarify my role. i am the town paper crane folder, and i start off with a paper crane. this crane makes its owner unlynchable, although it is used up after successfully stopping a lynch. however, this crane must be passed along every night, so one person can't keep it for more than one night phase in a row. if the owner of the crane dies in some way, it's returned to me.

btw, this is why i said that my role is also harmful. if anyone at all misreads a scum as townie and gives the crane to them, they could simply cycle it among the mafia members for the whole game. i suppose this would be more difficult now that it's out in the open though.

@tails- ugh i know meta is dumb in this game but my gut is telling me that sundown is not scum, and the old one was someone who was just bad at seeming townie. this will look really bad if sundown flips scum, but blah.

[Olivier]

I see. Personally I see no reason not to be wary of a lynchbomb claim; I am willing to lynch Sundown, but if equally scummy targets exist I see no reason not to prefer them over a possibly dangerous one. Now that we know we have a day Persuader it's not that bad though, since we can just force someone scummy to be the last voter.

I don't think Yosh was as scummy at that time, but OK.

I don't see jumping in thread when mentioned as an aspect of lurking OR active lurking; active lurking = posting (that is, being active) but not really contributing, yes?

See, I view active lurking as popping in only when you're under pressure, which would be like responding immediately to a challenge to come in and say something. It's anti-town in that the person doing the active-lurking isn't actively contributing.

There's one problem with that though, which is that Yoshimi claimed because he had the most votes. He was saving himself, not Sundown. His flipflop on Sundown earlier does make me think they could be scumbuddies, but the doctor fakeclaim seems purely self-serving. Note also that after fakeclaiming doctor, Yoshimi moved his vote away from Eternity onto Vanilla; Vanilla had only one vote at the time I think and was much less likely to be lynched than Eternity, so it's a poor move for scum trying to get a counterwagon going. Eternity fits the scenario you're describing better than Sundown. Also, how do you know that Yoshimi killed Asparagus? Did I miss something in the thread?

I think Sundown is scummy, but Yoshimi's fakeclaim doesn't seem related.

Wrt to the dayvig, once scum had a doctor claim in thread, why WOULDN'T they day vig him? Getting rid of the doctor D1 is a huge boon to scum.

Underline: Uh, he was in the lead by all of one vote with a player not on him aiming to try and lynch sundown. He could've just agreed with tails, voted accordingly, and watched the hypothetical fireworks. His claiming at all meant that he was trying to direct attention to himself in some manner, and I'm not going to try and speculate on why he picked doc in particular aside from trying to draw out the real doc (he succeeded) or for maybe some town cred (he failed). This was all fine and dandy, he got a counterclaim, big deal. Neither he nor vegetable would have been lynched, and the 'lynch bomb' would have went through. 17 minutes left in the phase, and the sundown wagon had took the lead. But, then there was the vig shot (##Slay post, which is a command you dolt). Why in hell would he hit his cc when he has a clean kill at night and the lynchbomb claim is ready to explode on someone presumably town-sided? Easy, he's incompetent or he doesn't want the vengeful claim to be lynched. Working with the assumption that Yosh was competent, that means that either tails is a fucking mastermind or that sundown is scum. Guess what I believe.

@Bold: Ok, so thanks for ignoring my post explaining this. Lemme just lay it out for you:

Option Explicit

Private Sub cmdInconceivable_Click(

If Sundown is Town Then

Yoshimi claims doctor

Asparagus soft counter-claims doctor

Tails Persuades Asp then when Asp votes, Tails hammers

Sundown explodes, killing themself and Tails, who hypothetically should flip town (0-2)

Mafia Nightkills Asparagus (0-3)

Yoshimi uses the Slayer command to kill a townie [Mochrie] (0-4)

Yoshimi is lynched (1-4), Vigilante is disabled.

Mafia Nightkills a townie [inserttowniehere] (1-5)

end If

End Sub

So basically it's 5 kills for one mafia member without factoring for vigilantes. That's an awesome deal for the mafia especially since the loss of Yoshimi disables any night elimination of the mafia. Now, tell me, why would he jeopardize that just to eliminate the already-doomed doc? Please try to pay attention.

Personally I think fakeclaiming doctor without confirmation that there was no Town doc is a bad move regardless of the situation...

I was talking about not getting a quadkill advantage and no vigs. But yes, that was also a dumb move.

[No Elimination]

At this point I'm eading the people who are ok with themselves dying as town(so Sundown, Tails) and also Letters because I would think it would be more beneficial for a one-day unlynchable scum to keep quiet about it. Of course there are problems that come along with that, but claiming it looks more town.

I'm also pretty convinced Yoshimi did the day kill of Asparagus because of the whole ##slay thing. One thing though. With Asparagus yelling "scum" at him he could have used a different vote word to make it look like he did the kill when he didn't, since he was already under suspicion and being called out. Also I agree with Tail's not too far above assesment of scum with a day kill fakeclaiming doc Day 1. Its risky, but I get it.

Not sure how I feel about testing Snndown's lynch bomb role. Her willingness makes me think town so i don't really see the need to test it, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.

[Estelle]

perseus, not only can you not assume that everyone is a class-a player (and most class-a players don't get lynched d1), your outline of what could have happened had yoshimi not shot asparagus assumes that yoshimi wasn't getting lynched after he'd been counterclaimed. tails was being remarkably stubborn about it, but i'm pretty sure yoshimi would have gone down either way.

[Olivier]

perseus, not only can you not assume that everyone is a class-a player (and most class-a players don't get lynched d1), your outline of what could have happened had yoshimi not shot asparagus assumes that yoshimi wasn't getting lynched after he'd been counterclaimed. tails was being remarkably stubborn about it, but i'm pretty sure yoshimi would have gone down either way.

Normal: First of all, I can assume that there should be at least one good player on any given faction, and that they know what they can do with certain roles. Second of all, that isn't even too ridiculous play.

@Bold: Firstly, at t-minus 20 minutes Sundown was in the lead. The closest it could've came was a split between Yosh and Sundown, due to tails' persuasion and insistence on the roll, but even that was unlikely

Secondly, and pardon my language, but

why the fuck would you lynch between doctors on D1?

[Estelle]

who cares what the claimed role is? sure doctor is a very strong role, but we had 1/2 people narrowed down to scum. why wouldn't we lynch one of them over someone who's looked scummy but doesn't have a completely objective 50% chance of being scum? also, i think most people will agree when i say that asparagus was looking much better than yoshimi, meaning if asparagus had actually been scum and yoshimi had been town, asparagus wouldn't have wanted to waste his town cred by counterclaiming and then getting lynched right after yoshimi flipped town.

your point that at least one of the players in the mafia are likely competent is a good one though. i dunno, it's entirely possible that i'm arguing against you here more because i have a strong feeling that sundown is town than because your logic is faulty.

[Olivier]

who cares what the claimed role is? sure doctor is a very strong role, but we had 1/2 people narrowed down to scum. why wouldn't we lynch one of them over someone who's looked scummy but doesn't have a completely objective 50% chance of being scum? also, i think most people will agree when i say that asparagus was looking much better than yoshimi, meaning if asparagus had actually been scum and yoshimi had been town, asparagus wouldn't have wanted to waste his town cred by counterclaiming and then getting lynched right after yoshimi flipped town.

your point that at least one of the players in the mafia are likely competent is a good one though. i dunno, it's entirely possible that i'm arguing against you here more because i have a strong feeling that sundown is town than because your logic is faulty.

Bold: This statement is irrelevant. Just because USER has been scummy or townie in-day does not mean you ignore the role that is being lynched between.

So, you're telling me that we'd lynch between power roles that can and will offer protection for other more important roles just because the scum rate is 50%? Are you kidding me? If we lynch correctly, we lose the doc on the night kill, and suddenly all information roles are vulnerable. We lynch incorrectly, we lose the doc before N1 even begins and the mafia gets a leg-up seeing as they can eliminate anyone. Then the next day is wasted lynching the obvscum, and the mafia has another crack at killing info roles before the town can really move along. No, it's better to ignore those two so that there is at least some chance of a blocked kill along the way and the doc stays alive, since if the mafia kill the doc, well, the player counterclaiming doc sacrifices themselves.

Throw percentages to the dogs, I'll have none of them.

[All Might]

Did it occur to you that fakeclaiming doctor was a GOOD idea, if scum had a dayvig? If no one counter-claimed, then Yoshimi could get off scot-free. If someone did counter-claim, then scum had a dayvig target. Your logic makes no sense.

It's still a one-for-one trade. Even killing the doctor is not worth losing a scum D1. There are plenty of games in which the doctor never successfully blocks a kill, simply because it's hard to predict the NK, so although it is a very valuable role, losing it does not ruin Town's chances of victory. Losing perhaps 1/4 of the scum team is a much worse blow. I consider it a very bad move to get a scum member killed D1. And as long as a doctor existed, it is very unlikely that they would fail to counter-claim, because again, killing scum even at the expense of the doctor is good for Town.

On top of it all, you're trying to lynch someone who said they can't be lynched today.

Someone who had not explained why he cannot be lynched today and who I find scummy. If the day went on and a Letters wagon was clearly not materializing, then yes, I would change my vote so we could get a hammer, but I'm not going to ignore a scummy player just because they say they can't get lynched with no explanation.

With Sparrow's information, however, it seems that Letters is indeed unlynchable, so I will give it up for now.

(##Slay post, which is a command you dolt).

Ohhhhh. I thought it was one of those flavor votes, like when people go ##Elect for President. Oops. Your analysis makes much more sense to me now.

Wrt to your explanation: hm, that's true. He could have voted for Sundown. He really didn't have to claim at all just to avoid getting lynched. I think I greatly underestimated how useful it would have been for him to go after Sundown, and also how possible it was for him to avoid the lynch. And given that he was the dayvig, shooting Asparagus effectively caused him to be lynched, because there were not enough players active at the time to stop the Sundown lynch otherwise after the persuade.

In that scenario, I really can't see any reason for Yoshimi to do all that except to avoid lynching Sundown. Well, I'm sold.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Sundown

If killing a lynchbomb would have been that powerful, then it seems that Sundown is probably not a scum!lynchbomb either, or they would've let him die.

[Cú Chulainn]

Bold: This statement is irrelevant. Just because USER has been scummy or townie in-day does not mean you ignore the role that is being lynched between.

So, you're telling me that we'd lynch between power roles that can and will offer protection for other more important roles just because the scum rate is 50%? Are you kidding me? If we lynch correctly, we lose the doc on the night kill, and suddenly all information roles are vulnerable. We lynch incorrectly, we lose the doc before N1 even begins and the mafia gets a leg-up seeing as they can eliminate anyone. Then the next day is wasted lynching the obvscum, and the mafia has another crack at killing info roles before the town can really move along. No, it's better to ignore those two so that there is at least some chance of a blocked kill along the way and the doc stays alive, since if the mafia kill the doc, well, the player counterclaiming doc sacrifices themselves.

Throw percentages to the dogs, I'll have none of them.

Great argument, but please explain to me on who you would have lynched the previous day phase ?

[Olivier]

Great argument, but please explain to me on who you would have lynched the previous day phase ?

After the clusterfuck or before it?

[Cú Chulainn]

after the doc claims

[Ochako Uraraka]

I hate this browser.

to clarify my role. i am the town paper crane folder, and i start off with a paper crane. this crane makes its owner unlynchable, although it is used up after successfully stopping a lynch. however, this crane must be passed along every night, so one person can't keep it for more than one night phase in a row. if the owner of the crane dies in some way, it's returned to me.

btw, this is why i said that my role is also harmful. if anyone at all misreads a scum as townie and gives the crane to them, they could simply cycle it among the mafia members for the whole game. i suppose this would be more difficult now that it's out in the open though.

@tails- ugh i know meta is dumb in this game but my gut is telling me that sundown is not scum, and the old one was someone who was just bad at seeming townie. this will look really bad if sundown flips scum, but blah.

I'm willing to believe that you're town based on your role. Its previous iteration it only allowed a person to hold the crane once during the game. You said that you can negate the crane by voting the person. Take advantage of that, if you think the crane went to the wrong person. If you're that worried, then have the current crane holder announce who they will pass it to.

I don't believe the meta read, but my vote is elsewhere at the moment.

perseus, not only can you not assume that everyone is a class-a player (and most class-a players don't get lynched d1), your outline of what could have happened had yoshimi not shot asparagus assumes that yoshimi wasn't getting lynched after he'd been counterclaimed. tails was being remarkably stubborn about it, but i'm pretty sure yoshimi would have gone down either way.

Breadcrumbing should not be used in the following situations:

- Attempting to get someone lynched via a counter-claim

- Attempting to lynch someone who isn't seen as a top priority due to your night results

- Claiming to get the lynch off of you

This forces the full weight of responsibility on the claimer - if something goes awry in the future, the claimer can't wiggle out of it using semantics and other bullshit.

who cares what the claimed role is? sure doctor is a very strong role, but we had 1/2 people narrowed down to scum. why wouldn't we lynch one of them over someone who's looked scummy but doesn't have a completely objective 50% chance of being scum? also, i think most people will agree when i say that asparagus was looking much better than yoshimi, meaning if asparagus had actually been scum and yoshimi had been town, asparagus wouldn't have wanted to waste his town cred by counterclaiming and then getting lynched right after yoshimi flipped town.

your point that at least one of the players in the mafia are likely competent is a good one though. i dunno, it's entirely possible that i'm arguing against you here more because i have a strong feeling that sundown is town than because your logic is faulty.

I'm positive you're town, and in need of a lesson in logic. The town does not know the roles of anyone else except themselves; the mafia doesn't know the town's roles. If there is a doc dispute, then that means one of them is telling the truth. By using other investigative roles, it allows the town to figure out which of the doc claims is true. By lynching blindly, there's a coin flip of a chance that the town mislynches the doc. I personally wasn't convinced that Asparagus was town; that opinion dump I did in D1 was because I wasn't sure if I'd make it past D1. Asparagus himself was only hinting at his role; I asked him directly because he wanted Yoshimi lynched with the reasoning "because I said so". I don't expect the town to lynch anyone for reasons I refuse to divulge.

It's still a one-for-one trade. Even killing the doctor is not worth losing a scum D1. There are plenty of games in which the doctor never successfully blocks a kill, simply because it's hard to predict the NK, so although it is a very valuable role, losing it does not ruin Town's chances of victory. Losing perhaps 1/4 of the scum team is a much worse blow. I consider it a very bad move to get a scum member killed D1. And as long as a doctor existed, it is very unlikely that they would fail to counter-claim, because again, killing scum even at the expense of the doctor is good for Town.

Yoshimi was pretty high on the list of people to lynch. The mafia doesn't know if the town has killing roles. Why NOT take a power role down with him, and instead of relying on the doc to be elsewhere, get rid of him for good?

Someone who had not explained why he cannot be lynched today and who I find scummy. If the day went on and a Letters wagon was clearly not materializing, then yes, I would change my vote so we could get a hammer, but I'm not going to ignore a scummy player just because they say they can't get lynched with no explanation.

With Sparrow's information, however, it seems that Letters is indeed unlynchable, so I will give it up for now.

I'd say it's the opposite - if someone didn't claim unlynchable, is lynched, and doesn't go down, it's scummy. Town relies on flips, interactions, and some night roles for information. Depriving the town of any of its informational sources is bad.

My vote stays, because your logical conclusions aren't very logical.

[Olivier]

after the doc claims

After the doc claims, My vote was still on sundown. After the day vig, I would've rolled Yosh for being obvious scum.

So, what do you think about the shenanigans so far?

[All Might]

Yoshimi was pretty high on the list of people to lynch. The mafia doesn't know if the town has killing roles. Why NOT take a power role down with him, and instead of relying on the doc to be elsewhere, get rid of him for good?

If he had claimed a role that didn't get counter-claimed, he might have been able to get the lynch off him entirely and on to someone else. For scum, not dying > getting the doctor and themself killed, because 1-for-1 trade favors Town. This is turning into gameplay discussion however.

I'd say it's the opposite - if someone didn't claim unlynchable, is lynched, and doesn't go down, it's scummy. Town relies on flips, interactions, and some night roles for information. Depriving the town of any of its informational sources is bad.

Except at the time I posted, he had not claimed unlynchable, he had just said he couldn't be lynched. I have seen players say this for reasons as minor as they have a really good claim or they think no one else will want to lynch them.

Also, unlynchable is not an unheard of fakeclaim--see BBM in Shining Force mafia. Auto-ignoring unlynchable claims is not wise.

Also also, where is like half the game?

[Cú Chulainn]

So, what do you think about the shenanigans so far?

I must say your arguments make a lot of sense, but I think Yoshi was actually getting lynched, Sundown had a lot of votes right before phase end, but that was due to Tail's ability, after Yoshi claimed and Asparagus bread crumbed his role. But this wasn't a very stable situation for getting Asparagus lynched considering IF asparagus had claimed outright and explained himself properly, the lynch should have been on Yoshi. I think Yoshi decided to give some town cred to her buddy Volt, I am not saying this is the case, but this is what I think, by making her switch votes first and then day kill Asparagus trying to take the best of this situation. If it weere up to me though, I would most likely wait a bit longer to see where the wagons go before using that ability cause it didn't seem like there was a time limit to activating the ability during the day.

so, overall, I think Sundown is more likely to be town and I also find it scummy of Volt to place an early vote on Sundown so that she can avoid a Sundown going down on her face also why my vote stays on Volt.

[Prims]

Sundown (3) - NE93B27J3U, Sundown, VoltTackle

NE93B27J3U (2) - Vanilla Diet Coke, Trafalgar

VoltTackle (2) - ILoveTangerine, tails1996

Not Voting - Daniel Craig, Eternlty, Perseus, Shotta, Sparrrow

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to hammer. You have about 48 hours left in the day (countdown).

Eternlty has been prodded.

[Estelle]

bbm claiming unlynchable was pretty dumb, and he got lynched for it. i don't think any mafia would repeat that mistake so soon. you're really rubbing me the wrong way here with some of your logic. i feel like i'm sheeping tails, but...

##Vote: VoltTackle

[Estelle]

also, guys, remember, we need a majority to lynch someone today.

[All Might]

so, overall, I think Sundown is more likely to be town and I also find it scummy of Volt to place an early vote on Sundown so that she can avoid a Sundown going down on her face also why my vote stays on Volt.

I avoided hammering yesterday because I think my role is somewhat useful and getting myself killed D1 would've wasted it. Perseus' argument has convinced me that Sundown is probably not actually a lynchbomb, so if you want me to hammer, sure, why not.

I can also prove my role tonight if you like.