To prove Titania hogs exp

[Hawk King]

^ Read back aways, they are talking about it from a tier list perspective. Apparently the tier list assumes every unit is recruited. If every unit is recruited, that would just de-value Titania, even more since we are spending more turns on certain chapters to recruit characters.

[Chiki]

Bexp. Elincia has a really high Mag growth and we can have a lot of Bexp come C26. Mist is going to need a bunch of Bexp to reach 24 Mag anyway.

So we have to bexp Kieran up after giving him the Master Seal, then somehow collect enough exp to get Ike to level 8 by the time Chapter 21 arrives (to kill Generals blocking his path to Ena), then collect Calill enough bexp to two-round the boss in 22 and save bonus experience for Elincia. Do you not realize how incredibly impractical that is?

24 magic was, admittedly, an exaggeration, but a 20 magic Mist, for example, would be more than enough to fulfill your Rescue needs in the game.

It looks like you gave Ilyana over 1000 Bexp.

LOL WHAT? Where did you get that number?

I'm not discussing the value of Calill vs. Ilyana (who needs more reasources to 2HKO Schaeffer). I'm discussing the feasibility of Calill 2HKOing Schaeffer. It is feasible. If you believe the C14 Spirit Dust is more valuable when given to Mist or Elincia, so be it. You save some Bexp that would have gone to them and give it to Calill instead.

I'm not even suggesting that Ilyana 2HKO Schaeffer, I'm simply suggesting a three-round. And it is not feasible at all, seeing that your counter argument is a mere "so be it."

And you don't save bexp. Mist levels up at below level 10 unpromoted (assuming she gets the Master Seal), while Calill has 20 levels over Mist. The bexp points required is far greater to level up Calill than it is to level up an unpromoted Mist. You should never be leveling up a promoted Mist with bexp unless you're near the end of the game anyway.

Is Ilyana's small hit advantage relevant or can Calill hit Hafedd with high reliability? Actually, it looks like Bastian with an A Volke support might be the most accurate of the three.

Small? Lol, let's do the calculations.

Hafedd's avoid: 59

Ilyana's hit with Bolting at level 5 promoted: 119 + 15 = 134

Calill's hit with Bolting at level 10 promoted: 124

134 - 59 = 75 displayed hit on Hafedd, whereas Calill has a mere 65. Hang on though, we have to convert displayed hit to true hit. 65 becomes 76% whereas 75 becomes 88%. Ilyana hits almost 9/10 times whereas Calill can only hit 3/4 times. I'd pick Ilyana's reliability over Calill any day.

And A Volke support? Seriously? Do you realize how competitive a single slot is in this game, and considering how late you get Bastian and how little time you have to build their support.. it's a silly suggestion.

Sorry, in a LTC playthrough, Marcia has to be your superflier, because only she can 2-turn C17-2. Because Marcia must receive the Boots, Jill ends up taking a backseat like Tanith.

Pretty sure I was talking about a tier list where every character is recruited.

Whoa timeout. Aeine,

Chp 18 can be cleared in 6 turns extremely easily. I did it with Tanith, Titania, and Kieran escourting Reyson. One of them carried Soren with a chest and dropped him to get the wrath scroll. Ike, Nephenee, Devdan and Rolf stayed behind to kill the wyvern knights. None of my units had taken the boots yet.

Your strategy shouldn't involve rescuing Mordy. Idk a 5 turn might need someone carring Mordy but a 6 turn clear doesnt need him. You must be doing something wrong...

I was assuming that using a unit with better stats and carrying Mordecai around would be more reliable, but I'll take your word for it.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

Anouleth's allusion to Aeine's hypocrisy is spot-on. Aeine argues that Titania loses substantial value due to a domino effect starting with the 2-turn clear of C17-2. This is only relevant in the strictest of LTC playthroughs, but Aeine uses it as a general criticism of Titania (and applies the criticism to a tier list context). But if we apply the same logic to Jill, she is far less valuable than Titania - even in a playthrough where she is recruited. Because Marcia needs the Boots for C17-2's ridiculous 2-turn clear, Jill is relegated to a backseat role akin to Tanith (at best). Moreover, in a run where Jill is recruited, Aeine's domino argument against Titania falls apart, because an unpromoted Jill can take the place of a promoted Oscar or Kieran in the C17-2 clear. Aeine's claim that Jill > Titania is unsupportable.

(As for this board's tier list, it does not assume that all units will be recruited. It assumes that the unit being tiered will be recruited and deployed in each chapter.)

[Chiki]

Anouleth's allusion to Aeine's hypocrisy is spot-on. Aeine argues that Titania loses substantial value due to a domino effect starting with the 2-turn clear of C17-2. This is only relevant in the strictest of LTC playthroughs, but Aeine uses it as a general criticism of Titania (and applies the criticism to a tier list context). But if we apply the same logic to Jill, she is far less valuable than Titania - even in a playthrough where she is recruited. Because Marcia needs the Boots for C17-2's ridiculous 2-turn clear, Jill is relegated to a backseat role akin to Tanith (at best). Moreover, in a run where Jill is recruited, Aeine's domino argument against Titania falls apart, because an unpromoted Jill can take the place of a promoted Oscar or Kieran in the C17-2 clear. Aeine's claim that Jill > Titania is unsupportable.

(As for this board's tier list, it does not assume that all units will be recruited. It assumes that the unit being tiered will be recruited and deployed in each chapter.)

As I said earlier in this thread, I agreed that I can consider Titania as not a detriment in a tier list. However, I still think she's pointless and she brings nothing special to the table after earlygame.

[eclipse]

LOL WHAT? Where did you get that number?

Read your own BEXP calculations for Ilyana. . .

[Chiki]

Read your own BEXP calculations for Ilyana. . .

If you had decided to look carefully, I didn't provide any number.. do you honestly think I gave a character 100 bexp every line? I even put down the difference btw. the bexp left at the end of the chapter and the bexp at the beginning.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Aeine

[eclipse]

If you had decided to look carefully, I didn't provide any number.. do you honestly think I gave a character 100 bexp every line? I even put down the difference btw. the bexp left at the end of the chapter and the bexp at the beginning.

Please look at how many levels of BEXP you gave Ilyana. Now do some math. Going from 11 to 1, no Master Seal, is a lot.

[Hawk King]

^ That was a typo. Its obvious if you look at how much he had before and after. It should be 12 not 1.

[eclipse]

^ That was a typo. Its obvious if you look at how much he had before and after. It should be 12 not 1.

If the typo were 18 to 1, you might have a point. 12 to 1 is still a large chunk of experience, and Ilyana's being fed all throughout her existence.

[Chiki]

Ilyana gets a lot of exp in 17, 18 and 20 and she doesn't even need to be promoted to damage Schaeffer.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

If the typo were 18 to 1, you might have a point. 12 to 1 is still a large chunk of experience, and Ilyana's being fed all throughout her existence.

It's 11 to 12, not 11 to 1. I made the same mistake but Aeine was a dick about how he corrected me.

I'm going to guesstimate that he put ~250-300 BEXP into Ilyana though.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Hawk King]

Can a mount use the statue frag? If so, Kieran doesnt need to be promoted for 17-2 since the Chp 15 statue frag is easy to get in 2 turns.

[Chiki]

Can a mount use the statue frag? If so, Kieran doesnt need to be promoted for 17-2 since the Chp 15 statue frag is easy to get in 2 turns.

It's a good idea, and I tried getting the Statue Frag myself, but that prevents you from getting Physic (the Physic staff is 8 tiles away from the Boots), and the Physic is definitely necessary if you want reliable strategies. I know for a fact I need it to cut turns in 23 and 25.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

As I said earlier in this thread, I agreed that I can consider Titania as not a detriment in a tier list. However, I still think she's pointless and she brings nothing special to the table after earlygame.

Surely the same applies to Jill, though? So your "ideal list" would be something like:

Top

Marcia

High

Titania

Oscar

Jill

Kieran

Tanith?

Depending on whether you think Jill being a second or third string flier is more worthwhile than Kieran being easier to train and having better offensive stats.

[Chiki]

Surely the same applies to Jill, though? So your "ideal list" would be something like:

Top

Marcia

High

Titania

Oscar

Jill

Kieran

Tanith?

Depending on whether you think Jill being a second or third string flier is more worthwhile than Kieran being easier to train and having better offensive stats.

Depends on the rules. If the tier list assumes everyone is recruited, then I'd put Jill above Marcia because the rules assume you have to recruit everyone anyway so the turns lost mean nothing.

[Hawk King]

Volke goes to get the statue frag. Sothe gets the Physic on turn 1 and then on turn 2 gets shoved by 1 of Illyana/Soren/Rhys to reach the boots. That works right?

[Chiki]

Volke goes to get the statue frag. Sothe gets the Physic on turn 1 and then on turn 2 gets shoved by 1 of Illyana/Soren/Rhys to reach the boots. That works right?

Yeah, but there are cats / ravens that can one round all of them.

......even further strengthening the argument to train Ilyana/Soren.

Thanks for actually providing the first thoughtful, great idea in this thread.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Aeine

[Hawk King]

Training either Soren or Illyana is pretty much a definite. Its the choice of Illyana over Soren that people dont agree with.

And youre welcome. Im currently doing my own playthrough using Boyd and Soren.

[Chiki]

Training either Soren or Illyana is pretty much a definite. Its the choice of Illyana over Soren that people dont agree with.

And youre welcome. Im currently doing my own playthrough using Boyd and Soren.

Yeah, Soren over Ilyana and Boyd over Mia can get the same turns as mine. I just prefer Ilyana and Mia because their support makes pulling off strategies easier, and Mia has some extra speed to one round cats in 25.

Make sure to post your results when you're done with your playthrough.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, but there are cats / ravens that can one round all of them.

Volke doesn't get one-rounded, Jill can easily rescue Sothe.

Thanks for actually providing the first thoughtful, great idea in this thread.

The only "Great idea" is the one that strengthens your viewpoint somehow. Stop being an asshole.

Depends on the rules. If the tier list assumes everyone is recruited, then I'd put Jill above Marcia because the rules assume you have to recruit everyone anyway so the turns lost mean nothing.

a) marcia's easier to shove

b) marcia has a resistance staff making her better for certain things

c) marcia still has an availability lead

d) marcia has a speed lead in the mid game that matters

[Chiki]

Volke doesn't get one-rounded, Jill can easily rescue Sothe.

Uh.....................................................................................................we don't recruit Jill in our playthroughs.

And I was talking about the mages getting one-rounded, though Sothe too can get one-rounded.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Aeine

[Toothache]

Did you even look at the HM stats?

Base Sothe has 20 HP/4 Def, and 11 speed. Even the strongest Cat fails to OHKO him, and none of the enemies double. Just keep him away from the Tigers. And don't forget Sothe has had some time to grow, probably unlikely to be more than a level or two ahead of base with Blossom but you never know.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Toothache

[Chiki]

Did you even look at the HM stats?

Base Sothe has 20 HP/4 Def, and 11 speed. Even the strongest Tiger fails to OHKO him, and none of the enemies double.

That's weird, I've had my Sothe killed before by a cat in one round on HM. Enemy stats can often vary by one or two points.

Also, I was talking about the mages, not just Sothe.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Aeine

[Toothache]

True, the HM stats listed here aren't absolute. The strongest cat listed there has 23 atk and 14 AS, but that can be lower or higher of course. Still, if those are the average than it's likely Sothe will survive a single cat. Obviously, damage mitigation still needs to be employed for anything more (shoves/drops etc).

[Polaris]

What about using the Laguzguard?