Promotions and Class Changes

[Col_Mobius]

Is there any kind of consensus about the best way to do promotions and/or class changes?

Since there are unlimited levels and skills are tied to levels, it seems to me that waiting until 20 to promote is no longer obviously the dominant choice. But the internal level thing makes me wonder if promoting at 10 is good or bad.

And none of this takes into account class changes. When is the best time I work those into a unit's development plan?

Sorry if this is a repeat topic.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

since when promoting at 20 has been the best option?

[Fruity Insanity]

Is there any kind of consensus about the best way to do promotions and/or class changes?

Since there are unlimited levels and skills are tied to levels, it seems to me that waiting until 20 to promote is no longer obviously the dominant choice. But the internal level thing makes me wonder if promoting at 10 is good or bad.

And none of this takes into account class changes. When is the best time I work those into a unit's development plan?

Sorry if this is a repeat topic.

I've never played the game before, but... I can make a guess.

If the experience system is anything like the other games, then being promotes receive less experience than the pre-promotes, making it harder to level up. Promoting early, however, gives you those stat buffs, which can be important at times. Like I said, I don't know, but... I guess it depends on the situation.

since when promoting at 20 has been the best option?

Dunno? Since you couldn't reclass characters into more basic units?

(I'm not sure. I'm only familiar with the last 6 FE games... except for PoR. I have yet to see it. Oh, and Awakening...)

[Deshiva]

Personally I consider one main benefit of classes to be their learnable skills now, and you want as many of them as soon as you can. So i'll personally be promoting at 10 then reclassing at tier 2 15.

Stats will eventually max out wichever way you go anyhow, so it might be a bad idea to tank on even more internal levels and slow down your leveling before you gained the skills you want.

But that doesn't mean you go wrong doing the opposite and just maxing out before promoting, you'll probably have an easier time in battles if you max out. But on the other hand i will be blossoming with some wicked skills later on when the maxer will be slowly gaining his.

TLDR version.

If you care about getting as many skills as quickly as possible, promote and reclass as early as you can. Stats take care of themselves with time.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Deshiva

[Just call me AL]

I've never played the game before, but... I can make a guess.

If the experience system is anything like the other games, then being promotes receive less experience than the pre-promotes, making it harder to level up. Promoting early, however, gives you those stat buffs, which can be important at times. Like I said, I don't know, but... I guess it depends on the situation.

There's also the fact that reclassed units receive less EXP than regular units. Mainly because of a hidden value that builds up by half of the unit's levels every time he or she reclasses. (Said value, however, has different caps for different difficulties.)

Dunno? Since you couldn't reclass characters into more basic units?

(I'm not sure. I'm only familiar with the last 6 FE games... except for PoR. I have yet to see it. Oh, and Awakening...)

He's referring to the fact that the idea that "level 20 is the best time to promote" is a very widespread fallacy. (As in you wouldn't many people outside of FE boards that would suggest to promote as quickly as possible, or in the case of the GBA games, suggest to wait until certain units reach around the mid-teen levels if not ASAP.) There wouldn't be much, if anything at all, that would warrant a promotion at level 20, and doing so would ultimately only matter on something like Link Arena, and Multiplayer Wi-fi. (It's very safe to assume that not a lot of people care about either of the two, to say the least.) PoR was mostly an exception to this, but that's largely because Promotion Items were hard to come by in that game. FE4 was another exception, but that's because of promotion mechanics. Edited January 7, 2013 by Little Al

[Fruity Insanity]

There's also the fact that reclassed units receive less EXP than regular units. Mainly because of a hidden value that builds up by half of the unit's levels every time he or she reclasses. (Said value, however, has different caps for different difficulties.)

He's referring to the fact that the idea that "level 20 is the best time to promote" is a very widespread fallacy. (As in you wouldn't many people outside of FE boards that would suggest to promote as quickly as possible, or in the case of the GBA games, suggest to wait until certain units reach around the mid-teen levels if not ASAP.) There wouldn't be much, if anything at all, that would warrant a promotion at level 20, and doing so would ultimately only matter on something like Link Arena, and Multiplayer Wi-fi. (It's very safe to assume that not a lot of people care about either of the two, to say the least.) PoR was mostly an exception to this, but that's largely because Promotion Items were hard to come by in that game. FE4 was another exception, but that's because of promotion mechanics.

Cool, I never knew that reclassed units received less EXP... or not cool? That's not good. It makes it harder to train, doesn't it?

And oh, I always promoted my units at lvl 20... and thought that those extra stats helped, especially on the harder difficulties. Guess not...?

[Deshiva]

1357584180[/url]' post='2240666']

Cool, I never knew that reclassed units received less EXP... or not cool? That's not good. It makes it harder to train, doesn't it?

And oh, I always promoted my units at lvl 20... and thought that those extra stats helped, especially on the harder difficulties. Guess not...?

The max internal levels are still limited, how much depends on difficulty. Plus there are a couple hardcaps you can't gain less than

Edited January 7, 2013 by Deshiva

[Just call me AL]

Cool, I never knew that reclassed units received less EXP... or not cool? That's not good. It makes it harder to train, doesn't it?

Like someone else said, the internal levels have caps, and those caps depend on difficulty. 20 for normal, 70 for lunatic if I remember correctly. But if you're really worried that much about EXP, there's always the infinite EXP DLC.

And oh, I always promoted my units at lvl 20... and thought that those extra stats helped, especially on the harder difficulties. Guess not...?

Like I said, there's usually not much call for level 20 promotions. Player unit stats and growths, relative to enemy stats, are generally high enough that a level 10 promotion can do just fine. Heck, even against some final bosses, those "extra stats", as you call them, are entirely optional. Not to mention, there's at least one FE that actively recommends against level 20 promotions on its hardest difficulty because of how strong the enemies are on said difficulty.

[Fruity Insanity]

Like someone else said, the internal levels have caps, and those caps depend on difficulty. 20 for normal, 70 for lunatic if I remember correctly. But if you're really worried that much about EXP, there's always the infinite EXP DLC.

Like I said, there's usually not much call for level 20 promotions. Player unit stats and growths, relative to enemy stats, are generally high enough that a level 10 promotion can do just fine. Heck, even against some final bosses, those "extra stats", as you call them, are entirely optional. Not to mention, there's at least one FE that actively recommends against level 20 promotions on its hardest difficulty because of how strong the enemies are on said difficulty.

The only early promotion that comes to mind is Catria or Palla before chapter 7 in Shin Monshou no Nazo... (in Lunatic and Lunatic' modes).

And about "internal level caps"... I have no idea about internal game coding... or about the mechanics of the game. I just know the simple calculations, like crit, avoid, hit, weight, and stuff like that... sorry. :(

Edited January 7, 2013 by fireemblemfan4ever

[Sock]

Here are two informative posts to consider:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33640&st=700&p=2169649entry2169649

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33640&st=700&p=2169661entry2169661

It depends what you want for your units. A little bit better exp gain, or a little stronger in stats. And which skills would benefit a certain unit more.

[Col_Mobius]

Okay, so what I think I'm learning is that there's no point in staying in a class that isn't learning skills.

So... Which is the superior choice? Promote first and then go back to unprompted classes later, or class change first and deal with promotions later? Feel free to tease out any nuances that my question is missing.

[Othin]

There is no legitimate general answer to this. It's just a matter of weighing advantages and disadvantages.

[Deshiva]

1357590766[/url]' post='2240777']

Okay, so what I think I'm learning is that there's no point in staying in a class that isn't learning skills.

So... Which is the superior choice? Promote first and then go back to unprompted classes later, or class change first and deal with promotions later? Feel free to tease out any nuances that my question is missing.

In general the promoted classes have the more powerful skills, but it's down to opinion. No superior choice i guess

[Col_Mobius]

What are other people planning to do? Even if there's no right answer, it might be fun to hear some people's thoughts/reasons.

[XeKr]

Promotion gains are huge in this game, so personally unless there's a class with skills I want or I want to go to another class path quickly (easier to go 1-10 unpromo than promoted), in general I'd promote first.

Edited January 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Lennark]

I have a question that probably fits well enough in this topic.

I want Olivia to pass down Lightning Speed. What is the more efficient way to get her to level 15 Dark Pegasus. Change her to Pegasus Knight ASAP, then get to 10 and promote... or get her to whatever level she needs to be to change to Dark Pegasus from Dancer, and go from there? Admittedly I don't know at what levels you can class change to unpromoted and promoted classes from classes with 30 levels.

[Sock]

lv30 in "special" classes

So it's either lv10->lv10->lv15 (or lv15->lv10->lv15 if you want the lv15 dancer skill) or lv30->lv15.

Remember the internal levels, though. Excuse me while I go refresh my memory on internal levels.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Tsamimi

[Sky Soldier]

I have a question that probably fits well enough in this topic.

I want Olivia to pass down Lightning Speed. What is the more efficient way to get her to level 15 Dark Pegasus. Change her to Pegasus Knight ASAP, then get to 10 and promote... or get her to whatever level she needs to be to change to Dark Pegasus from Dancer, and go from there? Admittedly I don't know at what levels you can class change to unpromoted and promoted classes from classes with 30 levels.

Just going by Exp. calculations alone, it would be more efficient to change into P. Knight first.

Olivia would have to be level 30 in order to change directly to a Dark Pegasus from a Dancer. She can change to a Pegasus Knight as a lv. 10 Dancer. If you change right at lv. 10, she would have 10 levels saved up (or 9, I'm not sure there). She would be gaining experience when she is a lv. 1 Pegasus Knight as if she were a lv. 6 unit (saved levels divided by 2 is added on in the calculation), so the reduction in exp. is not really that significant yet.

Also keep in mind what happens when she is a Dark Pegasus. She would have 30 levels saved up if she came directly from Dancer, so she would start as if she was a lv. 15-16 promoted unit. From P. Knight, she would only add on the five from the Dancer (the lower tier levels don't get added on when using a Master Seal, only a Change Seal). All around, she gains more exp. when going to P. Knight first.

But, as Othin said, this really depends on the character. For instance, if you wanted to do the same thing with Liz or Mariabel to get Lightning Speed on Wood and Brady, you have to deal with the fact that they have pitiful strength and would be a lot harder to level up as Pegasus Knights which rely on Strength alone.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Sky Soldier

[arvilino]

What are other people planning to do? Even if there's no right answer, it might be fun to hear some people's thoughts/reasons.

Whenever it's most suitable for the character to promote. For example I always promote MU and Tiamo as soon as possible since they'll start levelling toward learning Rainbow Cry and Speed Cry sooner.

Though on the other hand if I use Velvet I reclass her to Dracoknight at level 10 and then use her to whenever(usually from lv.1 Dracoknight to the high 10's) because she's good enough that she performs extremely well as a Dracoknight and will gain levels much quickly than if promoted(which works well with her high growth rates).

It's different for each character and specific scenario(e.g. difficulty mode), like Othin said it's weighing advantages and disadvantages.

[Lennark]

Olivia would have to be level 30 in order to change directly to a Dark Pegasus. Since she can change to a Pegasus Knight as a lv. 10 Dancer, it would be much easier to change into P. Knight first. If you change right at lv. 10, she would have 10 levels saved up and so would be gaining experience when she is a lv. 1 Pegasus Knight as if she were a lv. 6 unit (saved levels divided by 2 is added on), so the reduction in exp. is not really significant yet. As a Dark Pegasus, she would have 30 levels saved up if coming directly from Dancer, so she would start as if she was a lv. 15-16 unit. From P. Knight, she would only add on the five from the Dancer (the lower tier levels don't get added on when using a Master Seal, only a Change Seal). All around, she gains more exp. when going to P. Knight first.

Thanks. I'll probably go Dancer > Pegasus Knight > Dark Pegasus then. Although... it also depends on how many change seals I have around/up to that point. She's not the only one that will need to use them to get the skill I want to pass on.