Gentlemen

[Knight]

The idea of more experience gained from using bows is not a bad idea, it's a hell of a lot of work to train archers.

[Renall]

make enemies threatening enough that the chip is legitimately useful

FE13 Lunatic+ skills.

Virion has shit bases and is still one of the best units in that mode.

I was going to jokingly say "make every mode Lunatic" but you guys already basically did so.

Otherwise yeah, just make them good from the start.

EDIT: To elaborate on CT075's point though, if enemies are more fixated on offensive stats than defensive ones then chip becomes extremely valuable. Enemies in FE13 on modes that aren't Normal have remarkably high single-hit damage for the series, so being able to say "Ayup, I'm gonna hit you and you aren't gonna hit back" is pretty nice. Of course Mages can do the same thing better, and J/HAs exist, but with a few additional tweaks I think you can make a go of it by making enemy design less tanky and more dangerous if allowed to attack things.

Silver Bow Sniper reinforcements to troll all your pegs and dracos is a nice touch too. Just make sure the player can do the same thing if they use their Archer/Sniper.

I also really like the idea of a Sniper Jeigan. Hell, you can basically do that in the DS games (and Shinon kinda counts).

Edited December 17, 2012 by Renall

[FrostyFireMage]

I was going to jokingly say "make every mode Lunatic" but you guys already basically did so.

Otherwise yeah, just make them good from the start.

EDIT: To elaborate on CT075's point though, if enemies are more fixated on offensive stats than defensive ones then chip becomes extremely valuable. Enemies in FE13 on modes that aren't Normal have remarkably high single-hit damage for the series, so being able to say "Ayup, I'm gonna hit you and you aren't gonna hit back" is pretty nice. Of course Mages can do the same thing better, and J/HAs exist, but with a few additional tweaks I think you can make a go of it by making enemy design less tanky and more dangerous if allowed to attack things.

Silver Bow Sniper reinforcements to troll all your pegs and dracos is a nice touch too. Just make sure the player can do the same thing if they use their Archer/Sniper.

I also really like the idea of a Sniper Jeigan. Hell, you can basically do that in the DS games (and Shinon kinda counts).

Yeah...the strengths of archers and snipers are made moot when the game's idea of difficulty is swamping your units with weak reinforcements on enemy phase who paper cut and crit your army to death.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Frosty Fire Mage

[redturtle806]

What if they got some bonus exp for completely dodging an attack? Not a whole bunch but maybe 5-7exp or so. If they get hit they would still just get the 1 point.

[Integrity]

I don't see how rewarding the player for getting a unit who can't counter attacked is a good thing at all.

[Icon of Sin]

Give them a Razorback to prevent one melee attack.

They need to go back to the convoy to get another one though.

More seriously, higher base strength/speed would be appreciated. I don't get how FE13 gave Snipers so much defense when they hardly need that much.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Dio

[Excellen Browning]

give them swords or daggers on promotion because that's historically accurate?

[Integrity]

give them swords or daggers on promotion because that's historically accurate?

Nah, dude. Mallets. Imagine the pure swag.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Integrity

[Elieson]

What about the idea that an archer lays traps out, and in an order to prevent the enemy from reaching them, possesses an ability that reduces damage from 1-range combat by 25% and also damages the attacking unit by said 25% (or, instead of 25%, the equivalent of the MAG stat)?

[Othin]

Mind elaborating on that for those of us who haven't played weeb copies of Waifu Emblem? I'm really curious.

All Lunatic+ enemies get two random skills from a pool of seven. Three of them are especially relevant here: Counter, Great Shield+, and Vantage+. All three of them screw up melee combat somehow, and on average, about 71% of enemies should have one or more of the three. That's a lot.

Vantage+ is the tamest, letting the user attack first in all battles. This of course prevents avoiding the incredibly powerful counterattack even on a finishing blow, unless you attack from a range they can't reach. Of course, most enemies are melee-locked, so Archers can get around this with their ranged attacks. And for 1-2 range attacks, only Archers and Snipers can use Longbows to avoid the counter.

Great Shield+ is more specific, halving all damage taken from a sword, lance, axe, or beaststone. Killing enemies slowly through this sort of armor is incredibly problematic, so it's best to have some sort of ranged attack to pierce it. Magic and dragonstones are also options, but Manakete really aren't practical to use on the highest difficulty levels. MU makes a great mage, but he/she can't be everywhere at once; it's useful to have someone else as backup. Furthermore, mages are limited to hitting Res, so while they're especially useful for killing more physically-oriented enemies with Great Shield+, they're quite ineffective at killing Mages and Dark Mages with the same skill, making bows the only weapon type able to deal full damage to them. It's worth noting that Holy Shield+ has the complementary effect, but effective melee fighters who can bypass it aren't nearly as rare as effective ranged fighters able to bypass its physical counterpart.

Counter plays a similar role to Great Shield+, but it's much more deadly, returning all nonfatal damage taken in melee. Enemies with Counter need to be taken care of immediately, being able to attack on the enemy phase and trigger counterattacks which they can instantly return for full damage, obliterating allies in a single round. Allies with melee weapons can get around it with thrown weapons, but those are typically not so effective, and enemies with Counter present such a big threat that you need to be extremely prepared to deal with them fast, wherever they show up. Even more so than with Great Shield+, bows are the only good way to take down high-Res Counter enemies. Against enemies with Great Shield+, you can do some chipping with physical attacks that have pitiful damage yet still wear down the enemy, but with Counter, you need to immediately have either a volley of ranged attacks at the ready or some character ready to take huge damage in the process of putting the enemy in range of the finishing blow.

There's also some more general stuff. Fliers are a big threat, capable of causing a ton of trouble, especially when they have fancy skills, which they all do. The effective bonus against them is a huge boon; Steel Bows for example have 27 effective Mt, compared to Arcwind with its 18 effective Mt, which also takes longer to become available.

Virion also has things easier in being able to hog all the best bows for himself. He has literally no competition until Basilio shows up at the end of the game, and Basilio can't even use Longbows. Noire is absurdly far behind, and reclassed units aren't going to be picking up any new weapon type here, especially bows. The only DLC unit with bows is Eirika, and she's not likely to join any sooner than Basilio if you go for her. I guess you could bring up SpotPass units? That is, if you want to fight a Lunatic-boosted version of the same character you're trying to recruit, alongside their insane lackeys. Seems to me that by the time you can recruit any of them, you should have an even stronger Virion.

And speaking of SpotPass, it, alongside Fame bonuses, makes that pool of best bows a large one indeed if you go for them. The Fame bonuses can hand you a free early Longbow for quite reasonable amounts of points, as well as Innes' Surebow and Parthia. Meanwhile, SpotPass nets you Astra, Nidhogg, and the Double Bow. All of these give Virion some fantastic exclusive options to smash stuff with from the start and throughout the game. He's no Chrom, MU, or Frederick, but he's one of the few other characters who doesn't have to make do with their scraps, and I'd say he belongs right behind them in any Lunatic+ ranking.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Othin

[Integrity]

Interesting. Cheers for that, dude.

[Knight]

Or perhaps we give them Link's bomb arrows?

Anyway, they do need an experience increase and/or 2-3 range.

[Integrity]

I'd say Othin's elaboration pretty well showed that they *don't* need either of those things necessarily.

[Elieson]

How do we fix archers?

Or perhaps we give them Link's bomb arrows?

Anyway, they do need an experience increase and/or 2-3 range.

I'd say Othin's elaboration pretty well showed that they *don't* need either of those things necessarily in FE13 Lunatic modes.

Fix'd

Edited December 17, 2012 by Elieson

[Rehab]

Give then overwatch

I don't even care if it'd be broke I need to see what it would look like in a FE game before I die

[Integrity]

Fix'd

Because I was literally saying that "the way it worked in fe13 lunatic is the way it should always be." Yeah.

[Anouleth]

I'd say Othin's elaboration pretty well showed that they *don't* need either of those things necessarily.

Just because Virion is good doesn't mean that Archer is a good class. He implied that it was basically impossible for anyone else to hack it as a bow user: I can only assume this is because the hurdle of starting with Bronze Bow is too great for any character in the game to overcome. Which, I suppose, is a symptom of the reclass system that makes it very difficult to switch classes.

[Integrity]

Just because Virion is good doesn't mean that Archer is a good class. He implied that it was basically impossible for anyone else to hack it as a bow user: I can only assume this is because the hurdle of starting with Bronze Bow is too great for any character in the game to overcome. Which, I suppose, is a symptom of the reclass system that makes it very difficult to switch classes.

It doesn't but it does show that Archers can be made useful without giving them A: an experience boost or B: inherent 2-3range, which is what I was responding directly to.

EDIT: Perhaps I should say Archer, singular.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Integrity

[Espinosa]

Archers don't need to be fixed. The maps should be modified in such a way that using bows would be beneficial without slowing down. FE6 is one such game, e.g. chapter 12 where Klein has superior enemy phase to the rest of the units (unless you slowed down to train and promote Shin). With less enemy density and more arrow-weak units, the necessity for a bow user becomes stronger (FE12 comes to mind).

Also, it doesn't seem like Virion is the only available Archer. If it is indeed the way Othin describes it, an additional bow user would only benefit the party. Bow Knight!Grego seems like one such candidate. Hard Mode bonuses, higher attack than Virion, great movement as Bow Knight, and can be promoted instantly (theoryFEing here; forgot what the availability of and competition for of Master Seal items was) since he joins at 10/0. Also, a forged +6 Bronze Bow has the same Might but more accuracy and a lot more uses than a Steel Bow. That's probably an expensive investment, but don't forget that Grego is a former Merc and therefore comes with Weapon Saver, which makes the forge last until he no longer has any need for it. You could pass it over to other units who need to train in bows weapon rank.

Also, Sol comes with Discipline and can reclass into Archer, progressing in rank very swiftly thanks to his Cav skill.

[Anouleth]

Archers don't need to be fixed. The maps should be modified in such a way that using bows would be beneficial without slowing down. FE6 is one such game, e.g. chapter 12 where Klein has superior enemy phase to the rest of the units (unless you slowed down to train and promote Shin). With less enemy density and more arrow-weak units, the necessity for a bow user becomes stronger (FE12 comes to mind).

Even if Shin isn't promoted yet, he's still quite good in Chapter 12. Sue can also be useful, as can Bartre (Bartre with an Iron Bow is statistically identical to Klein with Silver, except for less speed and more durability).

[Othin]

Just because Virion is good doesn't mean that Archer is a good class. He implied that it was basically impossible for anyone else to hack it as a bow user: I can only assume this is because the hurdle of starting with Bronze Bow is too great for any character in the game to overcome. Which, I suppose, is a symptom of the reclass system that makes it very difficult to switch classes.

Virion is great purely because of the merits of the Archer class.

Reclass is fun, but it's generally impractical for ingame purposes, especially on the higher difficulties. It's best to think of FE13 as primarily a game where characters stay in their starting class trees. The lack of other viable archers is simply a result of a lack of characters in bow-using classes: only three of them, with only one joining before late in the game and one of the other two still joining unpromoted.

Also, it doesn't seem like Virion is the only available Archer. If it is indeed the way Othin describes it, an additional bow user would only benefit the party. Bow Knight!Grego seems like one such candidate. Hard Mode bonuses, higher attack than Virion, great movement as Bow Knight, and can be promoted instantly (theoryFEing here; forgot what the availability of and competition for of Master Seal items was) since he joins at 10/0. Also, a forged +6 Bronze Bow has the same Might but more accuracy and a lot more uses than a Steel Bow. That's probably an expensive investment, but don't forget that Grego is a former Merc and therefore comes with Weapon Saver, which makes the forge last until he no longer has any need for it. You could pass it over to other units who need to train in bows weapon rank.

Also, Sol comes with Discipline and can reclass into Archer, progressing in rank very swiftly thanks to his Cav skill.

Not happening. Not on Lunatic, and sure as hell not on Lunatic+.

[Elieson]

Virion is great purely because of the merits of the Archer class.

Compared to reclassing, what are the overwhelming benefits of a natural Archer (aside from W-Rank of course)?

[Othin]

Compared to reclassing, what are the overwhelming benefits of a natural Archer (aside from W-Rank of course)?

Weapon rank means Virion can use 13 Mt Silver Bows when any other character is first gaining access to 3 Mt Bronze Bows. There's really nothing else you need.

He's also promoted with all his promotion gains when characters reclassing to Archer are still 10 levels away and they'd probably be incompetent even with them. Granted, this doesn't apply to Bow Knight, Warrior, or Assassin promotions.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Othin

[Espinosa]

Othin, how about a bow-using MU? In fact, what options are even reasonably feasible for MU on higher difficulties besides that of the party's premiere mage? Is Girl MU copying Sarya but with higher AS pretty much the most desirable fruit to go for?

Even if Shin isn't promoted yet, he's still quite good in Chapter 12. Sue can also be useful, as can Bartre (Bartre with an Iron Bow is statistically identical to Klein with Silver, except for less speed and more durability).

Shin is better than unpromoted Cavs with their lances but won't ORKO the archers behind the walls since he's not getting to C bows until chapter 12. For Sue, C bows is possible (if you've been using her seriously she might even be promoted by this point, but most would wait for more good growths to kick in), and with a Killer she's doubling and has a good chance of one-rounding the archers. Everybody should be 2HKOing Shamans with Steel though. Bartre has 3 res so you'll need to have a Restore user with you on the left hand side of the map because he'll most likely be top candidate for Sleep priests. Low resistance also makes engaging Shamans painful, but with 48 HP he can take a couple and not mind it much. No doubling of anybody though.

Klein, on the other hand, doubles everybody behind the walls assuming 13 not 12 AS (you never know with the HM bonuses), can take hits of all kinds, does not need Restore!Saul following him around and ORKOs with Killer without even having to proc a crit. 6 move, though, but there's rescuedrop.

[Othin]

Othin, how about a bow-using MU? In fact, what options are even reasonably feasible for MU on higher difficulties besides that of the party's premiere mage? Is Girl MU copying Sarya but with higher AS pretty much the most desirable fruit to go for?

Making MU not be a mage is something to do if you want to not complete Lunatic.

My preferred progression is to stick with Grandmaster until learning Rainbow Cry. I guess you could go Sorcerer for Nosferatuspam, but that sounds boring.