Astra or Wrath/Vantage?

[Roosterofdoom]

For Mia. Which do you think would be better? I'm thinking Astra becase she should be able to dodge enough so that wrath won't activate. Then again, her defense is so low it'll only take one good hit...

[aku chi]

Vantage by itself is more valuable than Astra as it will lead to a substantial number of crit-blicks (especially with a Killer Edge or the Vague Katti). Wrath is just icing on the cake.

Edited August 1, 2012 by aku chi

[Peppy]

I'd go with Wrath/Vantage since Astra's activation rate is quite low (Skill/2).

[CrashGordon94]

WRATH/VANTAGE! That's awesome an Astra sucks, 'nuff said.

Though apparently Adept/Vantage is nice too, never tried that though.

[Roosterofdoom]

Cool, that's pretty unanimous. I'll use Wrath/Vantage then. Now what about Zihark? What skill would go good with Adept? Othr than Wrath, obviously.

[VGE]

Resolve? >v>

[NTNP]

Zihark does pretty well with just adept to be honest, there really isn't much of a reason to give him any other skills. But if you really feel like adding something, gamble maybe? He usually has pretty high SKL scores and with a killer weapon (which has decent accuracy on it's own) you could almost be assured at least one critical attack per turn by combing those skills together. I wouldn't suggest resolve since by endgame he can have high enough avoid where unless you are actively trying to put him into critical HP, then he wont get there on his own or will face the possibility of death should you make a miscalculation due to his fairly low concrete defenses. Wraith is a similar problem as resolve, only with lower payoff and you would be losing out on other characters who could use the ability better. While vantage could be useful, he generally isn't capable of 1-2HKOing most foes and doesn't have the ability to react against ranged attacks so that isn't too favorable. Other than that, Miracle might be useful if you aren't using Zihark's supports to their fullest while leaving other, more valuable skills to other characters that need them more such as your occults (paladins love them), resolve, adept, wraith, vantage etc.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Personally, I think Wrath/Resolve is a better combo, but seeing as how you only get one Resolve scroll, and how I don´t know your preferences on Nephenee, I say Wrath/Vantage

Edit: IN AFTER QUESTION. For Zihark, Adept and counter, just off the top of my head

Edited August 3, 2012 by Reyn

[Snowy_One]

Vantage and wrath. Astra is, by far, the worst mastery in the game. It's the only one that can be argued to be actually worse than having no skill since activating it can VERY easily lead to wasted weapon uses.

[aku chi]

Astra is, by far, the worst mastery in the game.

You're obviously not remembering this game's mastery skills.

Flare - Ooh, halving Resistance when most enemies have < 10 Res in the first place. This rarely makes a difference.

Colossus - +25% damage against enemies that Boyd and Largo should have no trouble 2HKOing in the first place (it won't activate at all against Laguz).

Roar - Why would I ever use this?

Deadeye - When attacking, I prefer to kill enemies, not put them to sleep.

Stun - When attacking, I much prefer to kill enemies, not temporarily stun them.

Astra, when it activates, increases damage by +150% (on net). That's better than Luna, but it does have a lower activation rate and can deplete additional weapon uses. Still, it's an unimpressive skill all things considered. I'd rather have Vantage Mia than Astra Mia (without even considering Vantage Mia's capacity for taking a complementary skill like Wrath, Guard, or Adept).

It's the only one that can be argued to be actually worse than having no skill

Not true. If Deadeye or Stun activate, they will prevent an enemy from suiciding on enemy phase. In rout chapters, I'd rather not have these skills.

Edited August 4, 2012 by aku chi

[Snowy_One]

You're obviously not remembering this game's mastery skills.

Flare - Ooh, halving Resistance when most enemies have < 10 Res in the first place. This rarely makes a difference.

Colossus - +25% damage against enemies that Boyd and Largo should have no trouble 2HKOing in the first place (it won't activate at all against Laguz).

Roar - Why would I ever use this?

Deadeye - When attacking, I prefer to kill enemies, not put them to sleep.

Stun - When attacking, I much prefer to kill enemies, not temporarily stun them.

Being useless > wasting 3 weapon uses to deal only .5 more damage than you would have done with a normal double (2.5 attacks worth vs. 2 attacks with the normal double). Also, Deadeye and Stun, IIRC, if activated on the first strike will prevent the enemy from countering and you still get to double. Even if not, the sleep/stun is only useless when trying for low turn counts. Otherwise, it's just not worth much.

Astra, when it activates, increases damage by +150% (on net). That's better than Luna, but it does have a lower activation rate and can deplete additional weapon uses. Still, it's an unimpressive skill all things considered. I'd rather have Vantage Mia than Astra Mia (without even considering Vantage Mia's capacity for taking a complementary skill like Wrath, Guard, or Adept).

It also blows through weapon uses at a lightning pace. Forges, unique weapons, and whatever else will last noticeably less longer in the hands of an Astra wielder. Plus, consider exactly what situation it's useful in. Namely, killing enemies that two attacks can't kill because you miss by ONLY a few HP, lucked out and got Astra to activate, but DIDN'T luck out and get a critical hit despite swordsmasters getting critical boosts.

[aku chi]

*sigh. There's only so many times I can tolerate re-educating you, Snowy_One.

Being useless > wasting 3 weapon uses to deal only .5 more damage than you would have done with a normal double (2.5 attacks worth vs. 2 attacks with the normal double).

Astra doesn't prevent one from doubling nor does it only activate on the first hit. This is a deeply flawed way of evaluating Astra. It's really quite simple: when Astra activates, it results in 2.5x more damage on average in that hit.

It also blows through weapon uses at a lightning pace. Forges, unique weapons, and whatever else will last noticeably less longer in the hands of an Astra wielder.

As I've brought up before: if conserving unique weapons is so important to you, Astra can help. Due to Astra and crits, Stefan has a high likelihood of ORKOing with conventional weaponry like Steel Blades. And when you really need the extra firepower (against bosses or really tough enemies), you can whip out a forge or +crit weapon.

Plus, consider exactly what situation it's useful in. Namely, killing enemies that two attacks can't kill because you miss by ONLY a few HP, lucked out and got Astra to activate, but DIDN'T luck out and get a critical hit despite swordsmasters getting critical boosts.

Another flawed analysis... Astra does not prevent crits from ocurring. If one was going to crit anyways, activating Astra does not prevent that crit from happening.

Swordmasters frequently come short of 2HKOing, so any skill that increases their likelihood of ORKOing when they don't 2HKO is valuable. Astra isn't a great skill, but it's better than half of this game's mastery skills and it's certainly better than nothing.

[Snowy_One]

*sigh. There's only so many times I can tolerate re-educating you, Snowy_One.

No. It deals 5 attacks at 50% damage. That's the problem. Break it down.

For this we will assume the enemy dies in exactly 2 hits worth of damage. We will ignore critical hits for now (they'll come up later).

Now there is only one possibility for this for the person lacking any skills at all (since we're ignoring criticals) and that's a double for a kill. Attack, counter, attack for two attacks worth of damage. Number of weapon uses: 2 Counter taken.

The Astra person has it different though. They can either have Astra activate on the first or second attack.

On the first attack the user will deal four attacks at .5 power and manage to dodge the counter. Number of weapon uses: 4, no counter.

Now when Astra activates on the second attack it will be 1 attack for full damage, followed by their counter, followed by two attacks for .5 power. Number of weapon uses: 3, counter taken. Either way one weapon use was wasted, possibly two depending on when it happened. The end result was the same as well (the enemy died) with the only difference being Astra preventing a counter IF it went off on the first strike. On the EP it WILL waste a weapon use when it goes off and it will NOT prevent a counter. So, a 24% chance of wasting a weapon use every round of combat, but only a 12% chance of sparing a counter attack when used on the player phase (0% chance on the EP without vantage).

Now let's factor in critical hits. I will assume for this that both characters critical on the same attack regardless of Astra.

Critical hits for SM run at roughly 25-30% or so without outside modification. Now... For the non-Astra the chances are like this (- = counter for ease from now on). Still assuming 2 attacks worth needed for a kill.

1) Normal - normal/critical kill 2 weapon uses, counter taken (70-75%)

2) Critical (X3) kill 1 weapon use, no counter taken (25-30%)

For the astra it can go...

1) Normal - normal/critical kill

2) Critical kill

So far the same, but Astra hasn't happened yet. Now let's assume Astra activates on the first hit. If the first Astra attack is normal, then the BEST that can happen is a critical hit on the second strike (25-30% chance of happening) which caps it off at 2 attacks and two weapon uses. If it fails (which it will 70-75% of the time) then you NEED to use another weapon use, at which point you have to risk another 25-30% chance of it not criticaling or else you're stuck at 1.5 attacks of the two attacks you need.

But what if I critical on the first strike? Well, sure. That's all well and dandy, but that only happens 3% of the time (a quarter of 12%), and another 3% of the time it will cut off before wasting weapon uses due to a second-strike critical, but after that... It's all downhill. I know you're going to say that you dodged the counter though. Keep in mind though that this is on the PLAYER phase. On the ENEMY phase the enemy attack will come first so Astra will simply be a waste of weapon uses unless you luck out and get a normal followed by a critical with the Astra strikes which would let it break even with the non-Astra person.

But you still managed to dodge a counter, right? Well, sure. And if you were wielding a non-forged weapon or unique weapon, that might even be a good thing. But that limits your character to iron, steel, and silver weapons. No killers, no VK, nothing. Both those weapons are pretty frail and, even if you are willing to waste hammerine uses on them to keep a swordsmaster using them, Astra can easily screw you over via activating and breaking your weapon when you thought you were safe (First use of Stefan Astra activated and he missed all his criticals. I counted my lucky stars that I had given him a junky iron sword with 9 uses left instead of the VK for that fight).

But not all enemies die cleanly in 2 attacks, right? Well... Yea. But let's think this out.

Any enemy who would die in less than .5 attacks Astra, normals, and criticals will do equally well against. Astra is useless.

Any enemy between .5 and 1 attacks the normal and critical will kill in one hit while Astra needs a first-hit critical to break even. Astra is useless to a detriment.

Any enemy between 1 and 1.5 the normal can't kill, so Astra *might* have an edge on the PP. On the EP though it is an outright detriment as two normals will kill as well and no counter can be dealt meaning Astra needs that first-strike critical to break even again.

Any enemy between 1.5 and 2, Astra WILL use two weapon uses, as will the normal, but if Astra doesn't get a critical in those first two strikes it will waste more weapon uses than the normal would have and get the same result.

Between 2 and 2.5 is the ideal range for Astra, where it can get a kill where the normal wouldn't, but you had to blow through either 5 or 3 weapon uses depending on when it activated and unless you luck out and get two criticals in a row you would lose at least one weapon use. Those same critcals on the normal would have KILLED the enemy with one use. Astra is a minor advantage, but only if there are no criticals on the normal side.

Above 2.5 Astra is an outright disadvantage. While it *might* allow a SM to kill an enemy they normally wouldn't have, it's relying on critical hits to do so or failing to prevent the counter. Once again, a similar critical on the non-Astra person would likely put the enemy out of commission unless you're flinging your swordsmaster against someone with so much health and DEF that they normally wouldn't kill, at which point you are either crazy or using some strategy depending on the SM NOT killing the enemy. After all, relying on a skill that maxes out at roughly a 12% activation rate to kill an enemy is just not good planning.

As I've brought up before: if conserving unique weapons is so important to you, Astra can help. Due to Astra and crits, Stefan has a high likelihood of ORKOing with conventional weaponry like Steel Blades. And when you really need the extra firepower (against bosses or really tough enemies), you can whip out a forge or +crit weapon.

So my solution to conserving unique weapons is to take them AWAY from the person who has Astra? Gee! Golly! That's... EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING! Don't give unique weapons to the people with Astra!

Swordmasters frequently come short of 2HKOing, so any skill that increases their likelihood of ORKOing when they don't 2HKO is valuable. Astra isn't a great skill, but it's better than half of this game's mastery skills and it's certainly better than nothing.

Because making it so that spending any unique or forge on an astra-using unit is going to chew through its uses is so much more helpful. Yup. I'd rather have Astra than a maxed out silver sword that I can use for two to four more rounds before losing ANY day!

[bottlegnomes]

A SM generally has about a 25% chance at critting at minimum, 29% chance at max. That means 71-75% chance of not. That means there's a 18-24% chance they won't crit any of the hits. That means Astra is a 76-82% chance of doing 3.5x damage, or 70% damage a weapon use. How is that not better than a minuscule chance of putting an enemy to sleep?

Edited August 5, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Snowy_One]

Because said chance of putting a weapon to sleep won't break my forges and uniques by random chance.

[aku chi]

For the astra it can go...

1) Normal - normal/critical kill

2) Critical kill

But what if I critical on the first strike? Well, sure. That's all well and dandy, but that only happens 3% of the time (a quarter of 12%),

...

The game doesn't work like this. Each hit evaluates crit independently. Astra results in 5 additional hits. If a Swordmaster has a 25% crit chance and activates Astra, that Swordmaster has a 25% chance of critting on each of Astra's five hits. So, if a Swordmaster can 2HKO an enemy, has a 25% crit chance, and activates Astra on the first attack:

Crit on the first hit 25% of the time.

Crit on the second hit 25% of the time.

Expend two weapon uses if either of these crits transpires (43.75% likelihood).

Crit on the third hit 25% of the time.

Expend three weapon uses if the third hit is the first crit (~14.06% likelihood).

Expend four weapon uses otherwise (~42.19% likelihood).

Resulting in an expected ~2.98 weapon uses (compared with 1.75 expected weapon uses without Astra).

But not all enemies die cleanly in 2 attacks, right? Well... Yea. But let's think this out.

I think it's pretty damn obvious that Astra doesn't help if one can 2HKO the target.

Above 2.5 Astra is an outright disadvantage.

Lies. Astra increase the likelihood of a ORKO. If a Swordmaster activates Astra in one hit, they will deal a minimum of 3.5 (x single-hit) damage (assuming, safely, that they double). But if Astra activates, the Swordmaster has 6 opportunities to crit. Consider our 25% crit Swordmaster. The likelihood of not critting in this case is a measly 17.8%. With a single crit, the Swordmaster will deal at least 4.5x damage.

As for Astra's activation rate, where are you getting this 12% number from? Stefan starts with a 14% activation rate and quickly reaches 15%. Consider a Stefan with 25% crit and a 15% Astra activation likelihood. Here is Stefan's expected damage (measured in multiples of normal single-hit damage):

Without Astra: 3

With Astra: ~3.68

Sometimes the extra damage isn't needed, sometimes it is.

So my solution to conserving unique weapons is to take them AWAY from the person who has Astra? Gee! Golly! That's... EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING! Don't give unique weapons to the people with Astra!

My point is that Stefan with Astra and a Steel Blade has a higher expected damage than with a forged Steel Sword but without Astra.

Because making it so that spending any unique or forge on an astra-using unit is going to chew through its uses is so much more helpful. Yup. I'd rather have Astra than a maxed out silver sword that I can use for two to four more rounds before losing ANY day!

I prefer ORKOing enemies to ending the game with a glorious inventory of forges and unique weapons, but I suppose our priorities differ.

Edited August 5, 2012 by aku chi

[CrashGordon94]

Who cares if Astra is detrimental or not? It still sucks either way and the other Skills combos are better.

[Anouleth]

Being useless > wasting 3 weapon uses to deal only .5 more damage than you would have done with a normal double (2.5 attacks worth vs. 2 attacks with the normal double).

Actually, you improve your damage by 1.5 attacks, since you still double. And there are other advantages to Astra: notably, that you can crit with it. Criticals are more reliable when you have many attacks, and often it will completely prevent a counter.

It also blows through weapon uses at a lightning pace. Forges, unique weapons, and whatever else will last noticeably less longer in the hands of an Astra wielder.

I tend to end up with a lot of leftover forges anyway. And part of the point of Astra is that you don't really need forges as much since it increases your chance to ORKO.

Plus, consider exactly what situation it's useful in. Namely, killing enemies that two attacks can't kill because you miss by ONLY a few HP, lucked out and got Astra to activate, but DIDN'T luck out and get a critical hit despite swordsmasters getting critical boosts.

Their base critical rate is usually only around 15-20%, which is hardly reliable at all.

[Snowy_One]

Who cares if Astra is detrimental or not? It still sucks either way and the other Skills combos are better.

I agree with that, but... I refuse to let Stefan-lovers worship Astra and claim it's a positive so blindly. I will back off though.

Actually, you improve your damage by 1.5 attacks, since you still double. And there are other advantages to Astra: notably, that you can crit with it. Criticals are more reliable when you have many attacks, and often it will completely prevent a counter.

I know you can critical with it. I factored in Astra critical hits into my last post.

I tend to end up with a lot of leftover forges anyway. And part of the point of Astra is that you don't really need forges as much since it increases your chance to ORKO.

Tier list players claim to desire efficiency, but then use Astra which is inefficient. They claim that it's unlikely for people like Ilyana or Mia to get forges, then claim that there are left over forges so Stefan can use Astra. I refuse to let such double standards stand.

Their base critical rate is usually only around 15-20%, which is hardly reliable at all.

Considering that they get +15% critical on promotion before we factor in skill, skills, and weapon bonuses, I am calling BS on this.

[bottlegnomes]

I agree with that, but... I refuse to let Stefan-lovers worship Astra and claim it's a positive so blindly. I will back off though.

Generally when you say you're going to back off you don't include a blanket insult and then procede to keep arguing.

I know you can critical with it. I factored in Astra critical hits into my last post.

And you somehow got that each hit has a 3% chance of critting, which I am beyond confused about.

Tier list players claim to desire efficiency, but then use Astra which is inefficient. They claim that it's unlikely for people like Ilyana or Mia to get forges, then claim that there are left over forges so Stefan can use Astra. I refuse to let such double standards stand.

They want to kill enemies efficiently and finish maps efficiently. They don't give a shit about weapon uses as those are merely means to finish the map. Astra raises the chances of killing an enemy, very valuable however somewhat unreliable, at the cost of some weapon uses, not valuable. I have never seen anyone argue that Mia and Ilyana can't get forges. I have, however, seen people say they shouldn't because they aren't good characters and aren't worth investing effort in when we could give the same effort to better characters for better results. I don't see any double standard there.

Considering that they get +15% critical on promotion before we factor in skill, skills, and weapon bonuses, I am calling BS on this.

Well from a quick glance, enemy luck ranges from 2-10, settling around 3-5 early on and 4-6 later on. The highest crit a SM can have is 29, so 27 with the lowest enemy luck. But generally, they'll have lower skill and be facing enemies with higher luck than 2. That range seems about right, but settling more in the high end.

Edited August 6, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Snowy_One]

And you somehow got that each hit has a 3% chance of critting, which I am beyond confused about.

12% chance of Astra activating, and a 25% chance of that first Astra hit being a critical. A quarter of 12% is 3%.

They want to kill enemies efficiently and finish maps efficiently. They don't give a shit about weapon uses as those are merely means to finish the map. Astra raises the chances of killing an enemy, very valuable however somewhat unreliable, at the cost of some weapon uses, not valuable. I have never seen anyone argue that Mia and Ilyana can't get forges. I have, however, seen people say they shouldn't because they aren't good characters and aren't worth investing effort in when we could give the same effort to better characters for better results. I don't see any double standard there.

I have seen it argued before, especially that giving out any forge that isn't an axe/hand axe forge is outright detrimental. You can claim Mia and Ilyana are bad all you want, but if you have the forges to waste on Astra, you have forges to waste on Mia and Ilyana and other such characters. If you don't have the forges to give them forged weapons, you don't have the forges to waste on Astra. It's as simple as that.

And, by the way, that's a LTC standard, which makes your list invalid for anyone not playing by LTC standards and inherently unreliable.

Well from a quick glance, enemy luck ranges from 2-10, settling around 3-5 early on and 4-6 later on. The highest crit a SM can have is 29, so 27 with the lowest enemy luck. But generally, they'll have lower skill and be facing enemies with higher luck than 2. That range seems about right, but settling more in the high end.

It seems a 20-25% range is more accurate actually. Not 15-20 or 25-30.

[Hawk King]

Snowy, no one ever says that Stefan and his Astra can get forges but Mia cannot get a forge. If anyone HAS ever said this then you are correct, it's terrible logic. If anything, people argue that Mia needs forges or unique weapons to compare to Stefan's damage output with common weapons.

If Astra activates you will do a minimum of 2.5x damage for that 1 attack with roughly an 80% chance of doing 3.5x and it has a potential to go up to 7.5x damage. Astra lets you do more damage. How can you say it is bad? Its not super good but its not bad.

The only detriment is that it consumes weapon uses faster. An Astra user should only have buyable weapons anyway so if anything Astra makes us spend more money. We get alot of that stuff in this game. Just keep your SM away from armor knights and you should be fine.